OK! Ness Q&A/Social Thread

[The_NZA]

man shine grabbing with ness

20XX so stylish

We call it Mag-Grabbin.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

so i was knocked offstage on smashville the other day and about to recover, no big deal. then the balloon comes out of nowhere from behind and eats my up b.
thats the last damn straw

 

[The_NZA]

so i was knocked offstage on smashville the other day and about to recover, no big deal. then the balloon comes out of nowhere from behind and eats my up b.
thats the last damn straw

Yeah, YI brawl shyguys are also frequent offenders. I wish there was a way to make those ******** not hang around the "recovery zone" of characters like Ness. Like, it wouldn't be an issue if the baloon just floated above the stage without going off to the sides of it.

Randall will do you in, as well.

 

[choknater]

haha yea wow remind me to always strike that one

 

[Kayo]

so i was knocked offstage on smashville the other day and about to recover, no big deal. then the balloon comes out of nowhere from behind and eats my up b.
thats the last damn straw

Bryon, it returned.

 

[Bryonato]

so i was knocked offstage on smashville the other day and about to recover, no big deal. then the balloon comes out of nowhere from behind and eats my up b.
thats the last damn straw

oh God. this happened to me in my first ever streamed tournament match LOL. Pretty sure the vid is there in the video thread.

 

[choknater]

just watched that awestin vid lol, amazing

 

[Eagleye893]

YAY! Ness da bess! I come from the land of "Brawl" and PM/Melee is much more funs.
How do people get good at the melee style of movement quickly? I started at the beginning of the New Year and I don't know when/where to dash-dance/wavedash.

 

[The_NZA]

YAY! Ness da bess! I come from the land of "Brawl" and PM/Melee is much more funs.
How do people get good at the melee style of movement quickly? I started at the beginning of the New Year and I don't know when/where to dash-dance/wavedash.

Go to final d, and just practice hitting the stick in a direction, letting it go back to neutral, and hitting the stick in the same direction again. Vary up the legnths of each dash, doing them one after another. Then start turning around in a middle of a dash. Not fast--but rhythmically go back and forward, back and forward, changing the distances you travel before you turn around.

This is how you perfect a dash dance. You won't see the returns in your games immediately...but keep putting time into it and then suddenly overnight you will see your game drastically improve. Once you get dash dancing down (and that takes a while), thne you can practice interrupting a dash with a wavedash, and interuptnig the wavedash with a dash.

Also, if someone hasn't already told you, SHFFling is wayyyy more important than any other Melee advanced technique. In the case of Ness, just like i've stressed practicing different lengths of dash dances/foxtrots, try out different swings, and angles you can get out of Double Jump canceled aerials.

 

[Eagleye893]

Go to final d, and just practice hitting the stick in a direction, letting it go back to neutral, and hitting the stick in the same direction again. Vary up the legnths of each dash, doing them one after another. Then start turning around in a middle of a dash. Not fast--but rhythmically go back and forward, back and forward, changing the distances you travel before you turn around.

This is how you perfect a dash dance. You won't see the returns in your games immediately...but keep putting time into it and then suddenly overnight you will see your game drastically improve. Once you get dash dancing down (and that takes a while), thne you can practice interrupting a dash with a wavedash, and interuptnig the wavedash with a dash.

Also, if someone hasn't already told you, SHFFling is wayyyy more important than any other Melee advanced technique. In the case of Ness, just like i've stressed practicing different lengths of dash dances/foxtrots, try out different swings, and angles you can get out of Double Jump canceled aerials.

I've already got SHFFLing more or less mastered. I've been spending most of my time with that. xP I have few problems with L-Canceling except sometimes when I drop from higher up.

Thanks for the tips with dashing though. I always had that problem thinking that I needed to hold down the stick more when dashing than I needed to. I never really perfected fox-trot/dashing stuff in Brawl. Knowing how to move properly in this game is so much harder to pick up than I thought it would be at first, because there're so many ways you can react or alter your movement and momentum.

