Parachute Parade! - GnW Social Discussion

[Alphicans]

Marth is so much more capable of punishing every approach we have. Even more than snake.
Marth's fair, DB, and Up OoS pretty much beat down all our aerials.
Marth>>>> Snake
Edit: Grab release-> Tippered Fair. Guaranteed kill at higher %


Alphicans-can you explain the super patient part?
Like camp and bacon/what should you do?

I am just saying that you shouldn't have the mentality going into the match-up that you have to approach all the time. If you have the lead, avoid his grenades and wait for him, never approach if you don't have to.

 

[Noraa]

snake is 60-40, marth is 60-40

 

[PentaSalia]

I've been seeing what you've all been talking about and i got alot to say

I haven't really played a Snake that knew how to fight a G&W, so I can't really say much on him, but I really don't like playing Marths.

Just been looking at this board for like...forever, I just haven't been talking. But I feel I should be more active.

Welcome=p

): Oh gawsh! It must just be me. </3 Or I know Lou thinks the same, and Penta use to think the same. I know some local GnWs that also think the same.
But,

Welp, at first I thought so, too. I mean I have a top Snake in my city. But even then I lose to not so good Snake's, either. There was one not so good Snake that I fought. I've been CP'd Snake 5 times in the last few weeks. And the last two tournaments I got knocked into losers by Snake and then knocked out by Snake. (Such bad luck~)

As for Falco being worse than Snake... Lol. No way! It's totally even-ish. You can nair or uair his side b, smashes aren't that hard to land since he practically runs into them. Lasers aren't hard to deal with. Upb is really good in this matchup. If you get close or jab, upb away. I've faught a lot of Falcos (randomly.) and trust me, I hate the matchup. I really don't like fighting Falcos. But I'm looking at it from a perfect Falco PoV and a perfect GnW PoV. GnW has things on Falco, Falco has things on GnW. I still don't like it, and I risk losing to a Falco each time I play one. Spacies are really scary.

I mean, Snake is easiest one of the hardest matchups. You have to look at matchups from the perfect GnW vs. the Perfect characterx. I can see him being easy to juggle. However, you have to approach him. And a lot of my Snake's don't just kill themselves (I wish it was that easy.) I can't exactly bait him because his tilts beat me. And once GnW is grab it's over because his roll is so bad. Maybe it's because I'm just playing pro Snakes. It's not that easy, honestly. People watch me, I spoke to a lot of pros, and they totally said they could see where I'm coming from and they all suggested another character. I spent MLG sitting down with a lot of top players talking to them, asking questions, and getting answers. And not just top players but also GnWs, too.
Like I said, you really can't see matchups based on "well, I beat x so that makes the matchup even." But instead from a pro level. Snakes tilts beat a lot of GnW's options. Sure, GnW smashes may be able to land but Snake will still live for a long time.
The problem with GnW vs. Snake is
Snake totally outprioritize GnW.
Snake's Ftilt beats, bair, fair, nair (not even approaching. Just slowly getting closer and away ftilt still will hit.), dtilt, and ftilt.
His Utilt beats dair.
I can see GnW utilt being useful because Snake's pretty big.
Explosives. GnW HAS to approach. Like I said, from a perfect Snake PoV they won't kill themselves. Just like pro Snakes. When GnW approaches, he's going to get ftilt.
GnW getting grabbed pretty much = dead. GnW roll is terrible. Expect to be utilt and you will probably die.

Snake has so much on GnW. I mean, I think it's winable. Anything's winable. No one is perfect. However, a perfect Snake vs a perfect GnW GnW will lose.

So once again. You can't really say, "I think this character is hard because I'm bad at the matchup." Sure I'm terribad at the Snake matchup. I'm pretty bad at the Falco matchup, too but I can totally see why Falco vs. GnW is even.

