Omni: Should We Still Use Custom Moves in Smash 4?

[GT | HotCoco]

I see what ya saying but nah

 

[Eureka]

Real arguments we need to examine are:
Reason to switch Custom Fighters ON to begin with - "did not completely ruin the game" is not a good reason (and actually hurts the argument for using them).
Custom moves not being updated in patches, unlike all non-custom specials as well as normals - this completely ruins an argument for "balance".
DLC characters not having customs and future characters will most likely not have them - this completely ruins an argument for character viability or "Fairness".
Logistics, sure the 10 premade characters helps but deletion/tampering/updating means these essentially have to be uploaded every event, TO's will be biased towards NOT having to do this even if they like customs for sake of scheduling.
Jank - yes, it is a real reason, read this as "degenerative gameplay". You didn't see it in Evo finals but many of us saw it in pools.

Reason to switch Custom moves bring more variety, interesting matchups, uniqueness, and fun to the game. Also, it means Gannondorf is somewhat viable, and that makes me smile.
Custom moves not being updated This is actually wrong. Dragon Rush had it's damage decreased and Burning Spin Dash had it's invincibility removed. Although it is unlikely custom moves will be updated much, the fact is they don't really need to. The only moves I can really think of that would make a character overpowered would be maybe Shiek's and Rosalina's, and even then that's conjecture. Considering how much people whine about patches I'd honestly think this is a good thing.
DLC characters not having customs Don't need 'em. With the exception of Mewtwo, all of the DLC characters are perfectly viable with the moves they have. And the many characters are unchanged or only marginally benefit from customs anyway, so this really isn't a valid point.
Logistics As I said before, it's a common misconception players need to unlock every custom. They only need to unlock the ones for who they play and for some of the majorly affected characters to practice against. And 10 slots is plenty enough, there should be no reason for people to be screwing with the custom slots. TO's would not need to upload all of the customs every tourney. EVO and the custom moveset project have already shown how logistical problems can be solved.
Jank Smash Brothers is a janky game. There are a lot of very stupid things happen that could be called janky and customs really don't add that much compared to what's in the game. Much of what people call "jank" is actually them not bothering to learn and adapt. I've already covered how to solve jank in an earlier post, so I won't say it again. But I will say that customs being janky is not the moves fault, it's the players fault.

 

[T0MMY]

I don't know a single person who saw that and thought "how can that strategy be beat?" It's always straight to ban town.

Probably by the time you were contemplating this it was already known how to defeat it - the reason why people still think it should be banned is because it is seen as degenerative gameplay: It's not good for competition it's even not good for viewers and I'm hard up to say what it is good for other than subjective "fun".

OP moves like Fox Shines or even Hoo-haa's may be "2gud" but are not seen as degenerative and many even argue add to competitive value, whereas camping the ledge for 8 minutes with sprouts and balloons adds nothing and is strongly seen as degenerating the value of competition.

Custom moves bring more variety, interesting matchups, uniqueness, and fun to the game. Also, it means Gannondorf is somewhat viable, and that makes me smile.

It went from promises of "balance" and "depth" to "fun" and "interesting". Competitive players can't get on board with this because competition does not require subjective "fun" - most players find competition itself to be fun. So a strong resolution is to have two areas of play: For Fun and... For Glory... oh, Sakurai, is there anything you don't know?

This is actually wrong. Dragon Rush had it's damage decreased and Burning Spin Dash had it's invincibility removed.

Yeah, I should clarify that aside from a couple minor tweaks among ~500 moves they are not balanced. It was stated specifically the designers are not concerned with balancing customs.
If that is not a slap in the face... either to wake you up or to insult you depending on how you want to look at it...

But yeah, a couple tweaks is not enough to expect them to be brought into balance for competition.

DLC characters not having customs Don't need 'em.

You missed the point that we actually do reasonably need them: It is necessary for logical reasoning if anyone utters the words "fair" or "balance"... ! <= note the exclamation mark for emphasis!
If some characters do not have custom moves then it directly and obviously NOT fair and is directly observable by anyone with eyes in their head.

10 slots is plenty enough, there should be no reason for people to be screwing with the custom slots.

Unfortunately the reason why this is a major issue isn't because of an argument that 10 slots is or is not enough... it's that this sets a precedence to the claims that if not using customs is a "ban" on the custom characters then it logically follows that 71 characters are banned for every 1 custom character used. 71:1
All custom characters must be able to be represented or else you are banning all but 10 of the custom fighters.

Smash Brothers is a janky game.

We can say it is or it is not a janky game, which is subject to each and every logically-worthless opinion, but why I stress competitive value - it is relative to what is acceptable and having more jank is less preferable than having less jank. This is why it doesn't matter if people can adapt to it, it's the same reason why Brawl's decline was due to degenerative gameplay from Meta Knight's jank.
When it comes down to risking the community for the promise of "more fun" then that's too high a risk for the reward.

 

[Fig Newton]

Even Alphrarad knows that Omni is just click bait/biased on things.

 

[Eureka]

Probably by the time you were contemplating this it was already known how to defeat it - the reason why people still think it should be banned is because it is seen as degenerative gameplay: It's not good for competition it's even not good for viewers and I'm hard up to say what it is good for other than subjective "fun".

OP moves like Fox Shines or even Hoo-haa's may be "2gud" but are not seen as degenerative and many even argue add to competitive value, whereas camping the ledge for 8 minutes with sprouts and balloons adds nothing and is strongly seen as degenerating the value of competition.

Can you name a specific example of how customs promote "degenerative gameplay" because a lot of what I see called that is people not adapting. Villiger planking is beaten by simply understanding when Villiger can summon balloons and smacking him on the regrab, which is a pristine example of people not bothering to learn customs and instead asking for them to be banned. And if you're trying to claim that the hoo haa and Brawl Meta Knight added to competitive value then I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you. I can guarantee if people had the option to ban those things like they do customs they would try. Heck, they did try with Meta Knight.

It went from promises of "balance" and "depth" to "fun" and "interesting". Competitive players can't get on board with this because competition does not require subjective "fun" - most players find competition itself to be fun. So a strong resolution is to have two areas of play: For Fun and... For Glory... oh, Sakurai, is there anything you don't know?

First and foremost, I never once put fun as the primary reason for customs. I had already thought the major reasons, the wealth of new character possibilities and match up dynamics, didn't require elaboration. Also, it's important for a game to be fun. Yes balance and competition comes first, but at the end of the day we all do what we do because we have fun doing it.

Yeah, I should clarify that aside from a couple minor tweaks among ~500 moves they are not balanced. It was stated specifically the designers are not concerned with balancing customs.
If that is not a slap in the face... either to wake you up or to insult you depending on how you want to look at it...

But yeah, a couple tweaks is not enough to expect them to be brought into balance for competition.

I said it once and I'll say it again. Customs do not need to be patched. And even though they may have not been designed for competitive play, they were still designed to be balanced so not to ruin fun play. That could be a problem if ways to use moves that were objectively overpowered were found, but that's purely conjecture and speculation, and thus not a valid point.

You missed the point that we actually do reasonably need them: It is necessary for logical reasoning if anyone utters the words "fair" or "balance"... ! <= note the exclamation mark for emphasis!
If some characters do not have custom moves then it directly and obviously NOT fair and is directly observable by anyone with eyes in their head.

