Omni: Should We Still Use Custom Moves in Smash 4?

[Dylan_Tnga]

So then Final Destination is the only stage that is suitable for competitive play? Since that must have been what the developers intended right?

Old comic someone made about me and my scrub girlfriend... XD

I wish the text was bigger. Basically if you can't read it the girl says "I love you, its time to consumate our relationship" and then I tell her "Honeybunch you are doing it all wrong, no condoms, missionary only, final destination" and she leavs, falls of the stage and loses her stock.. lmao.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Funny how players that are against Customs use characters that don't benefit from customs at all (Sheik. luigi, Falcon, Ness). Hypocrites much?

sounds like confirmation bias to me. I play puff aand villager and I lean toward anti-customs for logistics' saake

 

[moofpi]

This actually takes quite a long time. Like, 1 hour minimum if the TO has done it a bunch of times and doesn't have to fiddle with menus. You're being incredibly selfish to ask the TO to just take an hour out of their presumably busy schedule just to serve you.

Hey bro, I'm the guy in my community with the master 3DS, the TO is almost never the person to actually do it. I agree with Omni about the accessibility issue, it is an issue. But it takes 20 minutes top to move all the custom sets onto a Wii U and anytime I'm at a weekly or a tournament in another town, I spend my time loading up all the Wii U's I can find so that people can have access to these customs and make the opinions for themselves, play around with them, and maybe even find a special set for a character they always liked but never thought they could play competitively.

Just saying it's not selfish man, it's a community effort for everyone.

 

[shockwave98]

Custom moves everyone is complaining about:

Dk wind up B- cause it skips fundamentals
Villager explosive balloon up B- Causes camping
Villager trip seed- Causes camping
Sonic Hammer Dash?-Causes camping
Pikachu Thunder wave- has an infinite
Pikachu heavy skull bash- Kills too early

What are the other customs people think are unbalanced and Why? Curious to see what people consider Ban worthy.

 

[ChikoLad]

Lets be honest:
Is this video really something to be put in the news?

Results mean nothing.
No matter how many results Yoshi has, he's still top 3.

Results do mean something. They're not the end all be all, but if a character isn't getting results, then either players aren't using their so called potential (meaning the potential hasn't been fully proven), or that potential isn't there to begin with.

I personally would say Rosalina is the best character in the game in terms of potential, but I agree with her being behind Sheik in a tier list, because unfortunately, the only prominent Rosalina player that most people know and that is representing the character is Dabuz, and while he gets some results, he doesn't get enough compared to Sheik players. Plus, his overly defensive playstyle for Rosalina creates some really bad matchups for Rosalina that are fine if she is played with a broader kind of playstyle. So while the character has tons of potential locked away, Dabuz doesn't unlock even close to all of it, and he's the only big name Rosalina player right now that's always going to tournaments, and it causes Rosalina to lack the results of Sheik, especially since Sheik is more easy to get into competitively and her players try harder to innovate and make sure she is the best she can be.

And while Yoshi is great, he is not Top 5 material right now, let alone Top 3. He doesn't have the results to back it up, and he has enough glaring weaknesses and disadvantageous match-ups to keep him out of the top 3 spot.

------------

As far as customs go, I really think it should just be at the discretion of the TO at this point. Two metas can co-exist just fine if there are enough tournaments to support both metas.

 

[ZomBiehn]

Agreed, Customs are fine and dandy and can even make some character s alot better, but they don't belong in a tournament setting

 

[the.tok]

I think we should always aim towards banning as few things as possible. We shouldn't ban things unless they are broken or create too much randomness. AFAIK, customs don't fall into either category. It is just like saying that we should ban DLC characters, it makes no sense.

And to people taking for glory rules as a proof of anything...
I'm glad you didn't use that argument back in Brawl ;-)

 

[Gloman600]

i actually agree with u and im a dk & villager main buck customs but your viewers dont even know how you play the game or do you like talking about smash more than playing? are you good?

