Peach's Matchups as the Metagame Progresses, IMO

[Nicole]

As more people learn how to play against Peach, and more Peaches learn matchups more fully, I think things will look something like this:

MK - pretty even (45:55)
Snake - bad (40:60)
Falco - bad (40:60)
Diddy - good (60:40)
Wario - even (50:50)
ICs - almost even (55:45)
Marth - bad (40:60)

Dedede - bad (40:60)
Gdubz - evenish (45:55)
Lucario - even or maybe a little for peach (55:45)
Pikachu - good (60:40)
Lolimar - even (50:50)
Toon Link - bad (40:60)
Zamus - same as ever (50:50)
Pit - same as ever (50:50)

ROB - pretty even (55:45)
Kirby - good (60:40)
DK - almost even (45:55)
Fox - a little bad (45:55)
Luigi - good (60:40)
Wolf - same as fox (45:55)
Ike - good (60:40)
Sonic - good (60:40)
Yoshi - a little bad (45:55)

I don't know much about any of the chars I didn't mention, additionally, there are fewer of those chars and their metagames advance more slowly.

I think Peach will get worse against projectile campers/spammers (falco, olimar, toon link) because she is too slow to get at them very easily (as they are constantly running and evading her) and their projectiles can knock her out of the air where she typically approaches very well. I think she will also get weaker against defensive characters who are heavy (yoshi, ddd, wario) as her lack of killpower will become magnified even more than it already is. However, I think she will become harder to hit for chars like GW and Snake, who are relatively slow and rely on reads to kill.

On the other hand, I think she will get stronger against characters that have weak projectiles/no projectile who cannot approach (such as kirby, rob, luigi, etc). I also think she will continue to do well against characters that rely on mindgames who she can simply outprioritize (pika, sonic).

I also think she will get stronger against MK (if he does not play ridiculously gay) because I don't think he has anything on her that he doesn't have on chars like diddy, falco, olimar, etc. who all do fine against him. I also think MK has reached the peak of his development more or less, and doesn't have many more tricks up his sleeve (which is a reason I think we are seeing him win less nationals), where Peach still has a good deal of growth ahead of her.

What do you guys think?

 

[Metatitan]

An interesting concept but at the moment it's all just speculation and opinion, which leads to a lot of bias. Btw Peach has the advantage on yoshi, not the other way around

 

[Gameswithgoodies]

why would her lack of kill power will be magnified as the meta game progress?
just wondering.

 

[Xyless]

Depends on how far the Peach players are willing to evolve. I've started dual-learning B-stick (special) and S-stick (smash), believing that doing so will give me a broader range of motion with less physical restraints, depending on the matchup.

However, many Peaches refuse to even experiment with it.

 

[z00ted]

Metaknight and Wario will never be anywhere close to even, and Yoshi is ridiculously easy.

Just my opinion :/

Cool concept though.

 

[Razmakazi]

i think mk is always gonna be like 60:40 at best.

Snake is a silly character but I'd say 60:40 at worst.

DDD is probably even-ish with Peach imo.

Falco and TL 55:45. They have good set-ups on Peach but I don't think it's anywhere near as gay as mk can be.

 

[Brawlin]

I don't think mk will ever be any better than 40:60 sadly. Wario will probably stay slight advantage. Marth isn't as bad as he may seem. The rest I think r possible tho.

 

[Meru.]

Meeeh, idk, I actually do think Peaches will get better at approaching/zoning and dealing with projectiles eventually, she does have the tools and I think they will be looked much more into. Its interesting you state this though, because its a thing Peach mains can work at.

I disagree with MK being pretty even, that fits Snake more imo. I also have to disagree with many of the 45:55 youve stated, most of them feel more like just even imo or possible advantages.

 

[Eddie G]

I disagree with at least half of your impressions Red. I'll explain why in detail when I have more time later.

 

[Xyless]

When it comes down to it, any fighting game with matchups that are under 6:4 are pointless to consider and are far more heavily determined by the player himself/herself.

 

[deepseadiva]

MK less than 60:40? It's a hopeful idea, but I can't believe it. He plainly just has too much. What is it your seeing, if I can ask?

IC's are free.

Olimar I think is always going to be a fluctuating ratio depending on purples. Without them though, his projectile isn't movement inhibiting. We can catch him.

Pikachu is free. ...probably.

Fox is gonna be 60:40 our advantage. This is without the 0-death.

An interesting concept but at the moment it's all just speculation and opinion, which leads to a lot of bias.

"IMO" means "in my opinion".

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

My thoughts are pretty much the same as Meno's, although I still completely wing the MU vs Fox. Meno, can you give me a summary of what to do in that MU?

