People need to understand the real reason for our disappointment:

[DraginHikari]

Hm? The roster doesn't really bother me all that much 35 seems decent enough and there are penetly of choices and playstyles. But then again I never hyped myself too much over the roster itself. I understand some disappointment, I was one of those Megaman fans at one point during the speculation.

However, I find two things strange... first of all how flaky things seem, how people were praising the roster until the point where the remaining were revealed and now we have people barking what a lousy job the development team did. I guess I don't get the attitude about it overall.

My perspective on the clones on being left the same for me seems to be a matter of perhaps satifity the people who used those characters in Melee on a regular basis. I mean I've heard as many people maining some of them as much as the usual characters. Falco is a big example of this...

And actually unlike most people ROB isn't the character I'd drop that would be wolf but hey, that's not happening either

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I don't think anyone was ever praising the roster >_>

It was more like "Yes my main is back!" or "Yes, Krystal's out!"

 

[Cyrlous]

Huh, well this whole topic is quite fascinating to me, and I do understand why people are upset with the roster, but personally I am not. I got Ness, and that's all I ever really cared about. They could have replaced every single other character with really stupid choices and I would still be content because of Ness.

Now to address a few specific things:

Mega Man: I actually really supported his inclusion in brawl and was a bit sad to see him not make it, but Ness' reappearance pretty much nullified my sadness. Still, my condolences to my fellow MM supporters.

Krystal: I never liked her and never wanted her in, so I am pleased that she didn't make it. I do think that Wolf's semi-clonishness could have been HUGELY mitigated by simply having a different FS. I mean, honestly when was the Landmaster ever a serious part of Wolf's persona?

Geno: I was a pretty big fan of SMRPG but I never was greatly enamoured of Geno in particular. I was actually quite shocked to see that he had such a huge following. I was always neutral about Geno being in Brawl. I could see his uniqueness and interesting background leading to him having a cool moveset and a very solid place in the brawl roster, but I still just don't have the kind of emotional attachment to him that I do to either Ness or MM.

Ridley: Too darn big, end of story. He makes an AWESOME boss and I'm stoked to see him taking up that mantle. You can make whatever arguements you want against this point, but obviously Sakurai saw things the same way.

There are other characters I could address, but I think those are the main ones. In final summary, I am dissappointed by the clones (especially the cloned FS moves, I mean how lazy can you freakin' get?) but I love every single other aspect of this game, including the roster size which I think is perfect (40+ starts getting overwhelming and ridiculous) and all of the awesome modes which I know for a fact I will spend hours and hours playing and enjoying the heck out of.

 

[Knight-errant]

Cyrlous, it's good to see someone who's content.

I'm not trying to bash the disappointed people. Heck, I'm a tad disappointed myself. But I think the sooner we try to focus on the positive aspects of the roster (and the entire game itself) the better. I hadn't heard of smashboards when I started melee, but what from what I've heard Melee's roster had the same rejection when it was first released. But look now, everyone loves Melee.

Really I think all we need is some time to recover from the (understandable) disappointment, and time to discover new advanced techniques/strategies, etc.

 

[Wiseguy]

*Sigh* You guys do know that original characters take longer to program than clones, right? Sakuari and his team didn't decide to include clones over unique characters. The reason there are clones is because that's the only way they could include a roster as large as 35 characters in the time they were given. If they could have included more unique characters, they would have.

This roster is as good as anyone could have reasonably hoped for and I wish people would quit whining about it.

 

[hectichobo]

I've seen a lot of people on this board (and others) shouting about how the people who are disappointed with the final Brawl roster are just whining because their one favorite character wasn't in, or because nothing short of a 50-character of roster would have been enough for them, or other condescending crap like that. That's NOT why we're unhappy...at least not most of us.

Anyone who comes to Smashboards can see that there are literally hundreds of character support threads filled with people who would love to see one cool character or another. We all knew that it was going to be impossible for the roster to include everything. I wasn't expecting a roster that was perfect. All I wanted was a roster that I could look at and say, "Well, it might not have everything, but I can tell from these choices that they did the best they could with the time and resources they had." Nothing more.

