Ottawa Melee Thread - Updated Summer 2016 Power Rankings!

[LivewiresXe]

I have to say Mike, that sounds like a pretty good idea. Though, Sundays is something I dunno, lol.

 

[Charlesz]

IC's do very well at tourny's. I recall there was a socal tourny where Fly won. I'll look for the link. Fly runs through lots of people and consistently does well at tournies ( until he runs into mango ). And the disabling fox's upsmash arguement is bogus. Wobbling is a UNESCAPABLE punishment that ends the stock of a character at any percent from x to death. Upsmash is nothing like that, it is a killing move. You can sheild it, you can DI it. What your saying would be like getting rid of falcon's knee, banning rest, and banning falco's lasers.

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[Charlesz]

Your basically saying that w/o wobbling , then IC's are done. IC's have lots of options out of grab other than wobbling. Now your talking about how IC's would be screwed w/o grabs. I wasn't talking about how IC's shouldn't grab, I was talking about how IC's shouldn't be able to wobble.

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[Charlesz]

Holy crap do I have to derail all your misconceptions. By not implying wobbling in the paragraph before your last one , you are saying that if you got rid of IC grabs then they are screwed. Yes I agree with that, but that has nothing to do with what we have been talking about for the last 4 pages. If you haven't noticed we were talking about why wobbling should be banned , not how well IC would do w/o grabs.

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[Charlesz]

My point is that you haven't given me a legit reason why wobbling should be legal. And if you can't give a good reason why wobbling should be legal, then why should it be legal?

 

[PND]

1) The place is really nice, pretty sure I'm gonna take it. Not sure if we're taking it for April or May yet though, that's up to my roommates.

2) It isn't that far away from Kanata. Well, geographically it is. Just take the 96 to Lincoln Fields then take the 86. It's like less than a minute walk from there.

3) To Wobble or not to Wobble?
Whether 'tis nobler in the game to suffer
The grabs and combos of outrageous misfortune,
Or to ban it against a sea of complaints
And, by banning, gimping them. To gimp, to play
No more – and by a gimp to say we end
The frustration of the thousand stolen stocks

Spoiler

Hamlet FTMFW

I personally don't care whether Wobbling is banned or not. I'm just gonna bair all day.

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[Charlesz]

1) The place is really nice, pretty sure I'm gonna take it. Not sure if we're taking it for April or May yet though, that's up to my roommates.

2) It isn't that far away from Kanata. Well, geographically it is. Just take the 96 to Lincoln Fields then take the 86. It's like less than a minute walk from there.

3) To Wobble or not to Wobble?
Whether 'tis nobler in the game to suffer
The grabs and combos of outrageous misfortune,
Or to ban it against a sea of complaints
And, by banning, gimping them. To gimp, to play
No more – and by a gimp to say we end
The frustration of the thousand stolen stocks

Spoiler

Hamlet FTMFW

I personally don't care whether Wobbling is banned or not. I'm just gonna bair all day.

PND is too good. =]

 

[BL!TZ]

kk so...whats your point...?
If you havent noticed...Chris being the TO, already allowed wobbling...so whats more to discuss?

I said I'm for it being legal but I'm waiting until the 20th of April until I am fully convinced by either side.

My point is that you haven't given me a legit reason why wobbling should be legal.

How about taking some time to write out something, preferably in point form but it doesn't matter, fully explaining why wobbling shouldn't be legal. It can be as short or long as you like. I encourage everybody who has an opinion to do so. I see Vanitas has already done so before, but he is welcome to make an updated version. I want people's arguments in a tidy format so it's easier for me to make a decision.

Edit: Lol @ PND's Hamlet post.

Edit 2: Okay, that helps with the decision making Charlesz. Thanks.

 

[Charlesz]

Thats comin from seasoned veteran like Fogel. Obviously he knows better than all of us.

Deh you go!

wobbling is imbalanced.

It gets rid of your characters ability to move and can be USED to stall a match which is why peach bombing, freeze glitch's are banned.....

everyone gets grabbed and the only argument for people who want wobbling is "dont get grabbed" which is ridiculous. If dont get grabbed works then "powershield everytime" is a valid excuse for being laser spammed. Except getting grabbed usually leads to taking a hit or two in the wobbling's case one grab leads to one stock completely gone. Now if people are going to argue then why are cg's and shines allowed??!?!@# because you can DI, tech and atleast have a CHANCE to survive while with the wobbles the only chance you have of not dieing is if your opponents messes up.....which isnt going to happen because the wobbles is jabs and ftilts. lol. Now go back and watch ken vs pc chris or m2k vs any other top player in the u.s.a all of these pros average 10-20...if the best in the world are being grabbed 10-20 times in a single match how is wobbling not imbalanced? everyone gets grabbed...ofcourse skilled people can reduce the amount of times we are grabbed but still 4 grabs = you lose the match if your playing ice climbers aka imbalanced.

