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Ottawa Ontario Canada HD Remix
- Thread starter IvanEva
- Start date
infomon
Smash Scientist
happy bday buenob!!
IvanEva: wow.... just wow......... that game is soooo balanced
IvanEva: wow.... just wow......... that game is soooo balanced
arsenic41
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2007
- Messages
- 807
Happy Birthday Ben!
IvanEva: I would, but only if you can do me a small couple of favours:
1) get my lecture notes off of my profs for the day
2) get me a ride there
3) switch MK vs DCU into anygame that doesn't suck
4) play said game that doesn't suck instead of Mk vs DCU
IvanEva: I would, but only if you can do me a small couple of favours:
1) get my lecture notes off of my profs for the day
2) get me a ride there
3) switch MK vs DCU into anygame that doesn't suck
4) play said game that doesn't suck instead of Mk vs DCU
PND
Smash Champion
Happy Birfday Ben!
joblin
Smash Apprentice
Happy 'act or instance of being born' Day Ben!
PND
Smash Champion
Ben, are there going to be festivities or celebrations in regards to the anniversary of your emergence into this cruel world?
Because if not, I'm getting you drunk sometime.
Because if not, I'm getting you drunk sometime.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Hey, happy birthday, Ben!
joblin
Smash Apprentice
Haha!
Hey Ben ~ approx 9 months + (insert your age) = your parents 'bumped uglies'
A bit scared to think about huh? I kid, I kid.
IvanEva
Smash Ace
I'm sorry Ben, I'm too broke to buy you MK vs. DCU for your birthday like I wanted to. 
EDIT: Here's a post that I found very interesting as it seems to reflect perfectly the difference between my way of viewing stages and Ben's:
By KishPrime:
" "Art of War" vs. "Street Fighter" Approach to Stages
Helios was asking about trimming stages down to three, and I've had thoughts about this in the past. Here's how I see the two camps on this.
The first camp is what I like to call the "Training Mode" or "Street Fighter" mentality of the game. The stage should stay out of the way of my strategies and combos, and the mindgame should only be between myself and the opponent with no distractions. This leads to an artificial environment of 2 or 3 stages being determined worthy within a game of 26 stages. There is nothing wrong with this mentality.
Others are in the "Art of War" camp, or total game mentality. Remember Sun Tzu? Every feature of a stage can be an asset or a hindrance and should be used accordingly. We don't get angry when bottleneck and run-away tactics are used, unless it is truly unbeatable (Hyrule/Termina), as it is a natural part of using the stage. Stages are not distractions from the battle but tools to use in battle that enhance the metagame and mental battle, not detract from it.
Both perspectives are fine to have. I personally enjoy the mental battle that comes from out-maneuvering my opponent on a stage, but I know that many do not. However, to me it seems that the training mode mentality is far more present in the community than the Art of War mentality. This debate really comes back to our perspective on the game.
I might like to expand on this at some point for an article later. Any suggestions/comments?"
EDIT II: Cam, you should be more like The Question...
EDIT: Here's a post that I found very interesting as it seems to reflect perfectly the difference between my way of viewing stages and Ben's:
By KishPrime:
" "Art of War" vs. "Street Fighter" Approach to Stages
Helios was asking about trimming stages down to three, and I've had thoughts about this in the past. Here's how I see the two camps on this.
The first camp is what I like to call the "Training Mode" or "Street Fighter" mentality of the game. The stage should stay out of the way of my strategies and combos, and the mindgame should only be between myself and the opponent with no distractions. This leads to an artificial environment of 2 or 3 stages being determined worthy within a game of 26 stages. There is nothing wrong with this mentality.
Others are in the "Art of War" camp, or total game mentality. Remember Sun Tzu? Every feature of a stage can be an asset or a hindrance and should be used accordingly. We don't get angry when bottleneck and run-away tactics are used, unless it is truly unbeatable (Hyrule/Termina), as it is a natural part of using the stage. Stages are not distractions from the battle but tools to use in battle that enhance the metagame and mental battle, not detract from it.