As for vs. Marth. No I totally think that's hard, too. But I totally can see Marth being easier than Snake. May be not by much but I can see it. Marth matchup you have to be patient. Let Marth come to you if you have to. He's easier to gimp. Just bait with Marth a lot. Upb away if you have to. Get in, get out. Make him come to you. Dtilt, bair wall, etc. Get away. Get in, get out. You can do that with Marth, Snake not so much. Snake you have to get in, and you will get hurt. You can't just stand there because of explosives. I mean, if you really wanted to you could stand there and hope you don't take ANY damage and sit there for 8 minutes and hope you get a hit in last 15 seconds. But honestly guys.

Phew that was long. XD;

Also, welcome to the boards for the people who are posting!

@Banhammer, That's really too bad. TT__TT Brawl Minus is fun, though! Hope you come back!

just letting u know Im not directing this towards you, it's in general lol

lol nononoonononono
im sorry, but Snake is NO way harder than marth. The thing about Marth that makes this MU so difficult, is how all his aerials,where G&W is specialized in, shuts down most of our options. Marth doesn't have to camp,he can easily approach us without getting punished if done correctly. Once he gets in, its a guaranteed 20-30% and sure you can upB but now what?,you're above him lol. At least against snake, you can up b and easily make it back to safe ground but smart marths will follow you and try to bait you into their smashes,grabs, or uair which beats dair if timed correctly so you have to becareful how you even land. Not to mention,his tippers kill us at 70-80,worse than snake lol. It's not impossible tho but it requires you to be close to perfect with your approaches and the only way you'll win is if he's a bad/mediocre marth and you're smarter than him lol.

now the snake MU is 4:6,for many reasons. The only things that should be killing us is UTILT and Bair(and ftilt when it's fresh and we're at high %'s). IF you you're wise about your approaches,you should be living until at least 130% each stock. His grenades should only be killing us when we're at an extremely high % and nobody should be dying from land mines <,<. About his c4,you just have to becareful.about it,is all and never lose track of it. The snake MU is pretty much a test of how good your bair spacing is. Of course it is given that we are going to get hit by his grenades when we try to bair him sometimes but if that's really your BIGGEST problem against snake,then idk how to put this=[ but you have to work on your bair spacing,it's bad lol. nade spam is also another common problem alot of players face but you have to look at this from snakes PoV,he only his TWO grenades to use. If you find they're camping you with nades,camp for a minute(or two) and figure out his pattern,there's only so much he can do with grenades. Same when he's above you,think about it from snakes PoV,his only options are really taking out a grenade and/or breveral,just uair or upb him if he's holding a nade.


but ya,snake leaves himself open more times then it may look. Don't let the fact that HES SNAKE affect ur thinking about this match up,it's doable. A lot of people have tried Cping snake and nade camping against me and usually end up getting 2 stocked because they simply leave themselves open too much. You need a really good eye for this match up.
Pro snake vs G&W is very doable, but any Pro marth will just destroy you lol.

Right after dthrow Snake's going to utilt you. Even before getup attack. A Snake isn't going to sit there and waste his shield.

Also, talked to more people and yeah I forgot. I take back what I said about juggling Snake. I can't see it because of b-reversal grenades.

simply mix up your get ups o.o. Sometimes get up and B,or sometimes roll away. i know it's not much but we don't get completely ***** by dthrow

U-air > reversal grenades.

Aggressive Up-Bing also forces him to airdodge a lot more.

Snake's F-tilt is annoying, but only really hits directly in front of him, and can't really anti-air much. His U-tilt is a good anti-air, but D-air beats it, and it's only safe on block if he keeps it completely fresh.

And usually when he's grenade camping, I just run up and try to grab him. He's more annoying if he mixes in grenade shieldgrabs here and there, and usually my response to that is fullhopped aerials.

THIS

Play really patient vs MK and you can win, but not vs snake. Today, I think you have it really mixed up lol. Your experience with the top snake in your region (who is it?) really has you at a bias .

lol no...MK can just be patient back.

Hi G&W Boards!

I got no PMs for G&W mentors . Please show your support by helping fledgling G&W mains!

Penta shoot me a PM if you wanna be a part of this. Are you watching this season of K-ON btw >:^(

k ill pm you lol...

I am just saying that you shouldn't have the mentality going into the match-up that you have to approach all the time. If you have the lead, avoid his grenades and wait for him, never approach if you don't have to.

THIS

 

[Lightning Tiger]

I was talking about MK. not snake.

 

[PentaSalia]

oh gee xD
major edit

i meant "snake is no way harder than marth"

not Marth is no way harder than snake

lolx_x
derp



@lightning
was meant for todays quote;o

 

[Lightning Tiger]

@ penta. I was refering to alphicans post. cuz originally i was asking about the mk match up.

 

[Alphicans]

You guys misunderstood. I was commenting on how today said that you can be patient vs mk and win. I meant like, how could it be possible to be patient vs mk and win and not snake? There is no way in hell you can be patient vs MK unless you somehow get a lead (not likely).

 

[kewl]

too lazy to read whatever has been discussed LOL

i just uploded like 10 vids mine.

www.youtube.com/PanamaGamingBoards

The matches mine vs xSwrd were friendlies, i was basically trying out new stuff and taking care of my cousins at the same time (Johns). He's still the best diddy kong here, should be ranked in the PR but he doesn't attend many tournies. Plus he plays a very strange Diddy, lolol.
Also I got 0 - death on game 7. ):

The GW ditto is where I played the most serious. ;P Anyways, enjoy that ****, i havent had vids in about 6 months.

EDIT: Plus theres this vid, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw89bvkDl1c for some reason it isnt showing up on the channel, but whatever. That's the only "serious" vid i got vs xSwrd a couple of days before our friendlies shown at top.

 

[Today]

I think Marth is extremely hard. But I feel as though Marth it's easier to mix up against. And I think that both are still really hard. I'm still looking at this as the perfect GnW vs the perfect Snake. Meaning a perfect Snake won't leave himself open most of the time. That's how matchups are usually suppose to be seen as. Don't get me wrong. marth is hard. And the perfect Marth is just as hard or heck it may be harder. But I totally think Snake vs. GnW. Not Pro GnW vs. Pro Snake. But Solid Snake vs. Mr. Game and Watch SS is pretty difficult.

Of course you can beat a pro Snake. You can beat a pro Marth. It will be hard but it is doable! Anything is since humans aren't perfect.

@Alph, You can totally be patient against MK. Meaning don't just run in and do a bunch of crazy things. Sit down and think about it. Think like the time is going slowly. Honestly, that's how pro players think. Time is slow for them. They think. That's why a lot of pros can react to anything and change up things quickly. Being patient just means don't just go in. And Snake and MK are two different characters. So that statement makes no sense.
However, being patient against MK makes sense. I've played tons of pro Metaknights. Metaknight honestly is my second easiest difficult matchup next to Diddy. I've played an MK that knows the GnW matchup. He's one of the top MKs. And me being patient and not just going in and bairing or whatever makes it a lot easieir.
Want to know why? An MK that knows the GnW matchup, if you bair or anything he WILL Shuttle Loop. So if you're just going to just go in and do whatever he'll Shuttle Loop. SL destroys GnW. GnW's dair is useless because of MK's utilt. So what do you do? Be patient. Pretend you're going in. Be slow against him. He'll probably accidental Shuttle Loop and then get punished for it. And if that happens you can mix things up. Eventually he'll lose concentration and it'll be easier.
This is a Metaknight that knows what to do vs. Game and Watch, by the way. Maabye MKs that doesn't know what to do vs. GnW may be a bit easier where you don't have to work as slow. But being slow vs. MK works out really well.
I really love fighting Metaknights and I love fighting Diddy Kongs. They're easy for me. especially since I get to play an MK that knows the matchup. And this is what I learnt. And overall, it made me become a better player. I became smarter, and time slowed down for me which allowed me to think and mix things up and react to peoples options. I'm serious here. After playing that MK for so long and just being smarter about the whole thing I started placing top ten. Lol. I really love the MK matchup.