Peach doesn't get much out of customs. G&W doesn't get much out of customs. Zelda doesn't get much out of customs. Ike doesn't get much out of customs. Not all characters are going to get the same benefits from custom moves. There are already plenty of characters in the game that get nothing or close to nothing from custom moves. Not every character is directly and obviously balanced, whether that be in customs or any other aspect. So no, DLC characters not getting custom moves is not a problem because plenty of characters have useless customs as well.

Unfortunately the reason why this is a major issue isn't because of an argument that 10 slots is or is not enough... it's that this sets a precedence to the claims that if not using customs is a "ban" on the custom characters then it logically follows that 71 characters are banned for every 1 custom character used. 71:1
All custom characters must be able to be represented or else you are banning all but 10 of the custom fighters.

I dare you to find a move set that we actually care about losing that get's lost Becuase of only having 10 slots. Unless someone wants to bring out that 2/2/2/2 Kirby hype, 10 slots are enough. So in a way yes we are banning certain combinations of custom moves, but they're all crappy combinations nobody cares to use in the first place.

We can say it is or it is not a janky game, which is subject to each and every logically-worthless opinion, but why I stress competitive value - it is relative to what is acceptable and having more jank is less preferable than having less jank. This is why it doesn't matter if people can adapt to it, it's the same reason why Brawl's decline was due to degenerative gameplay from Meta Knight's jank.

Brawl didn't decline because Meta Knight was janky, it declined because he was ludicrously overpowered, Ice Climbers killed you in one grab, there were barely any combos, and you could just randomly lose because Sakurai made you trip. Brawl did not decline from jank.

Again, most of the "jank" is people not knowing what to do, which would not happen if customs were more widely accepted. Yes there is a super rare chance that DK could windbox somebody under the stage. But there's also the chance that someone could stage spike with a get up attack, or G&W could randomly get a 9, or Roy could kill someone at 0% with Blazer, or some wacky thing with DeDeDe's Gordos could happen, or Captain Falcon could slide of the ledge while trying to up b out of shield and die (that actually happened to me). What I'm saying is, yes customs add some jank, but it's an insignificant amount and there'd be just as much jank with vanilla.

When it comes down to risking the community for the promise of "more fun" then that's too high a risk for the reward.

We're not doing customs just for more fun. We're doing it for all the DKs, all the Palutenas, all the Ganondorfs, all the Toon Links, all the Charizards, all the Kirbys, all the Shulks, all the Miis, and most importantly, all the people who love playing and watching new and exciting things with characters. THAT'S why we want customs.

 

[Blazin']

I usually don't agree with Omni, but this video definitely took everything that I thought about customs and put them into words.

 

[T0MMY]

Can you name a specific example of how customs promote "degenerative gameplay" because a lot of what I see called that is people not adapting.

Any example that was given and any that I could give you now would just be reclassified as "not adapting". Good try, but I'll press my point again:
My point was that no matter how you or I want to look at it ultimately doesn't matter because these "not adapting" gameplay issues are disenfranchising players and (quite obviously) dividing the community - is it worth having more "fun" in doing so?
Obviously not.
But my opinion is that these people who push for the "not adapting" gameplay will not staying with the community for very long; once it is not "fun" to them, they leave.
I've seen it many times over the years.

First and foremost, I never once put fun as the primary reason for customs.

Uh... This?
Ok then.
Back to competitive discussion...

Yes balance and competition comes first, but at the end of the day we all do what we do because we have fun doing it.

I guess I'll interpret that as acquiescence ('competition first'), and I will take this moment to stress the schism of a Competitive Arena and a Casual Scene.

At the end of the day "we" can have fun in a casual scene, but that would be independent from structuring formalities for a competitive ruleset.

I said it once and I'll say it again. Customs do not need to be patched. And even though they may have not been designed for competitive play, they were still designed to be balanced so not to ruin fun play.

Let me get this simple:

Customs don't need balanced/patched because they are for "fun play".
Customs are fine the way the are (i.e. for fun).​

And my interjections:

For fun != competition
I am discussing competitive rules, not casual (for fun) rules.​

So at this time I will again stress the Competitive/Casual schism and let be with your game settings in a casual scene. Enjoy.

The rest of this post is regarding competitive values, not casual whimsy, please keep that in mind should you respond.

Peach doesn't get much out of customs.

There's a big difference between "doesn't get much" and "doesn't have any option whatsoever and is obviously causing an imbalance".
I'll let you reflect on that.

I dare you to find a move set that we actually care about losing that get's lost Becuase of only having 10 slots.

I believe I already found 71 for each character.
That's simple math.
(not sure who this "we" is)

Unless someone wants to bring out that 2/2/2/2 Kirby hype, 10 slots are enough.

What a strange coincidence, my brother wants to play a Kirby that isn't allowed in the standard 10 custom sets.
Same goes myself, I couldn't use the character I wanted to at Evo.
This is the kind of bizarre argument I can't accept because somehow I am losing what makes customs great - being able to... you know, customize the characters!
Instead we are relegated into limitations.
Lame.

So in a way yes we are banning certain combinations of custom moves, but they're all crappy combinations nobody cares to use in the first place.

Also might as well ban Mii Swordfighter (for fun might as well ban Kirby from Melee. Because, you know, "crappy" is a standard now... /s

Brawl didn't decline because Meta Knight was janky, it declined because he was ludicrously overpowered

Mach Toranado says hi.
Miss my point much?

Again, most of the "jank" is people not knowing what to do

Disagree.
And again you miss the point. Why add more jank?
Also, if it is just the issue of people 'not adapting', then why add customs... now?
Once these can be reasonably answered then the competitive community would accept them.

I'm saying is, yes customs add some jank, but it's an insignificant amount and there'd be just as much jank with vanilla.

Why add more jank when you can not add more?

Also, that vanilla "jank" got patched.
(but wasn't it just 'people not adapting?')

We're not doing customs just for more fun. We're doing it for all the DKs, all the Palutenas, all the Ganondorfs, all the Toon Links, all the Charizards, all the Kirbys, all the Shulks, all the Miis, and most importantly, all the people who love playing and watching new and exciting things with characters. THAT'S why we want customs.

Are you seriously trying to make this into a white knight scenario?
And you are rocking that "we" plural too hard, like do you think you are speaking on behalf of a group of people?
Nah, I don't have to pretend here:You are one person posting publicly to me. So I ask you person-to-person: Do you really think it's your job to balance this game?
Because I don't.

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

I love how people get so butt hurt over omni's opinions lmao he's a very well rounded thinker

 

[Lil Puddin]

Is Omni, like, the Oprah of Super Smash Bros.'s fandom?

 

[Eureka]

Any example that was given and any that I could give you now would just be reclassified as "not adapting". Good try, but I'll press my point again:
My point was that no matter how you or I want to look at it ultimately doesn't matter because these "not adapting" gameplay issues are disenfranchising players and (quite obviously) dividing the community - is it worth having more "fun" in doing so?
Obviously not.
But my opinion is that these people who push for the "not adapting" gameplay will not staying with the community for very long; once it is not "fun" to them, they leave.
I've seen it many times over the years.