That is NOT what I am seeing here. Young Link with his same cloned Link moves, with no cool new Wind Waker items like the Deku Leaf or Skull Hammer. Fox in the game three times over to the exclusion of many cool and unique alternatives. This does NOT say "best effort" to me. I'm not sure if it even says "laziness". It says they just didn't care about making the best of what they had. They didn't care about uniqueness or diversity in the playable characters. They spent all this time and effort on all these random modes and features, but couldn't be bothered with properly planning out the single most important aspect of the game?

If they only have enough time and resources to make 35 characters, then fine. I can accept that easily. But use that time to make the best 35-character roster you can! "Let's spend our precious time adding a clone of a clone of Fox" is not the thing a competent developer has any right to say when you have those sorts of limitations. If they had taken out Falco, Wolf, and Lucas, and instead put in, for example, Krystal, Ridley, and Simon Belmont or something, they would have used only slightly more development effort and the roster would have been twice as good as what we got. They made stupid, boring choices over and over for no reason at all.

We're not saying that we won't buy the game now, or that it will no longer be fun. Of course it will still be fun! It is because it will be fun that this is upsetting. This is a game that will probably played well into the next decade...maybe longer. Seeing its potential reduced so much because of a pointless, inexplicable error is a tragedy, and I don't see what's wrong with acknowledging that.

Dude, we have herd it 1,000 times. Theres nothing anyone can do about it. Just get over it. And im sick of hearing all this sh*t about "Clones". There really isn`t any "Clones". Every character has distinctive and unique differences. Like Mario and Luigi, or Ness and Lucas. I am sure that Ganondorf will have a unique moveset along with Toon Link, Falco, and Wolf. Now everyone stop saying that the roster is bad. It could have been made better, but seriosly anything can be made better. Think of how much worse it could be. They could have made 14 characters and made them all Pokèmon.

 

[Sandwich]

Everybody knows that the fact Chuck Norris was not included killed the game instantly.

 

[The Slayer]

Everybody knows that the fact Chuck Norris was not included killed the game instantly.

So true, so true. Although I pretty much given up on being mad at the roster (can't get mad on something you're never going to change), I'm not going to like ROB no matter how good that bucket of bolts is. Me and that thing is like AVGN using the Power Glove, in which that is not a happy sight.

 

[Black/Light]

Dude, we have herd it 1,000 times. Theres nothing anyone can do about it. Just get over it. And im sick of hearing all this sh*t about "Clones". There really isn`t any "Clones". Every character has distinctive and unique differences. Like Mario and Luigi, or Ness and Lucas. I am sure that Ganondorf will have a unique moveset along with Toon Link, Falco, and Wolf. Now everyone stop saying that the roster is bad. It could have been made better, but seriosly anything can be made better. Think of how much worse it could be. They could have made 14 characters and made them all Pokèmon.

Thank you for pointing this out. It gets on my nerves to hear "clones" are in brawl. The source of the term stems from "Model change characters" which is what Sakurai called them in Melee. He openly stated that they where the same character with only a different model/ set of stats and effects to their attacks.

Thats not the case in brawl. I think these characters should simply be called "alike characters" because there are many differences in not only stats and effects but also animations/ attacks/ stances etc. Lucas may be alike to Ness but is also massively different as we can see on the dojo/ Falco has a completely revamped move-set to reflect him being avian well keeping some Fox attacks/ Wolf is soo fare from Fox you might was well say that Falco is who he is closest to and even than he looks more like a completely original character who was loosely based on Falco-Fox from melee/ And I have seen Ganon pull some new moves out lately. . .(Can't say much about Toon Link, I don't see him too often in vids).

Using the true definition of where the origin of the word comes from I can tell you right now that theres no "clones" in brawl and semi-clone is just a made up word at this point. Best term to use imo is "alike characters" because thats going to be how Sakurai updates them on the Dojo. . .not as "model change characters" but as "alike but very different" characters.


