LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
I remember seeing you guys try that Randy, the world almost collapsed on itself. 
-
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Ottawa Bi-weeklies, because illegal gambling is perfectly legal
- Thread starter arsenic41
- Start date
PND
Smash Champion
We transcended time and space. It was beautiful.
Remilia Scarlet
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2008
- Messages
- 70
Hey Cam, I may have accidentally hunted down the Eric you know while invading Kevin's workspace. What was his last name? And would you recommend me randomly introducing myself?
Ariel: I shall be there, more than happy to fight as usual. I think my second half is also coming. He will be more than happy to fight as usual. As for tips, pfft, you already know everything I could possibly teach you, quit being pseudo modest
Ariel: I shall be there, more than happy to fight as usual. I think my second half is also coming. He will be more than happy to fight as usual. As for tips, pfft, you already know everything I could possibly teach you, quit being pseudo modest
The_Jiggernaut
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2008
- Messages
- 649
Hey, guys! The biweekly was awesome. Had a lot of fun.
Thanks for doubles again, Alan! We did pretty well this time around. Though after doubles, my energy started to taper off, so I was not playing at my best for the Swiss singles.
Speaking of Swiss, this was the first time I had tried it, so I'd like to make a few comments on it.
Obviously it has its ups and downs. The up side is that no matter what you get to play a bunch of serious matches, no matter how poorly you do.
The down side is how one wins the tourney. First off, you basically have to win ever match if you really want to win, because someone will probably win every match in that they play. Unless you win every match, you have to depend on you other opponents doing poorly in matches against other people in order to win. Because of this, your placing doesn't just depend on how you do against your opponents, but on the turnout of matches that have nothing to do with you, and I'm not sure I like that. Also, although it seems that a Swiss tourney gives you more chances than a double elimination tourney, if you lose only one match and some other opponent wins all their matches, you will not win the tournament and therefore actually have less of a chance. On top of that, if you lose two matches, there is no way you will win the tournament, so therefore you can only have an equal or lesser chance winning a Swiss tourney than you have with a double elimination tourney.
And on top of that, the matches didn't feel as dire to me, since there was no chance of elimination if I lost. It was more like just playing random, but planned out, matches though the night. Because of its potential for having lots of matches, I could see us using it at smash fests to make everyone play everyone else.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I just felt that opinions should be given when we try new things.
TL;DR version: I prefer Double elimination over Swiss.
For the tie break system, I'd like to suggest taking into account the number of matches lost. Since the third match isn't played if someone wins the first two matches, the number of losses is not connected to the number of wins. If one player beat all of his opponents 2-0 and the other beat most of his opponents 2-1, then the first player is obviously the stronger. I feel that this tiebreak should be used before considering the sum of opponents' matches and games won.
Just a suggestion, Comparing the number of matches lost.
If things got REALLY convoluted, though, you could add a seventh: Comparing the sum of the opponents' matches lost. Same logic as your 4 and 5, if a player has played against players who have lost less matches, then he or she must have been fighting tougher opponents, and deserves a better placing.
Thanks for doubles again, Alan! We did pretty well this time around. Though after doubles, my energy started to taper off, so I was not playing at my best for the Swiss singles.
Speaking of Swiss, this was the first time I had tried it, so I'd like to make a few comments on it.
Obviously it has its ups and downs. The up side is that no matter what you get to play a bunch of serious matches, no matter how poorly you do.
The down side is how one wins the tourney. First off, you basically have to win ever match if you really want to win, because someone will probably win every match in that they play. Unless you win every match, you have to depend on you other opponents doing poorly in matches against other people in order to win. Because of this, your placing doesn't just depend on how you do against your opponents, but on the turnout of matches that have nothing to do with you, and I'm not sure I like that. Also, although it seems that a Swiss tourney gives you more chances than a double elimination tourney, if you lose only one match and some other opponent wins all their matches, you will not win the tournament and therefore actually have less of a chance. On top of that, if you lose two matches, there is no way you will win the tournament, so therefore you can only have an equal or lesser chance winning a Swiss tourney than you have with a double elimination tourney.
And on top of that, the matches didn't feel as dire to me, since there was no chance of elimination if I lost. It was more like just playing random, but planned out, matches though the night. Because of its potential for having lots of matches, I could see us using it at smash fests to make everyone play everyone else.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I just felt that opinions should be given when we try new things.