Look back at recent bannings of levels/techniques. Peach bombing was banned because it can stall meaning you can get in %'s ahead then stall the whole match ofcourse the counter to this is "dont let him get ahead" which is also ridiculous. Peach bombing was a very powerful and imbalanced technique which is why it was banned. Same with Onett/Hyrule because of Fox players. These are very one sided matchs when a Fox counter picks one of these levels especially Hyrule. Why? because Fox can simply laser, get percentage and run away for 7 minutes. Imbalanced which is why Hyrule was banned. It was unfair to other characters. Ofcourse the counter to Fox on Hyrule is "dont get lasered."

I have an idea lets all "Not get hit" and were automatically the best in the world! YAY! lol gg




There you go! Not getting grabbed is stupid.

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[Charlesz]

You do know wobbling is EAASSYY to do right? It is not possible to escape it. The post above from quoted from a veteran.

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[Charlesz]

That is because only 4 people posted. Me you Chris and Mike. I think it should be, you think it shouldn't be, mike is neutral, chris is deciding.

 

[Charlesz]

Chloroform will be the deciding factor.

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[BL!TZ]

We could just have the alternative rule. Which is as follows:

Wobbling is not banned if both players agree to it. If one of the players wants it banned, then it will be for that set.

I remember reading something like that somewhere, but I forget where. I guess it's just avoiding the problem, but people who don't want wobbled don't get wobbled and people who don't care get wobbled.

Edit: It hurts people who wobble though so I won't jump to this solution yet.

Edit 2: Charlesz got the 1337th post in this thread so maybe I should just listen to him, lol.

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[BL!TZ]

They don't think it should be banned. But they don't have a clear argument. Besides, this isn't a Democracy. TO is the one who decides. But the rules should as fair as possible so I'll do my best to listen to what others think.

Edit: That includes minorities. Otherwise the majority could screw people over if they are dumb.

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[BL!TZ]

That's true, lol. That's why I want to listen to both of you. I'll sort out both arguments in a way I can fully see them and weigh out what I think is a better position.

By the way Vanitas, how did you get so many posts so quickly?

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[Charlesz]

We could just have the alternative rule. Which is as follows:

Wobbling is not banned if both players agree to it. If one of the players wants it banned, then it will be for that set.
I remember reading something like that somewhere, but I forget where. I guess it's just avoiding the problem, but people who don't want wobbled don't get wobbled and people who don't care get wobbled.

Edit: It hurts people who wobble though so I won't jump to this solution yet.

Edit 2: Charlesz got the 1337th post in this thread so maybe I should just listen to him, lol.[/QUOTE]

This, I agree. **** SOCAL.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm fine with Wobbling.

Also, I skipped a whole page due to tl;dr, but...can't Fox Waveshine the lasers? >.>

 

[BL!TZ]

If you mean using the shine and then wavedashing out, then ya you can. But when Fox and Falco are hit by projectiles while the use shine, they are stunned momentarily. So it kind of ****s up their timing and they are probably to stunned for too long to make any use of the reflection (or at least I think they would be). Powersheilding would be harder but it's more rewarding.

We posted a lot today about wobbling, lol. I may have to ask Al and Charles some questions at some point. Just to have some details in specific arguments.

 

[arsenic41]

I had a massive wall of pain to post here, but then that isn't fun.

so

TL;DR Wobbling shouldn't be banned, get over it Charles.

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[PND]

I'm legit scared of Randy's Pichu

 

[KirbyKaze]

wobbling is imbalanced.

It gets rid of your characters ability to move and can be USED to stall a match which is why peach bombing, freeze glitch's are banned.....

everyone gets grabbed and the only argument for people who want wobbling is "dont get grabbed" which is ridiculous. If dont get grabbed works then "powershield everytime" is a valid excuse for being laser spammed. Except getting grabbed usually leads to taking a hit or two in the wobbling's case one grab leads to one stock completely gone. Now if people are going to argue then why are cg's and shines allowed??!?!@# because you can DI, tech and atleast have a CHANCE to survive while with the wobbles the only chance you have of not dieing is if your opponents messes up.....which isnt going to happen because the wobbles is jabs and ftilts. lol. Now go back and watch ken vs pc chris or m2k vs any other top player in the u.s.a all of these pros average 10-20...if the best in the world are being grabbed 10-20 times in a single match how is wobbling not imbalanced? everyone gets grabbed...ofcourse skilled people can reduce the amount of times we are grabbed but still 4 grabs = you lose the match if your playing ice climbers aka imbalanced.

Look back at recent bannings of levels/techniques. Peach bombing was banned because it can stall meaning you can get in %'s ahead then stall the whole match ofcourse the counter to this is "dont let him get ahead" which is also ridiculous. Peach bombing was a very powerful and imbalanced technique which is why it was banned. Same with Onett/Hyrule because of Fox players. These are very one sided matchs when a Fox counter picks one of these levels especially Hyrule. Why? because Fox can simply laser, get percentage and run away for 7 minutes. Imbalanced which is why Hyrule was banned. It was unfair to other characters. Ofcourse the counter to Fox on Hyrule is "dont get lasered."

