Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion - Forever Outdated :(

[PKNintendo]

Yea, Edreese, Peach is easy to juggle. She's always going to get hit by either the tail or head. The tail being much more of a problem. It's sooo stupid...

Oh cmon, your complaining about that?

 

[deepseadiva]

It's so terribly annoying not having my float PK. You don't understand...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

poor meno, helpless w/ o float. im a mixed bag on being ptk juggled though. sometimes i've been juggled other times i havent.

 

[Praxis]

Just do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyKO8ACH2_k

And this (1:51):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZyVnr84fA

And you win. xD

 

[gantrain05]

Just do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyKO8ACH2_k

And this (1:51):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZyVnr84fA

And you win. xD

lmao, poor ness and those grab release shenanigans, but at least he isn't wario =P

 

[Dark.Pch]

Guess I'll add to this. If Lucas is 60-40, Ness should be the same. I found ness easier to deal with then lucas. Also, he is not hard to gimp out of his recovery

*snipe with turnip
*take the hit of the thunder.

You can really but the pressure on ness. One of his better ways to kill you is his grab. A good Peach will not be easy to grab. So you should not worry to much about that. Next would be his Fsmash Follow by Upair and Bair. bair does not kill early. up air can if he catches you high in the air. Though that is not a move ness will just connect with so easy like that to even be a threat.

Peach has more options to kill ness then he does. One good approach he has is his Fair. Second best if anything than be SHFL bairs. which does not have alot of range so nothing to really worry about.

If ness would want to PK thunder you to a grab, DI out of it. only thing he would get out of that is a possible air attack if ANYTHING.

His Fair is a problem I hear people go on about, but that was already spoke on how to deal with. So no need to get into that one.

You can pressure Ness so hard and once he is off the stage, he is in danger. Peach's edgeguards on him are really a big problem on him. ether get gimped, KO or baited to grab the edge and we edgehog. We can also force you on the stage too get a possible KO out of it.

I say 60-40 Peach.

 

[_clinton]

Guess I'll add to this. If Lucas is 60-40, Ness should be the same. I found ness easier to deal with then lucas. Also, he is not hard to gimp out of his recovery

*snipe with turnip
*take the hit of the thunder.

Yes...because I'm sure every Lucas main thinks it is 6:4...but whatever

Do note that if you want to take the hit of Thunder you have like 20 frames before you'd eat tail and be hit by a sweet spot PKT2

And turnips are pretty easy to avoid overall...just like many other projectiles

You can really but the pressure on ness. One of his better ways to kill you is his grab. A good Peach will not be easy to grab. So you should not worry to much about that. Next would be his Fsmash Follow by Upair and Bair. bair does not kill early. up air can if he catches you high in the air. Though that is not a move ness will just connect with so easy like that to even be a threat.

Again on the whole grab thing...I mean a good Ness is pretty hard to grab as well...I mean really people...

Uair has low ground set ups in the air and on the ground...
Bair is stronger then Peach's Fair...
Fsmash is a punishment move...

Peach has more options to kill ness then he does.

Nah...

One good approach he has is his Fair. Second best if anything than be SHFL bairs. which does not have alot of range so nothing to really worry about.

Those legs of Ness' are a lot bigger up close when he is kicking you...just saying...
I mean his Dair's range is bloody large compared to what the move shows as well...

If ness would want to PK thunder you to a grab, DI out of it. only thing he would get out of that is a possible air attack if ANYTHING.

You mean PK Fire...and for the most part...I'd rather just A. Throw another one, B. Come in with a Dair, C. Your right...try for some sort of ground follow up

His Fair is a problem I hear people go on about, but that was already spoke on how to deal with. So no need to get into that one.

Yes...because them saying your Fair has more range even though I brought up the fact that the hit box changes really says otherwise huh?

You can pressure Ness so hard and once he is off the stage, he is in danger. Peach's edgeguards on him are really a big problem on him. ether get gimped, KO or baited to grab the edge and we edgehog. We can also force you on the stage too get a possible KO out of it.

Yes...because Ness doesn't have any sort of pressure game huh?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I just gave up on everything, I am done debating. Even though I can counter all that you just said.

Someone take my spot here.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

The thing with Lucas is that Peach's F Tilt can outrange and stop his aerials. That's what I've found when fighting him. I need to fight a good Lucas main though to put it into practice


Back onto Ness and Pk Thunder...