Uh... This?
Ok then.
Back to competitive discussion...


I guess I'll interpret that as acquiescence ('competition first'), and I will take this moment to stress the schism of a Competitive Arena and a Casual Scene.

At the end of the day "we" can have fun in a casual scene, but that would be independent from structuring formalities for a competitive ruleset.


Let me get this simple:

Customs don't need balanced/patched because they are for "fun play".
Customs are fine the way the are (i.e. for fun).​

And my interjections:

For fun != competition
I am discussing competitive rules, not casual (for fun) rules.​

So at this time I will again stress the Competitive/Casual schism and let be with your game settings in a casual scene. Enjoy.

The rest of this post is regarding competitive values, not casual whimsy, please keep that in mind should you respond.


There's a big difference between "doesn't get much" and "doesn't have any option whatsoever and is obviously causing an imbalance".
I'll let you reflect on that.


I believe I already found 71 for each character.
That's simple math.
(not sure who this "we" is)


What a strange coincidence, my brother wants to play a Kirby that isn't allowed in the standard 10 custom sets.
Same goes myself, I couldn't use the character I wanted to at Evo.
This is the kind of bizarre argument I can't accept because somehow I am losing what makes customs great - being able to... you know, customize the characters!
Instead we are relegated into limitations.
Lame.


Also might as well ban Mii Swordfighter (for fun might as well ban Kirby from Melee. Because, you know, "crappy" is a standard now... /s


Mach Toranado says hi.
Miss my point much?


Disagree.
And again you miss the point. Why add more jank?
Also, if it is just the issue of people 'not adapting', then why add customs... now?
Once these can be reasonably answered then the competitive community would accept them.


Why add more jank when you can not add more?

Also, that vanilla "jank" got patched.
(but wasn't it just 'people not adapting?')


Are you seriously trying to make this into a white knight scenario?
And you are rocking that "we" plural too hard, like do you think you are speaking on behalf of a group of people?
Nah, I don't have to pretend here:You are one person posting publicly to me. So I ask you person-to-person: Do you really think it's your job to balance this game?
Because I don't.

Okay, I'm not going to have a conversation with you if you're going pick and choose from what I say and be rude about this. Last time I'm going to say this I do not want customs in competative because they are fun I want them to be used becuase they provide new opportunities for characters and promote diversity, being fun is a nice side effect.

Jank, by definition, can not be adapted to. It is stupid things that cause someone to win who really shouldn't have. The problem I have with people describing customs as a whole as jank is that the two most cited examples, custom DK and custom Villager, really thrive because people have not taken the time to learn and counter those strategies. Sure, people may be complaining now about customs and feel disenfranchised, but if customs were to be wholly adapted the knowledge of how to fight strategies currently considered jank would become easily available. That's why I asked for examples outside of those two, Becuase that's mostly what people bring up.

When I said customs do not need to be patched I meant they do not need to be patched Becuase they are not broken. I did not say that because they are for casual play they don't need to be patched. None of the customs make a character overpowered, and as such do not need to be dealt with in a patch.

There are characters who might as not care if custom moves existed and have standard moves far superior to all of their customs. So if we're going to talk about how DLC characters not having customs makes customs not possible, then you also need to include all of those characters too. I do not believe the lack of custom moves creates anymore of an imbalance then what is inherent in the game, in fact it makes many of the characters more viable. Even if the DLC characters had customs there's a strong chance they'd stick with their defaults anyway.

A character with a custom move does not equal a completely different character. Banning 2/2/2/2 Kirby is not the same as banning Mii swordfighter. Going back to the 2/2/2/2 Kirby example, why? Not only is upper cutter the far superior option, but grounded stone has almost no utility. You don't lose customization, you just have 10 custom modes to choose from. The only real reason you would want to have full custom choice or use one of the options not in the 10 slots would be for fun, which you've adamantly stated is pointless in a competitive discussion. And when I say "we" I mean we as a community who decided that these 10 slots offer the complete range of competitively viable options for a character.

Okay yeah, Mach Tornado was super janky. But I still believe it was factors beyond jank that doomed Brawl. But that's irrelevant.

People see customs do things and they label them jank because they don't have to deal with them on a regular basis. The prime example, Villiger planking, would not become a problem if customs were widely accepted. The reason is simple, people would be forced to find a way to beat the strategy, and once they put effort into beating it someone would find a strat and then everyone would know how to beat the strategy. The information is probably already out there, it's just that people have no reason to learn it because customs are not the standered.

While customs can be jank it is a very rare occurrence, and not at all outside of the currently accepted limits. Again, the actual jank, not the things people say are jank that aren't, is very rare, and the trade off is worth it for all the new possibilities customs add. Like, I've seen someone label Villiger state spiking someone with his up-b jank, even though that's not an occurrence anywhere close to exclusive to customs. Customs are not as jank as people say. If you want to bring up an example to the contrary please do.

When I said "we" I was replying to one specific thing you said, when you claimed people where risking the community to add customs for more fun. "I" am not doing that, I am not single handily risking the community, nor am I the only person asking for customs. Really, what I say doesn't matter, it's what we agree to, as a community, that matters. So yes, I said we to refer to all the pro-customs people, if you have a problem with that then I'm sorry. But I have no idea what you are talking about when you ask if it's my job to balance the game. We're not even talking about that. What I do think is in all of our best interests is what's best for the game.

 

[S_B]

Also, several characters were unlockables in the Wii U version.

Does that mean they're part of a separate meta as well?

Were the unlockable characters in Brawl part of a separate meta because they're not unlocked when you buy the game?

I think we're well past the point where we have to worry about unlocking stuff in a tournament fighting game because we've always had to do that, and the Wii U version has very few characters locked at the start, even...

Is Omni, like, the Oprah of Super Smash Bros.'s fandom?

Not until he buys all of his stream watchers a free DLC character, no.

"You get a Lucas! YOU get a Lucas! EVERYONE GETS A LUCAS!!!!!"

 

[S_B]

double post

 

[Xermo]

If people are against customs at this point, they're either against them because banning them would

A) give them an advantage because their best set is closer to 1111
B) give them an advantage because they would lose bad matchups
C) reduce frustrations because they don't want to learn more matchups and prefer a smaller skill and knowledge requirement
D) give them credence in their social circle

or

E) they're dumb or ignorant

Nice projection and 10/10 bait.

Honestly, at this point I'm done with smash. The smash community is mostly scrubs, but there's just so many now it's hard to not have your voice drowned out.

*Smash 4 community
But I agree

We were told that customs would be too hard to run at a regular tournament, then we did it.

We were told it'd be too hard to run at a national tournament, then we did it twice.

Vocal minority. Implying it isn't the TO's decision to run customs or not.

We were told that DK's wind up+b was broken, that thunder wave and HSB were broken for Pikachu, that Mii Brawler was broken, that Mario's Gust Cape was broken, that Wario's Fast Bike was broken, that Diddy's explosive barrels were broken, that Marth's crescent slash was broken, that Luigi's ice fireballs were broken, that Rosalina's shooting star bit and warp were broken,

"we" as in going on smashboards and having a bunch of people who're bad at the game tell you X move is dumb because of them being bad and jank. You already know scrubs call out "broken" for anything that becomes polarizing or that can take a stock at below 60.

and NONE OF THESE MOVES have had more than a marginal effect on tournament placements.

