Ottawa Ontario Canada HD Remix

[Linkshot]

Squeegee's was banned in Niagara, so Randy banned it here.

 

[CHAOSvsORDER]

yeah but a lot of these levels DO break the game and render it unplayable... they may not be broken by themselves, but playing on them is so far from playing on anything else that it deserves to be banned in competitive play... it's like a different game...

The game mechanics are unchanged from level to level(excluding ghey isht like spear pillar). If I play on Skyworld, or if I play on Battlefield, I'm still trying to smash you into a blastline, or I'm trying to get you off the stage for a gimp. I'm going to try stop you from recovering. A lot of the stages don't compromise gameplay too much. You don't live with Harold. He won't ban a stage until I have proven to him that it is broken(took me a little while to get him to recognize 75m -_-') The stages don't change a huge portion of the game unless it has something utterly broken in it.

that is just wrong... they are two distinctly separate philosophies of how to think about competitive brawl as outlined in the explicit explanation (ie. by definition they are not the same)... it's like saying raspberries and strawberries are the same thing because they are both a fruit, or less tastily and more relevant, that playing offensively and defensively are the same thing...

OK I gotcha. Personally, I am of the philosophy that if it is not broken, then it should not be banned.

edit -- lol you're just realizing this now?? fail I am a pretty ****ed harsh critic about this... I was perfectly content playing FD only in melee, so for me to be where I am means part of what harold is saying really makes sense to me, and I do think that given the opportunity can be proven to the rest of the smash community that it's a more competitive game than the current ruleset allows... it's why I continue with these debates... who's to say we can't do it?

Agreed. The main problem with the community is that some stages need to be allowed into tournaments before we can truly say they are ban worthy, but no one wants to allow them. Until we allow them at the highest level of competitive gameplay, we are only theorizing. Under the pressure of a tournament you will be doing everything in order to win. If you happen upon a broken tactic, then we know for a fact that the stage should be banned.

to me, a lot of this isn't about which levels are considered for the CP list, but the Neutral list... there are some levels that need to be banned... period... weather they are broken or not, if people actually go as far as to dislike a level, and if enough people did, then it should be banned...

If the neutrals did have more added in, I think it'd be a lot more fun, so I'm with you.

That being said, I was perfectly serious about the ban talk about Luigi, Peach, DeDeDe, and others. If you lost the match because Luigi misfired, Peach blows you up, or DeDeDe throws a Gordo, how is it any different than a bomb hitting you on Pirate Ship or a car hitting you in Port Town? Someone will bring up the odds of those attacks compared to stage hazards, but it's irrelevant. It's in the game.

The difference is you can see the stage hazards, which is why they shouldn't be banned imo.

 

[PND]

Guys, NikoK is here safe and sound. (and I'm 3 stock *****es)

 

[arsenic41]

Guys, NikoK is here safe and sound. (and I'm 3 stock *****es)

YAY NIKO!

oh, and ask if he wants in on the bi-weekly.

 

[PND]

Yes he does.

 

[infomon]

I just realized...let just say for the sake of example, that Harold manages to convert everyone to his way of think about stages. If we were the only region doing this, then Niagara/GTA/Montreal won't show up to ottawa because our rule set will be too different.

I think they'd take our money regardless.

 

[chesterr01]

ask niko how good i am

also, good **** for getting there safely here niko, it was a blast.

also, I browsed the last 3 pages: stop being so ****ing smart.

 

[buenob]

lol I say competitive because it's a loaded word, and has more meaning than just it's definition, but basically when i say it I am talking about playing with a ruleset that you are comfortable putting money on the line that you are better than someone else...

item random spawn locations are as big a concern to me as the items themselves, and if I lost on say, port town, I would really feel like I only lost because the system allowed that level.. playing there is too unlike playing anywhere else, and to me, isn't competitive smash... if, however, I lost on skyworld, it would be because the opponent out-played me on that level, and I would be fine with that... even though it's radically different from pretty much every other level, when playing on it, there's still that feeling that being better than someone is the major factor

chet - $10 SF4 MM first time we see eachother after the game comes out (if I can use a stick)?

