People need to understand the real reason for our disappointment:

[flyinfilipino]

People need to understand that no one cares how much you *****, whine, and complain about the roster.

Well, obviously you do, since you wanted to let them know this. Just saying : )

 

[zPhoenixExz]

3. The lack of Effort

Brawl also needed way more time for a fleshed out single player, online mode (which is not nintendo's forte), balancing, etc. I would agree on lack of time, but lack of effort? NO.

The roster is not everything, most people buy games from the game player, not for a certain style of pixels.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Brawl also needed way more time for a fleshed out single player, online mode (which is not nintendo's forte), balancing, etc. I would agree on lack of time, but lack of effort? NO.

The roster is not everything, most people buy games from the game player, not for a certain style of pixels.

Exactly: unless something is extremely f-ed up with a certain character, no one is going to have any problems with this roster in a few months (maybe weeks). There's always wishing something could happen for the next game, but why preoccupy yourself?

 

[MirageofMadness]

If clones are what are stopping you from having fun, then why bother playing the game in the first place?

If you've ever played fox and falco, gannon and falcon, doc and mario, etc. all in the same day or even at all, then stop complaining, just take it for what it is, and enjoy it.

(This won't matter to anyone, but it felt nice to say.)

You're right, it doesn't matter to anyone, because there's no relevance to your post. READ THE THREAD. No one is refusing to have fun because of the things wrong with the game. And what does playing as fox/falco, ganon./falcon, mario/doc in the same day/at all have to do with anything?

Anyways onto my post...

I, as a fan of Nintendo and a fan of SSB in general, was hoping for some amazing all-star choices for Brawl. I think we totally got some kick-*** selections in regards to the character selections.

The problem isn't with WHO was picked to be in the roster, despite the fact that some characters thought to have a shoe-in are missing. That was bound to happen and no one is denying it.

The REAL PROBLEM is the fact that so many characters are clones that really didn't have to be. Don't you get it that its not JUST the character that represents a franchise/game, its their movesets, too!

Toon Link COULD have represented the new cel-shaded, contemporary Zelda games, and they could have referenced those games with his moveset! Players could have been like, "Oh fun, he used that thing from Wind Waker" or "wow that is definitely from Minish Cap." Instead, Toon Link hasn't been done justice because he will stay in the shadow of not only Link from Brawl for being so similar, but also in the shadow of Melee's Link and Young Link for being directly cloned from them.

Same goes for Wolf, Lucas, Falco and Ganondorf. They are ALL great selections to represent the franchises they are from, but they just don't seem to be done justice. Ganondorf practically already had a moveset built from past Zelda games, with each move screaming to be used to be implemented into his moveset in order to represent a certain time in Zelda history.

Lucas could have easily been able to use many other PSI abilities- try any of the ones he actually DOES use in MOTHER 3 (PK LOVE?)

Since neither Falco nor Wolf even had moves from games to pick from, why couldn't they have had new made-up moves instead of slightly differing Fox moves? I wouldn't even mind it if they all had the same of ONE move- hell, I'd actually encourage that because it would make them feel like they go together, which in a way, they do.

 

[JoJoRukus]

While I am happy they made SOME effort to differentiate clones from their originals, I feel pretty bad about several respects... However, its not because of the roster number in particular, or because of ROB, like many have complained about. Mostly that's on GameFAQs, which I was stupid enough to be browsing through for a laugh whenever this server was too heavy... So many people making laughably uninformed claims and saying "LANDM4STER!!!" every post and a half. But I digress.

Roster is 35. Good, not bad at all. 16(Plus or minus 1 or 2... I don't have the time to check this), and that's taking into consideration that 4 were cut completely from the Melee roster. Other fighting games that I've enjoyed both the gameplay and the roster size have even smaller rosters than that. Way to go! However... those games USUALLY don't have 3 slightly altered variations of one character. I'm looking at you Wolf and Falco! Seriously, that is my biggest beef, and I don't really care about the differences in Wolf's moves. Hell, I'd even take Slippy Toad with a nerfed Wolf moveset solely because of the fact it would feel different, unique, but instead we've got Evil Fox over here... With a Landmaster apparently, although I have little confirmation on that, and to be honest similar Final Smashes to save some production time would be okay if it wasn't happening for 3 characters, which I don't know if it is, but...

Anyway, another thing I disliked was the inclusion of three characters with a similar moveset and the elimination of another clone, that being Mewtwo. That way there would be two pairs of clones rather than a cut and a trio of clones. HOWEVER, Pokemon is very well represented, so a cut there isn't THAT bad, and I'm sure he would have been included if it didn't interfere with the pristine arrangement 35 characters can make across the screen like they did... although 36 could have been done as well, but the random button would have been nerfed (oh noes). But there are clones I would have gladly welcomed over a second Fox clone any day... Dark Samus, perhaps? Alter Samus's graphics, her moves slightly, and nerf the Zero Beam a little bit so she doesn't have to be forced to Zero Suit, unless you think it would be pretty cool to see that semi-transparent Dark Samus from MP2. Metroid is under-represented anyway, but the harsh reality is that ZSS counts as a newcomer for the Metroid series, and then Star Fox would have no newcomers whatsoever...