Except they do? Maybe not ice ball or fast bike particularly, but customs sure do affect placings, especially in locals. Don't see where you're getting this evidence. Just because muh zero and muh nairo still place top doesn't mean the rest of the placings aren't shifted around by custom sets.
You people act like this game doesn't already favor those who played brawl and were good at it, like customs is some magic carpet ride into the winner's circle because of the outcires that one move or set is godlike.

 

[BadDeku]

My opinion on this whole customs/no customs thing has been going back and forth for a while. When I was first introduced to the idea I thought "Ganondorf has an approach option?" "Bowser has a movement option/extra combo tool?" "Customs are AWESOME." And so much of me wants customs to be a thing, but in the end the tools given to characters like bowser and Ganondorf don't matter in the face of the tools given to rosalina sheik and pikachu. So balance isn't really an argument anymore and I honestly don't know why people keep acting like it is. I'm not saying customs are UN-balanced, because even though they are, the game isn't balanced in the first place. I'm just saying customs don't make it any more balanced. And character diversity is a strange thing to argue when the only character I saw in evo's top 32 that definitely wouldn't have gotten there without customs was wii fit. Villager is already a pretty viable and well represented character. Abadango's pacman and Regi's G&W didn't use any custom moves (except didn't abadongo use a custom fire hydrant one match?). Then we have Abadango's wario who was helped out by wario's custom side b, but to an extent that wario wouldn't have been able to win otherwise?

Though Abadango's wario along with Nairo's ZSS do illustrate customs in somewhat of a positive light: it added a small extra dynamic to a character's challenging matchup. ZSS has a custom that gives her a small answer to sheiks piercing needles and I can't argue here, that's kind of cool so plus one point to customs here.

But my biggest problem with customs isn't that they don't do what people argue they will, it's that they amount to a level of optimized game play with so many characters that's just a whole new level of uninspiring. In my opinion, DK is a pretty damn interesting if underpowered character--but with customs on his entire neutral becomes platform canceling spin to win sillyness. I'm not saying this is over powered, it isn't. It honestly hasn't been shown to make dk all that much more viable at all. It just makes him a whole lot more uninspiring. You then have palutena who has been pulling in some more results with her customs, but at the cost of turning her into some horrifying combo of sonic and luigi? Is anyone actually entertained by customs palutena? And then we have pikachu and captain falcon who get easy zero to death combos off of customs that, even though esam has shown they have yet to be mastered, could essentially lead to the same kind of BS we saw with brawl ice climbers.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is I haven't seen any arguments for customs that stand up and I just can't see many ways customs improve the meta. I'd love for someone to change my mind though.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Omni is so wrong it's funny. Can't really take the man seriously with the silly faces he makes. Customs are a part of the smash 4 metagame. To say otherwise is just stupid. No offense to anyone. Don't like customs? Go play SSBM.

 

[Eureka]

My opinion on this whole customs/no customs thing has been going back and forth for a while. When I was first introduced to the idea I thought "Ganondorf has an approach option?" "Bowser has a movement option/extra combo tool?" "Customs are AWESOME." And so much of me wants customs to be a thing, but in the end the tools given to characters like bowser and Ganondorf don't matter in the face of the tools given to rosalina sheik and pikachu. So balance isn't really an argument anymore and I honestly don't know why people keep acting like it is. I'm not saying customs are UN-balanced, because even though they are, the game isn't balanced in the first place. I'm just saying customs don't make it any more balanced. And character diversity is a strange thing to argue when the only character I saw in evo's top 32 that definitely wouldn't have gotten there without customs was wii fit. Villager is already a pretty viable and well represented character. Abadango's pacman and Regi's G&W didn't use any custom moves (except didn't abadongo use a custom fire hydrant one match?). Then we have Abadango's wario who was helped out by wario's custom side b, but to an extent that wario wouldn't have been able to win otherwise?

Though Abadango's wario along with Nairo's ZSS do illustrate customs in somewhat of a positive light: it added a small extra dynamic to a character's challenging matchup. ZSS has a custom that gives her a small answer to sheiks piercing needles and I can't argue here, that's kind of cool so plus one point to customs here.

But my biggest problem with customs isn't that they don't do what people argue they will, it's that they amount to a level of optimized game play with so many characters that's just a whole new level of uninspiring. In my opinion, DK is a pretty damn interesting if underpowered character--but with customs on his entire neutral becomes platform canceling spin to win sillyness. I'm not saying this is over powered, it isn't. It honestly hasn't been shown to make dk all that much more viable at all. It just makes him a whole lot more uninspiring. You then have palutena who has been pulling in some more results with her customs, but at the cost of turning her into some horrifying combo of sonic and luigi? Is anyone actually entertained by customs palutena? And then we have pikachu and captain falcon who get easy zero to death combos off of customs that, even though esam has shown they have yet to be mastered, could essentially lead to the same kind of BS we saw with brawl ice climbers.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is I haven't seen any arguments for customs that stand up and I just can't see many ways customs improve the meta. I'd love for someone to change my mind though.

Thing is, a lot of the reason we didn't see many customs in top 32 is that the top players simply didn't want to use them. However, if we take a look at the top 128 in a tournament as big as EVO, it becomes obvious that customs had a huge impact on what characters were and we're not viable. I mean a Charizard won one of his pools, a Charizard. Kong Cyclone does make DK a lot more viable, ask any of the DK mains. And I love watching custom Palutena, it's actually really cool to see so one properly manage Super Speed and Lightweight to pull of some pretty sick combos. And all of the custom infinites are either ludicrously difficult or extremely impractical to pull of in a match. Also, if a few customs become a problem, we can just ban those specific customs. There's no reason for Ganondorf to lose Wizards Dropkick because people might have a problem with Pikachu's customs.

 

[T0MMY]

Okay, I'm not going to have a conversation with you if you're going pick and choose from what I say and be rude about this.

Sir, with all due respect, my post was a formal argument addressing you with the assumption we would critically and professionally analyze the given circumstances surrounding the current competitive field of Smash Bros.
If you insist on pulling a threat of desertion on this discussion then I would suggest you save us both the embarrassment of reducing the conversation to a juvenile level and act on your terms and leave the conversation so those of us who wish to carry on a civil argument can do so proper.
With that said I will still extend the courteous level which I acted on and invest my thoughts on the topic and/or touch on the points repeating to a virtuous extent.

Jank, by definition, can not be adapted to.

Where did you find this definition?
That's not the definition I used when posted and our conversation stemmed from and is working off my initial post, so you'll have to convince me of your definition in order for me to proceed to your conclusion.

I did not say that because they are for casual play they don't need to be patched.

Memory problems are assisted by clicking the spoiler button:

Spoiler

Customs do not need to be patched. And even though they may have not been designed for competitive play, they were still designed to be balanced so not to ruin fun play.

Balanced for "fun play" (non-competitive). A "balanced" game doesn't need to be patched.
However, as I stated before, I am arguing in the Competitive Realm - "fun play" lies outside this realm and is irrelevant to the discussion (though fun does have its merits in games, it's still outside the realm of discussion).
Feel free to take back what was said if you want and move forward with the competitive discussion where I'm headed.

