OU Balancing: Finding a standard!

[ss118]

I could move it up to 102 to make it like Return vs Body Slam.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I could move it up to 102 to make it like Return vs Body Slam.

That would be more suitable, but then having such a reliable Dragon-type move is kinda risky, isn't it?

I do realize that Blissey still stands, but then Dragon Pulse would probably override Draco Meteor. Less risks.

-Terywj

 

[ss118]

I don't see why Dragon Pulse wouldn't get use at 95 base: Zapdos uses Thunderbolt over Discharge usually. Excluding Thunderbolt's fairly small chance to paralyze, the situation is the same as this one and you can see how that played out.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

That's my point. If you strengthen Dragon Pulse wouldn't it become more centralized if it becomes as strong as Return?

-Terywj

 

[ss118]

ok base 95 it is!

What type should be next?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I nominate the Grass-type.

-Terywj

 

[Pink Reaper]

I nominate Fire

There needs to be a more reliable physical fire move than Blaze Kick. Something in the 80-90 BP range with 100% accuracy. Flare Blitz being the only good physical fire is ******** since recoil combined with SR damage and fire types natural lack of bulk make it physical sets almost non-existent.

 

[ss118]

first will be grass and then fire.

If you want to help out, look at non-usable moves and see if you can try to balance them. It will be interesting to make Ember as useful as Flamethrower.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Bullet Seed should act as a Grass-type equivalent of Quick Attack. It should be physical too, since Seed Bomb is also physical.

More ideas later.

-Terywj

 

[Pink Reaper]

first will be grass and then fire.

If you want to help out, look at non-usable moves and see if you can try to balance them. It will be interesting to make Ember as useful as Flamethrower.

No it wouldnt, because we already have Flamethrower.

Most moves have attacks that range from 80-100+ power already and many of them are fully usable.

Fire alone has

Lava Plume: 80 BP, 30% Burn rate
Flamethrower: 95 BP, 10% Burn Rate
Heat Wave: 100 BP, 10% Burn Rate
Fire Blast: 120 BP, 10% Burn Rate
Overheat: 140 BP, lowers SpAtk 2 stages

ALL of those moves are extremely usable with the exception of maybe Heat Wave since the trade in power isnt worth the loss of accuracy. How do you intend ot make Ember as useful as Flamethrower? Give it the same BP and more Burn rate? Then why use Flamethrower anymore? Give it lower BP and Higher Burn Rate? There's already Lava Plume. More power and perfect accuracy? You just made every other move obsolete.

Dont bother buffing moves that dont need buffs.

Physical Fire/Special Rock/Physical Grass, those need buffs.

 

[ss118]

You could always go low power and higher burn rate for moves like ember. Make them somewhat usable: not necessarily just as good, but not "lol why does this exist" worthy.

A good example is how I tried to Balance the entire Absorb/ Mega Drain/ Giga Drain moves. While Giga has the most power, it also has the least PP and the further down you go the higher the damage to HP ratio goes.

Edit: Didn't see your suggestion Terywj. If you want I can make it a quick-attack like move.

 

[Pink Reaper]

There's an obvious reason Ember exists, that's the fact that Pokemon is an RPG where you have to have low level attacks. That's like saying, "Why does FF have a Thunder spell when Thundaga is so clearly better"

 

[kirbyraeg]

Move balancing is not very useful except with cases where we feel that there are moves that should exist but do not, like a reliable physical fire move, but in general move buffs don't need to happen because those weaker moves exist for in-game purposes.

Move distribution changes are useful though and should be what we focus on as far as move changes.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Power Whip - Has a higher critical hit ratio.

Petal Dance - 120 Base Power.

Seed Bomb - 10% chance of lowering target's Defense.

Vine Whip - 20% chance of lowering target's Speed.

Just some ideas.

-Terywj

 

[Pink Reaper]

power whip really doesnt need a buff just needs to be given to more pokemon. solar beam shouldnt require a charge turn but should be dropped down to 85 accuracy

 

[Terywj [태리]]

So like a Grass-type Megahorn. I see.

-Terywj

 

[ss118]

There's an obvious reason Ember exists, that's the fact that Pokemon is an RPG where you have to have low level attacks. That's like saying, "Why does FF have a Thunder spell when Thundaga is so clearly better"

we don't have to leave it useless though. We can leave it sub-par, but not completely useless. I wasn't seriously questioning Ember's existence, but I guess sarcasm goes again unnoticed over the internet.

 

[UltiMario]

You literally cannot buff moves like ember because in theory this metagame would have a theoretical "in-game", in which moves like Ember would be absolutely broken beyond all belief because it only cares about the Metagame.

