Peach's Float

[Bl@ckChris]

If peach's float lasted infinitely instead of for three seconds, do you think she would be broken as a character, or would it be something more to work around within the reasonable boundaries of the game?

also, does anyone take note of when it's clear peach is going to fall? the sparkles appear under her dress for the first 2 seconds. after the sparkles stop, she has 1 more second, and then she has to fall down.

i feel like that's when falcos should shoot lasers, but i'm just wondering if people have taken real note of it.

 

[Froggy]

Peach definitely floats longer than 3 seconds.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i was pretty sure she had sparkles for the first two full seconds, and then lost sparkles and dropped after the third second. i guess if someone wants to correct me they can, but that's what i thought i saw somewhere lol

 

[Wake]

I think it's like 4 seconds or something, and if Peach could float forever, she could easily stall a match and time people out by floating to some inaccessible area of the stage.

 

[Jockmaster]

yeah stalling would become broken...Peach would be banned

 

[darkatma]

what if she could only float if she were directly above the stage, and under a certain, reachable height?

it would still be a ridiculous tactical advantage

 

[Jockmaster]

hmm that would be cool, seems she would just float there menacingly and be impossible to approach

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Internally the game handles Peach's float through 4 repetitions of an animation labeled 295, each lasting exactly 48 frames. All three have stars under Peach, though they are steadily lessen in quantity/visibility. The last star disappears around frame 18 in 295 #3. Peach enters a 4th instance of the 295 animation which only lasts 5 frames before she begins free falling.

In total, her float lasts 149 frames which is slightly less than 2.5 seconds.

Thanks for the tip chris, I never noticed the stars!

 

[Xyzz]

When I first heard that Peach's float lasts about 3 seconds, I also didn't quite believe it... Then I tried it and came to the realization, that 3 seconds is simply reeeaaaaally long in Melee :D
I've rarely felt influenced by it lasting a finite time at all (:

 

[ShroudedOne]

What the HELL!?

I was testing this out in Melee yesterday with the timer on...and her float is only 2.5 seconds...but it feels like over 3 seconds in-game. I concluded that Melee severely warps my perception of time because it's super fast.

But why are there 4 instances of this 295 animation, if she only stays in the fourth for 5 frames? (even though each one is 48 frames, which under normal circumstances, would make her float about 3.2 seconds)

 

[Froggy]

I don't have a copy of melee atm, but I'm still having a hardtime believing that the float is just 2.5 seconds. Any chance the timer in melee is just really slow?

 

[_wzrd]

Well Sveet has it timed out in frames, so it should be accurate. also, I'm sure the timer is accurate as well. try it out yourself with a stopwatch, if you still can't believe it.

the time rising & falling may slightly alter your perception, as does the pace of the game-where in one second, multiple things may happen.

anyway, all that being said---it does feel longer. But I believe the empirical evidence that has been layed out.

 

[Tero.]

It should be noted that 1 Frame isn't actually 1/60 second there can be diffetences depending on the time you start the move.
I forgot where the post describing this was tho

 

[_wzrd]

IDK, I know melee runs @60FPS--so it should be 1 frame=1/60th

pal runs@ 50fps apparently, so maybe your thinking of that?

 

[Xyzz]

Pal can be run at 50 fps, but you can't play melee at that frame rate. At least not in any useful fashion.

 

[_wzrd]

hmmm- I know this isn't the best reference, but what does it mean when it says that here then?

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Frames

just curious..

edit**I just don't really understand the difference between the 60hz & 50hz. idk how that stuff works at all, but I read somewhere else here that it's usually at 50hz in pal. which is apparently 50fps?

 

[Boat Mode]

It should be noted that 1 Frame isn't actually 1/60 second there can be diffetences depending on the time you start the move.
I forgot where the post describing this was tho

Shai has a good description of this in his latest shai drop thread

 

[Tero.]

Shai has a good description of this in his latest shai drop thread

Yes! Thank you.