The more I talk about this, the more and more this seems like a paradox. I mean, a lot of people say how "easy" it would be to change the movesets of the clones and stuff like that, but is it really? And then what should they do, over-represent Pokemon to get Mewtwo back, get more reps for Metroid while eliminating any newcomers for Star Fox?... Then again, Star Fox STILL hardly has any newcomers since they are so similar anyway. Maybe I could see Toon Link getting cut to fill in the Metroid gap, I think that would have been acceptable. Still, Toon Link does look like fun to play, and now that he exists I can't just imagine how it would be to cut him out. D:

In an ideal world, the clones would be a even less like clones than they are now, maybe even their own characters entirely. Then the gaps of character representation would be filled by one final row of 8 characters... In my eyes, a good set would be a new Metroid rep, an Animal Crossing rep, another 3rd party... and then I am kinda stumped for the remaining 5. Maybe one more DK, Fire Emblem, MAYBE Mewtwo... then the last two I get stumped again. Its hard not to over represent people.

As I right this and hopefully as you read it, it becomes increasingly apparent how difficult it must have been to decide what to do for the Smash roster. If it took 2 delays for this roster, imagine how much longer we might have had to wait for the addition of another row of 8... Would it be worth it, even if a few were clones? We got pseudo clones anyway, so... I'm stumped. Thrice.

Long story short, the roster ISN'T what I expected, I DO plan to have fun with it regardless, but I also feel like certain things weren't thought through... What I suggest is that as many fans as possible email (POLITELY) their opinion on the roster... If Nintendo knows that the game was enjoyable, but fell short on a few expectations in regards to roster size and quality in regard to clones, perhaps the fourth Smash game will exceed our expectations... 5 years from now.

Aww snap, you know what would be pretty cool? A year or so from now I'd buy a Smash game that was essentially Brawl with an expanded roster and the storyline cut from Adventure Mode for the sake of including said new characters without extra development... because I am THAT big of a roster nerd. D:

In one final note and my last ditch effort to finally escape this comment, let me say that in the very least I am glad that they made SOME effort to make more differentiation between the clones, such as the addition strangle animation on Ganondorf's Forward Special, and the occasionally different A attacks and the special move differences between the 3 Foxes... Just think, they could have just left them EXACTLY the same, and we wouldn't be able to do a **** thing but complain. D:

 

[Guglio]

I'll do my best to explain this to everyone.

Note: If you feel offended by any of the following, go somewhere else.

Ahem.

I think I can reiterate why everyone's let down on this roster. Simply put, it's not really a new game, but more of an advancement. It's really just Melee 2.0.

Out of the 35 character roster, there are 16 newcomers (counting ZSS). Of them, only Wario, Diddy Kong, Pit, ROB, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Olimar, Pokemon Trainer, Sonic and Snake are actually new characters. That's only 10 new guys. 6 years of waiting for 10 new characters.

The other new comers are either semi clones or clones. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've never found clones to be good. You really can't argue the balancing factor either, because Melee was not balanced at all. They simply removed some characters (Y. Link, Mewtwo, Roy) and replaced them with rehased models with new faces (Toon Link, Lucario, Ike). I'm glad they were able to add new characters, but simply copy pasting a face onto another one isn't really new - it's improved. I don't think we were looking for improved, we were looking for new AND improved. And we got screwed on the "new" part.

I myself was looking for a few characters to make it in. Now it seems I have to wait another 6 years for them. I'm not sure who I can speak for, but I personally wanted more Metroid reps. I didn't just want a Stripper Samus, I wanted villains, but instead got Fox 3.0. I wanted maybe Midna, instead, I got WW Link sans any WW things. I wanted a kick *** Lucario, instead got MewThree. And I especially wanted anyone over the Robotic Operating Buddy.

So, yes, I was screwed out of what could have been a great, great game. Now it's just decent.

And for anyone saying "ZOMFG he put in all these bonus features and SSE!" get real. Smash Bros is best known for its multiplayer. If I wanted a 1P game, I'd play Mario, Metroid or Zelda. They are all more rewarding.

 

[Dogenzaka]

I've seen a lot of people on this board (and others) shouting about how the people who are disappointed with the final Brawl roster are just whining because their one favorite character wasn't in, or because nothing short of a 50-character of roster would have been enough for them, or other condescending crap like that. That's NOT why we're unhappy...at least not most of us.

Anyone who comes to Smashboards can see that there are literally hundreds of character support threads filled with people who would love to see one cool character or another. We all knew that it was going to be impossible for the roster to include everything. I wasn't expecting a roster that was perfect. All I wanted was a roster that I could look at and say, "Well, it might not have everything, but I can tell from these choices that they did the best they could with the time and resources they had." Nothing more.

