Phantom Knight will protect her from now on ^^

[Katy Parry]

If I recall well, Zelda uses her right hand upon realeasing an AT, and her arm is totally extended, wich is not on the two ssb4 screens.
It's either this or the din's fire realease, as I posted above. I can't see anything else, if the phantom is an assist of course.

Also there can't be multiple AT on screen in brawl, so it's a bit strange for her to have the assist pose WITH the phantom attacking (it seems like he appeared for a while on the screen)

Well as I've cleary pointed out in another thread, this was wrong as well. Zelda raises her left arm, not her right. Which matches up perfectly with both screenshots.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Well as I've cleary pointed out in another thread, this was wrong as well. Zelda raises her left arm, not her right. Which matches up perfectly with both screenshots.

Second time you quote that post And it's an "old" post.

By the way, there's is minor differences for both poses. AT pose got the arm and head, but Din's fire poses got the body right.

 

[Katy Parry]

Second time you quote that post And it's an "old" post.

By the way, there's is minor differences for both poses. AT pose got the arm and head, but Din's fire poses got the body right.

The AT pose has the arm, head, HANDS, and body. Din's Fire just looks similar because you stopped the spell mid animation. I doubt Sakurai cast Din's Fire in both pictures and paused it perfectly just to take those screenshots. I'm sure he has the AT animation revamped and placed to a taunt or button.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

And what if the Din's Fire is the one revamped?

I'll post the screens again:

Spoiler: TA pose

Spoiler: Din's fire release

Spoiler: SSB4 screen

Just look at the dress movement. Also, (not sure how to say it) the body is "rotated forward", something the AT pose lack, but happen during din's fire pose.

Both can be revamped. And both can't be ruled out. And it's not hard to take a pose. There's a lot of screens with precise posing and timing.

 

[SmashShadow]

I'm still not sold on the Phantom being an assist trophy yet. We have a vague pose that is shown twice that looks to reference Sheik but doesn't actually show any signs of being the transformation, although this could just be the fact that she's not finished yet and he hasn't connected the two characters yet. We also see Zelda making the pose in the phantom photo not once but two times. That would be pretty coincidental if this animation that nobody seems to be able to pinpoint is captured twice in a picture especially one showing a phantom (the same design as the one connected to her in Spirit Tracks) attacking. Assist trophies don't begin to act the second they are summoned and I have a hard time believing Sakurai would make them act quicker than Zelda could end an animation for using it. And let us also not forget that all of Zelda's taunts have yet to be revealed. There are still way too many unknowns.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I'm still not sold on the Phantom being an assist trophy yet. We have a vague pose that is shown twice that looks to reference Sheik but doesn't actually show any signs of being the transformation, although this could just be the fact that she's not finished yet and he hasn't connected the two characters yet. We also see Zelda making the pose in the phantom photo not once but two times. That would be pretty coincidental if this animation that nobody seems to be able to pinpoint is captured twice in a picture especially one showing a phantom (the same design as the one connected to her in Spirit Tracks) attacking. Assist trophies don't begin to act the second they are summoned and I have a hard time believing Sakurai would make them act quicker than Zelda could end an animation for using it. And let us also not forget that all of Zelda's taunts have yet to be revealed. There are still way too many unknowns.

And that's why I prefer the idea of din's fire release (revamped).

But I don't rule out the AT pose possibility. Sakurai already show screenshots of characters doing things they don't do in battle. Also, I remind again that there's is Brawl trailer from E3 2007 that shows Zelda doing her entrance with Link doing his taunt, something you can't do ingame.

Spoiler

Also, this Snake's grab? I'm not sure about it, it's either to perfect to be in game OR really perfectly done.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I never said Side B. I said Down B.

Andross is a different example. Phantom would be an AT that walks on stage like a character, with it's own AI. And most likely, if Phantom is an attack, it would act the same way. Might or not be with posession like in Spirit Tracks via Down B, and thus become playable. There's no clear fact either way or another. It's pure speculation till the Phantom's role is revealed.

 

[Katy Parry]

I never said Side B. I said Down B.

Andross is a different example. Phantom would be an AT that walks on stage like a character, with it's own AI. And most likely, if Phantom is an attack, it would act the same way. Might or not be with posession like in Spirit Tracks via Down B, and thus become playable. There's no clear fact either way or another. It's pure speculation till the Phantom's role is revealed.

