OU Balancing: Finding a standard!

[Circa]

All this project is doing is taking a huge step in the wrong direction by putting broken elements into the metagame right off the bat. Dragon Priority? Dragon/Fire Charizard with enough stat buffs to potentially be Uber? Drizzle and Drought out of Ubers?

This isn't balancing Pokemon so far, its HORRIDLY UNBALANCING it.


THAT is my point here.

So you just break everything and BAM, suddenly it's pretty balanced. Or at least on some level it is. Plus, this is ****ing trial and error Ulti. I think you're forgetting that fact. Exploring things that we once believed to be broken only to discover whether or not we were actually right is GOOD. ****ING GOOD. If you never test anything, then you never get ANYWHERE. So quit talking about how it's going to ****ing break the system and actually try to be ****ing productive.

People have been screaming "Oh **** it's broken" to almost EVERY project we've done so far, and it's really starting to get on my ****ing nerves. Everyone just needs to shut the **** up and actually give it a shot before passing judgement.

/ragequit

EDIT: Obviously there are some things that clearly sit in the broken category. I'm not going to deny that. But considering you're arguing about a metagame that we've never even tested, seen, or even heard of before, I think it's not too far off to assume that we really can't determine what is or isn't broken; especially when the judgements we make are based on the metagame we do know that is completely different from the one being proposed.

 

[ss118]

Anyone who wants to help, feel free to PM me or hit me up on AIM. Seeing as releasing betas into the public isn't the best idea. But oh well, I digress.

 

[kirbyraeg]

The only problem that I see with this approach of radical overhauls is that there is no basis for testing. The best way to see if things work and to balance the metagame as a whole is to look at stat and movepool distributions and make gradual, incremental changes and see how they turn out.

Frankly, type balancing is a crapshoot because people will always disagree on it, although I think what I posted is at least a small step in the right direction. Going numerically with 3 SE and 3 NVE type hits ignores the pool of pokemon we have to work with, and if the goal is to create 200 or however many fully evolved pokemon in OU on an almost equal footing, we still have to think about what differentiates those pokemon from each other. The main thing I worry about is that with movepool buffs and stat buffs, pokemon will begin to become too similar to each other. Yes, they'll all be viable, but it's not really possible to have 200 pokemon all be different with their own utility and niches if we systematically go around and boost every pokemon's movepool until we deem them "fit for OU play". Pokémon will be bland with this degree of modding simply because there will be fewer and fewer reasons to use a specific pokemon since after buffs such a pokemon might have very few distinguishing characteristics between an OU and a buffed UU pokemon. Let's take an example

Also, in particular I think altering abilities is the kind of later-stage fix we would look at after elevating the lower tiers and rebalancing ubers to fit in OU, since movepool alterations would arguably make a bigger difference EXCEPT with weather-inducing abilities like you're interested in balancing for OU play, Art. Ability micromanagement will just force pokemon into certain niches rather than letting them naturally be filled for themselves with the existing abilities that they already have (yes a lot of NU pokemon have really crappy abilities but those can be dealt with on a systematic scale similar to the stat boosting rules you'd use to begin balancing those pokemon). Particularly with auto-inducing weather, I think the weather should override before the pokemon takes its action like in this example scenario:

Trainer 1 sends out Lv 100 Dragonair
Rain begins to fall!
Trainer 2 sends out Lv 100 Tyranitar
A sandstorm brewed!
---
Dragonair asserts its Drizzle!
The sandstorm was replaced with rain!
Dragonair used Hydro Pump!
It's super effective!
Tyranitar asserts its Sand Stream!
The rain was replaced with a sandstorm!
Tyranitar used Crunch!
Dragonair takes damage from the sandstorm!

i.e. before each pokemon takes its action, it would assert its weather ability to overwrite any existing weather on the field, therefore the weather of the slower pokemon would carry over through to the next turn. Also, these abilities would only last for one turn after the pokemon that created it exits the battlefield by either fainting or switching out.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Anyone who wants to help, feel free to PM me or hit me up on AIM. Seeing as releasing betas into the public isn't the best idea. But oh well, I digress.

Get in contact with Chibo and Mood4Food over PM, VM, AIM, or whatever fancies you.

They're both working on a server. And Mood4Food has actually been the closest to completion IIRC.

-Terywj

 

[ss118]

The only problem that I see with this approach of radical overhauls is that there is no basis for testing. The best way to see if things work and to balance the metagame as a whole is to look at stat and movepool distributions and make gradual, incremental changes and see how they turn out.

To be frank: we don't have the time or amount of members for such a tedious process. The best, accurate, and fastest way to work this is by making changes and then putting everything together into one big ClusterF. This way, we can see how each pokemon individually performs in the specific metagame. If something is too broken or something isn't used enough, we'll dumb it down/ boost it up till it fits the niche. The "basis" for all of these pokemon is to play on the haxless Garchomp's level: though obviously not in the same manner. If everything was like Garchomp where it can be thrown on a team and seem to work well: how would teams be made? It would actually move people forward into trying to execute a single strategy rather than trying to check threats.

Frankly, type balancing is a crapshoot because people will always disagree on it, although I think what I posted is at least a small step in the right direction. Going numerically with 3 SE and 3 NVE type hits ignores the pool of pokemon we have to work with, and if the goal is to create 200 or however many fully evolved pokemon in OU on an almost equal footing, we still have to think about what differentiates those pokemon from each other.

I think before we start moving onto perks for indicidual pokemon we figure the physics for which "our" pokemon world works in. This includes stuff such as the type chart, how status' work, and weather effects. Then we can proceed to fix up the pokemon after that point.

The main thing I worry about is that with movepool buffs and stat buffs, pokemon will begin to become too similar to each other. Yes, they'll all be viable, but it's not really possible to have 200 pokemon all be different with their own utility and niches if we systematically go around and boost every pokemon's movepool until we deem them "fit for OU play". Pokémon will be bland with this degree of modding simply because there will be fewer and fewer reasons to use a specific pokemon since after buffs such a pokemon might have very few distinguishing characteristics between an OU and a buffed UU pokemon.

Well isn't that our job? The big problem comes when you look at the multitude of pokemon that share the same typing, such as Normal/ Flying, Bug/ Poison, and even something like Dragonite vs Salamence. You have to be able to give both pokemon something to bring to the table, whether it be something similar to the bulk vs speed argument or priority vs support or whatever.

Let's take an example

Also, in particular I think altering abilities is the kind of later-stage fix we would look at after elevating the lower tiers and rebalancing ubers to fit in OU, since movepool alterations would arguably make a bigger difference EXCEPT with weather-inducing abilities like you're interested in balancing for OU play, Art.

Well I'm glad I did something right. =)

Ability micromanagement will just force pokemon into certain niches rather than letting them naturally be filled for themselves with the existing abilities that they already have (yes a lot of NU pokemon have really crappy abilities but those can be dealt with on a systematic scale similar to the stat boosting rules you'd use to begin balancing those pokemon).

You make it sound like pokemon having certain niche's is a bad thing. Would we rather have the pokemon not be used at all? If the niche is being overlooked, we'll boost it's ability to do other stuff so that it is looked at.

Particularly with auto-inducing weather, I think the weather should override before the pokemon takes its action like in this example scenario:

Trainer 1 sends out Lv 100 Dragonair
Rain begins to fall!
Trainer 2 sends out Lv 100 Tyranitar
A sandstorm brewed!
---
Dragonair asserts its Drizzle!
The sandstorm was replaced with rain!
Dragonair used Hydro Pump!
It's super effective!
Tyranitar asserts its Sand Stream!
The rain was replaced with a sandstorm!
Tyranitar used Crunch!
Dragonair takes damage from the sandstorm!

i.e. before each pokemon takes its action, it would assert its weather ability to overwrite any existing weather on the field, therefore the weather of the slower pokemon would carry over through to the next turn. Also, these abilities would only last for one turn after the pokemon that created it exits the battlefield by either fainting or switching out.

uhhhh that's nice and dandy but that eliminates stuff such as sand's sp. defense boost. Not to mention it'll be a BlTCH to program. I like it, but w/e. We have to work within the realms of reality, and this, while it is reality, is very hard to create.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I certainly don't want further complications in status conditions, please.

-Terywj

 

[ss118]

it was an example, I assure you. Though he may be the worst about it, I promise Ampharos won't be the only thing spreading paralysis around like crazy. Hence, I think the 1/4 chance of not attacking needs to go: it's bad enough having 1/4th speed without that crap.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

it was an example, I assure you. Though he may be the worst about it, I promise Ampharos won't be the only thing spreading paralysis around like crazy. Hence, I think the 1/4 chance of not attacking needs to go: it's bad enough having 1/4th speed without that crap.

Alright. Thanks for letting me know. Just wanted to voice my opinion on the matter. =)

-Terywj

 

[kirbyraeg]

To be frank: we don't have the time or amount of members for such a tedious process. The best, accurate, and fastest way to work this is by making changes and then putting everything together into one big ClusterF. This way, we can see how each pokemon individually performs in the specific metagame. If something is too broken or something isn't used enough, we'll dumb it down/ boost it up till it fits the niche. The "basis" for all of these pokemon is to play on the haxless Garchomp's level: though obviously not in the same manner. If everything was like Garchomp where it can be thrown on a team and seem to work well: how would teams be made? It would actually move people forward into trying to execute a single strategy rather than trying to check threats.
I agree that we don't have the userbase to actually go through and incrementally work through things like we should, but I think a simple place to start was the general stat changes I suggested (+10 stats/+5 Spe for UUs, +20/+15 Spe for NUs, cap boosts at 110 base) and work from there. If we give individual pokemon too much focus I think that we'll lose sight of the entire metagame and not be able to balance the bigger picture.


I think before we start moving onto perks for indicidual pokemon we figure the physics for which "our" pokemon world works in. This includes stuff such as the type chart, how status' work, and weather effects. Then we can proceed to fix up the pokemon after that point.
If we're talking about status ideas, we could rework some of the mechanics on a very basic level like saying paralysis is just a 25% chance to not attack and 1/2 speed reduction, starting toxic damage at 12.5% but having it increase at the regular 6.25% rate, but I think status and weather mechanics are fine already (minus dumb crap like the acid rain glitch).

Well isn't that our job? The big problem comes when you look at the multitude of pokemon that share the same typing, such as Normal/ Flying, Bug/ Poison, and even something like Dragonite vs Salamence. You have to be able to give both pokemon something to bring to the table, whether it be something similar to the bulk vs speed argument or priority vs support or whatever.
Those were some minor things that I tried to address in my own personal type effectiveness changes: recognizing that there are not only a lot of crappy pokemon but also a lot of pokemon with the same type combinations that have to be made better. It is our job but it's something that would take more in-depth testing after simple status changes.

You make it sound like pokemon having certain niche's is a bad thing. Would we rather have the pokemon not be used at all? If the niche is being overlooked, we'll boost it's ability to do other stuff so that it is looked at.
What I'm doubting is not the necessity of niches within Pokemon, but there actually BEING enough niches for each pokemon to fill. I don't think it's possible to boost every pokemon up to a level where they will all be useable to the same degree as non-sand veil chomp, which is why I think that bringing NU and UU into OU play in a very general level should be our primary goal rather than making sure that each pokemon can fill a unique utility. By virtue of their movepools, they already can bring something unique to the table, but if we go to the extent of giving them an "OU-level" movepool, they start being less differentiable and merely known for the niche differences which we create within them. This is already true as it is but the element of surprise is also removed when we know what exactly they've been given to make them stand out. Take for example expanding on Dodrio's Baton Passing options, giving Pidgeot nice mixed attacking stats and an expanded special movepool, and Fearow gaining some extra speed/attack and a nice ability like Adaptability. Each of them would become known for those niche options that were given to them, and would only be known/differentiated by those compared to other Pokemon choices that could be used on a team. Take this and apply it to every NU and UU pokemon and I just don't see how it's possible to differentiate every single thing that could be used.


uhhhh that's nice and dandy but that eliminates stuff such as sand's sp. defense boost. Not to mention it'll be a BlTCH to program. I like it, but w/e. We have to work within the realms of reality, and this, while it is reality, is very hard to create.
That was just a pet idea of mine, and the weather would only be renewed while the pokemon with that weather-creating ability was out, which would mean two weather inducers would override the other's weather only while they were on the field (and as such things like dragonair would only bypass sandstorm spdef boosts with their own special attacks while they were on the field). I certainly don't know how to code that, but it's probably the closest we'd get to a balanced all-weather mechanic in OU just because of the fact that it lingers for only a turn after the pokemon leaves the field. There's no need to change existing abilities like Sand Stream to do this, but rain and sun could do this and it would be an effective way to both interrupt weather teams and counter some of their strategies. That, along with spreading weather-interrupting abilities would diversify the metagame even further.

yeah, some thoughts. I have no coding experience so I can't help directly but I feel like these ideas are most definitely worth mentioning.

 

[ss118]

I agree that we don't have the userbase to actually go through and incrementally work through things like we should, but I think a simple place to start was the general stat changes I suggested (+10 stats/+5 Spe for UUs, +20/+15 Spe for NUs, cap boosts at 110 base) and work from there. If we give individual pokemon too much focus I think that we'll lose sight of the entire metagame and not be able to balance the bigger picture.

OK I admit I didn't quite fully understand your initial suggestion: I thought it was just leaving the UU's alone after the boosts. If the boosts are the minimum and after that we start editing them specifically, I see no problem. We could still have the time to identify how a pokemon would perform(or doesn't perform) in the metagame and allow us to change them appropriately.

If we're talking about status ideas, we could rework some of the mechanics on a very basic level like saying paralysis is just a 25% chance to not attack and 1/2 speed reduction, starting toxic damage at 12.5% but having it increase at the regular 6.25% rate, but I think status and weather mechanics are fine already (minus dumb crap like the acid rain glitch).

I already stated my opinion on changing paralysis to no chance to not attack and keeping the 1/4th speed drop: you can design a pokemon to take paralysis, you can't design them to be useful after not attacking three times in a row. I like the idea of Toxic actually being able to be stalled out after a certain amount of turns(think starts at 12.5%, adds 12.5% per turn, caps at 75% and then the pokemon with the status is healed from it after the 75% damage one, or something like that).

Those were some minor things that I tried to address in my own personal type effectiveness changes: recognizing that there are not only a lot of crappy pokemon but also a lot of pokemon with the same type combinations that have to be made better. It is our job but it's something that would take more in-depth testing after simple status changes.

Changes to the type chart I believe should happen first, though they need to be made with in mind to the current metagame and how it is centralized. For example, in my changes I did three major things: made Dragon a worse defensive type, made steel a worse defensive type, and eliminated all 4x SR weaknesses by removing Flying's weakness to rock. A lot of your changes don't make a lot of sense at times and it seems you're looking to make some already bad types worse and some already really good types great.

What I'm doubting is not the necessity of niches within Pokemon, but there actually BEING enough niches for each pokemon to fill. I don't think it's possible to boost every pokemon up to a level where they will all be useable to the same degree as non-sand veil chomp, which is why I think that bringing NU and UU into OU play in a very general level should be our primary goal rather than making sure that each pokemon can fill a unique utility. By virtue of their movepools, they already can bring something unique to the table, but if we go to the extent of giving them an "OU-level" movepool, they start being less differentiable and merely known for the niche differences which we create within them. This is already true as it is but the element of surprise is also removed when we know what exactly they've been given to make them stand out. Take for example expanding on Dodrio's Baton Passing options, giving Pidgeot nice mixed attacking stats and an expanded special movepool, and Fearow gaining some extra speed/attack and a nice ability like Adaptability. Each of them would become known for those niche options that were given to them, and would only be known/differentiated by those compared to other Pokemon choices that could be used on a team. Take this and apply it to every NU and UU pokemon and I just don't see how it's possible to differentiate every single thing that could be used.

If everything filled in only 1 niche, then obviously they would generally be overlooked because there's probably something that can do that and more. Even if there wasn't, it may be overlooked as not necessary. But if we give every pokemon three niches to fill, and don't let those niches overlap with other pokemon. Of course it isn't easy, but I think your base stat changes would make a good start.

That was just a pet idea of mine, and the weather would only be renewed while the pokemon with that weather-creating ability was out, which would mean two weather inducers would override the other's weather only while they were on the field (and as such things like dragonair would only bypass sandstorm spdef boosts with their own special attacks while they were on the field). I certainly don't know how to code that, but it's probably the closest we'd get to a balanced all-weather mechanic in OU just because of the fact that it lingers for only a turn after the pokemon leaves the field. There's no need to change existing abilities like Sand Stream to do this, but rain and sun could do this and it would be an effective way to both interrupt weather teams and counter some of their strategies. That, along with spreading weather-interrupting abilities would diversify the metagame even further.

I guess it wouldn't be impossible to program, if you programmed that "at the beginning of a pokemon's attack, if they have the ability Snow Warning, Drizzle, Drought, or Sand Stream it immediately takes effect. The ability also takes effect upon switching in the pokemon." Then we could just cap the drought/ drizzle ability to last five turns max, so that then it is essentially unlimited for the pokemon who the ability is on, but limited to whatever comes in.

So we need to do a couple of things. I think our general process should be:

1) develop changes in the type chart
2) change the physics of the effects AROUND pokemon
3) make a general stat-boost to lesser used pokemon
4) test the metagame created by these changes
--4a) fix problems associated with the type chart or physics
--4b) fix "too broken" pokemon created by these changes
5) revise pokemon not seen enough by more than just stat changes
6) fix "too broken" pokemon created by these changes
7) go back to step 5

questions? comments? concerns?

 

[mood4food77]

i only have like 2 weeks left of school
i'll do a modded server, like i could change SR to deal 25% max and other fun stuff (when i figure it out)

 

[ss118]

Just a type change from Flying being weak to rock would be sufficient enough to gain that effect.

 

[CRASHiC]

The type chart only needs minor changes.

Honestly, don't change the type chart too much. If you do that, you are going to have to do far more testing and balancing than you are willing to do, I don't think you've honestly throught that through yet. Most pokemon are given a particular type as a part of their balance, such as Aggron and Steelix, the prime examples. So, you are going to have to create a type chart that is not only balanced within the types themselves, but within each individual pokemon. I think you are drastically underestimating this task. It would be far better to do minor changes, as it would achieve the same amount of balance without the immense work you are requiring of the player and the developer.

Secondly, stealth rock should be changed, no question. Its an unnecessary element of the game, its doesn't fit in with the other entry hazards, and can be changed to promote balance without hurting balance at all. Taking away stealth rocks type based damage isn't going to hurt balance at all, but increase it. Its a troublesome part of the game, and one that needs to be changed. It lacks proper design logic, and is just plain stupid.

 

[ss118]

well removing flying's weakness to rock attacks does a few things:

1) boosts the usage of the majority of underused flying types(while boosting the few used ones to garchomp's level)
2) eliminates 4x weaknesses to rock, and thus SR isn't seemingly as broken, since now pokemon like Moltres can successfully be defensive now that teams don't HAVE to have a spinner for them to work.

In terms of changing the type chart, I already mentioned that it needs to be done in small amounts. I think we all agree that both dragon and steel types need to be knocked down a little: the question is how?

I think that the following changes I suggested did a decent job, but what we need to do now is make dragon a worse attacking type. I'm thinking maybe make normal resistant to it(wouldn't be too much of a stretch), but not much beyond that.

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ But changing the flying type's weakness to rock would make salamence not fear SR anymore. Thus making him more uber than he already is :S. I think it should just cap at 25%.

 

[ss118]

How do you know salamence is on the barg of uberness in the new metagame?

For all we know we may make a TM that is a special Ice equivalent to Extremespeed and give it to every water type.

 

[CRASHiC]

There's no point in letting Stealth rocks stay type based. It has something over spikes automatically, it can be avoided. With spikes and toxic spikes, you can avoid these with immunity. Stealth rocks can't be, so, if you let it be type based, you are already taking something that is automatically more versatile than spikes and making it that much better. Even more, you are increasing the effectiveness of steel pokemon, which we all agree needs to be toned down. Fire, Flying, Ice, and Bug pokemon suffer unjustly, while fighting, ground and steel are boosted. Meanwhile, removing their type based nature we don't hurt the game at all. I quite simply see no reason to leave Stealth rock as is while leaving plenty of reason to knock it down. Its more than good enough without it.

 

[ss118]

We don't want to directly make the move worse: that ruins the point of the type of metagame we're trying to make. If anything, we should talk about how to make spikes and Toxic Spikes as good as Stealth Rock.

We should make things balanced by making things better, not by nerfing. Drought/ Drizzle get nerfed because without it they would get used 0% of the time, and we shouldn't look upon type changes as making Steel worse or Dragon worse: we should look at it as if electric, water, and grass all got better. Flying gets better with the removal of rock weakness.

Or at least, that's what I'd like to do.

 

[Circa]

Make it so Toxic Spikes can actually poison Steels. Two birds, one stone. Get *****.

I think the problems with Spikes sit in a mixture of distribution amongst Pokemon, turn economy, and simply being outclassed in most cases. If you want Spikes on your team you're basically forced to go to Skarmory, Smeargle, or Forretress; typically Skarmory due to Forretress not having reliable recovery and usually being used for Toxic Spikes instead, and Smeargle kind of being not very good (despite a specific niche or two). Both Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes have decently fast and powerful users, making them easier to set up on offensive teams and stall-based balance. Spikes also take three turns to get full usage, whereas Toxic Spikes take two and Stealth Rock take one. This puts Spikes at a disadvantage, simply because you could easily take the three turns you'd probably use to set up Spikes just to set up the other two hazards; one of which hits EVERYTHING for damage (which Spikes don't) and the other spreading a status that can absolutely ruin some large-threat Pokemon.

I think fixing Spikes involves giving it to some more Pokemon; preferably faster things that can actually do a lead spot better than Smeargle can. You can't really change the turn economy, so I think it's the only change possible.

 

[ss118]

Well the biggest thing SR has over Spikes and Toxic Spikes is its simplicity of setting up, as well as the advantage it has once it is set up, not to mention the amount of pokemon that get it. I was considering making it so that Poison Point would set up Toxic Spikes every time the pokemon attacked: simple, and with the multitude of Toxic types in the game it wouldn't be terribly gamebreaking. For spikes I was considering something like increasing the amount of layers you could do, with the damage going up 6.25% per layer after the intial 12.5% for a single layer(but then it becomes hard to know what to cap on: if we don't cap it enough then it becomes too dangerous).

 

[kirbyraeg]

I think a better way to go about balancing spikes is just making it 2 layers max, 12.5% per layer. Keeps it simple, reduces setup time for full impact, and also doesn't really change their function or setup while addressing the time economy problem of spikes. Increasing its movepool distribution certainly would be helpful too, but that's more thinking of what pokemon would be able to use it well and fixing it later on.

I like that Poison Point idea, although I think it should NOT activate when the pokemon uses Toxic Spikes itself because I feel like a 1-turn full toxic spikes setup, though not gamebreaking, is still too powerful despite how rare poison point is as an ability.

 

[ss118]

if a pokemon had poison point, why would it have toxic spikes? that'd be ultimately redundant.

 

[Circa]

if a pokemon had poison point, why would it have toxic spikes? that'd be ultimately redundant.

I think he meant that if you used Toxic Spikes on something with Poison Point (Nidoqueen, for instance) they could set up two layers of Toxic Spikes in one turn. I do agree that it'd be redundant, however, because in most cases you'd just want to say **** it and give such a Pokemon the ability to lay down Toxic Spikes while actually dishing out damage.

Although Roserade would suddenly become one of the most incredible set-up Pokemon ever. She could set up both Spikes AND Toxic Spikes at one time; although there's always the downside of the fact that she'd have to use Grasswhistle for sleep. Nonetheless, if she can find the time she'd be the biggest asset on a lot of teams.

I didn't realize Spikes only went up by 6.25% after the initial lay. I agree with kirbyraeg then about just making it a two turn set-up.

EDIT: I just figured out that you may have meant that Poison Point only lays down TSpikes when utilizing an offensive move. If that's the case, then disregard the Roserade bit.

 

[ss118]

I meant what I said and I said what I meant! My Poison Point definition is accurate one-hundred percent!

By using Toxic Spikes as a move while having that ability, they're trading an extra moveslot for a bit more speed, which is unnecessary. Really a bad choice imo, but if a person wants to make it that's fine.

In the case of Roserade, it would be interesting. They would lose accuracy by choosing Grasswhistle, though, but I guess again risk vs reward.

I agree with the spikes suggestion.

 

[PowerBomb]

So can anyone post here about ideas/contributions or what?

Because Gardevoir totally needs more usage.

EDIT: And more HP.

 

[ss118]

Gardevoir should get bulkier stats. It should also be part-ghost, just because.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Psychic/Gost: 4x weak to Dark/Ghost, why not lol.

 

[CRASHiC]

WHY THE HELL ARE WE BOOSTING ENTRY HAZARDS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

This is as dumb as buffing Tiger Uppercuts. Entry Hazards are overcentralizing enough, we don't need to increase their power at all. We need to even out stealth rocks to where we take out its trouble while also giving it a boos so spikes don't out class it, which is what I proposed, and increase anti-enviromental behavior. This is part of the reason that the balance of this game tips in the favor of offense this generation, because of entry hazards destroying the potential of stall and making life so easy for sweepers.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Gardevoir should get bulkier stats. It should also be part-ghost, just because.

Support for the first part. Not seeing the point in the second.

As someone stated before, Gardevoir and Gallade have identical HP, speed, and defenses. Their Sp Atk and Atk are inversed. Gallade is BL, Gardevoir is NU. Just buff up her defenses more and you should be okay.

-Terywj

 

[PowerBomb]

WHY THE HELL ARE WE BOOSTING ENTRY HAZARDS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

This is as dumb as buffing Tiger Uppercuts. Entry Hazards are overcentralizing enough, we don't need to increase their power at all. We need to even out stealth rocks to where we take out its trouble while also giving it a boos so spikes don't out class it, which is what I proposed, and increase anti-enviromental behavior. This is part of the reason that the balance of this game tips in the favor of offense this generation, because of entry hazards destroying the potential of stall and making life so easy for sweepers.

Just make Stealth Rock deal 25% damage at max (just halve the damage %-wise or something). Spikes should be a two-turn set-up so it has something over SR, while still doing 25% damage (I saw this in the thread, very attractive indeed).

If Entry Hazards are so annoying, why not buff up Rapid Spin or give it to some more Pokemon (although it might seem illogical for some to have it)?

Gardevoir
HP - 90 [+ 22]
Attack - 50 [-15]
Defense - 75 [+10]
Sp. Att - 125 [+0]
Sp. Def - 115 [+0]
Speed - 81 [+1 for teh lulz]

Its moveset is fine. I don't think any changes need to be made there, unless I'm missing something. If you guys are changing the types around for more balance, than does Gardevoir really need a second typing?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Rapid Spin Miltank, please.

Or, we could allow certain moves to remove entry hazards, something we've brought up before. Moves like Whirlwind come to mind.

-Terywj

 

[PowerBomb]

Why not reverse Defog? I know it has some usage in Double Battles, but a reverse Defog that clears away your opponents entry hazards could help.

 

[kirbyraeg]

The problem with all of these suggestions is just that we can't actually test them yet.

...Yet.

Also we're not trying to focus on individual pokemon, instead trying out type balancing things and fundamental move changes rather than buffing specific pokemon.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Surf seems like a move that should remove entry hazards.

 

[PowerBomb]

Surf seems like a move that should remove entry hazards.

That would totally render entry hazards obsolete. Maybe...

What are you guys trying to do with the type balancing? 3 NVE moves and 3 SE moves for each Pokemon?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

And that might be the point. Entry hazards are a central point in the OU Metagame, and rendering / limiting their usefulness could lead teams away from using entry hazards.

-Terywj

 

[ss118]

Trying to type balance the game like that makes things complicated, hard to remember, and overall just really annoys users. Miniscule changes are better for newer users.

Reverse Defog might be a good idea: it would be made to remove ALL hazards on both sides, as well as removing weather effects. Make it actually useful.

We need to stop theorymonning here and get back on track to creating a process, as well as general criteria for the game. I like the idea of boosting stats by a certain number with a cap, but we need to establish what numbers we need to cap at, as well as the general numbers in which we should boost a pokemon. We also need to finalize type chart changes, if any are to be made at all. I still suggest:

Normal now resists Dragon.
Water hits Steel super-effective.
Ghost and Dark are neutral against Steel.
Electric, Grass, and Water(?) are neutral against Dragon.

Poison needs to do more in terms of type-coverage. Any suggestions?

 

[xLeafybug =D]

You guys are gonna make all water Pokemon Uber. If Water is hitting Steel for SE, it shouldn't hit Dragon for Neutral as well. That's just my opinion.

 

[Sir Bedevere]

How about we make Poison super-effective against Steel, for starters? Being super-effective against one of the best defensive types in the game might give people more of an incentive to have a Poison attack beyond STAB, and it fits well with the previous suggestion of removing Steel's immunity to getting the poison status. Additionally, all of the current OU Steel threats (bar Lucario) are all 2x weak to Poison if we do this, while UU Pokemon like Aggron and Steelix are neutral.

I think we'd need to remove Steel's weakness to Water, as Leafy suggested, but for different reasons, namely, Steel isn't such an amazing defensive type with what... 5 weaknesses? Also, the aforementioned Aggron and Steelix are now 4x weak to Water so... X.X

 

[PowerBomb]

Keep Water from being neutral against Dragon. Make it NVE v. Dragons, so it isn't lulzy.

Why not just approach 'overpowered' types in terms of offense/defense, and proceed from there? You guys can all go through each type and see whether or not it is balanced/needs buffing.