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Omni: Should We Still Use Custom Moves in Smash 4?

Omegaphoenix

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Anyone who tries to support an argument over a fighting game by saying "Well, the top players..." Should be flogged. The top players, like ZeRo and anyone else, benefit from meta stagnation. It is literally in their best interest to damage the advancement of the meta, because then they never have to learn new ****, so they can keep making money. And screw that. Let's actually make ZeRo work for a victory you guys.

Also, I can't be the only one annoyed by the fact he said assess instead of access at point 3
 

Saikyoshi

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"Diddy only. Better yet, go back to Fox. Melee Fox."
-Omni, yet again
 
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S_B

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By Omni's logic, DLC characters should never be legal because they belong in a "different meta" as the game doesn't come with them and you have to go buy them and may not be willing to do that.

But ultimately, I think it's irrelevant. Is the custom tier list THAT different from the normal tier list? FFS, customs were on in Evo and the final match still came down to Shiek...and...Diddy.

Customs make some characters slightly more viable, sure, but the difference is marginal at best. "Airbender Kong" didn't come close to taking Evo, nor did the infamous camping villager.

See, I could definitely get behind the whole "two metas" thing if the custom tier list looked INSANELY different from the regular tier list (like Bowser and Shuk were A-tiers in custom or something crazy like that), but the simple fact is that customs didn't cause that kind of a shake-up (or any real shake up at all).

Is it going to be necessary to adjust to fighting Bowsers with dash slash or Palutenas with light speed? Sure, but it's not like this was hard for any of the top players who whined about customs so much because top 8 was still filled with top players using mostly vanilla movesets...
 

JesseMcCloud

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Until dlc characters get custom moves, 1111 is the way to go.
Furthermore, articles containing any of these videos should be marked NSFW.
 

DairunCates

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They were supposed to, ya. But, serious question: How did those improved options, and the more diverse options, actually do when tested in a competitive environment? For 90% of the cast, even if they became strictly better, they still fell flat and failed to get results. That means, strictly if diversity was the end goal, customs have failed.
So, top 32? Not AS much. Top 128. Quite a bit (which is a big deal at EVO). We saw a Charizard win their pool with customs. We saw quite a bit of variation in general too. Someone did a chart and found that only about 6 characters weren't shown on stream during pools. This is quite a big difference from other recent majors.

We also saw TWO Wii Fit Trainers in top 32, a character that a lot of people think is one of the worst in the game.

Focusing on purely top 8 results ignore actual data for the sake of insisting on perfect results. Face it. If heavily customed characters HAD taken over the Top 8. People would instead be arguing about how broken they are instead of how "they didn't change that much." Some people still do.
 

◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ

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Evo was bad for customs, but not for the reasons we thought.
Sure, the jank was there, but worse than that was after all it took to get them set up they were generally not used; additionally they did virtually nothing to balance the game nor make it any more exciting than CEO (which had a lot of exciting matches from a variety of characters).
The point was never to make the game more exciting, but rather to expand upon what we already had, and I'd argue EVO did that just fine. Anyone who expected customs to provide an overhaul to the game was, quite bluntly, foolish; there's no possible way they could change the meta entirely with how they function. Their purpose within the metagame is just to expand possibilities in the matchups and allow for players to go with whatever sets they enjoy the most.

Given how slow the Smash 4 community has been to both adapt and be willing to adapt (begging for nerfs, complaining about rage, not adjusting to the new ledge mechanics fast enough), it seems to me like people just don't want to learn more matchups -- further evidenced by many tournaments not having customs on despite them leading the way to EVO. We'd been given plenty of time to learn the basics of the game's matchups prior to customs being introduced, so expanding them should never have been a concern... but a sizable portion of the community arbitrarily made it all out to be one.

I will say this, though. If people want to back off on them for now just so they can get more accustomed to the game, it might just be the best thing for the community. Why? Because of what I just went over, that's why. This community always seems to want to slowly inch further into the water as opposed to jumping straight in, so if customs are to be a thing, perhaps dropping them for the time being is the way to go. It's a sad thing, really, but it's nothing new.