Okay. My mistake. You were wrong about Pit's Down B then, as it was shown in the developer direct.

 

[Player -0]

It could just be a revamped F-Smash, what's the pose of @ Erotic&Heretic 's avi for?

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Wait, the Phantom?

It can't be a forward Smash. The good old Forward Smash has been shown twice:

Spoiler

The image gallery if you missed it: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=96586646&postcount=6127 (some images missing, like the 3DS one)

Edit: TOTALLY missed the point of your post. My avatar? Actually we only know it's a cool pose. It's probably a revamped transform move. But we don't know yet.

 

[Player -0]

Alright, that was my first guess anyway.

You got the point of my post, was asking what the pose was for and saying it could be a new F-Smash.

 

[Big-Cat]

I swear, the attachment to Sheik is overwhelming here. Anyway, I'm gonna tackle this under the assumption that the Phantom Knight is her new Down B and how it might work.

Using Down B, Zelda summons a Phantom Knight to her side. Doing Down B again and holding B will allow the Phantom Knight to move. Like possibly Luma with Rosalina, you may be able to keep Zelda stationary by using the down-forward and down-back inputs so the Phantom Knight can move on its own. By releasing B, we have Smash's first ever instance of Negative Edge. Zelda will order the Phantom Knight to strike.

The above theory would explain why Zelda does that same pose in one screenshot with it and without it in another - the Phantom Knight is simply off screen. Meanwhile, the AT summoning pose and this one are very different in body position. While it is possible that the pose may have been redone. Nothing necessarily suggests one way or the other.

As for an additional theory, Din's Fire has been revamped to where the fireball (or possibly more) do not explode automatically. Rather, you set it/them and trigger their explosion using her side taunt which just so happens to feature a fireball in her hands.

These two theories would allow Zelda to have that much needed zoning capability she has been so desperately needs with some influences from Carl Clover and Mu-12 of BlazBlue fame - because Rosalina is totally a Smash version of Guilty Gear's Eddie.

EDIT: Holy Shinto! What if Zelda's Jojo pose is her controlling the Phantom Knight?! Look at the pose and then then the pose with the PN striking:

Judging by the pictures, it would be easy for Zelda to transition from those two poses seamlessly.

 

[Katy Parry]

I swear, the attachment to Sheik is overwhelming here. Anyway, I'm gonna tackle this under the assumption that the Phantom Knight is her new Down B and how it might work.

Using Down B, Zelda summons a Phantom Knight to her side. Doing Down B again and holding B will allow the Phantom Knight to move. Like possibly Luma with Rosalina, you may be able to keep Zelda stationary by using the down-forward and down-back inputs so the Phantom Knight can move on its own. By releasing B, we have Smash's first ever instance of Negative Edge. Zelda will order the Phantom Knight to strike.

The above theory would explain why Zelda does that same pose in one screenshot with it and without it in another - the Phantom Knight is simply off screen. Meanwhile, the AT summoning pose and this one are very different in body position. While it is possible that the pose may have been redone. Nothing necessarily suggests one way or the other.

As for an additional theory, Din's Fire has been revamped to where the fireball (or possibly more) do not explode automatically. Rather, you set it/them and trigger their explosion using her side taunt which just so happens to feature a fireball in her hands.

These two theories would allow Zelda to have that much needed zoning capability she has been so desperately needs with some influences from Carl Clover and Mu-12 of BlazBlue fame - because Rosalina is totally a Smash version of Guilty Gear's Eddie.

EDIT: Holy Shinto! What if Zelda's Jojo pose is her controlling the Phantom Knight?! Look at the pose and then then the pose with the PN striking:

Judging by the pictures, it would be easy for Zelda to transition from those two poses seamlessly.

Lol...just...no...i surely hope youve gone through and read each individual and thorough point that has been make regarding Sheik's return as her special.

Just like before Brawl, people SWORE shed have a new Down B. Light arrows, light beam, young zelda, ive heard it all. And yet, Sheik remained.

What your stating is entire speculation from your own part, with nothing to back up as to how this change would come to pass. Youre borrowing ideas from PSAs and P:M.

Moving on.

 

[Sharkarat]

Just like before Brawl, people SWORE shed have a new Down B. Light arrows, light beam, young zelda, ive heard it all. And yet, Sheik remained.

Did we see any of those before Sheik?