TL;DR version: I prefer Double elimination over Swiss.
==Swiss stuff details, skip this section if you don't care==
For Swiss tiebreaks, guess what, we needed a 5th tiebreak system
For the tournament, we used, in order:
1) Match wins
2) Game wins
3) Head to head
4) Comparing the sum of opponents' match wins
Ben used this to determine 3rd/4th place between Derek and Orlando. There were a few similar ties for some of the lower places. However, even after all that, there were still 2 ties to break! For both Linkshot/Knuckles, and Moses/HiDef, they had the same number of match and game wins, never played head to head, and their opponents' total match wins were exactly the same.
To resolve this, I added a fifth tiebreak:
5) Comparing the sum of opponents' game wins
The logic is the same behind why the sum of opponents' match wins was used in 4).
Namely, if you got the same match record as someone but played opponents who had more wins, it means you were playing tougher competition, and deserve to place higher.
For this tournament, a fifth tiebreak was enough, but even more levels might be necessary as it's still possible for there to be ties even with this condition added. Does anyone have any suggestions? These will be added to the algorithm for the Swiss program.
For the tie break system, I'd like to suggest taking into account the number of matches lost. Since the third match isn't played if someone wins the first two matches, the number of losses is not connected to the number of wins. If one player beat all of his opponents 2-0 and the other beat most of his opponents 2-1, then the first player is obviously the stronger. I feel that this tiebreak should be used before considering the sum of opponents' matches and games won.
Just a suggestion, Comparing the number of matches lost.
If things got REALLY convoluted, though, you could add a seventh: Comparing the sum of the opponents' matches lost. Same logic as your 4 and 5, if a player has played against players who have lost less matches, then he or she must have been fighting tougher opponents, and deserves a better placing.
i work 5:30 - 11:30 this friday, so I will be unable to attend...
as for tips... here's how I think I can be beat pretty easily...
step1 - realize my tech skill is horrid... I don't know if anyone has noticed yet, but my actual "skill" at this game is appalling... sure I can angle my laser and shoot my top where i want, but that's it... i miss techs and I can't powershield for the life of me...
step2 - realize you play extremely predictably... even derek is pretty easy to read... there's really not many moments when I'm playing where I absolutely have no clue what's about to happen... learning how to space for the most _good_ options is key... i try to stay in a range where i can ftilt, dash-grab, fsmash or jump fair, and even then when i show jump-fair, I try to mix that up with either nair, bair or nothing... I find people space for their "best" option a lot, and I hurt them for it... I think the best at this would be andrews game'n'watch... while semi-predictable, he definitely throws me off a lot... this isn't to say that I get predictable too, but I find that more of a by-product of me seeing whats happening and knowing it will work, but failing at my timing (bad tech skill)...
step3 - get the timing of robs nair down, and then gimp me ... watch andrew or randy (add to an extent derek) and you'll see me eat as many of their attacks during my nair as they shield / get hit combined... i try really, really hard to make the startup lag of robs up-b un-noticeable too, but it's there, and I definitely get an advantage when it's not deserved because people aren't 100% sure of when they can punish me
1 and 3 are for me, but 2 is pretty universal...
this isn't to say that a brick wall strategy isn't good (easy to read, hard to get around ie falco) but at some point, it will be beat, and you've got to have something else there
anyways, hope those were some good tips
as for tips... here's how I think I can be beat pretty easily...
step1 - realize my tech skill is horrid... I don't know if anyone has noticed yet, but my actual "skill" at this game is appalling... sure I can angle my laser and shoot my top where i want, but that's it... i miss techs and I can't powershield for the life of me...
step2 - realize you play extremely predictably... even derek is pretty easy to read... there's really not many moments when I'm playing where I absolutely have no clue what's about to happen... learning how to space for the most _good_ options is key... i try to stay in a range where i can ftilt, dash-grab, fsmash or jump fair, and even then when i show jump-fair, I try to mix that up with either nair, bair or nothing... I find people space for their "best" option a lot, and I hurt them for it... I think the best at this would be andrews game'n'watch... while semi-predictable, he definitely throws me off a lot... this isn't to say that I get predictable too, but I find that more of a by-product of me seeing whats happening and knowing it will work, but failing at my timing (bad tech skill)...