That is NOT what I am seeing here. Young Link with his same cloned Link moves, with no cool new Wind Waker items like the Deku Leaf or Skull Hammer. Fox in the game three times over to the exclusion of many cool and unique alternatives. This does NOT say "best effort" to me. I'm not sure if it even says "laziness". It says they just didn't care about making the best of what they had. They didn't care about uniqueness or diversity in the playable characters. They spent all this time and effort on all these random modes and features, but couldn't be bothered with properly planning out the single most important aspect of the game?

If they only have enough time and resources to make 35 characters, then fine. I can accept that easily. But use that time to make the best 35-character roster you can! "Let's spend our precious time adding a clone of a clone of Fox" is not the thing a competent developer has any right to say when you have those sorts of limitations. If they had taken out Falco, Wolf, and Lucas, and instead put in, for example, Krystal, Ridley, and Simon Belmont or something, they would have used only slightly more development effort and the roster would have been twice as good as what we got. They made stupid, boring choices over and over for no reason at all.

We're not saying that we won't buy the game now, or that it will no longer be fun. Of course it will still be fun! It is because it will be fun that this is upsetting. This is a game that will probably played well into the next decade...maybe longer. Seeing its potential reduced so much because of a pointless, inexplicable error is a tragedy, and I don't see what's wrong with acknowledging that.

Agreed, and with 2+ years of development, it's absolutely inexcusable. Especially how the Melee clones were virtually untouched. There's no reason why Ganon should use a sword.

There's no reason why Sakurai should say "We're not going to put in Animal Crosser because he's not meant to fight" and then put in a robot that no one asked for.

I feel as though he focused too much on what he could add to make the game more robust, instead of focusing on what matters the most. What the core of the game is. The characters. Without all the extra game modes and gimmicks and stickers and coins, the game would still be Smash. Without a good roster though, the game is nothing. He really mixed up this time..

 

[Ackmm7]

Guys you have to put this in perspective, how many playable original characters were there in melee compared to the first game. You only have about 6 or 7. Each time they make a new game they need to up the anti and make it a better game. And this time around they did. We got almost 12 totally new characters. That is huge as well as them adding the Vets. They designed the story around these characters but knew that people would want more.

Whats wrong with some clones if you get a little more variety or would you rather have 25 really good characters. You cant have your cake and eat it too. They not only expanded on the single player of the game but we get ONLINE guys. Just try to put the amount of work theve done on this game into perspective. We are lucky to get so many great newcomers!

 

[Maricalistaro]

Sigh... I,m so upset at being apart of the smash fanbase. I,m ashamed at the level of immaturity that is being displayed in the community.

Most everyone is upset because they didn't get their favorite flavored lolipop. Im gonna leave until the game comes out because listening to all of the complaining is depressing. I'll come back when everyone has played the game and has had some time to have some genuine fun with the game and cool off.

P.S. I,m so glad Ganondorf is still a clone.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Well, IMO, if thou shall keep complaining of Brawl's incompleteness and it being a disappointment, I would suggest shutting up and reject playing Brawl. Sakurai can't hear anyone's plea for better updates, so people shouldn't try fighting for something that will most likely not occur.

 

[JoJoRukus]

Sigh... I,m so upset at being apart of the smash fanbase. I,m ashamed at the level of immaturity that is being displayed in the community.

Most everyone is upset because they didn't get their favorite flavored lolipop. Im gonna leave until the game comes out because listening to all of the complaining is depressing. I'll come back when everyone has played the game and has had some time to have some genuine fun with the game and cool off.

P.S. I,m so glad Ganondorf is still a clone.

Sorry, my nerdulance got the better of me. D:

Also... Ganondorf's moves are decent, its just that in my mind they are Falcon's moves, just because he was using them first. However, if Falcon came along as the clone of Ganondorf, I bet nobody would even give a **** that he was the clone. o_o Kind of funny.

 

[BananaHammock]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've never found clones to be good. You really can't argue the balancing factor either, because Melee was not balanced at all. They simply removed some characters (Y. Link, Mewtwo, Roy) and replaced them with rehased models with new faces (Toon Link, Lucario, Ike). I'm glad they were able to add new characters, but simply copy pasting a face onto another one isn't really new - it's improved. I don't think we were looking for improved, we were looking for new AND improved. And we got screwed on the "new" part.

I myself was looking for a few characters to make it in. Now it seems I have to wait another 6 years for them. I'm not sure who I can speak for, but I personally wanted more Metroid reps. I didn't just want a Stripper Samus, I wanted villains, but instead got Fox 3.0. I wanted maybe Midna, instead, I got WW Link sans any WW things. I wanted a kick *** Lucario, instead got MewThree. And I especially wanted anyone over the Robotic Operating Buddy.

So, yes, I was screwed out of what could have been a great, great game. Now it's just decent.