And to stay on topic Im content with the roster. Every character looks to have a completely different playstyle and feel to them soo theres not much else I can ask for. (WOULD have liked a new female character other than ZSS but oh well. . . .)

 

[Kirby M.D.]

I'm still not seeing it. The problem seems to be you expected too much from the massive, world-shattering hype the game had thanks to the DOJO and SWF. I understand your disappointment, but still believe it's unfounded. Granted, LANDMASTARAN is a bit annoying, but the other "disappointments" are easily dispelled.

First off, Toon Link is most likely a re-imagining of Young Link. Young Link was a clone in Melee, now he's been Luigified and looks awesome. He's also a mix of WW and the GBA Links, who share similarities to Adult Link.

Final Smashes in general seem to be nice little additions to the game, and are rather unimportant in the long run. The time argument goes both ways; unique FSes along with everything else would have led to more delays or a hit somewhere else.

OP completely screws the pooch with the "Three Fox Clones" point: Wolf, and to a lesser extent, Falco have been proven to not be clones at all. At worst, they're as Luigified than Luigi in Melee. Also, OP says that "we're not disappointed due to their one favorite character getting in", but then uses Simon, Ridley, and f'ing KRYSTAL as better choices. You just need Geno and you'd have the four ****iest fangroups on this board. Getting rid of a needed villain, a Melee vet, and a character from a new game for those three seems like fan whims. Besides, two of those three characters are in the game, and Ridley's in twice. Twice, in a more fitting role as an uber-boss than as a fighter.

Your last point makes no sense, you're saddened because the game is going to be fun despite your wishes?! What the hell is that? You have a right to feel the way you do, but it's a completely petty reason to do so.

 

[otter]

I take a popular stance in saying that the roster is amazing, but they released the best characters WAYYY to early. If they released Sonic right before the Japan release, nobody would be crying about the Landmasters.

 

[Runeblade279]

Thank you for pointing this out. It gets on my nerves to hear "clones" are in brawl. The source of the term stems from "Model change characters" which is what Sakurai called them in Melee. He openly stated that they where the same character with only a different model/ set of stats and effects to their attacks.

Thats not the case in brawl. I think these characters should simply be called "alike characters" because there are many differences in not only stats and effects but also animations/ attacks/ stances etc. Lucas may be alike to Ness but is also massively different as we can see on the dojo/ Falco has a completely revamped move-set to reflect him being avian well keeping some Fox attacks/ Wolf is soo fare from Fox you might was well say that Falco is who he is closest to and even than he looks more like a completely original character who was loosely based on Falco-Fox from melee/ And I have seen Ganon pull some new moves out lately. . .(Can't say much about Toon Link, I don't see him too often in vids).

Using the true definition of where the origin of the word comes from I can tell you right now that theres no "clones" in brawl and semi-clone is just a made up word at this point. Best term to use imo is "alike characters" because thats going to be how Sakurai updates them on the Dojo. . .not as "model change characters" but as "alike but very different" characters.


And to stay on topic Im content with the roster. Every character looks to have a completely different playstyle and feel to them soo theres not much else I can ask for. (WOULD have liked a new female character other than ZSS but oh well. . . .)

Quoted for truth. Ganondorf has many different moves and plays drastically different than Falcon. Wolf is -nothing- like Fox, and Falco is also completely revamped. Except for the Landmasters, lol.

Toon Link is also quite different from Link, although I'd say baring Lucas he's the closest thing they've got to a clone, but still, both Lucas and TL are NOT clones, but luigified versions, as we have clearly already seen and been told by people who have -gasp- played the game.

I would have liked a few more characters to be sure, it could always use more, but I'm very content with the roster as it stands. =)

 

[Tunaria]

I take a popular stance in saying that the roster is amazing, but they released the best characters WAYYY to early. If they released Sonic right before the Japan release, nobody would be crying about the Landmasters.

That would have been a better strategy on Sakurai's part, though people would probably still whine about the Landmasters eventually. The problem here is that we got everything handed to us at once, instead of taking it in piece by piece.