*

None of the customs make a character overpowered, and as such do not need to be dealt with in a patch.

Subjective opinion about what is "overpowered" is not grounds of discussion. The point was that these moves are NOT supported by game developers to adjust the oversights, ostensibly giving credence to the argument that they are not on the same acceptable level of standard for competition.

There are characters who might as not care if custom moves existed and have standard moves far superior to all of their customs.

I'm sorry, "characters" cannot "care", as caring is a human trait.
If you are talking in some kind of anthropomorphic poetry then I'll remind you that it's not your job to balance the game (as far as I know Nintendo never hired you to do this).
How would I know you are any good at that job anyhow? For all I know you're the worst developer ever.

A character with a custom move does not equal a completely different character.

I can accept that statement. However, I am not arguing for it, I was simply pointing out the logic of the "ban" argument and how the necessity of 10 character slots for logistics essentially ruins the argument since it effectively bans 71 characters (hence why I do not argue for it nor the Evo rules).

Banning 2/2/2/2 Kirby is not the same as banning Mii swordfighter.

Any ban needs reason, so yes, it is the same in rulescrafting - you still need reason for the ban either way.

And when I say "we" I mean we as a community who decided that these 10 slots offer the complete range of competitively viable options for a character.

I am part of the Smash Community, I didn't decide Kirby's 10 slots. If I wanted to use 2/2/2/2 Kirby I cannot, as it was banned from use.
These are obvious facts.
You would have to logically admit I am then limited in my options how to use a customization that would otherwise be available for me.
Limiting my options to customize characters is the antithesis of custom fighters and the spirit of the game.

Okay yeah, Mach Tornado was super janky.

I accept that you admit the jank in Brawl was real.
Having traveled the country to compete in high level Brawl tournaments I think I'll trust my own experience to yours regarding the jank in Brawl and how degenerative gameplay was a contributing factor to the competition's decline.

The reason is simple, people would be forced to find a way to beat the strategy

And I believe you are missing the point of "jank" I posted - I am not arguing that it is unbeatable or not, I said it is seen as degenerative gameplay.
I was the one who posted the issue of jank and as such I defined the issue at hand. So I request you stop trying to redefine my own words and stay on topic: "jank" is an issue to many, it doesn't matter if it can be defeated because when you defeat it the conclusion is it was stupid when you win and lose.

Ultimately I do not argue if something is or is not janky, I simply recognize the obvious fact that there is an issue with it. And because of this reality a resolution is needed or else the competition is going to suffer. Simple as that.

Last time I'm going to say this I do not want customs in competative because they are fun I want them to be used becuase they provide new opportunities for characters and promote diversity, being fun is a nice side effect.

I think this argument of "new opportunities" and "diversity" is equivalent to the old argument of "depth" which was the cornerstone for demanding the Custom Fighters metagame replacing the tried-and-true competitive standard, hence Evo happened.

Evo was to be the proving ground, we were promised some kind of novelty for "diversity" and "depth" but what we got was non-custom Diddy vs non-custom Sheik! Looking beyond finals we saw nearly the entire top 8 virtually custom-less which also reflected the macrocosm of the competition at large.

So perhaps you may still have an (unrealistic?) optimism about Evo and the future of Customs but I have seen this kind of optimism from nearly armchair warrior who never attends tournaments demanding the game be played their way or not at all - like, can't we have room for competitive as well as a more casual experience without trying to destroy the other side? This is why I promote both Custom Fighters to be offered alongside or in rotation to the standard basic events.

Is this a good resolution to you?

So yes, I said we to refer to all the pro-customs people, if you have a problem with that then I'm sorry. What I do think is in all of our best interests is what's best for the game.

Because you said you are speaking on behalf of the pro-custom side then you go and say it is in "all our best interests". This is the kind of mindset that I believe creates a divide in the community: thinking that one way of playing must displace other ways (usually for the good of all, the "white knight syndrome").

Competitive players just played the game, they did not seek out to bar people from using Customs (nor other settings) and have historically been open to a change in game settings (see Stock vs Time and Team Attack ON).
Whereas the pro-custom side have already displaced the standard way of playing by forcing a customs-only attitude that leaves no room for standard play. Compare this with the general attitude from standard competition which is open for Customs to be used both as a side event and as a main event.

It's very dangerous to a burgeoning community to have one speak as "we" and dictate how everyone plays in this regard, which is why I stress the point how you use it so disparagingly every opportunity I see it arise.
I don't know about you, but I have not only had a long history with this community, but I also have a vested interests in the future of this community and I do not feel like I am entitled to speak for anyone other than myself and feel the community can benefit from a free market structure.
I believe in free market, that a ruleset can be offered by any individual or a group of people and allow the community to decide what they want to use instead of being limited to how they can play the game by a dictator or oligarchy. Very simple and works for both sides of the customs argument.

 

[ARBITER WARPIG]

Oh boy, more clickbait! My favorite!

Implying that it is clickbait.

 

[Eureka]

Sir, with all due respect, my post was a formal argument addressing you with the assumption we would critically and professionally analyze the given circumstances surrounding the current competitive field of Smash Bros.

So at this time I will again stress the Competitive/Casual schism and let be with your game settings in a casual scene. Enjoy.

The rest of this post is regarding competitive values, not casual whimsy, please keep that in mind should you respond.

Also, that vanilla "jank" got patched.
(but wasn't it just 'people not adapting?')

Are you seriously trying to make this into a white knight scenario?
And you are rocking that "we" plural too hard, like do you think you are speaking on behalf of a group of people?
Nah, I don't have to pretend here:You are one person posting publicly to me. So I ask you person-to-person: Do you really think it's your job to balance this game?
Because I don't.

These comments are what I was referring to. If they served a purpose then that's fine, but frankly they seemed to be there to be rude and insult me based on a few things I said. That being said though, I think there have been a few miscommunications.

Where did you find this definition?
That's not the definition I used when posted and our conversation stemmed from and is working off my initial post, so you'll have to convince me of your definition in order for me to proceed to your conclusion.

Degenerative gameplay is still degenerative gameplay even if it's adapted to. It didn't matter how good you were at fighting Meta Knight or knew how janky he could be, the fact of the matter was that he could still just press neutral b and do janky things. No level of adaptation can make something less janky.

Balanced for "fun play" (non-competitive). A "balanced" game doesn't need to be patched.
However, as I stated before, I am arguing in the Competitive Realm - "fun play" lies outside this realm and is irrelevant to the discussion (though fun does have its merits in games, it's still outside the realm of discussion).
Feel free to take back what was said if you want and move forward with the competitive discussion where I'm headed.

I think this is a miscommunication, if necessary, read what I said earlier as such.
"Customs do not need to be patched. And even though they may have not been designed for competitive play, they were still designed to be balanced so not to ruin fun play."
I added in that last part because it's a common misconception that customs were not meant to be balanced at at, which is not true. So yes, I am arguing in the competitive realm.

Subjective opinion about what is "overpowered" is not grounds of discussion. The point was that these moves are NOT supported by game developers to adjust the oversights, ostensibly giving credence to the argument that they are not on the same acceptable level of standard for competition.