About DJC Aerials, I've been trying to incorporate using PSI-Magnet in more combos and have been having trouble with keeping low enough to the ground if I Magnet > DJ > Aerial with CStick for lower percents. Will I get quicker with that motion of pressing X/Y then the CStick over time, or are there any other tips with that? I'm used to DJC'ing with A+direction, but when moving forward/backward with the second jump and using the opposite aerial (ie double-jumping forward then using BAIR to DJC and L-Cancel) I sometimes move the wrong direction or use the wrong aerial or input the aerial too late for the DJC to be easily fast-falled to the ground.

 

[The_NZA]

I've already got SHFFLing more or less mastered. I've been spending most of my time with that. xP I have few problems with L-Canceling except sometimes when I drop from higher up.

Thanks for the tips with dashing though. I always had that problem thinking that I needed to hold down the stick more when dashing than I needed to. I never really perfected fox-trot/dashing stuff in Brawl. Knowing how to move properly in this game is so much harder to pick up than I thought it would be at first, because there're so many ways you can react or alter your movement and momentum.

About DJC Aerials, I've been trying to incorporate using PSI-Magnet in more combos and have been having trouble with keeping low enough to the ground if I Magnet > DJ > Aerial with CStick for lower percents. Will I get quicker with that motion of pressing X/Y then the CStick over time, or are there any other tips with that? I'm used to DJC'ing with A+direction, but when moving forward/backward with the second jump and using the opposite aerial (ie double-jumping forward then using BAIR to DJC and L-Cancel) I sometimes move the wrong direction or use the wrong aerial or input the aerial too late for the DJC to be easily fast-falled to the ground.

Honestly, I'd stay away from magnet until you feel like you've really mastered DJC and can do any angle you want. I think Magnet hinders peoples spacing/fundamental game, and if you cna't do that with Ness, you aren't goign anywhere anyhow.

 

[choknater]

yeah magnet is really really situational

i mainly use it for recovery, absorption, and to mix up shield pressure. i still haven't practiced it enough in combos but i usually pick other options

 

[ArtehFX]

k so does Ness' f-air have more knock back than in melee;if so, at what % would it be safe to use as an approach/combo extender?

 

[Bryonato]

It's the same as melee afaik

 

[ArtehFX]

It's the same as melee afaik

so ness still relies on baiting and spamming pk fire

 

[42069]

So how reliant are you guys' on ness' dash attack? I'm by no means on a competitive level, and my main approaches consist of DJCing a PK Fire into a down throw followed by any appropriate aerial, or a dash attack to launch them and aerial them as well.

You guys have any other basic, go-to combos/approaches to share?

 

[The_NZA]

So how reliant are you guys' on ness' dash attack? I'm by no means on a competitive level, and my main approaches consist of DJCing a PK Fire into a down throw followed by any appropriate aerial, or a dash attack to launch them and aerial them as well.

You guys have any other basic, go-to combos/approaches to share?

DA had better range in melee and an important part of Ness's kit, but in this game it is less important due to PKfire opening similar options while being safer. With that said, it combos really well into followups on some characters (DK comes to mind, who can't stop eating bairs after a DA).

 

[SpaceJello]

DA -> bair is b&b. this works on almost all of the characters. certain characters that can jump before you bair( g&w,mario, zelda) can be hit with an uair instead

 

[The_NZA]

DA -> bair is b&b. this works on almost all of the characters. certain characters that can jump before you bair( g&w,mario, zelda) can be hit with an uair instead

It's kind of high risk high reward since it telegraphs itself and its slow. Sometimes that risk is better since it can lead to kills, and sometimes its worse (hate it when a Zelda is too high percent for DA to uair).

 

[Bryonato]

Yeah I find DA mostly good as a tech chase. Very easy to catch someone tech rolling away from you with a DA

 

[42069]

DA had better range in melee and an important part of Ness's kit, but in this game it is less important due to PKfire opening similar options while being safer. With that said, it combos really well into followups on some characters (DK comes to mind, who can't stop eating bairs after a DA).