I think its very optimistic for you to say MK will eventually be close to even. What if they 'play really gay'? I thought that's what all good MK's do to keep Peach out? I think you'll be hard pressed to find people who agree with you...then again IIRC the MK MU is your forte

Wario can be made as an exception from that list since Peach can't Bair camp DeDeDe or Yoshi like she can with Wario. Agreed with Pikachu and Sonic and just about everyone else


I definitely agree that Peach has a good deal of growth, I reckon she's still got some good stuff thats untapped atm. Like that FJ reverse Dair thing you do vs MK Nicole...I don't quite get it (I get reverse SH and Floating Dairs) but it seems to work well for you
A lot of it depends on the players imo though...you're all good at one match up in...if only we could smush you all up together to create one super duper Peach player

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm just SuperTheoryBrosing here. I haven't played Fox in forever. I'm just comparing the tools and threats and making a prediction.

• Fox's doesn't inhibit our movement with his projectile.
• His famed "verticle spacing" has to contend against utilt, uair, usmash, and nair - all of which I think are exceptionally strong.
• We combo and gimp.

Fox has... usmash? We're Peach. We're safe as hell. We can punish with usmash against his usmash on block. He dies at 70%~.

 

[Metatitan]

"IMO" means "in my opinion".

I know that but there's still too much speculation. I hope they turn into her numbers though, for Peach's sake.

 

[¿Qué?]

As more people learn how to play against Peach, and more Peaches learn matchups more fully, I think things will look something like this:

MK - pretty even (45:55)Ehh.. maybe. Our punishes CAN lead into 80% strings, but shuttle loop beats out our character.

Snake - bad (40:60)Yeah, pretty much.

Falco - bad (40:60) Yeah, sure. You need to be really careful, but if anything the Marth 60:40 is harder.

Diddy - good (60:40) Ehh. He still has killing power, and it isn't impossible to get hit by bananas. 45:55 Peach

Wario - even (50:50) Grab releasing Wario into sweet spotted upsmash is pretty **** good. I know his air mobility is rediculous, but we can always punish landings.

ICs - almost even (55:45) Yeah.

Marth - bad (40:60) YES.

Dedede - bad (40:60) Wow, really?

Gdubz - evenish (45:55) Shurr.

Lucario - even or maybe a little for peach (55:45) Wouldn't our ability to rack up damage quickly be a downfall for us? Maybe 50:50?

Pikachu - good (60:40) I can't agree with that. Pikachu can still kill rediculously early. At most 55:45 Peach.

Lolimar - even (50:50) After playing Logic's Olimar it's like 10:90.

Toon Link - bad (40:60) Not that bad. She's fast enough to get through the projectile spam, including quick draw. 55:45 Toon Link.

Zamus - same as ever (50:50)Mmhmm.

Pit - same as ever (50:50) Yeah, but I still hate Pit.

ROB - pretty even (55:45) Yeah, about.

Kirby - good (60:40) Hell no. 50:50.

DK - almost even (45:55) I say 50:50. The fact that he can kill early as hell is something we still need to consider.

Fox - a little bad (45:55) No way. I find it an easy MU for me. Your ground floated moves can really out prioritize what he has. Usmash is predictable and turnips shut him down, along with having a predictable use of Phantom. 55:45 Peach.

Luigi - good (60:40) HAHA YEAH. *Remembers Kyon's video*

Wolf - same as fox (45:55)I can sort of agree with this actually shifting back from 50:50 to 45:55 Wolf.

Ike - good (60:40) Naww. Maybe 55:45 Peach. He out ranges us in the air horribly, and we have bad aerial speed as well. He can still beat our air game. Turnips Turnips Turnips.

Sonic - good (60:40) Yeah. Just not against Espy, unless you're Nicole.

Yoshi - a little bad (45:55) I have never played a Yoshi and have no idea what to do in this MU.


I don't know much about any of the chars I didn't mention, additionally, there are fewer of those chars and their metagames advance more slowly.

I think Peach will get worse against projectile campers/spammers (falco, olimar, toon link) because she is too slow to get at them very easily (as they are constantly running and evading her) and their projectiles can knock her out of the air where she typically approaches very well. I think she will also get weaker against defensive characters who are heavy (yoshi, ddd, wario) as her lack of killpower will become magnified even more than it already is. However, I think she will become harder to hit for chars like GW and Snake, who are relatively slow and rely on reads to kill.

On the other hand, I think she will get stronger against characters that have weak projectiles/no projectile who cannot approach (such as kirby, rob, luigi, etc). I also think she will continue to do well against characters that rely on mindgames who she can simply outprioritize (pika, sonic).