And for anyone saying "ZOMFG he put in all these bonus features and SSE!" get real. Smash Bros is best known for its multiplayer. If I wanted a 1P game, I'd play Mario, Metroid or Zelda. They are all more rewarding.

Two BIG things. Where do you come off saying clones aren't good? Do you even have reason? Clones add to the game whether you can accept it or not. And YES you ABSOLUTELY CAN argue the "balancing" effect clones have.

Where are Fox and Falco on the tier list? Right next to each other

Where are Doc and Mario? Two spots away.

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon? Six (same tier)

Link and Young Link? Four (same tier)

On top of all this: That paragraph I highlighted in blue simply serves to prove what the thread starter was trying to disprove: that ya'll are just whining about your favorite characters not making it in to Brawl.

BTW 10 brand new characters is a TON for a fighting game. Melee is the only game I know of that tops it in the category of brand new characters. Quit your whining.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Yeah, I saw that, but I ignored it. You have to admit, the cloneage is minor outside of his FS and his Down B. He's less of a clone than Luigi is.

So basically, instead of Wolf, we could've of had any original character? Huh...

 

[Finn Macool]

2. Metroid fans have a right to complain.
I could understand in Melee because Samus doesn't have any helper/sidekick characters like in... about any other franchise, but now Metroid needs more representatives, and Ridley who boasts the name of the man who inspired Metroid to begin with along with actually making Samus who she was unlike a lot of other villains definitely needed the spot.
And don't give me that ZZS moveset crap. We didn't want Samus with another moveset, we wanted another representative.
Oh yeah, and once again, Star Fox outreps us entirely even though we're more popular, well known and have been around more. ZSS would have been a fine excuse as a helper, but without a villain rep it's pointless.
BTW, this arguement could be held for the King K Rool fans as well.

althougnive defended sakurai all through this thread this is the only thing that pissed me off, not only are DS and ridley great characters they had great and unique potential movesets i was looking forward to using
and metroid is a cornerstone ninty franchise the 1.5 char representation it gets doent do it justice, just because the prime game werent popular in japan doesnt mean they dont deserve representation when they were loved in, let me think, THE REST OF THE WORLD

 

[Pink Reaper]

He is an original character >.< People need to stop complaining about Wolf, he IS an original character, more so than Luigi. Also, people need to stop complaining about clones. None of you are going to be playing this game as seriously as you pretend you are. After a year or so when you've unlocked everything and beaten everything, your going to stop caring about Brawl. The competitive scene on the other hand will still be playing. You don't see them complaining about Clones do you? Thats because clones don't really matter. So their animations are the same, it doesn't make the game play the same and THAT is what matters. I for one am glad to see that Falco/Young Link/Ganondorf are the same as they were in melee. That means all the hard work people went through to learn them wasn't for naught. Now if only we still had AT's >_>

 

[LuisMa316]

Well, IMO, if thou shall keep complaining of Brawl's incompleteness and it being a disappointment, I would suggest shutting up and reject playing Brawl. Sakurai can't hear anyone's plea for better updates, so people shouldn't try fighting for something that will most likely not occur.

Word.

I mean we got guys like Dedede and Sonic.....its a kick *** roster as it is.


And Lucario isn't really a clone i mean Mewtwo doesn't have Extreme speed.

 

[LuisMa316]

althougnive defended sakurai all through this thread this is the only thing that pissed me off, not only are DS and ridley great characters they had great and unique potential movesets i was looking forward to using
and metroid is a cornerstone ninty franchise the 1.5 char representation it gets doent do it justice, just because the prime game werent popular in japan doesnt mean they dont deserve representation when they were loved in, let me think, THE REST OF THE WORLD

Ridley would have been horribly dumb down as a PC and his boss fight looks awesome.

Dark Samus story ended with corruption....and it seems Sylux is after Samus now.

 

[Dardrax]

If anyone thinks that Brawl had no effort put into it, I recommend a lobotomy immediately. It has been delayed countless times just so Sakurai could add more and more to an already fantastic game. I honestly can't see how anyone has the right to complain about the roster. Sure, there are a couple clones here and there, but many of them have enough differences to have a dramatically different play style. Quit whining and go drink your Kool-Aid.

 

[JoJoRukus]

It has been delayed countless times just so Sakurai could add more and more to an already fantastic game.

I counted two. o_o

Sorry, you set me up for it... XD
In other news, I am in agreement with your reasoning. Kool Aid please.

 

[mogwaimon]

Y'know what I think?I think SSBB could be the first Nintendo game to support DLC, especially if it IS the last Smash game.A foundation for online is already there; we can download stages, screenshots, etc, and also fight each other online, which is a pretty big thing compared to Nintendo's prior online history.

Now, what if Sakurai released the game early due to time constraints?Obviously, he didn't have all the time he wanted if so many 'clones', Luigified or not, exist. The rest of the game seems to be exemplary, by the looks of it.Everything except the roster, that is.. (Which, IMO, is solid.I got Wario, Sonic, Snake, and Ganondorf.I'm content with them)

Perhaps his plan is to make an expansion to Brawl and release it over the Wii Shop or even on disk?Well, disc would be better, seeing as the Wii's onboard memory is so small (512 MB, right?) or even release downloadable characters?We may never see Wolf/Falco/Fox decloned, but perhaps an extra newcomer or two?At the very least, there would be patches to fix bugs and glitches in the game released over the net, maybe. At most, maybe a SSBB 'Final Mix' a la Kingdom Hearts with added content and whatnot.

...However, sadly, Nintendo has never been known as a company to add content to their games after release. SquareEnix does director's cut editions for almost all their big RPGs nowadays and releases it in Japan only most of the time. Koei is infamous for churning out expansions to their Warriors games (I must admit, as a Warriors addict, only I am to blame for repeatedly spending money on them ^^; They're **** fine, though)... But I can't recall ANY occasion where Nintendo has offered post-release additions or support to any of their games, which leads me to believe that my hopes for at least more 64/Melee stage remakes and maybe one new character will be dashed.

But, think of it this way.Brawl will still be a fun game with great gameplay. To those of you saying that since advanced techniques have been cut the game will suck...well, wavedashing wasn't discovered until late into Melee's life, and even then it was an accident. There will be advanced techs here. To those discontent with the roster...well, hopefully next time. Geno, Ridley, Krystal...all fine additions, and hopefully an update will add them or they will be in SSB4. Until then, we must enjoy what we have in the now, right?

 

[Finn Macool]

Ridley would have been horribly dumb down as a PC and his boss fight looks awesome.

Dark Samus story ended with corruption....and it seems Sylux is after Samus now.

you say ridley would be dumb but then back it up with nothing, he would be unique they could ignore real sizes (i.e. kirby) to make him as big as they want he could have a very slow moving speed but great ariel movements and great ranged attcks making him a movable fire base
DS was the main antagonist of three blockbuckster games whearas sylux has been featured in one much less applauded game, and what about chars like sheik, a side character in ONE game now im not saying sheik doesnt deserve a spot but DS is at least equally deserving

 

[Digital Angel]

you say ridley would be dumb but then back it up with nothing, he would be unique they could ignore real sizes (i.e. kirby) to make him as big as they want he could have a very slow moving speed but great ariel movements and great ranged attcks making him a movable fire base
DS was the main antagonist of three blockbuckster games whearas sylux has been featured in one much less applauded game, and what about chars like sheik, a side character in ONE game now im not saying sheik doesnt deserve a spot but DS is at least equally deserving

And you make a similar claim and back it up with baseless evidence, that's so much more effective. :/

 

[Spellman]

you say ridley would be dumb but then back it up with nothing, he would be unique they could ignore real sizes (i.e. kirby) to make him as big as they want he could have a very slow moving speed but great ariel movements and great ranged attcks making him a movable fire base
DS was the main antagonist of three blockbuckster games whearas sylux has been featured in one much less applauded game, and what about chars like sheik, a side character in ONE game now im not saying sheik doesnt deserve a spot but DS is at least equally deserving

Ridley's a friggin' monster with no intelligence. How would he pick up items, how would he be able to fight in tournament style play? He just wants to fly around blasting the shiznit out of everything he can see. And seeing Ridley smashed out of the arena like a common Smash Bros. would just be a sick joke to Ridley fans who have watched him break apart, explode into flames, explode into Phazon, gee.

 

[firewingpegasus]

The problem isn't that.
Seriously.

The problem is that Sora team revealed too many Newcomers as starters, and we expected more Newcomers as hidden characters. That's all.

If Pokemon Trainer, for example, was a hidden character the whole people aren't be so disappointed.

That was the problem.

That's exactly my thoughts... i find it silly that sakurai decided to show us most of the new characters, and fill up the secret set with veteran fighters. I would have loved to be surprised by the secret ones, because that's what we were all expecting to happen when the game came out and everything was revealed. I didn't think we'd be told about the best part, let alone by the creator himself. No one would think like that... &_&

 

[Finn Macool]

And you make a similar claim and back it up with baseless evidence, that's so much more effective. :/

No i gave an argument as to why they should have been included

 

[Guglio]

Two BIG things. Where do you come off saying clones aren't good? Do you even have reason? Clones add to the game whether you can accept it or not. And YES you ABSOLUTELY CAN argue the "balancing" effect clones have.

Where are Fox and Falco on the tier list? Right next to each other

Where are Doc and Mario? Two spots away.

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon? Six (same tier)

Link and Young Link? Four (same tier)

On top of all this: That paragraph I highlighted in blue simply serves to prove what the thread starter was trying to disprove: that ya'll are just whining about your favorite characters not making it in to Brawl.

BTW 10 brand new characters is a TON for a fighting game. Melee is the only game I know of that tops it in the category of brand new characters. Quit your whining.

First, calling people with general upset "whiners" are whiners themselves, so stfu.

Melee had more new guys in less time, Brawl had more time, and less new characters.

In a tier list where there are four, maybe five tiers, two tiers away are huge. And how does listing tiers make clones a balancing act? Fox and Falco (aka two foxes) are the top tier characters. Balanced? Not really. It wasn't balanced to make Sheik more powerful than Zelda when Zelda is clearly more iconic, same with Dr. Mario / Mario. Clones only add overlapping characters. That's it. They just add ANOTHER character that's nearly the same. If Wolf was completely different, then he would have been fantastic, but he's not. He's an overused design model.

So, instead of adding new characters, they add new faces with old designs and movesets and call it new. Tiers really, in the end, mean nothing. Tiers only matter for competitive play, and I don't see us discussing competitive play.

Again, the "roster is fine" side adds nothing to their arguement but flaming those who try to make reasonable posts. I did not go "Whaaa whaaaaa I'm crying because I didn't get X or Y," I said Sakurai squandered his time and now we have useless lumps of code isntead of people who don't use the landmaster.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Where's my L-cancel >=O

 

[Finn Macool]

Ridley's a friggin' monster with no intelligence. How would he pick up items, how would he be able to fight in tournament style play? He just wants to fly around blasting the shiznit out of everything he can see. And seeing Ridley smashed out of the arena like a common Smash Bros. would just be a sick joke to Ridley fans who have watched him break apart, explode into flames, explode into Phazon, gee.

Ridleys one of the space pirate LEADERS not some unintelligent monster and so what if he was, what about pikachu HES an unintelligent (pocket) monster who picks up items with his **** mouth, and what do you mean "just wants to fly around blasting the shiznit out of everything he can see" are you questioning his motivations for brawl cause if so you can do that for any character and who the hell cares if/how he died that doesnt make any difference, just think of ganondorf whos had the same 'bad guy dies all the time' treatment

 

[Pink Reaper]

I think this thread needs to be closed. Obviously, the people who are displeased with the roster are never going to be happy with it and the people who are happy with it will never understand why. All of this so called "Discussion" is nothing more than opinions with little to info to back it up and instant flames when someone disagrees.

 

[BananaHammock]

First, calling people with general upset "whiners" are whiners themselves, so stfu.

Melee had more new guys in less time, Brawl had more time, and less new characters.

In a tier list where there are four, maybe five tiers, two tiers away are huge. And how does listing tiers make clones a balancing act? Fox and Falco (aka two foxes) are the top tier characters. Balanced? Not really. It wasn't balanced to make Sheik more powerful than Zelda when Zelda is clearly more iconic, same with Dr. Mario / Mario. Clones only add overlapping characters. That's it. They just add ANOTHER character that's nearly the same. If Wolf was completely different, then he would have been fantastic, but he's not. He's an overused design model.

So, instead of adding new characters, they add new faces with old designs and movesets and call it new. Tiers really, in the end, mean nothing. Tiers only matter for competitive play, and I don't see us discussing competitive play.

Again, the "roster is fine" side adds nothing to their arguement but flaming those who try to make reasonable posts. I did not go "Whaaa whaaaaa I'm crying because I didn't get X or Y," I said Sakurai squandered his time and now we have useless lumps of code isntead of people who don't use the landmaster.

You may have...let me rephrase...You didn't understand at all what I was saying. Making a clone of a character guarantees that THOSE TWO CHARACTERS will be balanced between themselves. That, in turn, makes it easier to balance the two (or three in fox, falco, and wolf's case) amongst the other characters. Did they get that right in Melee? No. But I'm not arguing that they did, so take it easy son.

And if you think clones play exactly the same, tell that to PC Chris...too bad you probably don't even get the reference.

Tiers mean alot btw. They are the closest thing to telling us how balanced the game is. Don't start hating on it just because it validated my point.

 

[Magmar's Wrath]

You people against the topic just don't get it.

We are dissapointed with the roster because it feels like a slapdash roof on a splendid house!!

They have the game modes, the Subspace Emmisary, the online, the stickers and trophies, the great starting characters, the grand assist trophies, the co-op play in so many features, Sonic, Snake...

And then they shove the clones from last game into this one, like if they didn't need to be tweaked, and even continue the pattern further.

All you can do is insult us, degrade, flame, and make yourself feel better by chewing us out over being upset. This isn't a debate anymore, it's a flame war. I really hope you're happy. Every time someone tries to logically say why the game didn't meet expectations, you come in here screaming like banshees as if we posted Danish cartoons on Allah. It's sad that when you cannot have an intelligent debate on what was the only intelligent place on the web to talk about Brawl.