 

[T0MMY]

Given how slow the Smash 4 community has been to both adapt and be willing to adapt (begging for nerfs, complaining about rage, not adjusting to the new ledge mechanics fast enough), it seems to me like people just don't want to learn more matchups -- further evidenced by many tournaments not having customs on despite them leading the way to EVO.

I disagree: People love the new characters, the DLC, which create plenty new matchups - these matchups are celebrated and I never see anyone complaining about having to learn more about the game; this site has a huge portion of it dedicated to people who love to conceptualize and analyze matchups.
Blaming the people for game elements that were half-heartedly placed in the game to be RNG farmed in alt modes of the games with no online presence and ignored throughout patches is not a fair evaluation.

 

[Kewkky]

Why are you giving Omni attention he doesn't deserve?

 

[LancerStaff]

If people are against customs at this point, they're either against them because banning them would

A) give them an advantage because their best set is closer to 1111
B) give them an advantage because they would lose bad matchups
C) reduce frustrations because they don't want to learn more matchups and prefer a smaller skill and knowledge requirement
D) give them credence in their social circle

or

E) they're dumb or ignorant

Some combination of the above.

"Customs take too long to unlock" / "Tournaments can't reliably get customs"

Yeah, it's annoying, but not impossible. We have yet to have any major issues and now TWO majors have run with customs with no issues. It takes planning. First tournament in a region with customs can be rough, after that it's typically smooth sailing.

"Customs are janky / customs are too good / some other balance complaint"

Customs haven't changed player OR character results at the top level in any meaningful way. The finals of EVO was two 1111 sets, and those that used customs used only one or two per set, but the names weren't particularly surprising.

"Customs only haven't changed results because top players don't use customs"

Yes they did. More importantly, if you feel that more custom use = better placement, the same players that were predicted to make top 8 still made top 8.

"If customs don't change results, why have them in the first place?"

Because they change the game at other levels of play and allow for the possibility of more unique counterpicks and character choices.

"Customs take no skill / are spammable"

Lots of things are spammable, lots of characters are easier than others. If customs were so brain numbingly easy to use, we'd have seen results variation very quickly.

"(name of top players) are against customs"

So? Mango's a top player in Melee and he thinks Smash 4 sucks. Zero's a nice guy and is skilled and all, but he's ranted about almost everything at this point. He complained about Lucario, for pete's sake. ESAM talked about how broken thunder wave + HSB was for pikachu and the guy got 7th and lost a game to a G&W.

Top players don't know everything.

"It's not fair for other characters to get better moves when all my customs suck"

That's because 1111 is your best. You started at where they want to be.

"It's not fair to force people to get customs"

We force them to do stuff all the time. We force them to spend money on DLC now. We force them to unlock stages, characters. If they want custom sets, we can put them on their wii u via 3DS.

"It's too much for a new player to learn, too high a barrier of entry"

Melee dwarfed Smash 4's numbers on EVO's stream and it requires you to literally sit in your room and practice against a level 1 CPU for hours to even move your character properly. It's doing fine. Having to watch a youtube video on characters you don't already know won't kill anyone.

Honestly, at this point I'm done with smash. The smash community is mostly scrubs, but there's just so many now it's hard to not have your voice drowned out.

We were told that customs would be too hard to run at a regular tournament, then we did it.

We were told it'd be too hard to run at a national tournament, then we did it twice.

We were told that DK's wind up+b was broken, that thunder wave and HSB were broken for Pikachu, that Mii Brawler was broken, that Mario's Gust Cape was broken, that Wario's Fast Bike was broken, that Diddy's explosive barrels were broken, that Marth's crescent slash was broken, that Luigi's ice fireballs were broken, that Rosalina's shooting star bit and warp were broken, and NONE OF THESE MOVES have had more than a marginal effect on tournament placements.

Every doom and gloom announcement around customs has been incorrect, but it doesn't matter. The people that don't want customs don't care that customs are balanced, they don't care if they bring no negative effects. They decided a long time ago that they didn't want customs and no evidence will sway them because they weren't interested in trying them in the first place.