 

[joblin]

My problem is that people seem to throw the word "competitive" around way too much, when often times they mean "deep" or "complex". Any game can be competitive. Random elements have nothing to do with it - in fact, Sirlin mentions games like Magic, Poker, and even Survivor. He's also very quick to point out that in Magic, even though you're randomly drawing cards from a deck, the same tournament players have very consistent placings. A zero random game isn't any more or less "competitive" than a game that has some things left to chance.

I completely agree with this in that a hint of random does spark for a more interesting game whether or not its 'competitive'. I think Poker is a great example. It's like the most competitive thing in the world and the element of randomness is baked into the game just like Smash Bros. The randomness, the items, the stages and the mechanics of the game all make up Smash. Take those away little by little and you're not just making it more competitive but more like every other fighter. I'm sure when they created this game series they tried to not make just another fighter and that is why its popular (on top of the fact that its Nintendo characters). By this rate, Brawl might end up like Melee and have like 2 stages to fight on, which in my opinion is lame as hell.

That being said, I was perfectly serious about the ban talk about Luigi, Peach, DeDeDe, and others. If you lost the match because Luigi misfired, Peach blows you up, or DeDeDe throws a Gordo, how is it any different than a bomb hitting you on Pirate Ship or a car hitting you in Port Town? Someone will bring up the odds of those attacks compared to stage hazards, but it's irrelevant. It's in the game.

It does piss me off when Peach pulls a ****ing beam sword but I don't think it's bannable. The Gordo is just another one of DeDeDe's moves. If you start banning characters based on a move in their moveset you'll start banning G&W for the 9 Hammer being similar to the Baseball Bat, Snake's moves are to similar to Bobombs, etc. I don't think characters should ever been bannable.

I don't really care if people want to make Smash into a zero random game, but at least be consistent. If you're taking out random elements, remove them all: items, stages, and characters. If not, then leave it all alone and stop trying to justify decisions based on a scrubby attitude.

I agree with the lame justifications but not on the zero random game. If you want that, go play another fighter. I think we butchered the original game enough to make it 'competitive'.

 

[IvanEva]

I just realized...let just say for the sake of example, that Harold manages to convert everyone to his way of think about stages. If we were the only region doing this, then Niagara/GTA/Montreal won't show up to ottawa because our rule set will be too different.

You presume too much. A different way of selecting the starting stage as well as two or three extra stages wouldn't change anything. Niagara's Pictochat and Pirate Ship didn't exactly scare anybody away, as a result you adopted them. I'm disappointed that it was Ottawa copying another region and not the other way around. A successful change here might do the same for them, they'd adopt it if it works.

1. they may not be broken by themselves, but playing on them is so far from playing on anything else that it deserves to be banned in competitive play... it's like a different game...

2. you keep quoting sirlin, but really, how 'competitive' do you feel you are towards brawl? I keep getting told that I'm very competitive, and while I definitely am (and love competition) I'm no where near as competitive as some...

3. from sirlins point of view, does this break brawl? no... does it make it significantly less competitive, yes.

4. to me, a lot of this isn't about which levels are considered for the CP list, but the Neutral list... there are some levels that need to be banned... period... weather they are broken or not, if people actually go as far as to dislike a level, and if enough people did, then it should be banned...

5. lol I say competitive because it's a loaded word, and has more meaning than just it's definition, but basically when i say it I am talking about playing with a ruleset that you are comfortable putting money on the line that you are better than someone else...

6. if I lost on say, port town, I would really feel like I only lost because the system allowed that level.. playing there is too unlike playing anywhere else, and to me, isn't competitive smash... if, however, I lost on skyworld, it would be because the opponent out-played me on that level, and I would be fine with that... even though it's radically different from pretty much every other level, when playing on it, there's still that feeling that being better than someone is the major factor

7. chet - $10 SF4 MM first time we see eachother after the game comes out (if I can use a stick)?

1. Any such levels are banned. All levels I want in play the same as all the other legal ones. Sky World and Port Town play no different overall than Norfair, Battlefield, Japes, etc. You're still doing the exact same thing.