Both perspectives are fine to have. I personally enjoy the mental battle that comes from out-maneuvering my opponent on a stage, but I know that many do not. However, to me it seems that the training mode mentality is far more present in the community than the Art of War mentality. This debate really comes back to our perspective on the game.
I might like to expand on this at some point for an article later. Any suggestions/comments?"
EDIT II: Cam, you should be more like The Question...
i think you harold are too "art of war" and the smash community is too "SF" , and that's my opinion...
yeah, the levels are a big part of learning the game, but during a competition, when your "score" for the round doesn't depend on the level being played, it makes a big difference...
for example, lets say someone _really_ likes skyworld... and I mean, they know _everything_ there is to know about this level, and their main characters playstyle was developed unintentionally to be amazing at that level (basically they just played that level over and over to learn how to play, so naturally the style would sut the level)
now we enter a tournament... this person is basically garunteed a round off of me (don't dismiss this as johns, it's a serious concern)... the problem is to be able to actually compete at that level, I would have to spend as much time learning about that specific level as the other person (or at least gain the same amount of knowledge about it), and with so many levels, that will be very hard to do...
enter a tournament, and all of a sudden everyone will have 2-3 levels which completely complement their character/style, so in order for a well rounded player to win, they have to beat someone who is very skilled at a 'neutral' level, then attempt to compete with them in their arena, and then attempt to win on a level of your choosing... unless you have 2-3 levels yourself (obviously one will get banned, and personally I prefer 2 bans each, but i'm getting off topic) you are going to be inherently at a disadvantage...
ie. the only way to be on equal competitive grounds with an opponent is to play a character that can severely take advantage of a group of levels...
currently, the "SF" approach is too far in the other direction... by banning all levels that 'get in the way' too many characters are at a disadvantage because the game was not designed with this in mind... a very select subset of characters get advantages, while the rest do not get hindered...
a balance needs to be struck... just saying "because I can't break it, it should be legal" really is as closed minded as "I don't like it and therefore it should be banned"... remember, we've already decided to modify the core game via the exclusion of items, the implementation of a stock-time standard, and even special rules governing who actually won the match (the games core allows for a tie, we do not)... the goal is to create the best competitive environment (wow i sound like a broken record sometimes), and to me, that would be to balance the "art of war" and "street fighter" styles so that both are equally valid approaches to competitive play, and neither would significantly have an advantage over the other
yeah, the levels are a big part of learning the game, but during a competition, when your "score" for the round doesn't depend on the level being played, it makes a big difference...
for example, lets say someone _really_ likes skyworld... and I mean, they know _everything_ there is to know about this level, and their main characters playstyle was developed unintentionally to be amazing at that level (basically they just played that level over and over to learn how to play, so naturally the style would sut the level)
now we enter a tournament... this person is basically garunteed a round off of me (don't dismiss this as johns, it's a serious concern)... the problem is to be able to actually compete at that level, I would have to spend as much time learning about that specific level as the other person (or at least gain the same amount of knowledge about it), and with so many levels, that will be very hard to do...
enter a tournament, and all of a sudden everyone will have 2-3 levels which completely complement their character/style, so in order for a well rounded player to win, they have to beat someone who is very skilled at a 'neutral' level, then attempt to compete with them in their arena, and then attempt to win on a level of your choosing... unless you have 2-3 levels yourself (obviously one will get banned, and personally I prefer 2 bans each, but i'm getting off topic) you are going to be inherently at a disadvantage...
ie. the only way to be on equal competitive grounds with an opponent is to play a character that can severely take advantage of a group of levels...
currently, the "SF" approach is too far in the other direction... by banning all levels that 'get in the way' too many characters are at a disadvantage because the game was not designed with this in mind... a very select subset of characters get advantages, while the rest do not get hindered...