Yeah, my friend mains DK. Doesn't have a great time against my Ness, haha. If i can manage to get him off the stage there's probably a 50/50 shot i'll end up just spiking him with dair since his recovery is pretty much completely horizontal. Honestly, I love playing against any of the bigger characters. Their hitboxes are huge, it's so easy to rack up damage with DJC'd fairs.

 

[Zero May Cry]

Random question- can you absorb the in place Din's Fire with Magnet? I'm away from my Wii so I can't lab it for a few days. Thanks for the help!

 

[The_NZA]

Random question- can you absorb the in place Din's Fire with Magnet? I'm away from my Wii so I can't lab it for a few days. Thanks for the help!

Yes you can but it's easier said than done.

 

[choknater]

i use dash attack to disrupt dash dances when pk fire is too predictable, and to force respect from some ground based characters like falcon, ganon, ike, and sonic

 

[The_NZA]

i use dash attack to disrupt dash dances when pk fire is too predictable, and to force respect from some ground based characters like falcon, ganon, ike, and sonic

Same. It's good to throw out (especially if you try and hit with the last hitbox)

 

[Zero May Cry]

Thanks NZA.

Another question, has anyone here tried B-sticking? (setting specials to the c-stick in place of smash attacks) It makes wavebouncing execution very easy and allows you to execute Magnet without going to that sometimes awkward down-b position. I've been messing around with it. How do you guys feel?

 

[Bryonato]

I rely on cstick too much for everything else to switch it to special, esp. considering i can do most wb/breverse stuff with ease.

 

[GMaster171]

Was in the lab earlier and decided to address a large problem in Ness' game, his near the ledge game. I discovered a mostly safe and quick way of refreshing ledge invulnerability, using the Ledgehop Double Jump Cancel (coined LJC) that has been discussed for awhile in the Ness skype group.

TL:DR: Ledge jump->forward double jump->down+back airdodge allows Ness to quickly regrab the ledge with only around a 4th of a second (around 15 frames) of vulnerability.

To explain this first, I have to summarize LJC. Due to Ness' unique double jump (DJ), he cant do traditional edge options such as a ledge hop or ledge dash, the both leave Ness extremely vulnerable and take a long amount of time. Instead, he can utilise his DJ and the ledge jump mechanics to great avail. After waiting out both the ledge grab and ledge jump animations, Ness has a total of 17 active frames while still invulnerable, enough to do any DJC aerial, or WD into shield/jab/d-tilt. Most other characters are forced to follow their ledgejump trajectory, while Ness can change his his moves.

Note that ledge jump is the act of hitting jump while on the ledge, and ledge hop is hitting back to let go of the ledge, and double jumping right after.

Now the ledge refresh technique involves doing a ledge jump, forward double jumping immediately, and doing a slightly delayed airdodge back towards the ledge, and a angle such that Ness is grounded for a few frames before falling back off and grabbing the ledge. In practice it looks much like Hax Dashing, and does a similar (though slightly worse) job. I have an example from the day of this post in this twitch vid:
http://www.twitch.tv/gmaster171/c/3947850

Going into technical stuff, when you grab the ledge (and assuming perfect timing from here on), you have 37 frames of invulnerability that passes onto any action. 6 of these frames are taken by simply grabbing the ledge, and another 14 are taken by doing the ledge jump (more if you are above 100%). After this you have 17 frames of invulnerability left, but this is where it hits a catch. In the game there is a timer of 29 frames between times you can ledge grab again. This means that even if we perfectly time the DJ and the wavedash, we will pass by the ledge unable to grab it. this gives a early fail window and forces us to waste frames in one of 3 places:
1) the time between the end of the ledge hop and the double jump. This is the worst place to waste frames, as delaying too much will cause you to either not reach the ground after the DJ, or miss the ledge completely and fall to your death.
2) after the DJ. Ness' DJ doesn't get significant height until after frame 6 or so, so we can afford to safely waste a few frames here.
3) during the airdodge->sliding on the ground part before you fall off. This is the most controllable place to waste frames, as it depends on how sharp your angle is in combination with how late your DJ is. the more horizontal your airdodge is, the fewer frames you will use here. the focus here is to do the least horizontal airdodge possible while still sliding off the ledge, all of the ledge grab timer can be wasted here.