2. Hmmm, how exactly are you rating competitiveness? I'm "competitive" in that I'm trying to get better so I can win tournaments. How much more can you be than that? Level of practice?

3. I would have thought so myself but Ally's online wins suggest otherwise. Online Brawl can indeed be just as competitive. However, given the lag it's basically another game, one that's so deep in mindgames that it's a turn off for most people. If we all played online, I'm betting the outcomes wouldn't change much (although the players with better "yomi" skills will come out on top).

4. The "neutral" levels are the most biased part of SBR-Brawl and should be changed. Any level that renders a match-up unwinnable has been banned or at least will be for that set from the stage ban a player gets.

5. That definition extends to just about anything. I'm willing to put money down on an All-Brawl match because I firmly believe that I will win given my knowledge of those rules and how to apply them (except against Ariel and Derek who are better at it than I am...).

6. I know those levels enough now to not john about them having affected the outcome. Port Town isn't all that different. The better player will always win.

7. We needs us a full fledged Smash Street Fighter get together. I'd totally put money down that I'm the best Street Fighter player (... in the Smash Bros. community ). Suo and I were talking about playing when it comes out. If I recall correctly though, his stick won't be in then.

// ********************** IMPORTANT \/ ******************************

Was there ANYBODY opposed to Ben's level change suggestions for the bi-weeklies? If not, let's consider them official now and implement them immediately after this bi-weekly.

Anybody remember where that post of his was? Ben, care to post them again?

// ********************** IMPORTANT /\ ******************************

 

[jan]

I agree with the lame justifications but not on the zero random game. If you want that, go play another fighter. I think we butchered the original game enough to make it 'competitive'.

That's the thing I realized about Smash: there is no standard way to play. If they had an arcade version of the game where you can't change the stock/timer and random stage selection, it would be much easier to adopt that version as the "right" way to play.

In the home version of Street Fighter 3, there are tons of options you can tweak that completely change the game play including cancelling options, super move and meter changes, and air blocking. Some people have said that if you change a bunch of these options, the game can feel more like Marvel vs Capcom.

And that's the problem with Smash. People think of the SBR rule set as the "right" way to play, but really it's just a bunch of guys who tweaked the game options to make it into a different game. I just don't understand why people can't accept that there's more than one way to play, and that each way can be equally competitive.

 

[Linkshot]

Harold, I remember the Starters were:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Yoshi's Island
Halberd
Castle Siege
Smashville

And that CPs included:

Lylat Cruise
Port Town: Aero Dive
Skyworld

I think the rest was the same as is now.

 

[buenob]

ok, it's true, but we have to remember that I'm going to be playing the same game that the majority of others will be playing... even if I play for fun with you guys, i'm going to want to spend most of my time playing wha the majority of people play...

on the grand scheme of things, adding levels locally doesn't hinder that for me, since worst case I will be playing 66% of my matches on levels agreed upon by the 'outside', and by playing on those other 33% i will be gaining knowledge about the game that they aren't, so I'm happy with that...

what I'm not down with is how ridiculously uncompromising some people are being... the "SF" way of playing has been around for well over a decade, and you'll note that in order to even describe another way of thinking about a fighter, a comparison had to be made to something outside of fighting games... not only does that say something about the mentality, it also is a testament to how unique brawl is too (but that's getting slightly off topic)

and jans final point actually i find really misses the mark... they are not equally competitive... they are all equal in the "yomi" sense, but from a technical point of view they are not... it's why people don't take online seriously, because the balance is so far onto "yomi" that the technical skill is moot... it's why people thought Ally was going to lose, until they found that his tech skill was equal to his yomi skillz, and those skillz are definitely paying the billz

adding in things like port town will definitely make the game less competitive, I know i said it was kosher before, but after playing on it a bunch (more than one sitting with harold) I have gone back to wanting it banned... the cars influence play way too much... I'm totally down for playing on all the levels, for fun or to win, but when I have money on the line, a line has been drawn, and there are certain aspects of a lot of 'not broken' levels which just don't follow the nature of what I am willing to place money on

peach/gw/luigi etc. their random moves, I 100% am willing to place money on a system which allows those, because overall I find that the benefit gained is minimal in the grand scheme of things... wario ware, I am not...