The other problem was the release date. Japan got the game about a month before the US, not to mention maybe several more months before Europe and Australia., judging from the gaps between the releases on the previous Smash games. Most of the Smashers around here have probably seen already what Brawl has to offer, so there's not much surprise left in the game that is of any major interest. Even if people didn't check the video-links posted here, they still have to suffer through the bombardment of Brawl videos, info and such from the Japanese version through one major game-site or another(ie. Gametrailers).

Though I don't really see the Starfox-trio as clones, exept the FS maybe, I now completely fail to see why Dr.Mario, Mewtwo, Pichu and Roy were excluded from Brawl. I was under the impression that they didn't make the cut with the reason being they were clones, but Ganondorf and Toon Link completely contradicts that logic.

Dr.Mario? He was already quite different from Mario in terms of playstyle.
Mewtwo? Makes no sense why he was cut. He's not even a clone.
Pichu? Kinda the same case as Dr.Mario.
Roy? Same as Dr.Mario. I mean, they even gave Marth a new neutral-b though it wasn't nescessary.

Kinda ironic that the game's own hype became the source of disappointment.
A game can exceed the expectations of people by only so far, until it has nowhere to go but downwards.

 

[PSandNintendFreak]

Well I was dissapointed at first but then I thought:

What if,

Starting Roster: Mario, Donkey Kong, Link, Samus/ZSS, Kirby, Fox, Pikachu, Zelda/Sheik, Peach, Yoshi, Ice Climbers, Bowser, Ganondorf, Falco, Ness, C. Falcon, Jigglypuff, Luigi, Marth.

Unlockables: Mr. Game and Watch, Diddy Kong, Pit, Meta Knight, Pokemon Trainer, Ike, Snake, King Dedede, Wolf, Lucario, Sonic, Wario, Toon Lin, ROB(Robot), Captain Olimar and Lucas.

I think it wouldn´t be that dissapointing. But well the roster is not bad.

Please stop saying clones. Wolf is barely a clone, Falco IS the "Luigi of Fox" and Ganondorf is at least more different than C. Falcon this time(love his side B).
And Ness/Lucas are clones? WTF? So Ike and Marth are clones too right? They have both counter, both a combo at side B and launch into the air at up B? B is a chargable strike and they both have sword attacks.....so that what makes them clones?

The only full 85% clone is: Toon Link. Why not 100%? He has a different style and some of his attacks are very different(maybe he doesn´t move different BUT his attacks have different effects) and he´s much quicker than Link. And I allways played as young link in melee cause Link was TOO SLOW.....so I´m glad there´s a fast Link.

....that´s all I have to say

 

[MrOtter]

I can't believe you kids are still winging about the roster here.

Frankly I'd be happy with a release date confirmation.

Yes that's right. I'm British and I'm pissing and moaning about it all over the place. But seriously, you kids need to stop bawwing about 35 characters.

Protip: 35 characters is alot.

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

Whether the results are disappointing are based on one's own perspective. It is almost impossible for every (picky or not) person to agree on everything. (mega reference- "The Giver") Though some characters or gameplay didn't turn out how I wanted, so what. We all have to accept it, and yes, this idea is brought up too much.

 

[trevbang]

Just a quick question. Have you played brawl yet? Do you know these clones are actually clones. In melee the clones were identifiably so. They weren't even attatched to the regular roster. They were exactly the same. The clones we have here are NOT (as far as I can tell) exactly the same. Sure they share some moves. They still play very differently. The differences are still noticable. Luigi and Mario are not clones. They play very differently. Fox and Falco were very popular characters in melee. Adding a third similar yet different character makes sense for a very popular moveset. I really can't pass judgement until I play as each character but I think that you are still being overly critical.

 

[:034:]

Fox in the game three times over

I stopped reading here.

Because you're, oh you know, completly wrong.

 

[2007]

I heard that people found partial data for Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, and Roy. I guess Sakurai wasn't against clones by any means.
=2007=

 

[Cyrlous]

What would be the point of partial data? Downloadable content maybe?

 

[TerminalMontage]

Yup, DLC. It's just gotta be P: