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OU Balancing: Finding a standard!

ss118

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I'll make a list of type with how they perform offensively and defensively shortly.

Also, I'm fine with dragon resisting water. Steel is the defensive type needing to be knocked down: dragon is too good an offensive type. Though if normal resists dragon, pokemon such as Tauros will see a much better function in balanced teams so yaaaaay.
 

ss118

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Bug- Defensively resists common fighting and ground type attacks, but weak to common attacking types like fire and rock. Offensively they have decent coverage with a few common resists. Since the most commonly used Bug-type attack is U-Turn, they don't have to directly worry about moves resisting it as they instead force a "do or die" situation for Psychic/Dark/Grass types, as we would know with how Scizor generally works. I say we can leave it alone, though maybe one less thing resisting it might be a good idea.
Suggestions: None
Reasons: Good enough: defensive ones exist+offensive ones. Doesn't need help

Dark- Defensively resists Dark and Ghost while being immune to Psychic: pairs up with the ghost type to have no weaknesses. Offensively has pretty neutral coverage against the majority of types, while being resisted by commonly used Fighting/ Steel types. Usually used in the form of Crunch/ Pursuit/ Sucker Punch, most commonly used in Pursuit to help trap what would otherwise be incredibly troublesome ghost and psychic types.
Suggestions: Dark is Neutral vs Steel.
Reasons: Gives actually a good reason to use Special Dark moves, to help prey on the lower sp. defensive stat of most steels. Never did make real sense, anyway.

Dragon- Defensively has a plethora of resistances, some of which include water, fire, and electric. Also has a resistance to grass that really hinders it's ability to be a good attacking type. Offensively, Dragon is superior to every other type: hitting itself for super-effective(giving it more reason to use it), while hitting everything for neutral EXCEPT for steel, hence the centralization between Dragon and steel types in the current metagame.
Defensive Suggestion: Dragon no longer resists Grass and Electric.
Reasons: Gives every Dragon type more weaknesses, meaning they hinder you more defensively.
Offensive Suggestions: Dragon is resisted by Normal.
Reasons: Other than Blissey and Snorlax, what Normal types reside in the current OU metagame? This gives pokemon like Staraptor and Tauros a chance to be a good physical wall, as well as decreasing the centralization towards steel types(we have more choices to combat dragons! yay!).

Electric- Defensively resists common Steel and Electric attacks, but weak to the super-common Earthquake. Offensively hits a lot of types neutral, but common ground types are immune to their onslaughts. Hits "bulky" waters super-effective.
Defensive Suggestion: Electric now resists Ice.
Reasons: Ice is a really good attacking type: it hits a lot of common types super-effective and nothing is ever immune to it. Electric needs more of a push as a defensive-type, and it being able to resist the ever bolt-beam combo might be enough to do it. Scientifically, trying to freeze a magnet doesn't work: in fact, it turns it into a super-conductor, making it only more powerful. So it makes logical sense as well.
Offensive Suggestion: Electric hits neutral against Dragon.
Reasons: Already explained.

Fighting- Defensively resists common Rock, Dark, and Bug attacks. Weak to non-common Plying and Psychic attacks. Not terribly broken, but hard to capitalize on: thankfully, the amount of purely-defensive Fighting types are limited. Offensively hits Steel, Rock, Ice, and Normal super-effective, keeping Steel and Normal in check but very much hindering the use of Ice-types as defensive pokemon. Resisted by Flying, bug, and poison types, and is immune to by ghosts. Very good, but not terribly abusable. It's just enough to keep types in check.
Suggestions: None
Reasons: Really a good type as-is. Doesn't need any fixing.

Fire- A mixed bag defensively. While resisting four very common types such as Fire itself, Steel, Bug, and Ice, it has two insanely common weaknesses: EQ and SR. Offensively it can stand with the best of them, hitting Steel, Ice, Grass, and Bug super-effective but resisted by Rock, Water, and Dragon.
Suggestions: None
Reasons: As far as fire types go, they are offensive. And the few defensive ones are part flying, and flying gets a boost in lack of rock weakness so SR isn't the biggest pain anymore. Torkoal will be fixed...


Busy. more to come
 

UltiMario

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Tell me how Steel DOESN'T resist bug.

Bugs cannot even dent most metals. There is your logic.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Normal-types to resist Dragon? Wouldn't this just make Blissey even more painful to take out?

All in all nice work though. Try to make it more reader-friendly, unless you're at work or something.

-Terywj
 

ss118

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Normal people don't believe in dragons.

Holy ****. I just typed up everything but accidentally deleted it all by clicking the wrong **** tab.

**** it, I'll post my suggestions in the original post. Please agree/ disagree with what you will.
 

UltiMario

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I think Ice should be Neutral to and against Water.

Since in an IRL situation, only the mass and temperature of these elements declare the winner. So, Neutral makes sense, no?
 

ss118

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True, that makes sense: but by doing that we make Ice a better attacking type(good enough as-is), and we make Water a little worse defensive type.

I'd rather make ice a better defensive type(it needs it!), and make water a little worse attacking type(still kicks ***).
 

ss118

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I know what you mean but no need to kick a dead horse =3

What about Rock resisting Rock? It would make some sense and I have reasoning behind doing so: basically, I'm going to make Torkoal a clone to Camerupt(I just remembered Magcargo but it shouldn't be too hard to differentiate them). Except it's going to be part Rock type instead. While it may seem drastic to make this change for just one pokemon, if you look at the majority of rock-types they don't need help against rock attacks. I'm going to make a list of the pokemon it helps SIGNIFICANTLY.