Or, yaknow, balance. Just because Dorf and Ike getsa boost doesn't mean it's more balanced when Puff, Mac, and the DLC characters all

So people basically want to see Ganondorf always struggle with his recovery, while Charizard has to avoid hitting anyone while trying to recover with Flare Blitz?

While not all custom specials are worth using, some of them are actually on the beneficial side. And of course, Palutena has her own unique custom special moves, which can help her recovery options more.

Why should other characters suffer for Palutena and Dorf?

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Hey bro, I'm the guy in my community with the master 3DS, the TO is almost never the person to actually do it. I agree with Omni about the accessibility issue, it is an issue. But it takes 20 minutes top to move all the custom sets onto a Wii U and anytime I'm at a weekly or a tournament in another town, I spend my time loading up all the Wii U's I can find so that people can have access to these customs and make the opinions for themselves, play around with them, and maybe even find a special set for a character they always liked but never thought they could play competitively.

Just saying it's not selfish man, it's a community effort for everyone.

Even if you manage to do every characters set in 1 minute each its stil a50 minute ordeal. 20 minutes is an exaggeration.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

I hate to say that I am still on the fence. I think two metas posses a long term problem for the game, but still. I do enjoy them though, even if I don't use them myself, heh.

 

[Christian Anderson]

Exactly.


Sheik not having struggle to kill is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game, Little Mac having bad air game to compensate his great ground game is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game, Ganondorf not being slow to compensate his extremely powerfull strikes is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game, Diddy not having his "hoo ha" anymore is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game.
Or maybe, you just have to pick a character, accept all his good and bad attributes and stick with what he really is, vanilla. If he is not good enough for you, great, so pick another one, the game has lots of good vanilla options.
Now, listen, the problem of Ganondorf is not his specials, it is his general speed.... which really is too slow even for someone of his power.
And that is where the buff patches should come to play, not some custom that makes the same slow creature make a running weaker Warlock Punch or makes his recovery slight better....
Melee's Ganondorf is still the best Ganondorf Smash ever had, and guess what were 3 of the 4 specials he had in that game? You're right, they were 3 from the 1-1-1-1 moveset.

Patches are not good for the meta at all. It's because of patches that people never found a way to beat pre-patch Diddy. The melee community, while more centric on fox, is actually making an effort to beat less fair strategies like planking. And while melee gannon is the best gannon, he was still garbage compared to captain falcon, who he was a clone of. That's like saying street fighter 4 ryu was the best version of ryu even though evil ryu is in the same game

 

[Christian Anderson]

I disagree: People love the new characters, the DLC, which create plenty new matchups - these matchups are celebrated and I never see anyone complaining about having to learn more about the game; this site has a huge portion of it dedicated to people who love to conceptualize and analyze matchups.
Blaming the people for game elements that were half-heartedly placed in the game to be RNG farmed in alt modes of the games with no online presence and ignored throughout patches is not a fair evaluation.

People don't have a problem with new characters because it's likely an entirely new moveset (normal and special) and a character or franchise they love is being represented in one of their favorite games.

 

[Eureka]

Something that always bothered me about customs is the way people complain about them. People see Donkry Kong: The Last Airbender or Villager on a Ledge and they immediately say "that should be banned". I don't know a single person who saw that and thought "how can that strategy be beat?" It's always straight to ban town.

We told people to adapt to Fox's shine spike. We told people to adapt to 64 Kirby's up tilt and everything about Pikachu. We told people to adapt to Brawl Meta Knight and Ice Climbers. We told people to adapt to the hoo haa. We told people to adapt to all these things that were considered, or were overpowered. But now, when we have the power to ban something, all that adaptation goes out the window.

Many people still didn't know how to fight Kong Cyclone and Villiger planking at EVO, even though they were obviously going to be a threat. Kong Cyclone? Block the windbox or air dodge the main hit. Villiger stall? Jump over the balloons and hit Villger from behind or from below on the regrab, Villiger has to wait a bit before he can get off the ledge to summon more balloons. If people went into the lab and adapted together, much of perceived jank in customs would go away.

Yes there are some logistical problems with customs, but they are vastly overstated. You do not need every single characters customs, only for the characters you play and some of the major characters to practice against (DK, Sonic, Rosa), which does not not take long or require buying something. In fact, you can probably do that while unlocking the all the characters and stages.

I just can't agree with the stance that customs, and all the new and wonderful opportunities they bring to the game, should be banned completely because of a few outliers people don't want to adapt to. As a perfect example, think of Toon Link and Fire Arrow. There's no jank in that and it gives Toon Link so many more options that make him viable. I love Toon Link with fire arrows, he's super fun, but without them he becomes a lacking character. And I don't think taking away options that promote fun and diversity is the right course of action.

 

[Metallinatus]

That's pretty much his C. You want a smaller a smaller skill and knowledge requirement. You don't want all the extra movesets and knowledge requirements that come with Customs. Which, contrary to your next statement on wanting more techniques to learn instead of more movesets to learn, implies that you want a simpler game. That's self-contradictory.

No, give me any new Nintendo character you want, give it to me, put it in the game, and I can learn as much new characters they want to put in. As much they want. No problems. What I don't want is every character to have multiple different metagames.
Think about that, each moveset will generate a different metagame for that character, I don't want that, I want consistence.
Give me more characters and techs to learn instead.
And I never meant to use "what Sakurai intended" as an argument because it is not even a strong argument.... what I did was answer the guy who said that the devs created customs with the intention to be used competitively....
No, they didn't. They also created the Omega forms and let only them be used on For Glory because yes, only they were "intended" by the devs to be used competitively indeed.... For Glory makes that clear.
But the devs' intentions means nothing, I never said otherwise.

 

[Pyr]

Patches are not good for the meta at all. It's because of patches that people never found a way to beat pre-patch Diddy. The melee community, while more centric on fox, is actually making an effort to beat less fair strategies like planking. And while melee gannon is the best gannon, he was still garbage compared to captain falcon, who he was a clone of. That's like saying street fighter 4 ryu was the best version of ryu even though evil ryu is in the same game

So much wrong with this. So, so much wrong. I'll address the main point, though: people not putting in work to lab out things isn't the fault of the patches. It's the fault of the players being lazy. No johns.

 

[Eureka]

No, give me any new Nintendo character you want, give it to me, put it in the game, and I can learn as much new characters they want to put in. As much they want. No problems. What I don't want is every character to have multiple different metagames.
Think about that, each moveset will generate a different metagame for that character, I don't want that, I want consistence.
Give me more characters and techs to learn instead.
And I never meant to use "what Sakurai intended" as an argument because it is not even a strong argument.... what I did was answer the guy who said that the devs created customs with the intention to be used competitively....
No, they didn't. They also created the Omega forms and let only them be used on For Glory because yes, only they were "intended" by the devs to be used competitively indeed.... For Glory makes that clear.
But the devs' intentions means nothing, I never said otherwise.

I don't think customs generates two metas out of the same character. Take custom Palutana and DK for example. Yes, they play completely different from their normal counterparts, but no one would ever use vanilla DK or Palutana if they could pick the custom one. In all the cases where customs could create two character metas they don't because the custom version is superior to the normal one. All of the rest of the customs are simply options, Falcon Strike doesn't completely change Falcon's meta, it just changes one aspect of him.

 

[Christian Anderson]

So much wrong with this. So, so much wrong. I'll address the main point, though: people not putting in work to lab out things isn't the fault of the patches. It's the fault of the players being lazy. No johns.

And WHY are they lazy? Because whenever something polarizing comes up in the meta, they know that if they complain enough nintendo will patch it. We saw this with greninja, little mac, bowser, and especially diddy.