I also think she will get stronger against MK (if he does not play ridiculously gay) because I don't think he has anything on her that he doesn't have on chars like diddy, falco, olimar, etc. who all do fine against him. I also think MK has reached the peak of his development more or less, and doesn't have many more tricks up his sleeve (which is a reason I think we are seeing him win less nationals), where Peach still has a good deal of growth ahead of her.

What do you guys think?

IMO of the MUs.

I'm confident in the Falco MU, anyway.

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

IMO of the MUs.

I'm confident in the Falco MU, anyway.

It's one thing to feel confident but you can still lose to good one none the less. Just remember that. Others can feel just as confident in the Peach MU.

 

[¿Qué?]

It's one thing to feel confident but you can still lose to good one none the less. Just remember that. Others can feel just as confident in the Peach MU.

Definitely. I'm just really happy about it now, and I don't feel so hopeless in it anymore. I've literally seen everything Falco can do, so I expect those options to come out one way or another. Everything he has is punishable.

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

Just do what you gotta do and lets see some results!!

 

[¿Qué?]

I wanna play in a tourney with all Falcos and Marths to get the practice.

 

[LanceStern]

Have you seen a Falco dthrow and buffer a jab out of it to hit you in the dthrow knockback?

What about down throw to BDACUS? Just look out for that imo.
I love the Falco matchup, it's my favorite

 

[Eddie G]

Have you seen a Falco dthrow and buffer a jab out of it to hit you in the dthrow knockback?

What about down throw to BDACUS? Just look out for that imo.
I love the Falco matchup, it's my favorite

Shugo does it to me all the time. T.T

 

[Two-Ell]

Lol Lance that crap is staple in playing flacos. Yes, flaco. Also Dthrow>BDAC only lands for mid %s. You should not be killed by it though.

 

[Nicole]

Well yes, all of this discussion is super theory bros. and it's just my opinion. I would have been shocked if anyone had agreed fully with my list.

However, I was curious to see everyone else's opinion, where they match up with mine, etc etc. Feel free to post your own lists and stuff, and explanations.

2 things before I go to my class though (because these are the MU's I feel most strongly about):

1) How many of you/have any of you beaten a good Wario/DeDeDe in the past couple months? I don't need a top top player, I just want to hear a good main of one of those chars that understands the Peach MU. And by beaten, I mean in bracket, in a MM, or in pools for the set (I think pools count, people care still). These MUs are currently even or in our advantage. We should be winning the set then, right?

2) For MK, by "ridiculously gay", I meant if he just sharks and planks, basically. Anytime he is onstage, even if he is camping and playing defensively, I don't think it's that bad. What I think he has on other characters = shuttle loop, ******** gimps, quick low lag moves, amazing capability to punish, and of course tornado. These are things he has on Peach too. I can't think of anything else he has against her. In fact, he shouldn't even gimp her. Peach racks damage on him well and should be able to have the percent lead a good potion of the time. I don't know why he should be so bad for her.

 

[Eddie G]

Last couple of months? No Wario or DDD heads on my mantle for that period unless you count Lain's DDD. Most recent Wario I've beaten is Blue R0gue, and he knows the Peach matchup very well, but to no avail. Muahahaha

 

[Nicole]

I edited my post everyone!! ^

 

[Razmakazi]

I practice w/ a good ddd that's taken a set off of most of the socal PR at one point or another. I haven't had a serious set with one in a while though.

As for wario there's rly none. I did my 5 dolla mm w/ jnig on sunday and I lost. I feel that mu is close anyway. I kinda pissed game 1 away last stock by buffering fthrow when I dash grabbed him instead of usmashing but those are the breaks I guess.

As for MK it's probably 60:40 at best imo. His sword beats everything other than turnips and fair's crown. His nado beats everything if Peach isn't grounded either. Even if he doesn't hit her he can do it safely. He kills her with more ease as well but it does take a lot of patience.

U shud've mm'd my mk! I go hard haha. Maybe next time coz I'm legitly gonna train it now. At any rate I feel MK solidly beats Peach in that MU but it's not as unwinnable as it used to be. But yeah, I'm gonna summon that Razmaknight on any Peach I meet lol.

 

[Metatitan]

I think Peach would do much better against metaknight (or anyone really) If she had a faster run/float speed, there's a lot she can't punish too hard because of it and dash attack becomes the main punishing tool =/

 

[Mikachiru]

I think Peach would do much better against metaknight (or anyone really) If she had a faster run/float speed, there's a lot she can't punish too hard because of it and dash attack becomes the main punishing tool =/

Play like Yami and make this MU 50:50 or 55:45 Peach.