Torkoal
Shuckle
Armaldo
Magcargo

Those it helps somewhat:

Aerodactyl
Corsola
Kabutops
Omastar
Tyranitar
Cradily
Lunatone
Solrock
Rampardos
Regirock
Relicanth
Sudowoodo

Most of them NEED the boost. Some don't, but it won't make a terrible difference as to how they are played. Anyone disagree?
 

mood4food77

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fire is a great attacking type, horrible defensive type
there are only 2 fire types in OU (heatran and infernape)

poison is one of the best defensive types but the worst offensive type, i say it could be SE against normal
food poisoning, getting poisoned=death, i mean, it makes sense
 

ss118

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poison being super-effective against any living element would make sense. That means like Bug, Grass, Dragon, Normal.... not a lot, but it's a start.

How do you guys think Poison should be changed? It really needs a boost offensively.
 

Bowser_Gangsta

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Poison should be super-effective against fighting types because fighters stay in tip top shape and poisons would cripple them beyond repair. Or maybe thats just a pipe dream..

Also, if Normal types dont believe in dragons, just like they dont believe in ghosts, wouldnt they be immune to them?
 

Terywj [태리]

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I'd support Poison hitting Normal- and Fighting-types for supereffective damage because of logical reasons.

I'd rather have Normal-types resist Dragon-types rather than being completely immune, if anything.

-Terywj
 

ss118

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Yeah but ghosts can't do anything to humans beyond materialize using Ectoplasm or some other form. So it's not the ghost directly doing damage, but the material in which they materialize through.

Poison > Bug makes a LOT of sense the more I think about it. Fighting makes a lot of sense as well.

Normal is on the fence, however. I think it should be done to compensate for the huuuuge boosts we gave to Normal types in the form of a Dragon Resist(not that it would be enough, really, but better than nothing).

No one said anything about Poison being super-effective versus Dragons. Gives the worst type a boost and another hit to the best type. So proposed change is:

Poison hits Bug, Fighting, Normal, and Dragon Super-effective.

Anyone have problems with this?
 

Charmander

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Yeah but ghosts can't do anything to humans beyond materialize using Ectoplasm or some other form. So it's not the ghost directly doing damage, but the material in which they materialize through.

Poison > Bug makes a LOT of sense the more I think about it. Fighting makes a lot of sense as well.

Normal is on the fence, however. I think it should be done to compensate for the huuuuge boosts we gave to Normal types in the form of a Dragon Resist(not that it would be enough, really, but better than nothing).

No one said anything about Poison being super-effective versus Dragons. Gives the worst type a boost and another hit to the best type. So proposed change is:

Poison hits Bug, Fighting, Normal, and Dragon Super-effective.

Anyone have problems with this?
If this goes through and fire becomes SE on poison, fire may get more usage...
 

kirbyraeg

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Poison > Bug existed in RBY but they got rid of it for some reason.

I DO NOT think poison should hit Dragon for SE, especially considering the mythical aspects of dragons. Everything else is fine though.
 

ss118

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If this goes through and fire becomes SE on poison, fire may get more usage...
Fire currently is the most powerful type in the OU metagame. You want to make it better?

I DO NOT think poison should hit Dragon for SE, especially considering the mythical aspects of dragons. Everything else is fine though.
fair enough. i want to hear others though before it's finalized.
 

ss118

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You realize this wouldn't affect Fire types necessarily: just the usage mainly for Fire type moves? This change would make mixed attackers more dangerous as now the physical fighting + special fire combination is now even MORE effective than it already is.

If Poison becomes too good of an attacking type(which it might be with all these changes), we can maybe make Fire resist it. Wouldn't effect it too much, makes sense, and gives Fire a boost as a defensive type.
 

FAILchion-

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The Final Countdown is now playing in your head.
Not unless we get our fire>poison
Fire needs to go UP not down :)
I definitely agree but Fire being super-effective towards Poison (while it makes complete and utter sense) wouldn't make it all that better, seeing as Poison-types aren't commonly used in competitive play anyway. However, I do think Fire should hit Rock neutrally.

Edit: We also need A LOT more Poison-type moves. Gunk Shot would be amazing if not for its horrid accuracy. But +1 priority, 95 base power, and 100+ base power attacks would help out tremendously. Also, make Sludge Bomb more accessible for other Pokemon. I'm kinda ticked off Swampert can learn Sludge but not Sludge Bomb, same for several others. >_>
 

highfive

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Shouldn't poison > psychic?

I mean, psychics have horrific physical defense so I imagine they would have a bad time trying to fight off poisoning.
 

ss118

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yeah but psychic has enough problems as it is. In fact, we might need to address that as another problem type(it's mediocre defensively and hinders you greatly when it comes to taking the offensive).

Edit: in due time, I will try to make it so that EVERY move can be used competitively, with no specific one overshadowing all the others. Every ability will be affected in this manner as well.

Edit2: that would be addressing your comments, FAILchion-.
 

kirbyraeg

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the way to patch up psychic is to make it NVE vs dark and neutral vs. steel. I can't think of any resists that make sense though.

It can be a defensively crappy type but with those attacking weaknesses covered it would be much more balanced.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Technically Dragon-types are the most offensive, resisted by only Steel-types, whereas Fire-types have other Fire-types, Water-types, Rock-types, etc.

-Terywj
 

ss118

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yes but fire-type moves do more damage on average to the metagame than anything else.

Psychic NVE vs Dark might patch up Psychic's biggest problem of getting trapped. Steel losing the resist helps its issue of getting walled as well: any other suggestions?
 

ss118

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just because a poll is up doesn't mean this should die: we must continue onward!

In the main post I have made a list of changes to all of the Dragon moves(did it first because it had the smallest movepool) so that nothing is completely outdone by anything else.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Dragonbreath and Dragon Pulse are so similar now. Other than the more power there's more reason to use Dragonbreath for the paralysis chance.

-Terywj
 
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