"Frame notation: Frame 0 is the point where you enter the first command, before the game has had time to translate the command into an action. So for instance if you shield on Frame 0, the shield comes up on the next available frame. When I say something like "down + shield = spot dodge" what I mean is that pressing down + shield during this frame will cause the player to begin a spot dodge on the next frame. There can be some confusion about specifying the time between frames, because a frame is not a unit of time. Exactly when "the next available frame" is depends on when you press the button. So you could press shield, for example, near the end of a frame and it would come out quicker than if you pressed shield at the beginning of a frame, even though it comes out on the first available frame, because the time to that available frame varies by up to 1/60th of second (or longer if the frame rate has dropped). So saying something like "Press down, then R three frames later" is necessarily ambiguous, because a frame is not a unit of time, and the actual timing can vary depending on when the button press was registered"

credit to Shai (Look up his Thread about shai Drops)

 

[RaphaelRobo]

That logic doesn't work at all. See what happens when I replace frame with second, and second with minutes.

"Second notation: Second 0 is the point where you enter the first command, before the game has had time to translate the command into an action. So for instance if you shield on second 0, the shield comes up on the next available second. When I say something like "down + shield = spot dodge" what I mean is that pressing down + shield during this second will cause the player to begin a spot dodge on the next second . There can be some confusion about specifying the time between seconds , because a second is not a unit of time. Exactly when "the next available second" is depends on when you press the button. So you could press shield, for example, near the end of a frame and it would come out quicker than if you pressed shield at the beginning of a frame, even though it comes out on the first available second, because the time to that available frame varies by up to 1/60th of minute (or longer if the second rate has dropped). So saying something like "Press down, then R three seconds later" is necessarily ambiguous, because a second is not a unit of time, and the actual timing can vary depending on when the button press was registered"

There's no difference. There are 60 frames in a second, and 60 seconds in a minute. To argue a frame is not a unit of time is to argue a second is not a unit of time. You would then be arguing that there is no such thing as units themselves, as there will always be a gap between each individual unit.

 

[rjgbadger]

a second is not a unit of time.

hey, you said it

 

[Geenareeno]

Raph I think what he means is that you can make inputs closer to the beginning of a frame that is already happening as opposed to the end of it so it will delay your move by slightly more than you think it will, but it's practically humanly impossible to notice the difference.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I know that, but he also said that makes a frame "not a unit of time", which is incorrect. You can start an action at the beginning of a minute, or near the end of a minute, and it changes the amount of time before the next action takes place (at the beginning of the next minute). Does that mean a minute isn't a unit of time? While he was correct about that, the he also said a frame isn't a unit of time because... well, because it's a unit.

 

[-ACE-]

by replacing frame with the word second you automatically assume a frame is a unit of time lol

although tero is correct, i don't think using frames as units of time is necessarily ambiguous (especially since the 60hz refresh rate should be extremely constant unless you are doing something like playing teams on FoD), although in the example he provided it is so.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

A frame should be a unit of time, because there should be 60 of them in a second, just like how there should be 60 seconds in a minute. Frames get messed up when the game lags, and seconds get messed up when life lags. Under ideal conditions, a frame is a unit of time.

However, what Tero says is correct. The gap between the current time and the next frame isn't always 1/60th of a second, but the gap between two frames is always 1/60th of a second. What shai said about a frame not being a unit of time is incorrect.

 

[Pink Reaper]

No, what shai said was just improperly worded. A frame ISNT a unit of time, since a frame can last longer or shorter depending on the game 30 Frames per second vs 60 FPS. Because of that you cant use a "Frame" as a proper measurement of time. Further since frames do last a specific amount of time(even if it's really really really short) there is a beginning and ending of a frame, which means there's a(n incredibly tiny) window of time that can make something start sooner vs later. Not really relevant though.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

while the gap between two frames is constant, the time it takes to get to the next frame depends on the last frame. A move overall taking a certain amount of frames will be constant to a certain amount of time, but using frames as far as a time scale in how actions should be inputted is tough, because of the dependent nature of the refreshing process.

it can be noted also that just as you say "you have 3/60th of a second to put your next move in" wouldn't work either, due to the dependent nature of frames. you might be able to do it in 3/60th or you may have to wait 3.9/60th of a second, depending on how early on the frame you did the last action. but this is more during input things, rather than length of move things.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

No, what shai said was just improperly worded. A frame ISNT a unit of time, since a frame can last longer or shorter depending on the game 30 Frames per second vs 60 FPS. Because of that you cant use a "Frame" as a proper measurement of time. Further since frames do last a specific amount of time(even if it's really really really short) there is a beginning and ending of a frame, which means there's a(n incredibly tiny) window of time that can make something start sooner vs later. Not really relevant though.

Melee is 60 fps, though, so I think we're assuming it's 60 per second. Obviously it changes depending on the game.