 

[Christian Anderson]

No, give me any new Nintendo character you want, give it to me, put it in the game, and I can learn as much new characters they want to put in. As much they want. No problems. What I don't want is every character to have multiple different metagames.
Think about that, each moveset will generate a different metagame for that character, I don't want that, I want consistence.
Give me more characters and techs to learn instead.
And I never meant to use "what Sakurai intended" as an argument because it is not even a strong argument.... what I did was answer the guy who said that the devs created customs with the intention to be used competitively....
No, they didn't. They also created the Omega forms and let only them be used on For Glory because yes, only they were "intended" by the devs to be used competitively indeed.... For Glory makes that clear.
But the devs' intentions means nothing, I never said otherwise.

How can their be more than one meta for a single character, if every single meta, in every single competitive fighter, always becomes centric on the top tiers, or in the case of customs, the overall best moveset?

 

[Eureka]

And WHY are they lazy? Because whenever something polarizing comes up in the meta, they know that if they complain enough nintendo will patch it. We saw this with greninja, little mac, bowser, and especially diddy.

Because if people want to suffer in the time in between patches instead of learn that's their choice. Most people don't just sit around waiting for patches to fix all their problems, and if they do that's their fault for being lazy. The majority of the things people would need to adapt to have been untouched as well, Ness for example.

 

[Pyr]

And WHY are they lazy? Because whenever something polarizing comes up in the meta, they know that if they complain enough nintendo will patch it. We saw this with greninja, little mac, bowser, and especially diddy.

Still sounds like bad players making johns to me. Besides, anyone who actively does do that isn't making it far, and likely won't contribute much to the metagame as a whole, anyway. Worrying about this is fruitless. And wrong, since any non-Japanese player holds almost no weight. It's why several characters were left untouched last patch.

 

[-LzR-]

People talking like playing against Mario with normal or fast fireballs makes it a completely different MU. Come on guys.

 

[WwwWario]

...Except, there's no way you're "supposed" to play him. If developers intended on one sole way you're "supposed" to play a character, custom moves wouldn't be in this game to begin with.

That's not what I meant. The characters "main" moveset is what I mean. Customs are like equipment - they allow you to customize characters and customize the game. There's a reason Custom Moves aren't available online, because they're not how the character's normal moveset is. Because of this, I don't want to have to rely on Customs in order to have my main viable. I don't want customs to make characters better or worse - I want them to simply make for a different playstyle. That's what I was trying to explain.

 

[Eureka]

That's not what I meant. The characters "main" moveset is what I mean. Customs are like equipment - they allow you to customize characters and customize the game. There's a reason Custom Moves aren't available online, because they're not how the character's normal moveset is. Because of this, I don't want to have to rely on Customs in order to have my main viable. I don't want customs to make characters better or worse - I want them to simply make for a different playstyle. That's what I was trying to explain.

I think that customs are just as much a part of a character as their default moves. I'm completely fine with characters getting better from customs, it promotes diversity. As I see it, just because cause a characters best option isn't available at the start doesn't make in any less valid.

 

[4nonymous]

Customs off? Customs on?
3 stocks? 2 stocks?
GOD I love Melee.

 

[Pazzo.]

Interesting video. Looks like Omni's refined his style of presentation from a click-baity one to a less abrasive stance.

Anyway, I'm currently on the fence. The game does get a lot better with customs on... and then you get some weird Diddy Kong Up-B that can KO at 70%.

Then again, fighting games have always had their fair share of strange moves that favors one opponet in a heavy way. At thois point, I'm really concerned about the logevity of Smash 4. Unless there is something that clearly defines this competitive scene, it'll fall to the wayside. But perhaps that's what customs are here for... to make people come back.

So for now, I say we leave customs on. Untill someone makes a Frankenstein's moster of customs, that is.

 

[Laggalot101]

Customs off? Customs on?
3 stocks? 2 stocks?
GOD I love Melee.