I have an idea lets all "Not get hit" and were automatically the best in the world! YAY! lol gg




There you go! Not getting grabbed is stupid.

If you cap wobbling at 250% or so, then it can't be used to stall. I agree that someone wobbling to 999% and not stopping until the time runs out is stupid and OP. But if you cap the damage limit with a percentage like 250%, that's avoided.

Freeze Glitch is banned because if Nana U/B-throws, you often won't be able to physically regrab the opponent. It can permanently remove the opponent's ability to play with you. Removing a stock (wobbling) is not comparable to permanently removing your opponent's interactivity for the remainder of the game. The fact that the U/B-throw happens completely randomly on the bulk of the stage (she always F/B-throws near the edge to put them offstage) is also problematic.

In a similar vein, you cannot compare Hyrule to Wobbling for the same reason. Don't get lasered on Hyrule is a poor argument because lasers are unavoidable. They are a full screen, horizontal projectile that has no lag on the overall fastest character in the game. The sections where you can hide from lasers involve ledges or walls, which are also broken for Fox (Shine/Infinites). Hyrule, like the freeze glitch, completely removes interactivity from your opponent because you have such a monstrous time to react when you're ahead. Some of the earliest games on Hyrule in tournament were 20 minute Fox dittos because neither would approach. The circular stage model in this game is inherently horrible. And because it is a stage, the game is permanently non-interactive. Unless, of course, your opponent is also Fox, which also brought about things like over-centralization and rendering characters non-viable. Wobbling, to my understanding, does not make every character but Ice Climbers non-viable in the same way that Hyrule said, "Play Fox or lose".

Permanently removing the opponent's interactivity, and reducing the entirety of the game to Solitaire ft. Gamecube Controller, is why most of the stalling tactics are banned. But Wobbling doesn't facilitate that (so long as a percentage cap is in place).

On that note, Wobbling, with proper mashing, will also be escaped below 40%, which adds a conditional factor. I've seen it broken at 60% by Caveman, in person, but he's really good at it, so let's say what usually gets tossed around: 40%. Provided you mash, it is not a simple matter of being grabbed four times at any percent. Granted, this is less applicable to characters like Sheik that can be D-throw CGed, but for the large portion of the cast that cannot be CGed, they have to hit up to about 40% (anywhere between 2 and 4 hits) and then do it if they can mash competently. In addition to the percentage requirement, there is also the requirement of a synched up Nana (which means she has to be alive, which can be a hassle, since Nana dies really fast in a lot of matchups), which can be excruciatingly difficult to have handy.

Four grabs, I agree, is an unreasonable task. But luckily because of all the situational factors that need to be met, it's usually not just "if you ever get grabbed four times, you lose".

Also, comparing Ken vs PC Chris vs Mew2King and implying that their ability to procure grabs is reflective of how effectively Ice Climbers can acquire grabs makes no sense. Fox and Marth reputably have some of the easiest methods to acquire grabs because of their incredible dash dance camping capacities, generally absurd movement game, and move --> grab combo (Shine --> grab is amazing). They're also much, much more equipped for knockdown --> grab tech chases than the Ice Climbers are because of Marth's range, Fox's Shine, useful knockdown moves, and other factors.

 

[Linkshot]

Hi Kazeeeeeeee~
Yay wall of text regarding legality <3

There are so many fun stages that are removed T.T

 

[BL!TZ]

If Charlesz doesn't make a good argument against KirbyKaze's points, then Wobbling will be legal. I think he is the only one against it.

Thanks KibyKaze, for the input!

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[KirbyKaze]

FTR I'm not trying to convince you that Wobbling is perfectly fair because it's probably the gayest thing in the game when it connects (that or Rest), and Wobbling generally is banned.

However, I think that if people are going to talk about why Wobbling is banned in relation to other banned things, they should understand that Wobbling does not do what most of the banned stages and tactics do, in terms of permanently removing interactivity and over centralization.

Wobbling, if anything, is most comparable to some of the debatable counterpick stages, where it's largely the discretion of the tournament host. Midwest in particular is fairly liberal with stages, and the Pound 4 ruleset is hardly a fully-accepted standard. Lots of people disagree with the Pokemon Stadium / Stage Strike change.

 

[Charlesz]

KK makes some really good points. I don't have time to argue and I probably could not beat KK in this arguement. I leave it up to Chris to decide.

 

[BL!TZ]

@ KirbyKaze: Thanks a lot for all the information! It really helped to clear things up.

@ Chalesz: If you ever think of anything regarding wobbling after the tournament, feel free to bring it up.

I'll decide now that Wobbling will not be banned. I'll write out the rule set tonight, but it'll probably be a copy and paste of the MBR ruleset.

 

[Vanitas]

Edit: disregard

 

[Get@Will]

Is this just a small local tournament?