Conjecture and speculation is also not grounds of discussion. Saying that oversights will not be adjusted implies there are oversights in customs that currently need to be adjusted, which is another topic of discussion. Otherwise we're talking about possibilities that may not even come to pass. Furthermore, if it is truly necessary, we can ban specific custom moves that are problematic if oversights are found.

I'm sorry, "characters" cannot "care", as caring is a human trait.
If you are talking in some kind of anthropomorphic poetry then I'll remind you that it's not your job to balance the game (as far as I know Nintendo never hired you to do this).
How would I know you are any good at that job anyhow? For all I know you're the worst developer ever.

Semantics, the point is that there are characters who do not benefit at all from custom moves. Arguing that DLC characters not getting customs is a problem is identical to arguing that characters not getting the same quality customs is a problem. And I do not believe that is a valid argument considering that not all characters being perfectly balanced is an inherent part of fighting games.

You would have to logically admit I am then limited in my options how to use a customization that would otherwise be available for me.
Limiting my options to customize characters is the antithesis of custom fighters and the spirit of the game.

Let's say that, hypothetically, every single custom variation of Kirby was a different character, and we were limited to 10 of them. The thing with customs is that many of them are useless or vastly outclassed on a competitive level. So while we may be banning 71 versions of Kirby, we are banning versions of Kirby that have a 0% usage rate. This is why I asked if you could provide a moveset that is currently not allowed that holds competitive use, in which case I will concede the point that the way customs are handled should be changed. Otherwise, you're basically asking TO's to sacrifice time and convenience for the "spirit of the game" which sounds a lot like "fun" to me.

And I believe you are missing the point of "jank" I posted - I am not arguing that it is unbeatable or not, I said it is seen as degenerative gameplay.
I was the one who posted the issue of jank and as such I defined the issue at hand. So I request you stop trying to redefine my own words and stay on topic: "jank" is an issue to many, it doesn't matter if it can be defeated because when you defeat it the conclusion is it was stupid when you win and lose.

Ultimately I do not argue if something is or is not janky, I simply recognize the obvious fact that there is an issue with it. And because of this reality a resolution is needed or else the competition is going to suffer. Simple as that.

What I am trying to say is that people's perception as customs as jank would go away if customs were more widely accepted and the knowledge of how to beat things like Villager planking would become more available. If a Villager could never win with planking he would never try that strategy, thus that element of jank would be removed. This is why I asked for other examples of jank.

Upon thinking about it more though, I do concede that there is some actual jank in some customs, even if it's overstated, Heavy Skull Bash for example. The resolution to it is simple though, if Heavy Skull Bash is too much jank we ban it. Some goes for things like Lightning Falcon Kick that can create infinites. However, we need to give the customs metagame time to develop before we start banning things.

I think this argument of "new opportunities" and "diversity" is equivalent to the old argument of "depth" which was the cornerstone for demanding the Custom Fighters metagame replacing the tried-and-true competitive standard, hence Evo happened.

Evo was to be the proving ground, we were promised some kind of novelty for "diversity" and "depth" but what we got was non-custom Diddy vs non-custom Sheik! Looking beyond finals we saw nearly the entire top 8 virtually custom-less which also reflected the macrocosm of the competition at large

Customs not being used much in top 8 was a consequence of top players wanting to play with the moves they were most familiar with. Furthermore, many of the tournaments leading up to EVO didn't have custom moves legal, even though EVO did, so they did not have a high level environment to test customs in. However, looking at only the top 8 of a tournament of almost 2000 people does not paint an accurate picture of the impact of custom moves. Looking at the top 128 there are many examples of characters that would not ever be seen without customs. I highly doubt a Charizard could have won his pool with customs off. Customs not having an impact in top 8 was the fault of the players, not the moves.

So perhaps you may still have an (unrealistic?) optimism about Evo and the future of Customs but I have seen this kind of optimism from nearly armchair warrior who never attends tournaments demanding the game be played their way or not at all - like, can't we have room for competitive as well as a more casual experience without trying to destroy the other side? This is why I promote both Custom Fighters to be offered alongside or in rotation to the standard basic events.

Is this a good resolution to you?

Honestly, I'd love to say yes. I really do think that we should manage a customs meta and a regular meta at the same time until customs proves (or fails to prove) it's own merits. Unfortunately, this is where we run into what I think is the biggest problem with implementing customs is. If customs are run along side vanilla Smash 4, they may never get their chance to shine. Customs might just be regulated as a side event, as something "casual" and not to be taken seriously. The metagame then would not evolve, people would still get blown around the stage by DK, they would still not know how to deal with Villager planking, and customs would never hit their full potential.

The very fact that the tournaments that were supposed to be preparing for EVO didn't run customs shows just how seriously the community treats custom moves. This is why I think people are pushing so hard for custom moves to be used. Because I really think once people decide that customs are not compatible with competitive Smash 4, they're not going to get another chance. So yes, I do think running customs along side vanilla is the best course of action. But I think customs need to be treated as equals to vanilla, not as a casual side event.

As a side not there seems to be something wrong with your post, it appears to be the same message twice. Also if you wish to continue this conversation should we do so not in this article so we don't bog it down?

 

[SHiFT_]

That bit about Armada and Hungrybox seems like a jab at the Melee community. Hungrybox is notorious for his campy play style that does cause a lot of controversy, though his use of planking at EVO was agreeable excessive and hard to watch. Armada spammed lasers to counter-camp Hungrybox, because approaching would have cost him a stock or even the entire tournament. In Armada's defense, he does not typically use the laser play style that he showed during his sets with Hungrybox in the top 8.

And jokes about Fox being the only viable character in Melee are very outdated. It's 2015; the top 8 had seven different character reps this year... Not to mention that both players in Sm4sh grand finals were Sheik mains. Your game has balance issues, too.

 

[Re4gNarsil]

http://smashboards.com/threads/customs-after-evo-should-they-be-in-or-out.410842/#post-19712974

Here's my thoughts, but even though I am and will sound pro-customs I'll heartily consent Omni raises valid points.

 

[L9999]

Exactly.


Sheik not having struggle to kill is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game, Little Mac having bad air game to compensate his great ground game is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game, Ganondorf not being slow to compensate his extremely powerfull strikes is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game, Diddy not having his "hoo ha" anymore is obviously damaging the meta and killing the game.
Or maybe, you just have to pick a character, accept all his good and bad attributes and stick with what he really is, vanilla. If he is not good enough for you, great, so pick another one, the game has lots of good vanilla options.
Now, listen, the problem of Ganondorf is not his specials, it is his general speed.... which really is too slow even for someone of his power.
And that is where the buff patches should come to play, not some custom that makes the same slow creature make a running weaker Warlock Punch or makes his recovery slight better....
Melee's Ganondorf is still the best Ganondorf Smash ever had, and guess what were 3 of the 4 specials he had in that game? You're right, they were 3 from the 1-1-1-1 moveset.

Yes but this is not Melee where Ganondorf had L-Cancelling, decent speed, and wavedash to do things. What if it's three out of the current specials of 1111 Ganon where in Melee? It's not the same atmosphere and it's not the same Ganon.

 

[Unknownkid]

Wait... this is a chance for Ganon to finally use his Sword and Ganon players don't want that? What is this?