Leave the moves that were designed to be useless that way.

 

[ss118]

Why does the server have to have a "theoretical in-game"? I don't see what the issue is for adding more options: it would be bad if I said ember had over 9000 base power with a 100% chance of burning(not to mention KOing) the opponent, but I'm simply stating something like 60 base power for maybe a 50% chance to burn: it might as well be useless. Are you seriously going to freak out if I do this?

 

[kirbyraeg]

pretty much what we're saying isn't that there's something wrong with that, just that imo it is an effort that would be better spent distributing the existing moves we have. There's really only a few moves that would be useful to create (making sure each type has a reliable attacking move on each spectrum for one, among many, many other things physical ghost stab is lacking ) and those are easy to do, just because we decide its base power based on its distribution/type and then give it 100% acc and maaaaaybe a 10(20)% chance to do something nifty.

 

[UltiMario]

Why does the server have to have a "theoretical in-game"? I don't see what the issue is for adding more options: it would be bad if I said ember had over 9000 base power with a 100% chance of burning(not to mention KOing) the opponent, but I'm simply stating something like 60 base power for maybe a 50% chance to burn: it might as well be useless. Are you seriously going to freak out if I do this?

Useless moves are and stay useless.

Splash exists for this very reason.

 

[ss118]

I still say Splash should OHKO 1% of the time with no immunities, but that's just me. =3

 

[CRASHiC]

Kirby, increasing the viability of moves promotes diversity, I say its well worth our time.

Ingrain- when I pick ingrain a 2nd time, I want to remove my roots, stop gaining health, and be able to switch out on the next turn to prevent someone from setting up +6 on me. Its not super helpful, but will provide a little boost to an otherwise risky gambit.

Worry Seed- still changes the users thing to insomnia, also inflicts 1/16th damage until the pokemon switches out. So, kill the rest talker by getting rid of rest and stopping his leftovers, basically.

Grass Whistle- if Smogon two supports double battle, this should hit all targets.

Solar Beam- first time you use it you charge it, and you can hold this charge until you switch out. When you use the attack again, it hits the opponent. Something to note: this will make it basically have 5 PP. It should still be a 1 turn attack in sunnyday.

Needle Arm- needs a higher base power, make it 85. Raise its flinch ratio to 40. Now Cacturn is even more annoying to face, as any good grass pokemon should be.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Or...Ingrain could have a heal rate of 1/12 or 1/8. Just to make it more ridiculous.

Your avatar is still awesome, CRASHiC.

-Terywj

 

[FAILchion-]

Thought about this today. How 'bout Ghost gets resistance from Ice?

 

[PowerBomb]

Thought about this today. How 'bout Ghost gets resistance from Ice?

Why?

Something to do with a Ghost's 'chilling' presence?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Fire should be immune to Ice.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Fire should be immune to Ice.

If this is supported somehow we are not making any SmashCAP Dragon / Fire.

-Terywj

 

[kirbyraeg]

Charizard should be dragon/fire.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Charizard should be dragon/fire.

And then we might as well give him Levitate. He would be in the same boat as Flygon.

-Terywj

 

[E123-omega]

Fire should be immune to Ice.

Ice melts into water, which puts out fire. It fire should be weak to ice.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Ice melts into water, which puts out fire. It fire should be weak to ice.

Yes, but fire burns / melts ice which doesn't necessarily douse the fire.

-Terywj

 

[E123-omega]

Place an ice cube on a lit candle, see who wins.

 

[Charmander]

Place an ice cube on a lit candle, see who wins.

Put an ice tray into a bonfire, see who wins.

 

[Pink Reaper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYLe5Zv8Pqc

Glacier vs Lava

tl;dw: Lava wins.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

In short, Fire should still resist or become immune to the Ice-type.

-Terywj

 

[E123-omega]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYLe5Zv8Pqc

Glacier vs Lava

tl;dw: Lava wins.

Lava is liquid rock, explaining why rock beats ice.

 

[RuNNing Riot]

I was always under the impression that rock beats ice because rock is harder than ice, and so can cut it without being damaged.

And btw, that volcano doesn't really have much in the way of magma. It's the hot ash that's doing most of the damage now to the glacier

Spoiler

and Europe's airlines

.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Lava is liquid rock, explaining why rock beats ice.

Fire is superheated oxygen. Magma is superheated rock. Fire doesnt exist, heat does.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Fire is superheated oxygen. Magma is superheated rock. Fire doesnt exist, heat does.

This is correct. Regardless, this is currently for discussing moves, not typings. More type changes are to come later.

-Terywj