Successfully wasting the perfect number of frames will leave Ness with 12 frames of vulnerability before regrabbing the ledge, but this is of little consequence, as this tech is mostly focusing on refreshing against off stage or far away opponents.

The downsides here are the fail windows. Doing the whole thing too quickly will cause Ness to either be exposed trying to grab the ledge, or miss it completely. doing the double jump too late, missing the sideways DJ or hitting sideways too early will cause you to be too high, too close to the ledge and to stand respectively. doing the airdodge too late will either cause you to be too far away or have a difficult angle, and missing the angle can either kill you or deposit you beside the ledge, the latter being better of course.

However these are much more daunting than they seem, after minutes of practice I became fairly consistent with it, and I'd imagine with dedicated practice would make it muscle memory quickly. As for uses, see Hax dashing for similarities (remember this is much riskier), or to refresh our ledge invulnerability without having to drop and use our DJ.

 

[Bestrin]

What is the best grip for DJC play with Ness, primarily Project:M?

I find it difficult to a rising aerial using the standard grip because if I hold my thumb on X, I can't input on c-stick so I have to do an A-analog combo, which is hard to be accurate with. Unfortunately you can't do raising aerials with tap-jump, or else this would be a non-issue. I tried some DJC practice with claw (thumb on c-stick, index on A, middle finger on X), and I was much more comfortable doing DJCs and raising aerials, but everything else was uncomfortable because I'm new to it.

 

[The_NZA]

What is the best grip for DJC play with Ness, primarily Project:M?

I find it difficult to a rising aerial using the standard grip because if I hold my thumb on X, I can't input on c-stick so I have to do an A-analog combo, which is hard to be accurate with. Unfortunately you can't do raising aerials with tap-jump, or else this would be a non-issue. I tried some DJC practice with claw (thumb on c-stick, index on A, middle finger on X), and I was much more comfortable doing DJCs and raising aerials, but everything else was uncomfortable because I'm new to it.

Generally, tap jump is paired with cstick, and x->x is paired with the a button. Also, I use R to jump sometimes paired with the cstick.

 

[Bestrin]

Generally, tap jump is paired with cstick, and x->x is paired with the a button. Also, I use R to jump sometimes paired with the cstick.

I see. So do you use a "standard" grip?

 

[The_NZA]

Yup. But I change my buttons (not that I think its necessary). I set Y to special, so that my thumb can sit on "attack, jump, special" all at the same time. I set R to jump, so that I can do full jumps with cstick aerials while stil manuevering horizontally in any way I feel comfortable. I also set b to shield for easier power shielding.

 

[Bestrin]

Yup. But I change my buttons (not that I think its necessary). I set Y to special, so that my thumb can sit on "attack, jump, special" all at the same time. I set R to jump, so that I can do full jumps with cstick aerials while stil manuevering horizontally in any way I feel comfortable. I also set b to shield for easier power shielding.

Interesting! Maybe I'll try that out and see if I like any of those optiions.

 

[Bryonato]

I have R set to attack for dacus/rising aerials. works well for rising nair offstage or something. I more often claw for something like a rising Uair/dair out of magnet

 

[Kayo]

I use "standard" grip and no button changes and I do well for myself. I don't think it gets in my way at all.

 

[Bryonato]

I'm really liking LJC magnet

 

[choknater]

Does ljc really keep the invincibility during an aerial? i checked the frame data and both the invincibility and animation last 14 frames. I keep getting hit.

Are you cancelling the animation? Or are you using a different set of invincibility frames, like the ones immediately after a ledge grab?

 

[Bryonato]

i was actually wondering this too

 

[choknater]

Haha you're the one that told me it was invincible!! I'm gonna test it out myself right now. I'm gonna try to use the invincibility frames from the ledge grab. If thats the only way then it's pretty situational. Otherwise i just like to ledge jump, magnet, then djc aerial.

 

[Bryonato]

hey man i was just relaying info