 

[Razmakazi]

I think Peach would do much better against metaknight (or anyone really) If she had a faster run/float speed, there's a lot she can't punish too hard because of it and dash attack becomes the main punishing tool =/

nah. against mk dash atk is just gonna hit shield.

 

[Neon!]

After playing so many Peaches at MLG I'm convinced that her metagame is definitely improving. I don't agree with some of the ratios though.

 

[z00ted]

I beat T-Mac's DDD twice. MMs

Lost to Atomsk's DDD, took his Wario to last hit game 3 and lost. MMs

Beat Jnig's Wario in money matches and Krys' in friendlies.

 

[Nicole]

I beat Tmacc plenty also (beat him in tournament last month), I dunno if he counts or not, although he is a solid enough player who definitely knows the peach MU, but he makes alot of errors that better DDDs wouldn't (like Atomsk). I don't think he is at the same level that you are, Ill.

Last hit/closeness doesn't matter at all.

Jnig is legit.

I definitely am not saying that Peach should lose, but it does seem fishy to call MU's like Wario in her favor, or DDD even, when we don't win them very often (against good players). Ill, I know you lost to Krys in a MM, and I lost to him in bracket. Wario can be super lame when he wants to be, and he can really hurt Peach when she is recovering low (and she must be careful if she recovers high as well). I know I don't know Wario as well as I should, but it seems to me that the MU is much harder than we give it credit for, and that's why I ask who has beaten a good Wario lately. Or a good DDD for that matter. I think that MU is even for now, but I don't think it will remain that way.

Times are changing.

@Meno: I don't think I answered this fully/at all because I didn't notice it until later, but I think what it is that I'm seeing against MK is that he really can't handle Peach's priority, and he really has a hard time approaching her. MK's priority is transcendant but it isn't real priority like Peach - MK's moves do not protect him like Peach's do. I really don't think he can take her in the air. I am in the air alot against him (NOT FLOATING), I find nair and fair extremely effective, he has a hard time getting out of sh dairs, uair ***** him when he tries to come down (which he actually has a hard time doing), bair is just all around good. When he is dair camping, you can fullhop nair him with decent timing and trade hits (at worst). Who cares if you take the 6% from his dair? He will stop dair camping you if he keeps getting punished. Tornado? I love tornado, it's basically free damage for me with a nair. Shuttle loop OOS is still gay, but it's no different than Marth/Olimar who have great OOS options as well. Turnips aren't that necessary against MK, I think alot of Peaches focus way too much on getting turnips when they should be reacting to moves that he's throwing out (dairs, nados, ftilts, glides, dsmashes). Turnips are good off the edge, when he's trying to come back down to the ground, and if he likes to approach you in the air. Otherwise, forget 'em. You can also go out and try to gimp him. The most he can do is hit you back onstage as long as you aren't too low (and you know better than to put yourself between MK and the ledge).

 

[z00ted]

Nah whoever told you I lost to Krys' Wario in a money match be lieing.

I think DDD is 40:60, Wario is 55:45.

 

[Nicole]

^you? 10youtoldmesos

 

[z00ted]

I played him in friendlies lol, I think we went even.

I lost to Atmosk's Wario, thats what you may be thinking.

 

[Brawlin]

I don't see how the D3 matchup is even at this point of the metagame -_-

 

[Eddie G]

Good analysis on MK, Red. That's the path I've been taking on the MU as well. Kel played some matches with me a couple of weeks ago and told me to focus a little less on turnips when I'm in a neutral position against him; he said MK can punish it harder than with the expected nado if the MK player calls Peach on the pull quick enough, which was good advice.

Good stuff.

 

[Nicole]

I played him in friendlies lol, I think we went even.

I lost to Atmosk's Wario, thats what you may be thinking.

lol maybe so. either way, i wish i would have gotten to watch you play a couple warios. i only saw you play atomsk's ddd.

 

[LanceStern]

I don't understand the losing to wario... it should be free.

You should get at least 20 - 25% off of each grab you land on him. If not you can just rack him up and grab release... I gotta play better warios

 

[deepseadiva]

Have you perfected the freepull and bonewalk, Nicole?

You break-down of the match-up is impressive, but I disagree with the dis-emphasis on turnips. Sometimes they're her only punish against his stuff - remembering that turnips always go through his moves due to his transcendent priority. And considering the bonewalk, they're basically free and nonpunishable.

I agree in part though - I'm thinking back to when the Zeldas were arguing about Din's Fire. Someone came in and argued it was a worthless edgeguard, since it was going to be avoided anyway, and Zeldas should focus on other options, rather then sitting back and spamming a fruitless move. The board raged, even though, in my opinion, he made complete sense.

I can see the same idea here, but when the projectile is actually a strong combo-able punish, I can't see it as less valuable. :o