People dropping Snake...

[Yumewomiteru]

one can indeed approach with bair, esp if you mix up with b-reversal and not bairing.

 

[llamapaste]

It's all MK's fault. I hate you Metaknight!

 

[TwentyTwo]

I guess you could say the game got more offensive, but I'd say it just became much more relentless when you see an opening. It might be the case where etecoon might be right, it might not be, time and research and working hard toward our character will tell us. We don't need to complain about what we don't have, we have to experiment. Our big weakness is probably being ledge trapped, because if we can have safe options on the ledge, that'll help our landing game because that's more options.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

one can indeed approach with bair, esp if you mix up with b-reversal and not bairing.

To begin with I don't see why any snake would ever want to be in the air. And the mixing up with b reversed nade i guess is ok but add up the frames of the jumping, nade pull, landing and then possibly a grenade grab or f tilt you might be better off running up and f smashing them for a surprise. the moment a top snake does this in tourney and does it effectively i will never talk about strategy with snake ever again or switch to ike as a main because i clearly don't understand snake.

 

[AfroQT]

I guess you could say the game got more offensive, but I'd say it just became much more relentless when you see an opening. It might be the case where etecoon might be right, it might not be, time and research and working hard toward our character will tell us. We don't need to complain about what we don't have, we have to experiment. Our big weakness is probably being ledge trapped, because if we can have safe options on the ledge, that'll help our landing game because that's more options.

If thats not related to aggressiveness...
I mean no offense but....lets be real here. How is that not like...the definition of aggressive play here.

 

[MiniTroika]

If thats not related to aggressiveness...
I mean no offense but....lets be real here. How is that not like...the definition of aggressive play here.

I think there is another trend to observe this year. In SoCal (I'm sure other places as well) mid tiers have been doing particularly good against Meta Knight. _X_ and TKD being prime examples of characters that aren't expected to do well against Meta Knight. But these players manage to do great.

While we can excuse my example by saying that "Oh but it's _X_/ TKD" I think attention should be payed towards these characters tools. Fox and Sonic are characters than can approach and play aggressively against Meta Knight.

I think that in 2010 the only way to survive is if you're fast enough to maneuver around Meta Knight and have at least ONE good kill move and set up.

Snake has nothing but kill moves but NO speed at all. People are learning to abuse Snake's weight. Being snake at low percents against everyone is a dangerous thing now

 

[etecoon]

sonic does well sometimes because he's a gimmicky character that is too bad to actually learn the MU against, fox could legitimately have a better MU vs MK than snake does though tbh

and I don't know if I'd say the metagame as a whole is becoming more aggressive, I think that people have realized that there is a balance, SOMETIMES being aggressive is better depending on the MU or your opponent or other factors, camping is still a great strategy in this game but snake lacks the *flexibility* to do much else, which is really what is key, the versatility to execute a number of different strategies

 

[napZzz]

It clearly wasn't TKD, I mean, look at all the other top fox players taking out the good metaknights....oh wait....

plz no more of this m2k style logic, everytime he's lost to a character apparently the matchup is even or something, its possible to outplay a character who beats yours and win, its just much much harder at a higher level of play

what foxes has tyrant/other mk's ever played compared to the mk practice TKD has ~_~

 

[etecoon]

no one said it was even.

 

[napZzz]

Its similar logic, he implied fox does better against mk than snake and that the metagame has evolved to ****ty mid tiers being able to take down mk randomly just because he's seen 2 player exceptions. This is the wrong thread for that anyways

snake sucks and thats why people drop him

 

[phi1ny3]

Just a note as to why people say TKD's wins against MKs are legitimate in any way, while DEHF has never really played a good fox prior to WGF, Havok and Tyrant BOTH have played against TKD a looooooooot, and they still struggle to beat him. Fox's options just happen to be very good against MK, especially in a neutral scenario. His vertical zoning really beats MK's traditional vertical game (and MK's horizontal zoning in the air's just a tad meh), full hop and double jump are very hard for MK to punish safely, he can either predict it, or stay grounded (and usually not get a reward because fox can force a lot of responses when player properly), because MK will never be able to do the optimal SH punish without getting punished hard in return. Also Fox has one of the strangest weights in fighting tornado or SL, it's seems ridiculous to use tornado in the traditional way you do in most matches because the risk associated is heaaaavy. Fox however does get gayed in certain aspects, especially CPs (then again, who doesn't?).

 

[TwentyTwo]

If thats not related to aggressiveness...
I mean no offense but....lets be real here. How is that not like...the definition of aggressive play here.

Well when I read aggressive play it registered to me, as the game being more offensive in general, and having less camping all together. I was saying what happens generally now, is camp for an opening and go for it, and not necessarily you're always going in and approaching no matter who you are. I think we're thinking the same thing, I just had a different definition for a word you used.

 

[napZzz]

I think what twenty two is trying to say is that people have improved alot at punishing and taking openings...which isn't really the same as flat out approaching offense

 

[Teh Future]

everyone should drop this stupid broken *** character so i dont have o play against him

 

[napZzz]

ic vs. snake is even

 

[Yumewomiteru]

ICs vs anyone else is in ICs favor.

 

[Master Raven]

and I don't know if I'd say the metagame as a whole is becoming more aggressive, I think that people have realized that there is a balance, SOMETIMES being aggressive is better depending on the MU or your opponent or other factors, camping is still a great strategy in this game but snake lacks the *flexibility* to do much else, which is really what is key, the versatility to execute a number of different strategies

I would have to agree with you regarding aggro gameplay there. I've been recently changing up my style since playing Seibrik's Wario a few weeks back so that I basically camp for the most part, but if I find a hole in someone's defense I WILL take advantage of any reliable aggressive options I can use and maintain that momentum until I can no longer safely attack, then I will go back to camping until the next opening. I think just going straight up hard camping isn't 100% safe unless you're on a stage that will benefit camping like that HEAVILY, especially vs certain characters like Sopo. At the very least, you may want to safely poke your opponent once in a while just to keep the damage up so he doesn't catch up to you if you're going to time him out, something that unfortunately Snake isn't very good at. (You can grab Snake out of just about ANY of his hitboxes, even jab)

 

[MiniTroika]

Its similar logic, he implied fox does better against mk than snake and that the metagame has evolved to ****ty mid tiers being able to take down mk randomly just because he's seen 2 player exceptions. This is the wrong thread for that anyways

snake sucks and thats why people drop him

I never meant to make people think that I said fox did better. What I'm pointing out is that these characters have a better chance against meta knight in the current meta game (snake still has a better chance) and won't get ***** for it. My reasoning is that people are getting better and faster at punishing with their character while snakes current game play is slightly degenerating.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of what I'm saying, nor have I claimed other characters to have better chances than snake against meta knight. I'm just throwing my 2 cents in for consideration

 

[etecoon]

Its similar logic, he implied fox does better against mk than snake and that the metagame has evolved to ****ty mid tiers being able to take down mk randomly just because he's seen 2 player exceptions. This is the wrong thread for that anyways

snake sucks and thats why people drop him

fox isn't that much worse than snake tbh if you get beyond his chain grab/tilt lock problems, there's no reason fox can't have a better MU with MK than snake seeing as MK doesn't have anything like that on fox. they're both around 6:4 MK's favor anyway

 

[AfroQT]

**** you *****s i play aggressive and i play mk get at me.

gonna miss snake tho.

 

[Teh Future]

i heard from a reliable source fox beat mk 60-40