 

[BananaHammock]

Ridleys one of the space pirate LEADERS not some unintelligent monster and so what if he was, what about pikachu HES an unintelligent (pocket) monster who picks up items with his **** mouth, and what do you mean "just wants to fly around blasting the shiznit out of everything he can see" are you questioning his motivations for brawl cause if so you can do that for any character and who the hell cares if/how he died that doesnt make any difference, just think of ganondorf whos had the same 'bad guy dies all the time' treatment

As much as I may or may not sympathize with you. I don't think that ANY of that went into the consideration for Ridley to be a PC. They didn't sit down and say "well you see, Ridley is just some dragon thingy that wants to blow stuff up. So we definitely can't make him a playable character."

Yeah I don't think so. Please just realize that there was a lot more behind the thought process that we will never know about.

 

[Guglio]

You may have...let me rephrase...You didn't understand at all what I was saying. Making a clone of a character guarantees that THOSE TWO CHARACTERS will be balanced between themselves. That, in turn, makes it easier to balance the two (or three in fox, falco, and wolf's case) amongst the other characters. Did they get that right in Melee? No. But I'm not arguing that they did, so take it easy son.

And if you think clones play exactly the same, tell that to PC Chris...too bad you probably don't even get the reference.

Tiers mean alot btw. They are the closest thing to telling us how balanced the game is. Don't start hating on it just because it validated my point.

GASP.

Clones don't make them balanced, they make it UNBALANCED. Now instead of one guy, we have two guys who will either be great or fail. Both Foxes were top tier. Both Links weren't. Both Mario's weren't. The only clones distinguishable from each other were Ganondorf and C. Falcon. Yay they got 2 haracters right and 4 wrong.

Tiers are only relevant if everyone single SSB player played competitively, which they don't. Obviously they failed with balancing, didn't they, because Fox and Fox 2.0 are at the top and characters who were always unique (like Yoshi or Mr G&W) aren't.

 

[BananaHammock]

You people against the topic just don't get it.

We are dissapointed with the roster because it feels like a slapdash roof on a splendid house!!

They have the game modes, the Subspace Emmisary, the online, the stickers and trophies, the great starting characters, the grand assist trophies, the co-op play in so many features, Sonic, Snake...

And then they shove the clones from last game into this one, like if they didn't need to be tweaked, and even continue the pattern further.

All you can do is insult us, degrade, flame, and make yourself feel better by chewing us out over being upset. This isn't a debate anymore, it's a flame war. I really hope you're happy. Every time someone tries to logically say why the game didn't meet expectations, you come in here screaming like banshees as if we posted Danish cartoons on Allah. It's sad that when you cannot have an intelligent debate on what was the only intelligent place on the web to talk about Brawl.

There's no way I can make you like clones, but like I said earlier:

There were 6 clones in Melee. (Doc, Ganondorf, Falco, Young Link, Pichu, Roy)

There are 5 (IF you count Ganon and Lucas) in Brawl. (Toon Link, Falco, Wolf, Ganon, Lucas)

4 of the 6 Melee clones didn't even return in Brawl.........

SO IN SHORT: THERE ARE LESS CLONES IN BRAWL THAN THERE WERE IN MELEE!

Stop talking about it please.

 

[Finn Macool]

Melee had more new guys in less time, Brawl had more time, and less new characters.

and melee had more clones

 

[BananaHammock]

GASP.

Clones don't make them balanced, they make it UNBALANCED. Now instead of one guy, we have two guys who will either be great or fail. Both Foxes were top tier. Both Links weren't. Both Mario's weren't. The only clones distinguishable from each other were Ganondorf and C. Falcon. Yay they got 2 haracters right and 4 wrong.

Tiers are only relevant if everyone single SSB player played competitively, which they don't. Obviously they failed with balancing, didn't they, because Fox and Fox 2.0 are at the top and characters who were always unique (like Yoshi or Mr G&W) aren't.

Thank you for repeating what I just said. Except for that first sentence. Clones didn't make the game unbalanced. The developers did. They could have made Fox and Falco both balanced among the other characters, but they didn't. I never said they did either.

About the tiers. They exist. I promise. And they matter. I promise that too. Pichu is not as good as Marth, no matter how competitively you play. I don't know why you're trying to disprove this.

 

[Magmar's Wrath]

There's no way I can make you like clones, but like I said earlier:

There were 6 clones in Melee. (Doc, Ganondorf, Falco, Young Link, Pichu, Roy)

There are 5 (IF you count Ganon and Lucas) in Brawl. (Toon Link, Falco, Wolf, Ganon, Lucas)

4 of the 6 Melee clones didn't even return in Brawl.........

SO IN SHORT: THERE ARE LESS CLONES IN BRAWL THAN THERE WERE IN MELEE!

Stop talking about it please.

I suppose mention Marth and Ike would result in a flame war. People are so uptight about those two.

So, you have 5 (6, sir!) clones in Brawl; yes, well, there still should have been NONE!! Toon Link should have had WW weapons! Falco and Wolf have their own sci-fi weapons and original Final Smashes! Ganondorf should have been much more his own character, not STILL a clone of Falcon, whom he never should have been. Lucas and Ness could have had different movesets; even Ness could have, after all he never used those PK spells in Earthbound.