I take it that the Melee community, back when that game was relatively new, didn't have its share of 'THIS amount of stock or THAT amount of stock?' and other such ruleset decisions itself? I wonder, how quickly did people agree back then?

 

[4nonymous]

I take it that the Melee community, back when that game was relatively new, didn't have its share of 'THIS amount of stock or THAT amount of stock?' and other such ruleset decisions itself? I wonder, how quickly did people agree back then?

Talking about how it is now. Established with a stable ruleset and static characters. No stupid updates nerfing or buffing. Smash 4 on the other hand, has alot to work out.

 

[Laggalot101]

Talking about how it is now. Established with a stable ruleset and static characters. No stupid updates nerfing or buffing. Smash 4 on the other hand, has alot to work out.

Fair enough.

 

[DahremRuhar]

Omni: Should We Still Use Custom Moves in Smash 4?

I think I found a better title and a better debate.

 

[Delzethin]

Interesting video. Props to Omni on this one; he took the high road and gave it serious thought instead of going for the clickbait.

I'm on the fence about customs, and I can see the pros and cons to both. I feel like EVO didn't give us enough information on its own to say whether we should allow them or not--there was a lot of complacency that led to a lot people just picking their default specials, which also showed in how 95% of the matches were played on just four of the nine available stages and how almost no one on stream bothered to strike in Game 1 and just defaulted to Smashville.

Whatever ends up happening, I hope it turns out to be for the best. What I'm worried about happening is everyone caving and giving in to the vocal minority. It seems like every time we try to pull a ruleset together, we get people who freak out and refuse to join in unless everyone plays the way they think it should be.

I understand the need for unity...but will it lead to super-conservative rules and stages that do more harm than good to the meta, just to appease a small part of the community who doesn't want to have to change?

 

[JSG]

I love customs and I would love to see them still turned on, albeit possibly ban certain sets/moves, or use the proposed sets of one custom changed in all 10 of the sets (ex. 1111, 2111, 3111, 1211, 1311, etc.). They certainly give the more underused/weaker characters more of a chance to shine, which is generally what a lot of spectators love seeing.

However, I'd be fine with them off too in the meta. I mean, I know that some players would still be capable of making it to top spots without customs, but it'd definitely be a shame to see some characters lose their usage due to no customs. But I'd love to see them turned back on for good if in the future if Nintendo releases some sort of DLC that unlocks all customs for you. Then there would be no reason to ban customs for their difficulty to unlock - just pour in some extra cash for them. And considering Sakurai's growing attention towards the competitive community, there is a glimmer of hope he may let this happen, someday.

But if we were to turn customs off, can we at least let Miis AND Palutena be customized freely? Those characters seemed to have been designed with customs in mind. To strip them of a design aspect severely inhibits their viability and character in general. Besides, they have all of their customs unlocked right off the bat - something many players would like to have if customs were to stay on.

 

[MapleWooD]

I don't have an interest in watching the video (yet), but I do think we should keep in mind that custom moves are, after all, special moves like any other.

 

[---]

If there's no negative impact on the metagame like people say EVO indicated, albeit I think more info is needed, I don't see way customs should be left off.

If it's just a matter of unlocking them I don't see the big deal. As time goes on more and more people will have them unlocked, and even then, you only need one master 3DS/Wii U to spread them through out a tournament.

IDK I think it's just people being lazy at this point. The only ones I'd give slack to are mains.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

If I had to consummate the entire Smash competitive fandom to one transgressive behavior, its the conservative, obdurate approach to standardized competitive play our community at large defaults to whenever a new installment or update gives us the option to evolve the metagame in fresh ways!

Engine paces game speed slower and/or requires less technical precision from Melee/PM? Call it **** for being different and stay away!
Got customs? Ban them because they're too broken and maladaptive!
Got Mii Fighters? Limit them to preconceived "default" specials and weight class because they coincide with number label/too much work evaluating new universal stat sets!