I've done some testing and this is what I've found. If Toad connects with the head of Ness' Pk Thunder, it will completely cancel it out no matter where it hits Peach. Peach MUST use Toad at the correct time however, like with all attacks Toad can counter. If the tail connects, Toad will be activated and Pk Thunder will carry on going. However, if spores connect with the Pk Thunder head, it will be cancelled out

It is possible to graze Peach with the tail to set the counter off and then hit her with the head provided the spores don't hit the head

I'd need to fight a good Ness again but regarding Thunder juggling, I'm not sure if Ness would have enough time to mess around setting up the whole tail whip ---> head shot if Peach used Toad

Advice to Peach mains: Watch how Ness uses his Pk Thunder. If you're desperate, I would reccomend Toad. If Pk Thunder is cancelled out, Ness finishes his Pk Thunder animation sooner than Peach finishes her Toad animation but only slightly. Thunder juggling wise, you'll have more than enough time to react to Ness doing something else

Advice to Ness mains: Watch Peach's reactions. The timing for Toad is actually really strict. Peach still has a decent area for error but it's still strict imo compared to other moves. Watch out for her aerials that can cancel out the Pk Thunder head. Aim to tail whip her but be aware of Toad cancelling out the head of Pk Thunder. Tail whipping to set the counter off and then hitting her with the head works but takes extra time

Now I don't main Ness but I was wondering - how will he actually tail whip Peach? (No smart arse remarks like 'use the control stick dummy'). Pk Thunder isn't highly manuverable and because Peach's Nair covers almost her whole body except for the top/bottom, I can't see Ness getting many tail whips without the head hitting Peach's Nair for example. Has anyone got any Peach vs Ness videos where Ness does a good job of juggling Peach, mainly via tail whipping? That would help imo

 

[Levitas]

This is how Ness tailwhips peach.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Levitas, your diagrams are beautiful. Now I finally know what goes on in the Smash Researchers group xD

jk jk

Hmmmmmm...provided Peach uses Toad correctly, the counter will be activated by the tail and then...

Well the thing is, judging by your diagram...where can the PK Thunder head go? By the looks of things, any direction it takes will result in the head being hit by Toad/the spores...hmmm

 

[Levitas]

Usually at this point, I anticipate an airdodge for the target to try to avoid the tail. Meaning I'm free to loop it down (clockwise) and catch them with the bolt.

Peach falls slow enough that edrees is technically correct that ness generally won't be able to get a setup where she can't get the bolt with something, but that's in the same way that it's difficult to grab fox out of drillshine pressure in melee. If you don't have a DJ, you'd better hit the bolt, or it will hit you.

That said, it's pretty simple to avoid with a DJ, in which case the ness has to prioritize either zoning you away from him (defense) or hitting you.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Well looking at your diagram, I'm fairly sure that if Peach was tail whipped like that and she used Toad, she'd bounce above it because of the Toad Bounce or the counter would set off and Toad/the spores would hit the head part

Interestingly in my tests, the way I tail whipped Peach was to graze her head with the tail to set off the counter and then bring the Pk Thunder round to hit her from behind. She wasn't very high in the air though so I don't think that would be practical for Thunder juggling

Having another look at the diagram, couldn't Peach Nair/Dair the Pk Thunder head as it passes below her before the tail end reaches?

 

[Levitas]

Yeah, that's the window I'm talking about. The PKT is only in range of the dair briefly if at all, though.

If Peach uses toad and doesn't fall with the counterbox out, it won't trigger, meaning she's in lag with a toad and you're already looping the PKT around toward her back.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I still don't see the big deal with PKT, since you guys are just basically talking about heads and tails of it, but the tail end of PKT doesn't do anything but damage and hitstun, it doesn't juggle anyone really except at the extreme higher percents. Wouldn't it just cure it to just be hit by the tail end, and then fastfall into a Dair?

 

[Levitas]

I ...

The point of the tail is to combo into the head. Which it does.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

The point of the tail is to combo into the head. Which it does.

If Peach doesn't fast fall.

 

[Levitas]

Explain yourself. Does fastfalling come into play when you're stunned in the tail not moving?

Note that a legit death combo is tailwhip to PKT2, and the opponent is trapped in the tail the same way they are here.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

This is how Ness tailwhips peach.

If that's proportional, Peach's down air has the horizontal range to hit that head before the tail touches her.

And i LOVE you for these diagrams. Ness is so cute!!