Also, there is no issue with being able to win against Metaknights and lose against Snakes. That just means that I have a harder time fighting Snakes and an easier time fighting Metaknights.

 

[Alphicans]

Today, once again you're misunderstanding what I am saying. I agree playing patient vs MK is your best option, but your initial claim was that playing patient vs MK works, but not really vs snake, which is complete BS. Also, I don't really know if there is any way to vs MK without getting absolutely **** on. The only thing that saves us in the match-up is the fact that him using tornado is actually risky, but then again he really does not need it at all to win.

Also, your advice for playing against MK was pretty much to try and mindgame him into doing stupid stuff... I mean sure that's a good idea, but if that's all we can do to win, then we have absolutely no chance.

EDIT: You talk about a perfect snake lol. Perfect snakes wouldn't be that good, considering none of their aerials would help at all. Perfect GaW would beat a perfect snake, because once snake got in the air it should be a stock. I am not even gonna consider snake's dthrow due to the talk of perfect game play, and GaW's air game is more than good enough to avoid getting grabbed. Either way, bringing in "perfect" X vs "perfect" X is silly anyways, and I don't think has much to do with any sort of discussion.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

Who is this MK you are playing? @ today.

 

[Today]

Today, once again you're misunderstanding what I am saying. I agree playing patient vs MK is your best option, but your initial claim was that playing patient vs MK works, but not really vs snake, which is complete BS. Also, I don't really know if there is any way to vs MK without getting absolutely **** on. The only thing that saves us in the match-up is the fact that him using tornado is actually risky, but then again he really does not need it at all to win.

Also, your advice for playing against MK was pretty much to try and mindgame him into doing stupid stuff... I mean sure that's a good idea, but if that's all we can do to win, then we have absolutely no chance.

EDIT: You talk about a perfect snake lol. Perfect snakes wouldn't be that good, considering none of their aerials would help at all. Perfect GaW would beat a perfect snake, because once snake got in the air it should be a stock. I am not even gonna consider snake's dthrow due to the talk of perfect game play, and GaW's air game is more than good enough to avoid getting grabbed. Either way, bringing in "perfect" X vs "perfect" X is silly anyways, and I don't think has much to do with any sort of discussion.

When did I say it never works? I didn't say it wouldn't. I have no room to talk because I don't know how to fight Snakes.

And no. It's not mindgame him into doing stupid stuff. Sure, it's a plus. But I didn't say it was the best option. I only added it because it was a plus. Most MKs do mess up because they're human. Also, we can still win. Why not?

Nah. GnW still has flaws and Snake is a lot better than GnW. Instead of perfect how about the best, the top, the #1 character. What I'M saying is, you cannot base matchups on PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Meaning, "GnW beats Snake 6:4 because I beat Snakes all the time and so it's easy for me." But instead look inside both characters, see what Snake has and see what GnW has. What can GnW do against, Snake and what can Snake do against GnW. Can Snake cancel out all of GnW's options? Can GnW do the same? Sure they can. I'm not saying it's impossible. However, GnW has flaws and will lose to Snake. Same with a Captain Falcon vs an MK. CF has flaws and will lose to MK despite being perfect or the top or whatever. Who do you think will win? The best CF or the best MK? Skills and everything is equal, however MK is a better character. So he has the advantage.

@Lightning. I live in Ohio. We have OS, Kel, and M2k. Kel I've played the most since he lives not too far from me. All top and good MKs. There's another named DJIscrusnuggie (sp), whom is not as great as the three I mentioned but is still really good. Midwest also has J u d g e, whom is extremely good and places high at nationals. I never played him so I can't say much, but from those three I have played before. There are other MKs that aren't as known as those three and not as great as they are. But I still play them.