step3 - get the timing of robs nair down, and then gimp me ... watch andrew or randy (add to an extent derek) and you'll see me eat as many of their attacks during my nair as they shield / get hit combined... i try really, really hard to make the startup lag of robs up-b un-noticeable too, but it's there, and I definitely get an advantage when it's not deserved because people aren't 100% sure of when they can punish me
1 and 3 are for me, but 2 is pretty universal...
this isn't to say that a brick wall strategy isn't good (easy to read, hard to get around ie falco) but at some point, it will be beat, and you've got to have something else there
anyways, hope those were some good tips
CHAOSvsORDER
Smash Journeyman
Remilia: If I did not need tips, I'd be doing more competently against you guys. Anyhow, hopefully we can get some good matches in and if you could point out some holes that need to be tightened that would be PAW-SOME!
Ben: Yeah, my spacing is pretty 'needs improvement' and I am kinda predictable. I'll be trying to mix things up a bit in my play style Friday. Next biweekly if you can make it out, maybe I'll be able to take a round off you.
Everyone else: Play me play me!
EDIT: Jiggernaut: I say the main problem with the Swiss was that we didn't play again =)
Ben: Yeah, my spacing is pretty 'needs improvement' and I am kinda predictable. I'll be trying to mix things up a bit in my play style Friday. Next biweekly if you can make it out, maybe I'll be able to take a round off you.
Everyone else: Play me play me!
EDIT: Jiggernaut: I say the main problem with the Swiss was that we didn't play again =)
BananaTrooper
Smash Journeyman
dyou guys mind if i bring a buddy along? he doesnt play smash, and will probably only be watching. lemme know if there's a problem.
also, should I be expecting a shortage of consoles/games? i can bring a gc over if we're short a station
How many people still play melee anyways? has brawl completely taken over Otown, or are there still a few cool people to be found ()
also, should I be expecting a shortage of consoles/games? i can bring a gc over if we're short a station
How many people still play melee anyways? has brawl completely taken over Otown, or are there still a few cool people to be found (
)
Remilia Scarlet
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2008
- Messages
- 70
I suspect bringing a friend would be fine since it's not a bi-weekly, but as usual, wait for cam's OK. Also my jiggs will teach you fear rawr
--
Ariel: Just WoP me. See below.
I've always thought my placing on the tier list to be too high since I've lost to people lower than me on many occasions. Although I know why that is; I tend to bring myself into my opponent's game, and if it's not something I'm use to, I guess I'll be a bit off. That said, I guess I'll accept it because when the others in this tier fight me, they know I'll play their game and kick them to loser's. :3 :> :< <3
--
Ariel: Just WoP me. See below.
I've always thought my placing on the tier list to be too high since I've lost to people lower than me on many occasions. Although I know why that is; I tend to bring myself into my opponent's game, and if it's not something I'm use to, I guess I'll be a bit off. That said, I guess I'll accept it because when the others in this tier fight me, they know I'll play their game and kick them to loser's. :3 :> :< <3
PND
Smash Champion
Fogel
Smash Lord
Smashboards ate my original response, so this one will be of lower quality than I wanted:
Remilia: His last name is Bourlier, we worked together a couple of years ago. Hopefully he remembers who I am. He is a good guy and you should definitely introduce yourself
Jiggernaut: Yes, there are tradeoffs between Swiss and Double Elim. The upside is that it gives everyone (including our 'lower tiers') more experience in tournament matches. The downside is as you mentioned (I would also add that tiebreakers can seem arbitrary to people). I am not opposed to going either way, but we ran the first Swiss tourney as an experiment and people seemed pretty happy with it. We have been going back and forth between the two, I expect this will continue unless a majority of people are fed up with either double elim or swiss, and we get rid of one.
Also, yes, using losses in tiebreaks is a good idea. I did this for Swiss biweekly #1 as well as for ToSes. I will add this to my algorithm
Ben: Since you won't be here this Friday, could I get you to send me what you have for XML format/saving/loading sometime this week? Kevin and I would like something to start with.
BananaTrooper: You can bring a friend, but they might be bored if they're non-smashers. There aren't too many Melee players, but there are enough so that there's usually one Melee tv going full time. You don't need to bring your cube, I've already got one.