 

[Levitas]

Ness's right eye is about twice as large as his left eye.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Depends on the position of the opponent I suppose, but aren't we assuming Peach is above Ness? Then how does that combo work since the Tail does nothing but hitstun. It's not like it lasts forever.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Because while you're in tailwhip hitstun, the head can come back around and hit ness and allow him to PKT2 hit her while she's in tailwhip hitstun. If you want to Levitas, we can play online (i know online sucks) and you can spend 10 minutes trying to tailwhip me and I promise you that you'll be lucky to get 1 or 2 if I'm tring to attack the head and approaching the PKT while its coming at me, as to not allow a tailwhipping angle.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Because while you're in tailwhip hitstun, the head can come back around and hit ness and allow him to PKT2 hit her while she's in tailwhip hitstun. If you want to Levitas, we can play online (i know online sucks) and you can spend 10 minutes trying to tailwhip me and I promise you that you'll be lucky to get 1 or 2 if I'm tring to attack the head and approaching the PKT while its coming at me, as to not allow a tailwhipping angle.

But if Peach is above Ness, How can he hit himself to go upward unless he's on a semi-solid platform?

 

[Levitas]

Sorry Edrees. I don't do online regardless of reasons. It just isn't fun (especially considering it would be cross country, lol)

I think we might have had some miscommunication. I only mentioned the tailwhip to PKT2 combo to make the tailwhip to bolt combo easier to verify.

Another diagram because I'm having fun with this:

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I'm aware you can still DI during tailwhip's hit stun., so Peach probably wouldn't be in the same place.

 

[Levitas]

Which way are you gonna SDI? If it's down, you'll still be getting hit by the tail a bunch. If it's up, I can still chase you with the bolt (since it's not inside my radius of curvature). If it's right, I just have to continue the circle a little more to hit.

Unless you're talking about SDI out into an airdodge, in which case you'll get hit by the as soon as your airdodge ends. If for some reason, you can get the SDI and airdodge to line up perfectly, I suppose it might be possible to get away with getting tailwhipped a bunch after the airdodge instead of getting the bolt, but you're still getting hit a bunch (that's proably 5 hits at 1% each, only 3% less than a bolt hit anyway).

The moment you're hit by the tail initially, you're pretty much stuck with getting hit by the bolt.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

SDI Up and Dair.

Dair cancels PKT.

 

[Levitas]

Try it sometime.

 

[PKNintendo]

Guess I'll add to this. If Lucas is 60-40, Ness should be the same. I found ness easier to deal with then lucas. Also, he is not hard to gimp out of his recovery

*snipe with turnip
*take the hit of the thunder.

You can really but the pressure on ness. One of his better ways to kill you is his grab. A good Peach will not be easy to grab. So you should not worry to much about that. Next would be his Fsmash Follow by Upair and Bair. bair does not kill early. up air can if he catches you high in the air. Though that is not a move ness will just connect with so easy like that to even be a threat.

Peach has more options to kill ness then he does. One good approach he has is his Fair. Second best if anything than be SHFL bairs. which does not have alot of range so nothing to really worry about.

If ness would want to PK thunder you to a grab, DI out of it. only thing he would get out of that is a possible air attack if ANYTHING.

His Fair is a problem I hear people go on about, but that was already spoke on how to deal with. So no need to get into that one.

You can pressure Ness so hard and once he is off the stage, he is in danger. Peach's edgeguards on him are really a big problem on him. ether get gimped, KO or baited to grab the edge and we edgehog. We can also force you on the stage too get a possible KO out of it.

I say 60-40 Peach.

Dear lord...

Number of people who think Ness matchups=Lucas matchups 99+1.
Dark Pch, of all people... I can't even flame you,because I've respected you for so long...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MZyVnr84fA
Dear lord.

Wii is broken still, but memory serves...

EIDI will let Ness escape that! Yeah for Ness (poor Lucas XD, he gets shafted)
But the use of EIDI instantly is not realistic. Maybe after the second grab.

The Super Grab break. (Spinning the control stick like a madman, and flicking the C-stick) inputs so many commands, that allows Ness to break free incredibly fast.

So Super grab break (just in case) + EIDI a slightly happier Ness.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I LOVE your sig dude.

 

[MrEh]

I LOVE your sig dude.

Thanks, I get that all the time. ^^


Seriously though, jokes aside...