Focusing on purely top 8 results ignore actual data for the sake of insisting on perfect results. Face it. If heavily customed characters HAD taken over the Top 8. People would instead be arguing about how broken they are instead of how "they didn't change that much." Some people still do.
Double standard logic at its finest.
 
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Lukingordex

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I think customs should be allowed for characters that are low or mid tier without them and banned for characters that are already high tier or better without them.

I do think it's cool too see Palutena, Wii Fit Trainer, DK, and others characters of the sort getting a little buff, but at the same time I don't like to see Pikachu with a move that kills at 40% with a single read or Sonic using Side B 90% of the time.

If the only options we can choose are custom on or off for every character, i'd vote for off.
 
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shane3x

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The biggest thing hurting customs being the standard going forward is the logistical side. Having to unlock them for one. Even if there was a $5 unlock dlc people are going to want to create their own sets but for logistical purposes touney's will probably only allow certain sets which I feel goes against what Customs are trying to introduce. The game patches have generally been balanced around Vanilla moves anyway.
 

Sabaca

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2 more arguments against customs:
1) DLC chars don't have any
2) Players are limited to sets someone else chose. e.g. Dabuz couldn't take the down b he wanted.
 

-LzR-

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If you start looking at the default 1111 as just one of the different sets of customs you can have having the legal starts making a lot more sense. Customs not being allowed everywhere by default is just one of the reasons I rarely mention I play Smash to people outside of the scene, because I am extremely embarrassed to be one sometimes.
 

erico9001

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I am arguing against Omni's 3 points (and others) made in the video.

1) "Top players are against customs."
Well, of course they are. Not all, but a lot of these top players play specific characters for the movesets and coding, not because of who the characters are. They wouldn't care about whether a specific character has the option to counterpick a customs set which would help the MU, because there is no reason not to just counterpick a character they know is better. Well, a lot of people and I want those options. We don’t all just play characters for their stats. We like them for some reason. I like Shulk. This is why I want to be able to choose to use Dash Vision, which helps in MU's where opponents have projectiles. I know I could just go pick up Sheik. Learning that character would be much easier than learning Shulk. Anyways, because I like Shulk, I want to win tournaments using Shulk. Without customs, well, I don’t have dash vision, so all it takes is, say, one Mega Man player. If we are even in skill and assume nothing extraordinary happens during the match: he wins, because Mega Man has the advantage in the match-up. Now, considering that situation could have been prevented if customs were pressed on, isn't that annoying?

You might think 'I understand, but custom moves don't do anything for my character.' I ask: Are you sure? In the Shulk boards, since the start of the custom moveset project, we have had one of the most active customs discussions. We're on our third thread now! Even then, we're still discovering, to this day. We have gone back and forth since the beginning on the uses of each of the custom moves. It has been quite the adventure. I have had to overcome many beliefs and opinions about certain custom moves. Right now, we’re considering if a previously held to be useless move is actually helpful against Sheik and other combo characters! That would be wondrous. This is what I love about customs. There is much to discover, and potential to make match-ups less polarized/decided before they start.

2) "1 meta > 2 metas"
Maybe, but this is an argument for customs too! Possibly a better one. Anyways, @Omni I see you are trying to consider the long-term health of Smash 4's future when you argue this. However, the truth is the farther and farther you look into Smash 4's future (I see it!:4shulk:), the more and more it makes sense to have customs legal.

One of the only remaining arguments against customs is the logistics. 'How can we make this work?' Of course, a lot has already been done here. @Amazing Ampharos underwent an extraordinary project which organized customs into pre-sets and made them much, much simpler to work into tournaments. From this, many communities have made it standard to be using customs (I think even Qatar is using or considering it now). Very clearly, we saw customs working at EVO. Fortunately, it does not stop there, because customs only will become easier from now on.

Let’s start by pointing out you only need to load customs onto a Wii U once. Once they are on there, they are on there. Therefore, when that Wii U makes it to another event in the future, the customs do not have to be loaded again. What this means is as time goes on, loading customs onto a Wii U will continue to become rarer. For the Wii Us which do need to have customs added to them, there is the wonderful fact that you only need one 3ds which has the customs unlocked. Those can be quickly transferred to the system. Again, more people will come to have all customs unlocked on 3ds’s, giving ample cushion room to the community. As time increases, the effort allocated towards having custom moves will keep decreasing, approaching an irrelevant unit. Though, I repeat, even in the present, there is not as much effort needed towards using customs as you might think.