Other units of time, like minutes, seconds, an hours, also last a specific amount of time. They also have a beginning and an end. There's really nothing either of you have said that doesn't apply to other units of time, other than having to wait a little bit for your action to take effect. Even so, if I press a button on frame 1.5, and then press another button 3 frames later (4.5), then they come out on frames 2 and 5, which are 3 frames apart, so the interval doesn't really change. It's just rounding up, which we do all the time when talking about seconds and minutes.

 

[Tero.]

Frames are not a unit of time. Frames are pictures. The unit of time is a third (60 third = 1 second)
Melee just uses 60 pictures per minute.
So if you do an attack that takes 4 frames for the hitbox to come out this means the hitbox will be there on the fourth picture of the attack animation. If the game is running with 60fps all the time the pictures are going to change every third.

Like if your clock is making a sound (beep) every hour you wouldn't say a beep is a unit of time

 

[Pink Reaper]

Melee is 60 fps, though, so I think we're assuming it's 60 per second. Obviously it changes depending on the game.

Other units of time, like minutes, seconds, an hours, also last a specific amount of time. They also have a beginning and an end. There's really nothing either of you have said that doesn't apply to other units of time, other than having to wait a little bit for your action to take effect. Even so, if I press a button on frame 1.5, and then press another button 3 frames later (4.5), then they come out on frames 2 and 5, which are 3 frames apart, so the interval doesn't really change. It's just rounding up, which we do all the time when talking about seconds and minutes.

again you're misconstruing the point. A second is a consistent measurement of time. The amount of time a frame can last changes from thing to thing(not even games, obviously any form of projected media runs via frames) To put it into perspective a frame is like a Year. We use a "Year" as a measurement of time but the actual term "Year" simply refers to the amount of time it takes a planet to circle the sun. It's not an actual consistent measurement of time, it's a placeholder word. A Year on Mercury =/= a year on Mars. You're using "Frames" as a placeholder for 1/60th of a second, which, while true in Melee, doesnt hold true as an actual unit.

Further the point that was being brought up is that the game wont register half frames and such. You can input a move a move during the end of a frame or the beginning and it still wont register until the next available frame. But since the game doesn't differentiate between that amount of time something like "Three frames later" can refer to either 3/60 of a second or 3.5/60 of a second. There's an ambiguity because of the system.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

again you're misconstruing the point. A second is a consistent measurement of time. The amount of time a frame can last changes from thing to thing(not even games, obviously any form of projected media runs via frames) To put it into perspective a frame is like a Year. We use a "Year" as a measurement of time but the actual term "Year" simply refers to the amount of time it takes a planet to circle the sun. It's not an actual consistent measurement of time, it's a placeholder word. A Year on Mercury =/= a year on Mars. You're using "Frames" as a placeholder for 1/60th of a second, which, while true in Melee, doesnt hold true as an actual unit.

Further the point that was being brought up is that the game wont register half frames and such. You can input a move a move during the end of a frame or the beginning and it still wont register until the next available frame. But since the game doesn't differentiate between that amount of time something like "Three frames later" can refer to either 3/60 of a second or 3.5/60 of a second. There's an ambiguity because of the system.

Given that I agree with everything you said, I probably am misconstruing the point.

However, I do partially disagree with a year not being a consistent measurement of time. While a year may not be consistent, an Earth year is a consistent measurement of time. When we say year, it is often slang for earth year, which is consistent. The same goes for frames. Melee frames are consistently 1/60th of a second.

Also, if my clock beeps every hour, then why couldn't I use a beep to measure time instead of an hour?

 

[Youngling]

peach's float

 

[Bl@ckChris]

oh yeah that's what it's about.

it's long, but it's short.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Based on frame data, you can say the sparkles last for ~2 seconds, and the non-sparkles last for ~.5 seconds.

It's really useful info, which I will use to destroy Stingers when I get to State. He won't stand a chance against my Kirby - I won't even need to use my Ganon against him.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Peach waves her arms 4 times then starts to decend.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah i don't really use the sparkle stuff until i'm edgeguarding. if they're not paying attention enough, they might not know that they're about to start falling, so you can put a hitbox in a place that they'll have to fall into if they let themselves get that far.

 

[oukd]

what if once the 2.5 seconds runs out you could still float but Peach will start floating towards the closest blastbox until you stop floating? lol

 

[DerfMidWest]

What if that is the top?

 

[Kimimaru]

Peach's float is perfectly fine; no need to change it.