not to cause drama, but I'm getting tired of facing this un-wavering wall... I really have appreciated your openness to the game, and I think I've become a better player because of the discussions, but I'm at the point now where I think I've got it right, and I was hoping to meet you guys here but I don't think it's going to happen... I've pretty much said everything I can say, so I'm out of these discussions (and please refute, I don't want to say this is the end and then not give someone a chance to say what they want, but I won't be responding to it)... by approaching each level in the 'can i break it' mentality, brawl is not a good competitive game and isn't worth putting the time into... by approaching each level with 'i want the least in my way FD / BF / SV baby' brawl is not a good competitive game and isn't worth putting the time into

 

[jan]

what I'm not down with is how ridiculously uncompromising some people are being. [...] not to cause drama, but I'm getting tired of facing this un-wavering wall...

I'm sure the feeling is pretty much mutual across all the debaters. That being said, I hope you're not taking this whole thing personally. The changes you suggested to the stage list were good, but for some reason they haven't been implemented yet.

Me, I just hate the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality that's responsible for the current rule set.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm half-and-half.

For one, I'd love to play on Port Town with tourney rules. The other, he's right. Stage ****. A hazard that powerful has no place in a tourney, regardless of how "obvious" it is to dodge.

I'm halfway on that for Big Blue. Big Blue is an awesome stage with hazards no different from Jungle Japes. However, it's slightly bigger, and more suited to adaptable players (<3). This would be a strong counterpick for Pit, and players that play by the seat of their ***.

 

[LivewiresXe]

I'm not sure where I stand on this. Both occasionally have good points, but I think both also occasionally go about things differently than I would've or have different views on things from me (obviously). What little changes do or don't get done probably won't bother me either way, as long as the game play, competitive or not, is still fun.

 

[chesterr01]

chet - $10 SF4 MM first time we see eachother after the game comes out (if I can use a stick)?

can we do it for honor?

and i haven't played in a while, i have to go at elef's and beast his yoshi and akuma.

 

[CHAOSvsORDER]

While certainly not the greatest of players, Harold and I have had tons of exp of many levels, including port town. I totally thought that it would ruin the gameplay and interfere to much, but I have found it to be quite easy to adapt to. I think it'd be best if the next non biweekly smashfest should have some level of dedication to play testing levels and seeing how bad they really are. After we have enough experience I believe that our debates will come to an end; or at least we shall be better informed. Until then, like Ben, I am backing out of the debate here.

 

[Fogel]

I've been busy this week so haven't posted much. For the debate, I'm with Ben. I don't mind levels where you have to pay some attention to the stage, but there are stages where you have to worry about the level just as much as/more than the opponent. I doubt those of you who support levels such as Port Town would be happy if you lost a grand finals match because you hit a car/wall at 30% and died. In that example, can you really say you lost because you were the worse player?

The really extreme stages, as have already been identified, should stay banned.

Some of you have probably already seen this, but I found another rule set in Tourney Discussion. Here's UmbreonMow's Competitive Brawl rule set (those of you who are pro-wacky stages won't like it):

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205140

The number of neutral stages is kind of sparse, and they went a bit overboard with bans, but aside from that I like it.

Now, I'm not completely against the 'All-Brawl' mentality...I sort of helped set up our first All-Brawl tourney, after all Those of you who want to try to play seriously under that ruleset are welcome to set up a tourney during a non-Biweekly week at my place. I would probably even play in it. However, no one seems to have tried to seriously set up a tournament with this ruleset lately.

 

[Suo]

***FOR PEOPLE INTERESTED IN SF4 AND ARCADE STICKS***


EB games is now stocking the SF4 Fight Stick, retailing at 70$ for PS3 80$ for 360.
The stick has been confirmed by SF arcade stick experts to be one of the best you can buy straight out of the box.


I just preordered one down at EB today, for 360, so that I now have a PS3 stick and a 360 one, so that I can go to tourney's using either console.