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Using Down B, Zelda summons a Phantom Knight to her side. Doing Down B again and holding B will allow the Phantom Knight to move. Like possibly Luma with Rosalina, you may be able to keep Zelda stationary by using the down-forward and down-back inputs so the Phantom Knight can move on its own. By releasing B, we have Smash's first ever instance of Negative Edge. Zelda will order the Phantom Knight to strike.

As I already said, holding B to move the phantom seems really a bad idea to me. It leaves Zelda really vulnerable, althought it can be very short. And having the obligation to command the phantom to strike seems to be really laborious.

 

[Big-Cat]

That's the thing though. It's not something you just toss out. You could use it as a means of sandwiching the opponent between them.

And if it leaves her vulnerable, then what about Din's Fire?

 

[Katy Parry]

Did we see any of those before Sheik?

That doesn't matter. Based on your logic, Peach's new down B is pikmin throw.

The Phantom would only make sense with a Toon Zelda, because its from Toon Link's world. Its an AT based on Toon Link's games.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

That's the thing though. It's not something you just toss out. You could use it as a means of sandwiching the opponent between them.

And if it leaves her vulnerable, then what about Din's Fire?

I don't think we need two moves that makes her vulnerable. Plus, the use is different.

 

[Sharkarat]

That doesn't matter.

Yes it does. the difference is if there's a reason to believe she have changed or not.

Based on your logic, Peach's new down B is pikmin throw.
The Phantom would only make sense with a Toon Zelda, because its from Toon Link's world. Its an AT based on Toon Link's games.

I've explained earlier that we don't know how seperated sakurai think the normal and toon variant is. This argument is opinion. And depending on viewpoint makes that Peach+Pikmin comparision either good or stupid.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I actually never really looked at it in Kuma's way, but it truely does make sence.

 

[Katy Parry]

I actually never really looked at it in Kuma's way, but it truely does make sence.

The word is "sense".

Yes it does. the difference is if there's a reason to believe she have changed or not.
I've explained earlier that we don't know how seperated sakurai think the normal and toon variant is. This argument is opinion. And depending on viewpoint makes that Peach+Pikmin comparision either good or stupid.

How do we not know how seperated they are? Is the fact to on Link has a different appearance, items, stage, move properties, that all tie into the fact that he is treated as a seperate entity.

 

[Frostwraith]

Team Sheik: Down B is Sheik! She returns.
Team anti-Sheik: Down B is Phantom! No Sheik!

This thread in a nutshell.

 

[Morbi]

Team Sheik: Down B is Sheik! She returns.
Team anti-Sheik: Down B is Phantom! No Sheik!

This thread in a nutshell.

Not necessarily. I am on neither team, I just think that Phantom is a part of Zelda's move-set and that Sheik returns. That isn't to say that I wouldn't like to see Impa replace Sheik, but I don't see it happening.

 

[Sharkarat]

How do we not know how seperated they are? Is the fact to on Link has a different appearance, items, stage, move properties, that all tie into the fact that he is treated as a seperate entity.

Didn't Young link have it similar ind melee, and he's was the exact same character as the older Link.
The problem with really comparing them is that Link & Toon Link pretty much share moveset and moveset potential, you would never need to mix things between them for an all-encompassing moveset. Toon Zelda & Non-toon Zelda aren't as equal in potential, and for an all-encompassing Zelda you would need to mix. We don't know if Sakurai would go for a "Full" Zelda or two different Zelda.

 

[Morbi]

Didn't Young link have it similar ind melee, and he's was the exact same character as the older Link.
The problem with really comparing them is that Link & Toon Link pretty much share moveset and moveset potential, you would never need to mix things between them for an all-encompassing moveset. Toon Zelda & Non-toon Zelda aren't as equal in potential, and for an all-encompassing Zelda you would need to mix. We don't know if Sakurai would go for a "Full" Zelda or two different Zelda.

We do; however, know that he was quite interested in the notion of Toon Zelda prior to Smash 4. Take that as you will, but I believe that this has something to do with his obsession.

 

[Big-Cat]

Didn't Young link have it similar ind melee, and he's was the exact same character as the older Link.
The problem with really comparing them is that Link & Toon Link pretty much share moveset and moveset potential, you would never need to mix things between them for an all-encompassing moveset. Toon Zelda & Non-toon Zelda aren't as equal in potential, and for an all-encompassing Zelda you would need to mix. We don't know if Sakurai would go for a "Full" Zelda or two different Zelda.