Remilia: His last name is Bourlier, we worked together a couple of years ago. Hopefully he remembers who I am. He is a good guy and you should definitely introduce yourself
Jiggernaut: Yes, there are tradeoffs between Swiss and Double Elim. The upside is that it gives everyone (including our 'lower tiers') more experience in tournament matches. The downside is as you mentioned (I would also add that tiebreakers can seem arbitrary to people). I am not opposed to going either way, but we ran the first Swiss tourney as an experiment and people seemed pretty happy with it. We have been going back and forth between the two, I expect this will continue unless a majority of people are fed up with either double elim or swiss, and we get rid of one.
Also, yes, using losses in tiebreaks is a good idea. I did this for Swiss biweekly #1 as well as for ToSes. I will add this to my algorithm
Ben: Since you won't be here this Friday, could I get you to send me what you have for XML format/saving/loading sometime this week? Kevin and I would like something to start with.
BananaTrooper: You can bring a friend, but they might be bored if they're non-smashers. There aren't too many Melee players, but there are enough so that there's usually one Melee tv going full time. You don't need to bring your cube, I've already got one.
CHAOSvsORDER
Smash Journeyman
PND: Hurry back! Without your shenanigans life has become a cold, harsh place.
Remilia: I'll try! I'll be bringing my wii so along with serious games I think I'll also take a break and mess around with Customs(anyone up for Soccer? ...AND WIP!?!)
Jiggernaut/Cam: I like Swiss but the thing with it is that it's less exciting like Andrew already said. In DblElim, Grand Finals are always really long, but when everyone's watching and cheering it just makes everything so much more...
Epic? Intense? You know what I mean.
Anyhow, are we going to be switching it up by going DblElim 1 week, Swiss the next week, etc.?
Remilia: I'll try! I'll be bringing my wii so along with serious games I think I'll also take a break and mess around with Customs(anyone up for Soccer? ...AND WIP!?!)
Jiggernaut/Cam: I like Swiss but the thing with it is that it's less exciting like Andrew already said. In DblElim, Grand Finals are always really long, but when everyone's watching and cheering it just makes everything so much more...
Epic? Intense? You know what I mean.
Anyhow, are we going to be switching it up by going DblElim 1 week, Swiss the next week, etc.?
Remilia Scarlet
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2008
- Messages
- 70
You're right, that would be reason to lower someone's tier a couple notches. :D:DFixed.
Fogel
Smash Lord
Yeah, I think switching between the two is best.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Usually signups start on the Monday of the week of the bi-weekly Just saying.
Just saying.IvanEva
Smash Ace
Yoonobi: PM Fogel to get his permission. This Friday isn't a bi-weekly day but it'd be nice to have you there nevertheless.
CHAOSvsORDER
Smash Journeyman
...So where's Arsene?
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Apparently his parents got scared or something.
Fogel
Smash Lord
Plank 2: Revenge of the Plank. This tournament had a limit of 50 edge grabs, so old school planking won't suffice. How will Plank run the timer down to victory?
This video is much more entertaining if you follow Plank's play-by-play:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233671
Harold, now that you've sold out to the tier list, I expect to see such tactics next biweekly
This video is much more entertaining if you follow Plank's play-by-play:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233671
Harold, now that you've sold out to the tier list, I expect to see such tactics next biweekly
CHAOSvsORDER
Smash Journeyman
Did they move him with his auntie and uncle in bel-air?
EDIT: D amn, I was expecting someone else to add in another line.
Anyhow, we usually go out to eat after a smashfest and I usually don't end up going home til 2-2:30.
Afro Boy2000
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2007
- Messages
- 207
LOL.. I might be there this friday. I haven't been there for a while cause my parents where worried and pissed about me getting home at like 2:00 am. Is this normal for you people??
I'll try to make it but it won't be easy.