Anyways, there are few flaws with Omni's points

1) Why should we care about the top players opinions? They don't want their metagame to change unless they are the ones changing it. We have Grandmaster Zero complained about Diddy being broken, ask for his ban, use Diddy then get mad when Diddy get nerf twices? Have you guys read Grandmaster Dabuz's twitter about EVO and Custom WFT? Custom WFT and later Custom Greninja! Oh come on man if this isn't obvious then I don't know what is.

2) One Meta > Two Meta. Honestly, I agree with you. Funny enough, the Custom Meta included the Default Set but Vanilla Meta does not include Customs. The choice is obvious if you want to combine the meta.

3) Newcomer accessibility? I admit you had me here. It does take time to unlock all the custom moves. Cheeky Sakurai for making it tedious. But if "new" melee players are able to unlock Mewtwo, Final Destination and GnW over a couple of days (maybe a week), cannot Smash 4 players do the same? We, the commentary, are always trying to find easiest and fastest way to lock customs. The turbo method might be faster than unlocking FD on melee. You don't have to be there to unlock them. Use the method while away or asleep. believe I finish my set within 3 days. But... this is time consuming and money is tight.

So... should we allow DLC Characters and Stages for Tournament? I mean newcomer need pay about $30-40 for everything. I mean if you are willing to purchase a $10 turbo controller for customs, why will you play 30 for DLC characters and stages? Hmm...

How about allowing Custom Palutena and Mii Fighters? Their customs are unlocked from the start, so they should be legal right? Right...?

No because you cannot fight them in FG? Shouldn't we use FD and Omega Mode for our stage picks. FG does it. How about Sudden Death?

I secretly think Omni is for customs metagame. His point is leaning toward customs guys.

 

[T0MMY]

These comments are what I was referring to. If they served a purpose then that's fine, but frankly they seemed to be there to be rude and insult me based on a few things I said. That being said though, I think there have been a few miscommunications.

Please look up the definition of an ad hominem, then come back.

Degenerative gameplay is still degenerative gameplay even if it's adapted to.

Exactly.

I think this is a miscommunication, if necessary, read what I said earlier as such...
So yes, I am arguing in the competitive realm.

Fair enough, so please leave the "for fun" argument aside for now. We can continue.

Conjecture and speculation is also not grounds of discussion. Saying that oversights will not be adjusted implies there are oversights in customs that currently need to be adjusted, which is another topic of discussion.

I'm actually referring to what the balance team said - the balance oversights will not be patched because it would take too long. No speculation, it will not be done officially.

Semantics, the point is that there are characters who do not benefit at all from custom moves.

My point still stands it's not your job to balance the game, as mentioned above it is the dev team that does that and Sakurai already said he was not going to balance customs - competitively speaking if the game has a mode of play that is non-competitive and one that is then we play the competitive mode.
You can still try and play it competitively, but I cannot fathom how you could logically argue against this reasoning.

Arguing that DLC characters not getting customs is a problem is identical to arguing that characters not getting the same quality customs is a problem.

That is fallacy of wrong analogy. It is not like that - it is strictly conflicting with any argument of "fair", again this is strictly logically speaking and the reason for the shift in argument through wrongful analogy. Keep it on topic.

Let's say that, hypothetically, every single custom variation of Kirby was a different character, and we were limited to 10 of them.

Imaginary hypotheticals aren't applicable for practical rulesets.

we are banning versions of Kirby that have a 0% usage rate.

Yes, and any ban requires criteria to be met. Otherwise it's scrubbery and isn't used for competition.

What I am trying to say is that people's perception as customs as jank would go away if customs were more widely accepted

Rose tinted glasses.
If only the world was this perfect.
This is why I listed jank as a real issue to be resolved - because this happens in reality and you will need real solutions to address it. Get to it.

I highly doubt a Charizard could have won his pool with customs off. Customs not having an impact in top 8 was the fault of the players, not the moves.

Which pool was this? Please link me to the pool on the Evo site.
I am curios about details even though "doubt" does not make rulesets.

If customs are run along side vanilla Smash 4, they may never get their chance to shine. Customs might just be regulated as a side event, as something "casual" and not to be taken seriously.

Strange, a free market would allow for the strongest offering to prosper. See, as a competitive player I have no fears of supporting the Standard Competition ruleset - if Custom Fighters is used then I go with the competition, if not then I go with the competition. I think air is fair and want to compete in the strongest environment, not one that forces people to play a certain way whether they like it or not.

Also if you wish to continue this conversation should we do so not in this article so we don't bog it down?

I've been wanting to write something on this, maybe I can carry it over to another place.

 

[Edward Arima]

I pretty much agree with Omni in this video, though I'm not in the mood to argue with people in this comment section, so I'm just gonna say this: we need to wait and see what happens in Smash 4's vanilla meta in the future. I don't feel adding another meta will make anything better at all, but that's just me.

 

[LancerStaff]

Wait... this is a chance for Ganon to finally use his Sword and Ganon players don't want that? What is this?

Anyways, there are few flaws with Omni's points

1) Why should we care about the top players opinions? They don't want their metagame to change unless they are the ones changing it. We have Grandmaster Zero complained about Diddy being broken, ask for his ban, use Diddy then get mad when Diddy get nerf twices? Have you guys read Grandmaster Dabuz's twitter about EVO and Custom WFT? Custom WFT and later Custom Greninja! Oh come on man if this isn't obvious then I don't know what is.

2) One Meta > Two Meta. Honestly, I agree with you. Funny enough, the Custom Meta included the Default Set but Vanilla Meta does not include Customs. The choice is obvious if you want to combine the meta.

3) Newcomer accessibility? I admit you had me here. It does take time to unlock all the custom moves. Cheeky Sakurai for making it tedious. But if "new" melee players are able to unlock Mewtwo, Final Destination and GnW over a couple of days (maybe a week), cannot Smash 4 players do the same? We, the commentary, are always trying to find easiest and fastest way to lock customs. The turbo method might be faster than unlocking FD on melee. You don't have to be there to unlock them. Use the method while away or asleep. believe I finish my set within 3 days. But... this is time consuming and money is tight.

So... should we allow DLC Characters and Stages for Tournament? I mean newcomer need pay about $30-40 for everything. I mean if you are willing to purchase a $10 turbo controller for customs, why will you play 30 for DLC characters and stages? Hmm...

How about allowing Custom Palutena and Mii Fighters? Their customs are unlocked from the start, so they should be legal right? Right...?

No because you cannot fight them in FG? Shouldn't we use FD and Omega Mode for our stage picks. FG does it. How about Sudden Death?

I secretly think Omni is for customs metagame. His point is leaning toward customs guys.

No customs is included in customs? Let's just turn items on because it includes items off. You don't need to use items, after all.

 

[Unknownkid]

No customs is included in customs? Let's just turn items on because it includes items off. You don't need to use items, after all.

I totally agree. Thank god when you turn items to NONE when they are on, no items drop randomly right?

Come on, Lancer. Custom Sets = Items doesn't hold any water. We are against Items because they are appear randomly. The only random part of custom moves is the unlocking feature... and if you want to stretch it - when you face your opponent online (unless you tell each other what set you have).