If anyone was looking for a stick this is the one to buy, if you're interested pre-order now, because supplies will be very limited.

NINJA EDIT

Here's a video detailing the 2 sticks and fightpads. The guy in the video is Seth Killian, head of community relations at Capcom.

http://shoryuken.com/?p=749

I'm gonna be reluctant to lend out my Tourney Edition stick guys, especially when I first get it.

So if you wanna get serious give these sticks some thought!

 

[joblin]

The only thing a really dislike about New Pork City is the extremely zoomed out camera at times.
Skyworld = ghey.

Being an artist and game designer I was extremely disappointed in the visual style of SF4 and strongly believe that if they stuck with the 3D and made it look as close to their advertisements (with the strong black brush strokes) as possibly, it would make for a hell of a SF. Plus Ryu looks like a complete ****** with downs, have no clue how it passed the final cut.

 

[Linkshot]

Joblin, you don't dislike that Fox can shoot you and run away for the other 6 minutes and 50 seconds?

 

[Suo]

Being an artist and game designer I was extremely disappointed in the visual style of SF4 and strongly believe that if they stuck with the 3D and made it look as close to their advertisements (with the strong black brush strokes) as possibly, it would make for a hell of a SF. Plus Ryu looks like a complete ****** with downs, have no clue how it passed the final cut.

The Style has improved from when it was first shown, I originally wasn't a fan of it.

I agree that more brush stroke usage would have been amazing, but I'm actually very happy with the final look anyway.

Make sure you check out the game in motion when it comes out, or catch some HD footage if you can, because this game is effing beautiful.

P.S. I agree Ryu looked a lil funky, but he's grown on me.

 

[joblin]

No... not really. But it makes for a hell of a tag game, haha

I'll definitely play the game but I find that it would have given the game that much more of an edge if it was in that style. It looks good this way but nothing that is blowing me away.

 

[LivewiresXe]

The only SF4 thing that initially bothered me was Dan's look at first since the first shots I saw had him look really kinda chubby and fat. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore though (at least...not as much).

 

[jan]

Wow, Suo, you are hardcore! Buying an arcade stick for a system you don't even own! We'll have to organize plenty of SFfests to make it worth your while!

Edit: Akuma, Gouken, Dan, and C. Viper all look really fun to play! The hype is building for me.

 

[Suo]

Wow, Suo, you are hardcore! Buying an arcade stick for a system you don't even own! We'll have to organize plenty of SFfests to make it worth your while!

Edit: Akuma, Gouken, Dan, and C. Viper all look really fun to play! The hype is building for me.

Yea man, well SFIV is gonna be my competitive game from here on out. Yea SF fests for sure!

There are soo many sick looking chars, honestly I have no idea who I'm gonna main yet.


P.S. Fun times with everybody at Ben's last night! I had a wicked bad headache though, I think I drank too much >.>

 

[IvanEva]

If anybody's interested in coming over tomorrow, post/PM/msn/call/whatever. It's been a while since I've Smashed.

Suo: Let's start organizing some official SFIV release get together, like, place and time and all that.

EDIT: \/ Depends on who, if anyone else, comes. Bring Pat if he's up for it.

 

[Linkshot]

If I have a way to get there, I'm up for it until further notice, Harold. You're not gonna torture my limbs again, right?

 

[mosesrko24]

Harold: I might show up. I might not, but if I do atleast I posted ahead of time

 

[Linkshot]

I'm probably going to make it, Harold. There's still the possibility of me getting an IM or phone call with "Please stay home today <333" in it.

 

[infomon]

Harold: I can't make it waaaah

Linkshot: Please stay home today <333

 

[Fogel]

Harold: I can't make it waaaah

Linkshot: Please stay home today <333

That wasn't a phone call or an IM

 

[joblin]

What happened to the girl who didn't pay her exorcist bill?

 

[CHAOSvsORDER]

She got rpade by the exorcist?

 

[Fogel]

They possessed her again?

 

[PND]

She got audited?

 

[LivewiresXe]

Absolutely Nothing?

 

[arsenic41]

I am so lost -_-

 

[PND]

I am so lost -_-

I just lost.