a balance needs to be struck... just saying "because I can't break it, it should be legal" really is as closed minded as "I don't like it and therefore it should be banned"... remember, we've already decided to modify the core game via the exclusion of items, the implementation of a stock-time standard, and even special rules governing who actually won the match (the games core allows for a tie, we do not)... the goal is to create the best competitive environment (wow i sound like a broken record sometimes), and to me, that would be to balance the "art of war" and "street fighter" styles so that both are equally valid approaches to competitive play, and neither would significantly have an advantage over the other
double post --
andrew-harold (joblin if you want to ditch your girlfriend like my friend pat is doing) send an email to arya at carleton d0t ca with "global game jam" in the subject to say you are attending... it's individual sign ups, and then you form teams... but everyone shows up as a team lol
andrew-harold (joblin if you want to ditch your girlfriend like my friend pat is doing) send an email to arya at carleton d0t ca with "global game jam" in the subject to say you are attending... it's individual sign ups, and then you form teams... but everyone shows up as a team lol
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Happy B-day Ben!
Man, I'm so imbalanced in arguments! I go from one side to the other quickly x.x
I see how both are valid choices, but I prefer the "Art of War" style much more, due to being an adaptable player. My knowledge and skill is well-rounded, not poured into using only top tiers on only Neutral stages.
Maybe instead of banning a stage tourney-wide, have the option for players to ban it for free (not using up one of their other bans). Each player would get 3 OTHER bans. 1 Neutral Ban, 1 CP Ban, and 1 "Limbo" Ban (anything not stated as Neutral or CP). If you don't use your Neutral Ban, you can choose to ban an extra CP and an extra Limbo, or just not use it at all. So, the possibilities for banning would be (mind's speeding and brakes are dead; sorry):
A) 1 N, 1 CP, 1 L
B) 2 CP, 3 L
C) 2 N
D) 6 L
It's slightly complicated, but when listed as four choices, it's not that bad. I'll probably get flamed for this, but, well, it just feels a lot less aggressive toward stages that would appeal to a casual.
Man, I'm so imbalanced in arguments! I go from one side to the other quickly x.x
I see how both are valid choices, but I prefer the "Art of War" style much more, due to being an adaptable player. My knowledge and skill is well-rounded, not poured into using only top tiers on only Neutral stages.
Maybe instead of banning a stage tourney-wide, have the option for players to ban it for free (not using up one of their other bans). Each player would get 3 OTHER bans. 1 Neutral Ban, 1 CP Ban, and 1 "Limbo" Ban (anything not stated as Neutral or CP). If you don't use your Neutral Ban, you can choose to ban an extra CP and an extra Limbo, or just not use it at all. So, the possibilities for banning would be (mind's speeding and brakes are dead; sorry):
A) 1 N, 1 CP, 1 L
B) 2 CP, 3 L
C) 2 N
D) 6 L
It's slightly complicated, but when listed as four choices, it's not that bad. I'll probably get flamed for this, but, well, it just feels a lot less aggressive toward stages that would appeal to a casual.
Harold, vote for it plzkthx
way too complicated, and the more complicated the system the more 'broken' it can become if not balanced properly lol...
if two players agree to a stage, then by all means play on it... but then again, you wouldn't want to waste time saying 'want to go xxxxxx? no, how about yyyyyyy? ok then zzzzzzz? no now aaaaaa'... not enough to get rid of all the levels that need banning imo...
not a bad idea, but practically impossible to balance the numbers on how many limbo/cp/neutral bans to give each player, and then stage striking/banning will take _forever_
if two players agree to a stage, then by all means play on it... but then again, you wouldn't want to waste time saying 'want to go xxxxxx? no, how about yyyyyyy? ok then zzzzzzz? no now aaaaaa'... not enough to get rid of all the levels that need banning imo...