More future gazing: this game is still a toddler. I can understand if some people see learning about customs as an effort. However, with the coming future, people keep expanding their knowledge of custom moves.

I think a good thing to consider when eyeing up the future of this metagame is the general amount of fun there is to be had in participating in it. Look at Brawl. That meta stagnated. After a while, without customs, this game will probably too. Eventually, you reach a time where you know the players, know the tiers, and know the match-ups. At that point, Sakurai has stopped balancing things. There is less fun due to less exploration. There is not much to be surprised about. The game just gets old. That is when the community starts shrinking. However, we can prevent that future! It does not have to be the case, because we have customs! These add non-random variability which expands the different situations of the game exponentially! You retain the sense of originality and exploration for a much longer time, which in turn makes the game more interesting and more fun. In reference to Omni’s video, Vanilla is alright, but when you eat it over and over it gets repetitive and boring. Toppings are what change that. Customs are what change that.

3) (summarized) "You are playing the same meta as everyone else when buying the game." "YOU must place effort into unlocking all custom moves!"
Whoa, hold on. This argument would only be true if you considered facing CPU’s to be the meta. A person does not need to unlock all customs on their system(s) in order to participate in the customs meta. All you probably want is your main’s customs, and possibly your secondary’s. That allows you to use them and get the hang of them. Any customs of other characters would be on your opponent’s system if playing online or already at your tournament (since, again, all it takes is one person to have them on his 3ds. By no means do all participants have to do this). However, what’s especially glaring about this argument is you don’t even need any customs to participate in a customs-inclusive metagame! As ZeRo and other players proved at EVO, you can succeed using a 1111 moveset. This is a wonderful thing about the ‘customs meta:’ it includes the ‘non-customs meta!’

Customs benefit the Smash metagame. They provide great opportunities to the individual and community level of Sm4sh. However, it should be no surprise that on their first major use there was dissent to them. That's usually the case for any change - good or bad. Other than people whining, customs went pretty well, and we should continue using them in the future! What a waste it would be for all of the discoveries and exploration we have place into these to be useless due to incorrect reasons!

Going back to Omni's point 2, if we are to pick just 1 meta to continue in, we would actually want to pick the 'customs meta.' As I said, the 'customs meta' allows you to play without customs. It is not called the 'only customs meta.' However, the 'no customs meta' totally restricts all of us from using customs. There are no options. So... If we want to avoid upsetting the majority of the community by restricting them unnecessarily, customs ON would be the correct choice.

@Omni I'm going to tag you again here even though it's pointless since you only get one notification, because I really, really hope you consider these arguments! I've spent several hours thinking and typing, and it only takes a few minutes to read. Please :p? It's pretty important I feel that you understand these arguments I make, for your voice reaches more people than my fingers.
 
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Z1GMA

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Many ppl like/dislike customs depending on the character(s) he/she uses.

From a Sonic's perspective, customs mostly benefits other characters.
From a Ganon's perspective, customs are very welcome.
 

Meta1

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okay, perhaps that last statement might be pushing extremes, but this probably sums up a majority of how I feel towards this debate.

I personally seem to get the impression that Top players "Don't enjoy facing customs" because it's a whole lot more things to adjust to... that perhaps the impression of adapting to more than what the vanilla game already has is overwhelming.

I do see the justification of complaining how much of a hassle unlocking the customs is, though. it'd be nice if Sakurai and the devs made it easier to tilt the RNG of custom items to the player's preference...
STFU UR JUST MAD BECAUSE LITTLE MAC BEAT YO ASS
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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They were supposed to, ya. But, serious question: How did those improved options, and the more diverse options, actually do when tested in a competitive environment? For 90% of the cast, even if they became strictly better, they still fell flat and failed to get results. That means, strictly if diversity was the end goal, customs have failed.
So people basically want to see Ganondorf always struggle with his recovery, while Charizard has to avoid hitting anyone while trying to recover with Flare Blitz?