Don't forget that Link has a wide, wide variety of tools to use in the series. Zelda does not. While Sakurai gave the Links similar LOOKING attacks, the Zelda games feature either a child or "adult" Link so in that sense, having two Links is a necessity while two Zeldas are not.

 

[Sharkarat]

We do; however, know that he was quite interested in the notion of Toon Zelda prior to Smash 4. Take that as you will, but I believe that this has something to do with his obsession.

While he might have shown interest in toon Zelda, notice that I said different Zeldas. We don't know when it comes moveset if he would:

1. Make one "True" Zelda, and then make a clone.
2. Make two differen Zelda based on their different potential.

 

[Morbi]

Don't forget that Link has a wide, wide variety of tools to use in the series. Zelda does not. While Sakurai gave the Links similar LOOKING attacks, the Zelda games feature either a child or "adult" Link so in that sense, having two Links is a necessity while two Zeldas are not.

It isn't necessarily a necessity. Child Link is the more prevalent Link, so he would be sufficient on his own. In the case of Smash, Adult Link would have been adequate. Two Link's is warranted, definitely. I think it is an exaggeration to proclaim the two as necessary.

 

[Deleted member]

The denial in here is noice.

People are grasping at straws so hard.

I'm just gonna laugh when the PH replaces Sheik.

Diddy, post that pic.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I think at this point, we are going in circles. We covered everything that can goes with or against the phantom as a move/AT. We maybe should wait for confirmation.

 

[Frostwraith]

The denial in here is noice.

People are grasping at straws so hard.

I'm just gonna laugh when the PH replaces Sheik.

Diddy, post that pic.

I could interpret that post of yours as you and Diddy being in denial, note that.

There's no conclusive answer to this question, no matter how each side tries to argue otherwise.

The main hypotheses are:
a. Sheik returns and the Phantom is an Assist Trophy.
b. Sheik does not return and the Phantom is a new move.

There are hints that point towards each possibility, yet there's nothing entirely conclusive, therefore all sides are grasping at straws, you and me included.

Stating that Sheik is playable as if it was a fact is as foolhardy as stating that the Phantom has replaced the Sheik transformation.

Until Sakurai confirms anything regarding the Phantom or Sheik, this will be going in circles with no end in sight. The absolute truth is nothing has been confirmed, therefore, nothing regarding this question can be stated as a fact.

 

[Vintage Creep]

People talking about denial in this topic are funny as hell.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Whatever the situation is Frost, Sheik's chances are considerably worse than before, while Impa becomes more likely.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Are we in 2007 again?

 

[L2 Sentinel]

I'm with the "Assist Trophy" side of the debate. I'd love for transform to be replaced with a new move, but I'm not convinced that the Phantom Knight is part of her kit. There isn't enough evidence. That screenshot does not reveal a whole lot.

 

[Katy Parry]

Whatever the situation is Frost, Sheik's chances are considerably worse than before, while Impa becomes more likely.

And your opinion of the situation is more in your favor because...?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Two unfamilar poses and Phantom left unexplained.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

There's the "Sheikah pose" but the other is?

I find this situation clearly less threatening than the "sheik is not in TP" era.

 

[Katy Parry]

There's the "Sheikah pose" but the other is?

I find this situation clearly less threatening than the "sheik is not in TP" era.

Exactly... I mean if anything, Lucario returning just shows how much more likely Sheiks in. Lucario isn't as iconic as Sheik is to the Smash Bros. series. I can understand Dedede, but the trend seems to be replacing Pokemon if anything.

We've got two Sheikah poses, I mean, it's just so blantanly obvious.

And yes, we understand that the phantom is left unexplained.

But Starfy is left unexplained, too. His first update (and only update) was "Yellow Characters." I don't care if he was in the last game or not. If it was that big of a change, like I've stated a million billion times, he would have already addressed it when she was revealed, just like how they've made note of the changes made to Lucario.

It's a trend that Sakurai tells the most important change upon a characters reveal. With Lucario, he stated "we've change the Aura mechanic to be much more powerful". Or when he talked about Samus' charge shot.

Don't tell me that Sakurai wouldn't explain any major changes to Zelda while she was either still freshly revealed, or the day of her reveal. He noted how her magic has changed in appearance, but that's the only major change we've heard of so far.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

We also heard how Link's down-air change was considered. Not made; considered. If there would be such a drastic change, we would had heard about it.