OK! Ness Q&A/Social Thread

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
Super Moderator
GRimer
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
7,292
Location
Land's End (NorCal)
#6
Oh. I wouldn't know, because I've been without P:M for a few weeks :(

Then I would like to divert everyone's attention to magnet, and how it looks like it'll be really awesome but I can't help but feel like as the metagame develops it's going to lose its usefulness.

:059:
 

SinisterB

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
2,455
Location
BC
NNID
shadymaiden
#9
SinisterB more like SinisterFree. Or SinisterBadAtVideogames, take your pick.

Jason knows what's up <3

On-topic: nB spam too good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Taqdcg4jzis&list=PLD5K4qnLMSMlRkwlFvLOOwmArLP_aM5Ya&index=1

:059:
SinisterFree rolls of the tongue quite nicely, imo. Jason is as fraudulent as it gets though, but I still love you Ish.

New Magnet is amazing, all-around great utility as well as an alright combo start. I like to think of it like an aerial wavedash, but with a hitbox and about a million other uses. Definitely think it will become a big part of the new Ness meta. Aerial Magnet -> UAir is ok, or if you've already started a chain/FAir, Magnet allows you to continue by using it's momentum. Try things out yourself and get creative, you'll be pretty impressed by how fluid it feels.

Turnaround magnet -> DJ can be used offstage to grab the edge almost instantly, and Magnets offstage in general lead to some wonky things.

Been thinking about changing control scheme for better/quicker DJCs, Any suggestions?
I like to stick to default controls, personally. If i'm not UAiring or DAiring, I choose between double tap X or Cstick + Up on the analog depending on the situation. Analog gives me the lowest possible DJC with a hitbox out, where as double tap is to be more precise as well as use his new DJ momentum. The only change I make to my controls is Y for Footstool, since Ness' DJC Aerials are guaranteed if he lands one.
 

yoshi8984

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 18, 2011
Messages
1,107
Location
Canada, Laval, Quebec
NNID
TimmyTendo
Switch FC
SW-6176-0583-0131
#10
Hey there. Name's Timmy. I use Ness in both Brawl and Project M, but I love Project M's Ness so much. In Brawl, I've used Yo-yos a lot, and in Project M, I love Yo-yos even more. I also love his PK Fire; no more of that horrendous ending lag and it activates on shield too! :bee:

I haven't played this game competitively as I haven't gone to a Project M tourney and my area... well it doesn't have a popular smash scene. =P
 

SinisterB

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
2,455
Location
BC
NNID
shadymaiden
#12
Flash is okay. I'm all about the new fire mechanics instead thanks to knockback stacking. KBS allows you to trap an opponent inside while you finish them off with a few quick aerials. Yields some pretty interesting follow ups. I like to do DJC NAir -> DJC BAir if they don't escape the initial fire in time, at high percents, and rack up quick percent via UAir & DAir otherwise. It's actually a nice set-up for magnet too which is cool. Forces your opponent to SDI properly, in which case you can follow up accordingly.

If you aren't sure what i'm talking about try it out for yourself in Training.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
Location
Halifax, NS
#13
I'm here lol. Don't exactly like the forum change, but whatever... its good that this mod is getting more popular.

I worked a ton on Ness already, so I will post her rather often, trying to do whatever I can to help. I love how Ness plays, and I have always played as him (since back in N64), so I'm rather devoted through odd changes.

Knockback stacking is a double edged sword for Ness imo. On one hand, if they get caught in PKF on stage, you can get in a free dair and still grab cause they wont be able to tech. On the other hand, you can't have guaranteed kills through f-smash onstage, or dair offstage when you catch with PKF. Kinda makes Ness a little more reliant on b-throw, nair and in general baiting attacks to kill... but it makes it easier to get into the % where these kills work.

btw, If anyone is interested, I could grab my post about the PKF AT I found... tho idk if I should post here, in another thread, or in a completely new thread, idk how this place works.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
Location
Halifax, NS
#15
K, I'll just put it in collapse so its not just a block of annoying text. This is a copy paste from the other thread. And it does indeed work in 2.5.

I'm back again with another tech Ness can use to get a rather surprising edge on a ground based spacing opponent (Bowser, Ganon, Lucario, Link, those kinds of people).

It seems that if you manage to land on the exact frame that PKF comes out, it shoots out horizontally across the base of the floor, as though you shot it grounded, while still only having the lag from landing while using PKF (much less than just going grounded.)

Now what does this mean for Ness? If your opponent loves using jumping whenever you use grounded PKF, and WD/DD away when you jump, you can do the best from both parts. they will see you jumping to PFK, but be hit by the thing flying horizontally. High level players are good at reacting yes, but you have to remember that almost everything they react to is more prediction than reaction. They can predict you ditching your effort to PKF, but they cant predict the bolt coming out along the ground.

Now before you ignore this because of its single frame window (which buffer will not help) you have to remember the skill levels we have already achieved. Waveshines and even Falco's silent laser from VBrawl are excelent examples. Both are rather frame tight, both net high rewards, and while messing up waveshines might get you punished, Falco has a 50/50 chance of still being safe, depending if he does it too early or too late. With this technique, Ness has no downside to at least trying it. If your opponent is avoiding all your PKFs anyway, It nets no downside as you would have been punished if you didnt try it anyway. Doing it too early or late gives no different amount of vulnerability than doing it normally or with this method.

This tech is much like the silent laser tho, its execution comes down to the feeling of the jump. You wont really know exactly what frame you are supposed to do it on in the heat of a battle, but through practice and muscle memory, I imagine we could get this into regular gameplay, or at least as an amazing mixup in the off chance it is done.