While not all custom specials are worth using, some of them are actually on the beneficial side. And of course, Palutena has her own unique custom special moves, which can help her recovery options more.
 

WwwWario

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I'm both for and against them.

I love them because they give variety and lets you customize your playstyle.

I'm against them because, as Omni said, it will create more metas, and so much to adapt to. Also, people say that Customs make some characters viable that normally aren't, but I feel a character shouldn't need Customs in order to be usable. That's Update Patch buffing's job. Ganon is my main, and I don't want to "have" to use the Dropkick for him to be viable. I want to be able to use normal Ganon, the way he is supposed to play, and have him be good.
 

-LzR-

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Come on guys, Charizard not committing suicide with sideB is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game.
 

12er

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I'm personally ok with customs, but some of them are questionable for competitive play. EX. campy custom villager and some of palutena's customs.
 

U-Throw

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F) Give us a consistent game, where every character has only one moveset to go and that's it.
Do you want a game where you can pop up on a tournament with different variations of moves? Go play Pokémon.
When I play Smash I want a consistent game where Ganondorf will always be Ganondorf, AND HE IS MY SECOND MOST USED CHARACTER.

PS: I miss the time where bigger "skill and knowledge requirement" meant more techniques to learn and not more movesets for the characters because "OMG more moves totally make the game harder".
I just want a consistent game where Ganondorf will always be Ganondorf.
That's pretty much his C. You want a smaller a smaller skill and knowledge requirement. You don't want all the extra movesets and knowledge requirements that come with Customs. Which, contrary to your next statement on wanting more techniques to learn instead of more movesets to learn, implies that you want a simpler game. That's self-contradictory.
 

Metallinatus

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I'm both for and against them.

I love them because they give variety and lets you customize your playstyle.

I'm against them because, as Omni said, it will create more metas, and so much to adapt to. Also, people say that Customs make some characters viable that normally aren't, but I feel a character shouldn't need Customs in order to be usable. That's Update Patch buffing's job. Ganon is my main, and I don't want to "have" to use the Dropkick for him to be viable. I want to be able to use normal Ganon, the way he is supposed to play, and have him be good.
Exactly.

Come on guys, Charizard not committing suicide with sideB is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game.
Sheik not having struggle to kill is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game, Little Mac having bad air game to compensate his great ground game is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game, Ganondorf not being slow to compensate his extremely powerfull strikes is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game, Diddy not having his "hoo ha" anymore is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game.
Or maybe, you just have to pick a character, accept all his good and bad attributes and stick with what he really is, vanilla. If he is not good enough for you, great, so pick another one, the game has lots of good vanilla options.
Now, listen, the problem of Ganondorf is not his specials, it is his general speed.... which really is too slow even for someone of his power.
And that is where the buff patches should come to play, not some custom that makes the same slow creature make a running weaker Warlock Punch or makes his recovery slight better....
Melee's Ganondorf is still the best Ganondorf Smash ever had, and guess what were 3 of the 4 specials he had in that game? You're right, they were 3 from the 1-1-1-1 moveset.
 

Puppyfaic

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I'm both for and against them.

I love them because they give variety and lets you customize your playstyle.

I'm against them because, as Omni said, it will create more metas, and so much to adapt to. Also, people say that Customs make some characters viable that normally aren't, but I feel a character shouldn't need Customs in order to be usable. That's Update Patch buffing's job. Ganon is my main, and I don't want to "have" to use the Dropkick for him to be viable. I want to be able to use normal Ganon, the way he is supposed to play, and have him be good.
...Except, there's no way you're "supposed" to play him. If developers intended on one sole way you're "supposed" to play a character, custom moves wouldn't be in this game to begin with.
 

Metallinatus

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...Except, there's no way you're "supposed" to play him. If developers intended on one sole way you're "supposed" to play a character, custom moves wouldn't be in this game to begin with.
If they didn't intend that, customs would be on For Glory....
I think they made pretty clear customs were intended just for fun using it solo or with friends only when they decided to don't let you use them "With Anyone" online.
 