not a bad idea, but practically impossible to balance the numbers on how many limbo/cp/neutral bans to give each player, and then stage striking/banning will take _forever_
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
I say leave it as is, personally. The way it's set up seems fine to me, and this is from someone who's come last in every bi-weekly he's played in.
lol i noticed alan, ariel and harold all pitching in on the 'official legal stage' thread joining infzy and I and many others in the choir of 'don't be ban happy' so I wasn't particularly surprised to see it surfacing here lol
also, it never really stopped (at least for me)... can we not have some kind of debate about smash in a forum that is dedicated towards smash? lol... just don't read what you don't want to
mike -- i have class tomorrow morning and then absolutely nothing scheduled until the bi-weekly... otherwise I would definitely just head back with you guys (if there was room)... that and I have to hand in a resume somewhere tomorrow right after class... i guess this isn't directed at mike but is there anyone who would want to go out and play in kemptville tomorrow // friday
also, it never really stopped (at least for me)... can we not have some kind of debate about smash in a forum that is dedicated towards smash? lol... just don't read what you don't want to
mike -- i have class tomorrow morning and then absolutely nothing scheduled until the bi-weekly... otherwise I would definitely just head back with you guys (if there was room)... that and I have to hand in a resume somewhere tomorrow right after class... i guess this isn't directed at mike but is there anyone who would want to go out and play in kemptville tomorrow // friday
PND
Smash Champion
Seriously, anyone who wants to:
Go for it. I'll probably pick up a 24 or something and we can get smashed (or stay sober if desired, we won't judge!) and play smash / rock band.
Go for it. I'll probably pick up a 24 or something and we can get smashed (or stay sober if desired, we won't judge!) and play smash / rock band.
arsenic41
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2007
- Messages
- 807
if you guys can get me a ride there...I am totally up for it.
PND
Smash Champion
Jump on it guys. >_>
I <3 you all and want to show it before I leave.
I <3 you all and want to show it before I leave.
PND
Smash Champion
Me Mike? Or other Mike?
PND
Smash Champion
I'll figure this stuff out tomorrow. Possibly we could get into Ottawa somehow and do things there, but no promises.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
So wait, are people going down to Kemptville and getting smashed and playing Brawl tomorrow or Friday? *sigh* Maybe I should start reading things more thoroughly.
if i can make it up tomorrow at some point, im' down for partying until the bi-weekly, then making the trip in for that... if not, you guys should totally try to make it into the city, 'cause i'm doing nothing and so is randy apparently lol
point is, we should get together somehow... how? up to the gods
edit - pm me your cell number so I can get in touch with you if needed
oh, and post the confirmation # on here for nikoK
point is, we should get together somehow... how? up to the gods
edit - pm me your cell number so I can get in touch with you if needed
oh, and post the confirmation # on here for nikoK
joblin
Smash Apprentice
I can see both sides of 'Art of War' and 'SF' but seeing how Super Smash Bros. was designed it only makes sense to make it an 'Art of War' play style. We're already altering the gameplay as is to make it more competitive.
Here is one of my suggestions for stage picking.
I do like the way it is right now where you start off with a Neutral Stage and then counter pick a stage. My suggestion would be that at the beginning of the match each player picks a stage of their choice to include in the random/counter pick stages. That way you will always get different stages, depending on your opponent, that you wouldn't play otherwise. Eg. I personally love to play on Spear Pillar but seeing how it is banned we never get to play on it other than friendlies. This way I could include Spear Pillar in the pile of stages that I might be able to pick, depending on the outcome of the games and the opponent picks a stage of their choices as well. It's not a bullet proof suggestion but I think it could work to some degree.
Wait what's going down with a party?
Here is one of my suggestions for stage picking.
I do like the way it is right now where you start off with a Neutral Stage and then counter pick a stage. My suggestion would be that at the beginning of the match each player picks a stage of their choice to include in the random/counter pick stages. That way you will always get different stages, depending on your opponent, that you wouldn't play otherwise. Eg. I personally love to play on Spear Pillar but seeing how it is banned we never get to play on it other than friendlies. This way I could include Spear Pillar in the pile of stages that I might be able to pick, depending on the outcome of the games and the opponent picks a stage of their choices as well. It's not a bullet proof suggestion but I think it could work to some degree.