Number of people who think Ness matchups=Lucas matchups 99+1.
Dark Pch, of all people... I can't even flame you,because I've respected you for so long...

Well, Ness does have the Fair and that freakishly strong spike/bthrow. Lucas has...um...a better Fsmash. >>

(poor Lucas XD, he gets shafted)

Lucas was cursed in so many ways that I'm starting to believe that Sakurai hates him.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Lol MrEh

I'm not cool enough to make my own diagrams so I'll just have to explain my stuff

Another diagram because I'm having fun with this:

If you tail whipped Peach like that and she used Toad, the counter would be set off by the tail but Peach would get hit by the head when it curves round and hits her in the back. So in this case, Toad wouldn't work

I don't see why Dair wouldn't work though as it would hit the head whilst Pk Thunder was travelling right?

Does anyone have any fairly recent Peach vs Ness videos? I don't want this whole tail whip thing to turn into another *gulp* one of those moves

 

[PKNintendo]

I LOVE your sig dude.

Thanks!

Lol MrEH.

And yeah, Lucas has a better Fsmash. XD

 

[Levitas]

Rickerdy, you'd have to SDI up at the correct point in the tailwhip enough to get out and stay out for the remainder of the tail. you'd then have to dair in such a way that peach's feet never touch the tail but do touch the bolt. The circled PKT forms almost a complete circle, so this is much more possible on paper than in practice.

2 conditions:

1. SDI up at the right point. no SDI = combo directly to bolt. too soon = you get hit by end of tail, combo'd into bolt. too late = your dair doesn't come out in time. strict window.

2. Dair at the correct timing and spacing. no dair = you get hit by bolt. too soon(or low) = your foot hits the tail and you're combo'd into bolt. too late = your dair doesn't come out in time. another strict window.

The biggest reason it's hard to escape this combo is because SDI as soon as you can doesn't work well.

I don't know what you mean by one of "those moves". The fact that ness has this doesn't mean a huge deal, it's an 8% followup once off of an upthrow, usmash, uair, or at high %s, a utilt.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Rickerdy, you'd have to SDI up at the correct point in the tailwhip enough to get out and stay out for the remainder of the tail. you'd then have to dair in such a way that peach's feet never touch the tail but do touch the bolt. The circled PKT forms almost a complete circle, so this is much more possible on paper than in practice.

2 conditions:

1. SDI up at the right point. no SDI = combo directly to bolt. too soon = you get hit by end of tail, combo'd into bolt. too late = your dair doesn't come out in time. strict window.

2. Dair at the correct timing and spacing. no dair = you get hit by bolt. too soon(or low) = your foot hits the tail and you're combo'd into bolt. too late = your dair doesn't come out in time. another strict window.

The biggest reason it's hard to escape this combo is because SDI as soon as you can doesn't work well.

I don't know what you mean by one of "those moves". The fact that ness has this doesn't mean a huge deal, it's an 8% followup once off of an upthrow, usmash, uair, or at high %s, a utilt.

I see. So basically, it's a matter of how the players react to each other? I apologise if I'm sounding a bit thick - I've never had a Ness try to tail whip me properly before :/ I'll fully appreciate it if I do/if I see it happening (I still love the diagrams though!)

Sorry, the whole those moves was a joke D: I don't want this to turn into a massive debate over one specific move and whether this is some anti Peach move on which neither side can agree...we've had stuff like that in the past

 

[Levitas]

I don't see a conflict here at all. Maybe Edrees saying "I don't fall for ness traps", but nothing particularly argumentous.

 

[thesage]

I like to spam fair a lot vs. Peach and then upthrow her to pkt. Then peach does her weird stuff. That's the matchup pretty much lol.

 

[_clinton]

I don't see a conflict here at all. Maybe Edrees saying "I don't fall for ness traps", but nothing particularly argumentous.

This statement does not exist...everyone falls for Ness traps...it is natural way...

Also the amount of Lucas hate is making this thread annoying to read...really people...

 

[gantrain05]

Sorry, the whole those moves was a joke D: I don't want this to turn into a massive debate over one specific move and whether this is some anti Peach move on which neither side can agree...we've had stuff like that in the past

um, i sure hope your not talking about the pikachu discussion, i don't want those crazies in here again lol.

 

[deepseadiva]

um, i sure hope your not talking about the pikachu discussion, i don't want those crazies in here again lol.

Gan, please edit your post and misspell Peekachu or something.

We don't need them searching for it and coming back.