And Ike and Marth- *stops self*

The other point besides these 5 (6, sir!) characters is that there still are a lot of the favorites that got left out. And before you rag on me for 'whining about characters not being in', lemme just say that all major fans had a reason for supporting characters like Geno, Ridley, Krystal, Tom Nook, etc..

There were polls, more than one, of characters people wanted to see most. And they didn't make it in. Why? Even if you have the clones, why can't you have more characters than 35? They delayed the game 2 months, they had almost 3 years and 100+ people on it, and they couldn't make more than what they have now? It's only 10 characters more than Melee, and Melee was almost 6 years ago!

So forgive us for wanting more from a game that was hyped up by creators and fans alike. Oh, and even if we did overhype ourselves, how many of us are unreasonable? How many of us are threatening to boycott the game, starting flame wars on the boards, and cursing out anyone who disagrees with them? The way I see it, the people 'defending' the roster are the ones are being rude, cussing, insulting, and condescending towards others. It's like they have a personal vendetta against anyone who DARES say bad things about Brawl.

***

You know what? Forget it. It seems that people who are dissapointed are going to be flamed and degraded for having an opinion no matter what they say. If your standards meet the game, fine. Who the heck are we hurting by saying we dissaprove of clones and a small roster in our most anticipated game.

 

[Guglio]

Thank you for repeating what I just said. Except for that first sentence. Clones didn't make the game unbalanced. The developers did. They could have made Fox and Falco both balanced among the other characters, but they didn't. I never said they did either.

About the tiers. They exist. I promise. And they matter. I promise that too. Pichu is not as good as Marth, no matter how competitively you play. I don't know why you're trying to disprove this.

I never said Pichu was as good as Marth. For someone who claims me doing alot of "putting words in my mouth," you sure do it alot too.

I don't care if tiers exist. They are highly irrelevant. They only appear relevant to people who decide they need outside factors to tell them who is a good character and who isn't. It's the SSB version of laziness.

The people I play(ed) with don't care about tiers, because they are useless once you discover that characters are unbalanced anyways, and the tier list is just a charted form of that. I don't see why you are trying to prove they mean anything more.

 

[BananaHammock]

I suppose mention Marth and Ike would result in a flame war. People are so uptight about those two.

So, you have 5 (6, sir!) clones in Brawl; yes, well, there still should have been NONE!! Toon Link should have had WW weapons! Falco and Wolf have their own sci-fi weapons and original Final Smashes! Ganondorf should have been much more his own character, not STILL a clone of Falcon, whom he never should have been. Lucas and Ness could have had different movesets; even Ness could have, after all he never used those PK spells in Earthbound.

And Ike and Marth- *stops self*

The other point besides these 5 (6, sir!) characters is that there still are a lot of the favorites that got left out. And before you rag on me for 'whining about characters not being in', lemme just say that all major fans had a reason for supporting characters like Geno, Ridley, Krystal, Tom Nook, etc..

There were polls, more than one, of characters people wanted to see most. And they didn't make it in. Why? Even if you have the clones, why can't you have more characters than 35? They delayed the game 2 months, they had almost 3 years and 100+ people on it, and they couldn't make more than what they have now? It's only 10 characters more than Melee, and Melee was almost 6 years ago!

So forgive us for wanting more from a game that was hyped up by creators and fans alike. Oh, and even if we did overhype ourselves, how many of us are unreasonable? How many of us are threatening to boycott the game, starting flame wars on the boards, and cursing out anyone who disagrees with them? The way I see it, the people 'defending' the roster are the ones are being rude, cussing, insulting, and condescending towards others. It's like they have a personal vendetta against anyone who DARES say bad things about Brawl.

***

You know what? Forget it. It seems that people who are dissapointed are going to be flamed and degraded for having an opinion no matter what they say. If your standards meet the game, fine. Who the heck are we hurting by saying we dissaprove of clones and a small roster in our most anticipated game.

Okay....you braught this upon yourself...You are a comlete idiot if you think that Ike is a Marth clone....

I really....I....um.

I have no idea how to respond to....

Nope. I can't do it. I can't flame people who flame themselves through their own idiocy.

P.S. Brawl has not been in development for 6 years. If you would do some research you would know that Iwata brought the idea up to Sakurai in 2005.

 

[BananaHammock]

I never said Pichu was as good as Marth. For someone who claims me doing alot of "putting words in my mouth," you sure do it alot too.

I don't care if tiers exist. They are highly irrelevant. They only appear relevant to people who decide they need outside factors to tell them who is a good character and who isn't. It's the SSB version of laziness.

The people I play(ed) with don't care about tiers, because they are useless once you discover that characters are unbalanced anyways, and the tier list is just a charted form of that. I don't see why you are trying to prove they mean anything more.

The evidence clearly contradicts the witness' statement your honor!

I REST MY CASE