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Solutionme

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I'm not against custom moves but the problem is that the more patches to balance the game that get released, the more unbalanced the custom meta becomes. I mean just imagine a DK who essentially got buffed in areas that he has problems including what his up-b fixes but he also has the up-b. He basically becomes a broken character. Same could be said of crescent slash Marth. Give Marth back the ability to do fair to fair to fair while having crescent slash and he will easily get a kill off one minor mistake. Customs is pretty much good up until the game actually feels balanced enough without having it, or having some on to improve characters more if the balancing does not end up moving along the way we hope. Also some customs should have really been banned from the start, explosive trip and sheik's shield breaking needles? Too strong.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Come on guys, Charizard not committing suicide with sideB is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game.
The fact that Flare Blitz damages Charizard makes it pretty risky to use, since Charizard is making itself more vulnerable to getting KO'd if it's too reckless with that move. Likewise, if opponents begin to catch on to Charizard's Flare Blitz spamming, they can just shield the hit, or even use their Counter moves to make Charizard's attack backfire on it.

While Dragon Rush may be less powerful, the lack of a damage penalty makes it less risky to use, and it's safer to use when you're trying to recover.
 

U-Throw

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If they didn't intend that, customs would be on For Glory....
I think they made pretty clear customs were just for fun using it solo or with friends only when they decided to don't let you use them "With Anyone" online.
I think that's because they wanted to reduce the potential randomness and unpredictability of having Customs usable online, especially since you can't see who your opponent selects. It's a bad reason, and I don't agree with it, but I'm not in a position to change it.

Besides, it should be obvious that the community doesn't care about what Sakurai intended. Sakurai didn't intend for Smash Bros. to become competitive, but here we are. If Sakurai's intentions actually meant something, Smash Bros. would be a very different franchise. The fact is, Customs are perfectly competitively viable and take nothing away from the game. In fact, they add depth to it by giving players multiple Special Move load-outs, increasing strategic depth and giving characters multiple potential uses. There's no reason for them to be banned.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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I think I am the only Zard that likes flare blitz over dragon rush for it's pros over Dragon Rush.

Dragon Rush is godlike though.

I would consider the top player opinion if it was expanded more. Like the why.
 

NerdThomas3

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I rarely use customs. The only ones I use them for are Pac-Man, Shulk and Little Mac. Pac-Man's standard moveset is a little to be desired... Replaced the Up-B and Down-B and it worked well in my favor. Little Mac because he needed it... His Up-B has longer range and his Neutral-B gives a hit stun since he pauses to regain his composure after he strikes. Shulk's Side-B was changed to give longer range that way I have a better chance of reaching the platform when I get knocked back. His Neutral-B has shorter buff time, but they're more powerful than usual. His Down-B has a faster reaction, but weaker attack. It's good considering when I counter with his standard Down-B, people have a chance to shield or dodge before he strikes. His Up-B is more powerful, but has a shorter range. When I strike with it, though, people get knocked back, giving me a window of opportunity to regain my balance or start a combo.

Customs work well in tourneys. You just gotta pinpoint the weaknesses and strengths of them all. The ones I listed helped me tremendously and I sill use them going against friends in a tourney like match-up. I say allow customs for certain characters that aren't really viable in tournaments..
 
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Luco

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How to get the customs you need on your Wii U with ZERO grinding:

1) Take your Wii U to a tournament that uses customs. There is an extremely high chance that they used a 3DS to port over all of the sets.

2) Quickly plug your Wii U into one of the TV, ask the TO to port over the sets on their "Master" 3DS to your Wii U

3) You now have access to all of the major sets for every characters. Repeat once every 6-12 months, however often the "Master List" ends up getting updated

If your area uses customs, you should have no problems getting the custom sets that you need yourself.
This: It's actually very easy to obtain and practice with all the major custom moves in the game as long as you go to one customs on tournament or even have a friend that has done it.
 

Phoenix502

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I know I'm likely nitpicking, but another thought to consider is that it's not so much making a character viable as it is more appealing to someone's preference...