Wait what's going down with a party?
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
The way I see it with the Art of War vs Street Fighter approaches, different approaches work best for different stages. Hell, I randomly played a game as Marth for the hell of it, and started playing him/her like Black Orchid from freaking KI Gold. Freaky thing is, it seemed to work.
PND
Smash Champion
My cell is: sicks won 3 - ate sicks three - won ate oh 7
Encoded to prevent bots.
And Niko's not making it in until past Midnight now.
We'll figure something out in the morning. PS. RILEY, ANSWER YOUR **** PHONE!
EDIT: Fixed because I'm stupid.
Encoded to prevent bots.
And Niko's not making it in until past Midnight now.
We'll figure something out in the morning. PS. RILEY, ANSWER YOUR **** PHONE!
EDIT: Fixed because I'm stupid.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Jobin, the thing about that would be both players then having a "surefire win" counterpick.
8 sicced 3, then 1 ate 5 at 7?! Murder at Digit Mansion!
8 sicced 3, then 1 ate 5 at 7?! Murder at Digit Mansion!
the cellular number I have called is un-assigned... wtf?
anywho, are you still able to make the trip in? i'll pm you my number (again?) call me if there's anything I can do to make this process easier... if need be I can put niko up for one night, but can't really garuntee more than that
anywho, are you still able to make the trip in? i'll pm you my number (again?) call me if there's anything I can do to make this process easier... if need be I can put niko up for one night, but can't really garuntee more than that
PND
Smash Champion
K, I'm stupid and put the wrong number (my home number and cell are off by a single number, so I confused them)
but I edited in the fixed version.
but I edited in the fixed version.
CHAOSvsORDER
Smash Journeyman
If I am to trust David Sirlin, then the Art of War approach is the same as the SF approach in essence. Only ban something if it compromises the game to the point where it is rendered unplayable.
arsenic41
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2007
- Messages
- 807
I has no car
IvanEva
Smash Ace
I'd much rather discuss the Ottawa stage stuff here as I'm not terribly fond of other threads. It's easier for something to spread if it's a region that's doing it first. Take Randy adopting the Niagara ruleset for example. If they didn't do it first we'd still be with the old one.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Well, IMHO, I always thought we should just find/stick with something that's widely accepted so that the people who go to the big tournaments or whatever/people who come down here, don't have all that much to adjust to.
arsenic41
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2007
- Messages
- 807
I just realized...let just say for the sake of example, that Harold manages to convert everyone to his way of think about stages. If we were the only region doing this, then Niagara/GTA/Montreal won't show up to ottawa because our rule set will be too different.
yeah but a lot of these levels DO break the game and render it unplayable... they may not be broken by themselves, but playing on them is so far from playing on anything else that it deserves to be banned in competitive play... it's like a different game...
you keep quoting sirlin, but really, how 'competitive' do you feel you are towards brawl? I keep getting told that I'm very competitive, and while I definitely am (and love competition) I'm no where near as competitive as some...
i was playing some online today for the first time ever (trusty brawl fc code now permanently planted online for all to see) and I can really see why people rag on it... there's like a .25 second delay on pretty much everything... while the game itself is completely the same, you now _must_ play psychic brawl because there's no way to power shield or dodge without anticipating it (I think this is why ally is so god ****ed good... he's basically playing in your head the whole time)... from sirlins point of view, does this break brawl? no... does it make it significantly less competitive, yes.
edit -- lol you're just realizing this now?? fail
I am a pretty ****ed harsh critic about this... I was perfectly content playing FD only in melee, so for me to be where I am means part of what harold is saying really makes sense to me, and I do think that given the opportunity can be proven to the rest of the smash community that it's a more competitive game than the current ruleset allows... it's why I continue with these debates... who's to say we can't do it?