Granted, we've learned a lot from the Melee/Brawl schism and people have approached SSB4's new features much more openly. Yet whenever there's even the slightest logistical or balance problem - no matter how uninformed they may be, people will echo it thousandfold and cast aspersions on any feature that strays off from the vanilla "default characters MUs only" format that consummated the formula for 3 whole games now! It makes me think Sakurai and his team should've just made something like matching 4 of the same custom number impossible to play without!

I don't think customs generates two metas out of the same character. Take custom Palutana and DK for example. Yes, they play completely different from their normal counterparts, but no one would ever use vanilla DK or Palutana if they could pick the custom one. In all the cases where customs could create two character metas they don't because the custom version is superior to the normal one. All of the rest of the customs are simply options, Falcon Strike doesn't completely change Falcon's meta, it just changes one aspect of him.

I've been unanimously agreeing with your approach to anti-customs debunkery. Dunno if this will lead into anything, but wouldn't your DK and Palutena examples end up bottlenecking the purpose of customs as a means to adapt to MUs? If one set remains dominant over any others, then applying those custom sets would make DK/Palutena's performance just as stagnant as being limited to default specials in any of the other games.

 

[weavilian]

did he just say "alee" when pronouncing ally?

 

[Eureka]

I've been unanimously agreeing with your approach to anti-customs debunkery. Dunno if this will lead into anything, but wouldn't your DK and Palutena examples end up bottlenecking the purpose of customs as a means to adapt to MUs? If one set remains dominant over any others, then applying those custom sets would make DK/Palutena's performance just as stagnant as being limited to default specials in any of the other games.

Let me elaborate a bit further. DK as we all know is one of the characters that benefits the most from customs. It's not uncommon to see a fully custom DK. However, the problem would be if Donkey Kong had 2 entirely different yet identically viable ways of play because of customs, which would divide the DK players into two camps and harm the progression of the character as a whole. However, there is only one custom that radically changes DK's play style, and that's Cyclone Kong, which will basically always be used. Now, if the default up-b was just as good as Cyclone Kong, that would be a problem, but as it stands all of the options that make a character radically different are almost straight upgrades. However, that doesn't apply to DK's other customs, which can be freely switched out based on matchups but don't radically change how he plays.

Palutena falls into the same camp. While her customs are amoung the most distinct and character affecting, she will almost always run Super Speed and Lightweight. The only time I can think of when a Palutena wouldn't be using those two moves would be if she wanted to run Reflect to counter projectile spam, and even then it's probably not worth losing Super Speed. However, she can still freely swap out customs on her other slots for matchup purposes.

tl;dr It's okay for customs to radically affect matchups, that's one of the coolest things about them. It would not be okay for them to radically affect a character by splitting their player base and harming the progression of their metagame. Thankfully, all the customs that could do that do not because of their ubiquitous use.

 

[T0MMY]

People don't have a problem with new characters because it's likely an entirely new moveset (normal and special) and a character or franchise they love is being represented in one of their favorite games.

Not sure if you are trying to disagree with me or just posting some off-hand comment.

Honestly, at this point I'm done with smash.

Essentially all this means to me is one less person saying "if you don't agree with me I will call you dumb".*
Smart people don't like "dumb" arguments - if a smart person can write a compelling pro-customs argument chances are they are now going to write a compelling anti-customs argument after seeing that because they don't want to be associated with the "ur dumb" side.

Real arguments we need to examine are:
Reason to switch Custom Fighters ON to begin with - "did not completely ruin the game" is not a good reason (and actually hurts the argument for using them).
Custom moves not being updated in patches, unlike all non-custom specials as well as normals - this completely ruins an argument for "balance".
DLC characters not having customs and future characters will most likely not have them - this completely ruins an argument for character viability or "Fairness".
Logistics, sure the 10 premade characters helps but deletion/tampering/updating means these essentially have to be uploaded every event, TO's will be biased towards NOT having to do this even if they like customs for sake of scheduling.
Jank - yes, it is a real reason, read this as "degenerative gameplay". You didn't see it in Evo finals but many of us saw it in pools.