I've been piddling around with Little Mac's customs, and found the description wasn't kidding about being able to follow up with Compact Counter. hell, if the target's right in front of you when you land it, it's GG to the stock if you happen to have KO punch active. the youtube user BKG also said that Jabs one and two can potentially combo into Rising Smash, which is otherwise near impossible to land reliably.

sure, I can play vanilla fighters just fine, but this game still isn't even a year old... but at least customs provides the option of taking a character and developing my own personal flair to them. I main ZSS, Dark Pit, and Robin (ZSS partly because Nairo inspired me), but I could choose to use customs to easily put my own spin on them... y'know?
 
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Host Change

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My region is heavily supportive of custom moves, but I'll play the game either way honestly. I think there are some characters that receive needed buffs from customs to be able to compete, while others don't need them and those are the characters that make playing vs customs on frustrating. I think the best of both worlds would be to ban specific customs that cause problems to gameplay (such as villager up b) but allow the majority of custom moves to be on.
 

Nabbitnator

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I think we should have let the base of the game fully develop more and then over time introduce customs to the game. How come we can't try to experiment with allowing weaker characters have their best moveset as their default? See which set has the best results and go from there.
 

Froggy

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If they didn't intend that, customs would be on For Glory....
I think they made pretty clear customs were intended just for fun using it solo or with friends only when they decided to don't let you use them "With Anyone" online.
So then Final Destination is the only stage that is suitable for competitive play? Since that must have been what the developers intended right?
 

Nabbitnator

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Also about how many matchups are added when each character is allowed 10 customs? Some matchups don't change much while others become practically new. I'm okay with customs but having several matchups for each character is a lot to remember.
 

Wretched

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Omni, go home you're drunk
I don't play Smash4 but I would think that more options and more diversity would keep the game alive for longer, therefore I'd be pro-customs. Sakurai patches the customs that are ridiculous. I don't think the game is going to die soon, either, but I do expect a lifespan similar to brawl, maybe a little longer.
 
D

Deleted member 269706

Guest
I'm sorry but I just can't take Omni seriously. His videos pain me to watch, the points he make are hardly ever worth listening to, and his opinions in general are just all kinds of backwards. Not to mention his horrible acting and childish humor.

He makes a video saying Sm4sh is going to die which he seems generously serious in, then proceeds to keep making videos about this "dying" game? Then he makes a video on why to pick a top tier in a game that was just recently released...Sorry man, this one isn't even worth watching let alone taking seriously.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

Old rivalries live on!
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I can probably mention a couple custom special moves that are usable.
  • Fast Fireball: Easier to spam, despite offering less damage and knockback.
  • Gust Cape: Has the same pros as Mario's Cape, but gains wind effects that can mess up opposing recoveries more easily.
  • Boomerang: Simply deals damage without pulling in opponents.
  • Whirling Leap: Improves Link's horizontal recovery, despite not dealing any damage.
  • Upper Cutter: Although it leaves Kirby helpless, it won't mess up his horizontal recovery.
  • Quick Feet: For those who just can't handle the speed of Quick Attack.
  • Dark Fists: Makes up for Dark Dive's lack of KO power, and offers super armor during start-up.
  • Wizard's Dropkick: Improves Ganondorf's horizontal recovery to an extent.
  • Blade Coaster: Offers more horizontal travel distance for Meta Knight's recovery.
  • Rose Waft: Deals less damage than Wario Waft, but its faster charge-up, and ability to add damaging flowers can be handy.
  • Dragon Rush: Gives up power for the ability to deliver multiple hits without any damage penalties. It's also a better horizontal recovery move in that Charizard can plow through opponents without seeing its attack end prematurely.
  • Fly High: Improves Charizard's vertical recovery, despite not dealing any damage.
  • Luma Warp: Allows Rosalina to place the Luma where she wants it at a faster rate.
  • Shooting Star Bit: The fast traveling Star Bits can be quite useful for putting pressure on those who lack reflectors.
  • Guardian Luma: Designed for opponents who lack any projectile attacks; the Luma can block their direct assaults.
  • Angelic Missile: Improves Palutena's horizontal recovery.
  • Fast Capsule: Can be spammed more easily, despite dealing less damage and knockback.
 
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