to me, a lot of this isn't about which levels are considered for the CP list, but the Neutral list... there are some levels that need to be banned... period... weather they are broken or not, if people actually go as far as to dislike a level, and if enough people did, then it should be banned...
bed time for me... class at 8:30
you keep quoting sirlin, but really, how 'competitive' do you feel you are towards brawl? I keep getting told that I'm very competitive, and while I definitely am (and love competition) I'm no where near as competitive as some...
i was playing some online today for the first time ever (trusty brawl fc code now permanently planted online for all to see) and I can really see why people rag on it... there's like a .25 second delay on pretty much everything... while the game itself is completely the same, you now _must_ play psychic brawl because there's no way to power shield or dodge without anticipating it (I think this is why ally is so god ****ed good... he's basically playing in your head the whole time)... from sirlins point of view, does this break brawl? no... does it make it significantly less competitive, yes.
that is just wrong... they are two distinctly separate philosophies of how to think about competitive brawl as outlined in the explicit explanation (ie. by definition they are not the same)... it's like saying raspberries and strawberries are the same thing because they are both a fruit, or less tastily and more relevant, that playing offensively and defensively are the same thing...
edit -- lol you're just realizing this now?? fail
I am a pretty ****ed harsh critic about this... I was perfectly content playing FD only in melee, so for me to be where I am means part of what harold is saying really makes sense to me, and I do think that given the opportunity can be proven to the rest of the smash community that it's a more competitive game than the current ruleset allows... it's why I continue with these debates... who's to say we can't do it?to me, a lot of this isn't about which levels are considered for the CP list, but the Neutral list... there are some levels that need to be banned... period... weather they are broken or not, if people actually go as far as to dislike a level, and if enough people did, then it should be banned...
bed time for me... class at 8:30
jan
Smash Cadet
My problem is that people seem to throw the word "competitive" around way too much, when often times they mean "deep" or "complex". Any game can be competitive. Random elements have nothing to do with it - in fact, Sirlin mentions games like Magic, Poker, and even Survivor. He's also very quick to point out that in Magic, even though you're randomly drawing cards from a deck, the same tournament players have very consistent placings. A zero random game isn't any more or less "competitive" than a game that has some things left to chance.
That being said, I was perfectly serious about the ban talk about Luigi, Peach, DeDeDe, and others. If you lost the match because Luigi misfired, Peach blows you up, or DeDeDe throws a Gordo, how is it any different than a bomb hitting you on Pirate Ship or a car hitting you in Port Town? Someone will bring up the odds of those attacks compared to stage hazards, but it's irrelevant. It's in the game.
I don't really care if people want to make Smash into a zero random game, but at least be consistent. If you're taking out random elements, remove them all: items, stages, and characters. If not, then leave it all alone and stop trying to justify decisions based on a scrubby attitude.
PS: Does anyone know why Luigi's Mansion was banned in our biweeklies even though nothing broken ever happened there?
That being said, I was perfectly serious about the ban talk about Luigi, Peach, DeDeDe, and others. If you lost the match because Luigi misfired, Peach blows you up, or DeDeDe throws a Gordo, how is it any different than a bomb hitting you on Pirate Ship or a car hitting you in Port Town? Someone will bring up the odds of those attacks compared to stage hazards, but it's irrelevant. It's in the game.
I don't really care if people want to make Smash into a zero random game, but at least be consistent. If you're taking out random elements, remove them all: items, stages, and characters. If not, then leave it all alone and stop trying to justify decisions based on a scrubby attitude.
PS: Does anyone know why Luigi's Mansion was banned in our biweeklies even though nothing broken ever happened there?
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
I think the Luigi's Mansion being banned story is that whenever somebody had a match there in the Bi-Weeklies (not naming names, since I could have the wrong person in mind), that they would always end with time running out.