But what I'm saying because of this I'm pretty experienced in the MK matchup. And I fought some top MKs at MLG that's not from the Midwest. Annnd I did pretty well against them. Even they were surprised and I got recognized. I just so happen to be better at the MK matchup and suck terribly at the Snake matchup. That's just me. I'll probably be bad vs. Snake. And just because I can beat MKs easily doesn't mean I don't recognize MK is hard. Trust me. I knooow he's really hard. But from this I've gotten better as a player overall.

 

[SFA Smiley]

You're forgetting that being a better character will not necessarily win you matchups.

Snakes better overall but against GW he doesn't shut us down like you are saying he does(whereas someone like marth has a moves that shuts you up)

What's the hardest aspect of playing him you find?

 

[MrsSaturnandWatch]

"Guys, did you know that you can chain air grab release Meta Knight on the moving platform on SV into a free Fair? You'll probably never grab them there though unless they have bad spacing lol."

D:

 

[indifference]

Hey I don't post a lot on the boards at all. I just recently got back from a tourney in Northbrook called Don't Blink 4. I had fun and all, but I noticed a few things, but one of them stood out the most...

I had a crummy approach...

Now from reading this thread, all of you keep talking about how "Man Bair just sucks as an approach and this and this..." I'm just a guy who knows a few things about my char, but not everything obviously, however one thing was very solidly stamped in my mind...

G&W was really famous back in "good old days" for an approach that used to be dubbed "unbeatable..."

Now I understand from this thread and the tourney I just went to, this statement is obviously NOT TRUE anymore, but now here is my question...

"Why don't we all work on trying to make a new approach for our beloved character?"

I'm going to be honest, I have seen a few posts like that, however they weren't really expanded on, so why not? Why don't we just develop a whole, brand new, "unbeatable" approach? Everyone talks a lot in this thread, its freaking 153 pages long! If everyone chats in here, why not just start sharing ideas to develop a new approach right here?

 

[overgamer]

Because too many people starts knowing how to punish or shut down regular G&W aproches. Down Throws are all tech'ed, turtle get's SDIed, etc etc.

 

[indifference]

Yes I know that, but why not start to DEVELOP a new approach for G&W? See your response to what I said earlier just changed the conversation direction from developing a new approach to telling us once again how much his old approach sucks. That is why G&W will never be good again because many of can't change our old habits, or even try to see the possibilities of new ones...

 

[overgamer]

Yes I know that, but why not start to DEVELOP a new approach for G&W? See your response to what I said earlier just changed the conversation direction from developing a new approach to telling us once again how much his old approach sucks. That is why G&W will never be good again because many of can't change our old habits, or even try to see the possibilities of new ones...

because there's no way to change everything. Bair's a Bair. Nair's a Nair. Won't change much. The only real way to be really good with G&W now is to be unpredictable. Easy to say, hard to do in practice.

 

[indifference]

Yes, I know Bair is Bair and Nair is Nair, but what about the OTHER moves he has? You're making it seem like that is the only thing you can do. I know there are other things G&W can utilize besides those, and I was thinking that the G&W board can work together on developing a new kind of approach for today's meta game...

 

[rPSIvysaur]

How exactly do you expect that to happen? You can't just all of a sudden build an "approach". You have to use the things you have. Which Gdubs seems to lack.

If you're going to think the way you are thinking, the best advice would be "you have to be smart and look for openings", which is why MU's like MK are incredibly hard.

 

[Alphicans]

Yeah lets just take a character, and try and pretend like we can change his moves. By now we know his issues, and his limitations. He's not top3 in the game anymore, or even top 8, but I think this whole below lucario thing is BS (lol). GaW's approach is pretty underrated now a days though, it's not that bad. Bair isn't a bad move, like some people like to say it is (praxis lol), but techniques have been "discovered" to deal with it. Basically, just try and accept that GaW is a limited character, and isn't MK who has unbeatable approaches, but he has enough to work with to win any match-up. Be optimistic, but don't be foolish... Ok?