Remilia Scarlet
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2008
- Messages
- 70
Hey Cam, what is the earliest I can show on friday? Work is starting to want me to come in earlier, but that means I get off earlier, so I can I show up sometime around 4:30-5?
in west philledeplphia, born and raised, on a playground I spent, most of my days
chillin' out maxin' and relaxin' all cool and shootin' some b-ball outside of the school
when couple of guys, who were up to no good, started making trouble in my neighbourhood...
in one little fight, my mom got scared and she said "you're movin' in with your auntie and unlittlecle in bell-air"
I whistled for a cab, and when it came near there was a ...... and dice in the mirror
if anything I could say to this cabbie was where but I thought nah forget it, "Yo Holmes! to Bell-Air!"
good enough for ya? I can only not remember 1-2 words.... also I really wish I could show up this friday... I was playing around in practice mode at my friend Aris' place today, and I need to change my controls to get this RoB AT going... I can do it now, but I don't think it's that useful... lol
chillin' out maxin' and relaxin' all cool and shootin' some b-ball outside of the school
when couple of guys, who were up to no good, started making trouble in my neighbourhood...
in one little fight, my mom got scared and she said "you're movin' in with your auntie and unlittlecle in bell-air"
I whistled for a cab, and when it came near there was a ...... and dice in the mirror
if anything I could say to this cabbie was where but I thought nah forget it, "Yo Holmes! to Bell-Air!"
good enough for ya? I can only not remember 1-2 words.... also I really wish I could show up this friday... I was playing around in practice mode at my friend Aris' place today, and I need to change my controls to get this RoB AT going... I can do it now, but I don't think it's that useful... lol
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Wow man, that's uh...impressive.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I. Pulled.
Up to a house, about seven or eight.
And I yelled to the cabby, "Yo, Homes! Smell ya later!"
Looked at my kingdom; I was finally there!
To sit on my throne, as the Prince of Bel-Air.
(PS: It's "On the playground is where I spent most of my days". I watch Fresh Prince nearly every day; it's on after Dr. Phil >.>)
Up to a house, about seven or eight.
And I yelled to the cabby, "Yo, Homes! Smell ya later!"
Looked at my kingdom; I was finally there!
To sit on my throne, as the Prince of Bel-Air.
(PS: It's "On the playground is where I spent most of my days". I watch Fresh Prince nearly every day; it's on after Dr. Phil >.>)
PND
Smash Champion
-5 cool points for watching Dr. Phil
+1000 cool points for watching Fresh Prince
Best sitcom ever.
+1000 cool points for watching Fresh Prince
Best sitcom ever.
IvanEva
Smash Ace
Television is a waste of time. It's more productive to play games.
Arsene: I'm usually home by 1:20AM or so. If you leave as soon the bi-weeklies are over you should be able to make it home by 12pm. That or just leave when you're eliminated.
Arsene: I'm usually home by 1:20AM
or so. If you leave as soon the bi-weeklies are over you should be able to make it home by 12pm. That or just leave when you're eliminated.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I hope you mean 1:20 AM, Harold. Getting home before the sun comes up isn't exactly an accomplishment, I'd say.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
I wasn't under the impression any character was getting banned...
CHAOSvsORDER
Smash Journeyman
PND
Smash Champion
Ottawa might as well ban Snake when I come back.
In the meantime, ban ROB. >_>
In the meantime, ban ROB. >_>
Fogel
Smash Lord
5 at the earliest.
Afro Boy2000
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2007
- Messages
- 207
After how mad and worried my parents got from the last time, leaving anytime after like 9:00 is out of the question. I can't do both singles and doubles anymore (too much time).Television is a waste of time. It's more productive to play games.
Arsene: I'm usually home by 1:20AM
Linkshot
Smash Hero
But you came home safe. They should see the logic in that and believe in you now. (Because we all know parents will never believe in their children)
CHAOSvsORDER
Smash Journeyman
He might have come home safe, but he was with a bunch of randos that play games until 12AM at a fairly distant location. I mean, he is still in gr 11 right? I'd worry too if I was his parent.
That said, try to come out when you can. I can assure you that no one here is going to try and go all bubba on you.
That said, try to come out when you can. I can assure you that no one here is going to try and go all bubba on you.
IvanEva
Smash Ace
Arsene, this friday isn't a bi-weekly day so you should be totally fine coming at 5pm and leaving before 9pm. You should be able to get more than enough games in in that time. After playing with us enough times your parents will no doubt begin to have a bit more confidence in us. Either way, come play on the non-bi-weekly days. If you're looking for "serious business" just do money matches on that day.
As much as I love Fresh Prince, the title of best sitcom ever has to go Seinfeld. Larry David is just too good.
pastaboy
Smash Champion
good for you..jack