It will kind of cool to turn off Stage Hazard/Boss tho.

 

[LancerStaff]

I totally agree. Thank god when you turn items to NONE when they are on, no items drop randomly right?

Come on, Lancer. Custom Sets = Items doesn't hold any water. We are against Items because they are appear randomly. The only random part of custom moves is the unlocking feature... and if you want to stretch it - when you face your opponent online (unless you tell each other what set you have).

It will kind of cool to turn off Stage Hazard/Boss tho.

Then limit it to safe items. Is it really that hard? Now you don't have to use them, but I can because I want to and doesn't encroach on you. Right?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Then limit it to safe items. Is it really that hard? Now you don't have to use them, but I can because I want to and doesn't encroach on you. Right?

Items as a whole are still random spawns; you can't predict them. And what qualifies as a "safe" item anyways? The only "safe" item is Smash Balls, everything else is either randomized bull or janky as hell.

 

[LancerStaff]

Items as a whole are still random spawns; you can't predict them. And what qualifies as a "safe" item anyways? The only "safe" item is Smash Balls, everything else is either randomized bull or janky as hell.

Then don't use them?

 

[Unknownkid]

Then limit it to safe items. Is it really that hard? Now you don't have to use them, but I can because I want to and doesn't encroach on you. Right?

Still doesn't stop random drops and explosive boxes. But yeah... I am fine with it. Since the randomness is not always in your favor, I can take advantage of them and turn them against you. As long as I outplay you and adapt then I will be fine. Don't you agree?

Items as a whole are still random spawns; you can't predict them. And what qualifies as a "safe" item anyways? The only "safe" item is Smash Balls, everything else is either randomized bull or janky as hell.

Be careful Mr. Dastardly Ridleylash. You fell for his trap.

 

[LancerStaff]

Still doesn't stop random drops and explosive boxes. But yeah... I am fine with it. Since the randomness is not always in your favor, I can take advantage of them and turn them against you. As long as I outplay you and adapt then I will be fine. Don't you agree?


Be careful Mr. Dastardly Ridleylash. You fell for his trap.

You can turn off all random explosives as of Brawl.

And take a guess as to why even safe items aren't allowed.

 

[Unknownkid]

You can turn off all random explosives as of Brawl.

And take a guess as to why even safe items aren't allowed.

Because of random drops?

 

[TheComebackKid]

Meta Knight, Beam Swords only, Smashville. LETS DO THIS!

 

[LancerStaff]

Because of random drops?

You don't have to use them, remember? It's actually because people still have to deal with others actually using them. They're at a severe disadvantage for not using items, so playing with items is necessary if they want to win.

Same with customs. Customs on meta doesn't include customs off meta.

 

[ZeroSkillSamus]

If people are against customs at this point, they're either against them because banning them would

A) give them an advantage because their best set is closer to 1111
B) give them an advantage because they would lose bad matchups
C) reduce frustrations because they don't want to learn more matchups and prefer a smaller skill and knowledge requirement
D) give them credence in their social circle

or

E) they're dumb or ignorant

Some combination of the above.

"Customs take too long to unlock" / "Tournaments can't reliably get customs"

Yeah, it's annoying, but not impossible. We have yet to have any major issues and now TWO majors have run with customs with no issues. It takes planning. First tournament in a region with customs can be rough, after that it's typically smooth sailing.

"Customs are janky / customs are too good / some other balance complaint"

Customs haven't changed player OR character results at the top level in any meaningful way. The finals of EVO was two 1111 sets, and those that used customs used only one or two per set, but the names weren't particularly surprising.

"Customs only haven't changed results because top players don't use customs"

Yes they did. More importantly, if you feel that more custom use = better placement, the same players that were predicted to make top 8 still made top 8.

"If customs don't change results, why have them in the first place?"

Because they change the game at other levels of play and allow for the possibility of more unique counterpicks and character choices.

"Customs take no skill / are spammable"

Lots of things are spammable, lots of characters are easier than others. If customs were so brain numbingly easy to use, we'd have seen results variation very quickly.

"(name of top players) are against customs"

So? Mango's a top player in Melee and he thinks Smash 4 sucks. Zero's a nice guy and is skilled and all, but he's ranted about almost everything at this point. He complained about Lucario, for pete's sake. ESAM talked about how broken thunder wave + HSB was for pikachu and the guy got 7th and lost a game to a G&W.

Top players don't know everything.

"It's not fair for other characters to get better moves when all my customs suck"

That's because 1111 is your best. You started at where they want to be.

"It's not fair to force people to get customs"

We force them to do stuff all the time. We force them to spend money on DLC now. We force them to unlock stages, characters. If they want custom sets, we can put them on their wii u via 3DS.

"It's too much for a new player to learn, too high a barrier of entry"

Melee dwarfed Smash 4's numbers on EVO's stream and it requires you to literally sit in your room and practice against a level 1 CPU for hours to even move your character properly. It's doing fine. Having to watch a youtube video on characters you don't already know won't kill anyone.

Honestly, at this point I'm done with smash. The smash community is mostly scrubs, but there's just so many now it's hard to not have your voice drowned out.

We were told that customs would be too hard to run at a regular tournament, then we did it.

We were told it'd be too hard to run at a national tournament, then we did it twice.

We were told that DK's wind up+b was broken, that thunder wave and HSB were broken for Pikachu, that Mii Brawler was broken, that Mario's Gust Cape was broken, that Wario's Fast Bike was broken, that Diddy's explosive barrels were broken, that Marth's crescent slash was broken, that Luigi's ice fireballs were broken, that Rosalina's shooting star bit and warp were broken, and NONE OF THESE MOVES have had more than a marginal effect on tournament placements.

Every doom and gloom announcement around customs has been incorrect, but it doesn't matter. The people that don't want customs don't care that customs are balanced, they don't care if they bring no negative effects. They decided a long time ago that they didn't want customs and no evidence will sway them because they weren't interested in trying them in the first place.

You, sir, are a true genius.

 

[LancerStaff]

You, sir, are a true genius.

Besides the whole being unbalanced thing.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Youtube captions are silly.

Omni: "I could have Ganondorf beaking targets"

Youtube CC: "I could have Canada breaking Targets"

R.I.P. employees of Target, you only lasted 6 months here.

As for customs: I'm not a fan of them. I'm happy with what I can use when they're on for both Fox and Wario, but I'd rather play default characters. If my opponent uses customs, then I'll use customs too.

The whole thing T0MMY is saying on "jank" is not whether something is beatable or not. Ally stated on an FB post that (paraphrased) "they're beatable, but the amount of work you have to put in to beat something that only requires one input to abuse is ridiculous." That's degenerate gameplay to me, and I wholly agree with all of T0MMY's posts.

• Rose Waft: Deals less damage than Wario Waft, but its faster charge-up, and ability to add damaging flowers can be handy.

Small correction, Rose Waft actually takes longer to charge, but in the end is the one you should be using because of the flower. Not to mention the hitbox is wider, it's basically a wide-range Rest that is not punishable.

 

[Omegascizor456]

PLEASE no more customs! they are annoying and unbalanced

 

[-LzR-]

PLEASE no more customs! they are annoying and unbalanced

Fast Fireballs OP please ban