 

[UTDZac]

Guy, I figured out how to do UpB -> Bucket -> Double Jump !!

This is revolutionary!!!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Guy, I figured out how to do UpB -> Bucket -> Double Jump !!

This is revolutionary!!!

My goodness! Now we can approach!!!

 

[SFA Smiley]

Yes, I know Bair is Bair and Nair is Nair, but what about the OTHER moves he has? You're making it seem like that is the only thing you can do. I know there are other things G&W can utilize besides those, and I was thinking that the G&W board can work together on developing a new kind of approach for today's meta game...

Well like they said, we can't change GW's moves but you can approach unorthodoxally (hope i used that right)

GW is all about using a predictable character and being unpredictable with him

I use rising fairs/bairs> Bairs or crossup bairs, sometimes dairs or nairs, sometimes airdodge to the ground and grab

sometimes i still sh bair approach (it's not as bad as long as it isn't all you use)

and stuff like that

 

[2-2]

Guy, I figured out how to do UpB -> Bucket -> Double Jump !!

This is revolutionary!!!

Explain how this is useful plox.

 

[UTDZac]

Explain how this is useful plox.

I'll explain if you guys can tell me how it's done consistently

 

[indifference]

Just don't use your double jump when you UpB? Anyway I'm not looking to be made fun of here, I know that no one can change any of G&W moves, I just wondering like Smiley Face was saying if there was a better way of approaching. It just seems like nothing like that has happened yet, so I'll ask one last time. Is their any other way for G&W to approach that is utilizing more of his moves?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Mix-ups between Dash Attack and Dash Grab, but they are really risky if you whiff.

 

[Praxis]

Yeah lets just take a character, and try and pretend like we can change his moves. By now we know his issues, and his limitations. He's not top3 in the game anymore, or even top 8, but I think this whole below lucario thing is BS (lol). GaW's approach is pretty underrated now a days though, it's not that bad. Bair isn't a bad move, like some people like to say it is (praxis lol), but techniques have been "discovered" to deal with it. Basically, just try and accept that GaW is a limited character, and isn't MK who has unbeatable approaches, but he has enough to work with to win any match-up. Be optimistic, but don't be foolish... Ok?

Bair is bad.

Go ask Oki. He didn't believe me till TP5

 

[Alphicans]

Yeah but he probably used it as an attack, I don't...

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Bair&lt;Nair. Trufax.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

Where's the video for punshing MK's tornado?
I need to watch it again cuz I keep screwing up on the timing.
any tips?

 

[UTDZac]

Where's the video for punshing MK's tornado?
I need to watch it again cuz I keep screwing up on the timing.
any tips?

Just search "mk weakness" on youtube. Should take you to my video.

 

[cemo]

i've done the mk weakness bonus a couple of times, have trouble getting up the up-b out sometimes though.
do i just mash it?

 

[UTDZac]

It's really hard to get out of the tornado once it sucks you in. I haven't found any reliable way to pop out right before it finishes.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Well, if don't DI the first one properly, it's hard to get out. You're best bet is QCDI up and try to up-b.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly it's important to be EXPECTING the Tornado when you're trying to punish it. It's not called the best zoning tool in the game for no reason.

I mean you can definitely punish it on reaction. It's just the Tornado is MUCH better at punishing than any other attack in the game. Most of the time I just feel like the Tornado only gives me trouble because I forget that I'm supposed to respect it.

After that, it's fairly simple to throw out something that you know beats it. All Smashes (D-smash is the most disjointed iirc), Dash Attack, Judgement, and whatever U-air/Up-B shenanigans you might have available. D-air beats it as well, but has to be directly from above.

 

[Laem]

Most of the time I just feel like the Tornado only gives me trouble because I forget that I'm supposed to respect it.

sigged xDDD

 

[Alphicans]

It almost seems like GaW is one of the few characters that tornado isn't a good idea to use. Unfortunately, that doesn't affect the match-up at all .

 

[Noraa]

^^ 100truths