Now I don't know the exact frame data of course, i imagine I could find it if I wanted to, but for now I really don't need it. How I have been doing it is:
SH, at the apex of your jump, PKF. An instant later, FF. If done right, you will land with the regular lag, but the PKF will come out at ground level horizontally, fully functional and rather hard to notice when there are people dashing around.

Through an hour of lab work I have gotten it down to this (successful attempts/total attempts)
1/4th speed: 94/100
1/2 speed 65/100
2/3 speed 41/100
full speed 19/100
1.5 speed 2/100 (lol)

Of course these rates seem not good enough to even go for... but when you have almost a 1/5 chance of a free combo, an amazing mixup and the 40%+ damage that comes from a successful PKF->Grab, it is more than worth it in my eyes to at least try it from time to time, as well as go in the lab to practice the timing and get the feel of the tech. Finally you have to consider how long it took before things like Silent laser or waveshine was actually put into good play. While P:M has a highly accelerated metagame, one hour of work for rates like that is amazing.


TL:DR, You can do aerial PKF and shoot horizontally. Its a little difficult but worth it to have as a tool to mixup your game, and force them to consider another option, instead of just DD every time you do a PKF in the air. The risk is equal to doing it normally, and the reward is greater than doing it either way. Explanation is in the collapsed part, so actually read it if you are interested.
 

SinisterB

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
2,455
Location
BC
NNID
shadymaiden
#16
Knockback stacking is a double edged sword for Ness imo. On one hand, if they get caught in PKF on stage, you can get in a free dair and still grab cause they wont be able to tech. On the other hand, you can't have guaranteed kills through f-smash onstage, or dair offstage when you catch with PKF. Kinda makes Ness a little more reliant on b-throw, nair and in general baiting attacks to kill... but it makes it easier to get into the % where these kills work.
At higher percents, DJC NAir -> DJC BAir will kill them. I look for it when I can since it's a good finisher. Offstage fires are a little weird now, but you can DAir them twice or go into a magnet instead. It takes some getting used too, but I feel Ness is overall much, much better than his 2.1 counterpart.

Magus has created a monster.
 

yoshi8984

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 18, 2011
Messages
1,107
Location
Canada, Laval, Quebec
NNID
TimmyTendo
Switch FC
SW-6176-0583-0131
#17
Has someone figured out all the changes for Ness from Demo 2.1 to Demo 2.5? I'd like to know because I have trouble seeing changes. XP
Only thing that I've noticed is D-Tilt has a bit less lag, but I still don't think that makes the move good lol
Actually can D-Tilt even trip? :p
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
Location
Halifax, NS
#18
@sinister
Do you suggest doing 2 aerials because the first one will not hit them out? (Nair often does, it has lower hitlag I find)

I do feel Ness is more solid now, tho the fact that d-throw was slowed down seems kinda silly... but then again the rewards for getting a throw were equally as silly.

@Yoshi8984
d-tilt=Pikachu jab
this is quite accurate. only other thing is that it pops them up to nair after awhile

couldnt list every little change, there are to many subtle ones i imagine. Stuff like d-throw is slower, d-tilt is much faster, magnet can JC anytime and is a low tragectory launcher, PKT can hit Ness if he is struck while the bolt is out, bat can be tilted can be noticed.

Other things im speculating on is fair has little less end lag, uair has less base KB (I 0-death Ganon with 7 uairs, a fair and a dair) people have also been saying nair has increased range, but that may be a rumor. am unsure about these, so dont quote them until someone confirms them.
 

SinisterB

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
2,455
Location
BC
NNID
shadymaiden
#19
I'm planning on making an in-depth technical thread with most of his changes included, eventually. So just wait for that I suppose haha.

I don't think Dtilt trips people, but it doesn't really need too. It serves it's purpose as a solid CC option that pops up the opponent for a NAir or whatever. It works like melee where it IASAs into itself, which means it combos into itself occasionally and isn't bad against fast fallers. So yeah, decent damage rack or getting someone you feel is too close out of your face.


durr ninja'd

@GM, Yeah, two aerials is what I suggest. I use PKF as an opportunity to do some really low DJCs for extra percent, or like I said, netting kills. It depends how it hits them though, and how they SDI. For that reason I find landing aerial fire a lot more rewarding than grounded, but they're both useful. Dthrow was ridiculously free in 2.1, but I feel it still does it's job just fine.
 

Ganreizu

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Messages
670
#20
Has anyone incorporated either of his new yo-yo attacks into their playstyle? The only use i have tried is when someone is approaching from the air (a la falco) and i know the yo-yo has the priority to invalidate anything they try. Can't seem to see down smash being useful for anything except a safer edgeguard and even then i don't know if the angle it sends at would be favorable. Maybe as a way of creating space if the opponent is too close, but obviously with mag being a shine now that would do a significantly better job. It does have more kill power now though but down smash seems to still have the same lag so if you whiff it won't end well.

Also, what is this new pk flash technology called pk flash insurance? Does it not put you into special fall anymore so i can use it to stop edgehogging while i'm offstage?
 

Soft Serve

softie
Premium
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
4,163
Location
AZ
#21
D-smash is still an incredible edge guard for characters that cannot sweet spot the ledge, such as Falcon, Ganon, and Zard (I think still). Hits below the ledge, amazing disjoint, perfect sending angle for these characters. Its like a fox/falco dsmash, but that extends past the lip of the stage. The timing is more difficult, however.

PK Flash didn't put you into special fall in 2.1. From what I understand, If Ness is hit out of either his Pk Flash or PKT1, the projectiles become neutral and can hit anyone. This makes PK flash a bit safer, as it will still go off if hes hit out of it. It also allows for Ness to hit his PKT1 tail while being edgeguarded.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
Location
Halifax, NS
#23
lol, weird question but ok.

at low %, say under 50%, mash as much as you can. if you see you cant get out of sleep in time (if you get hit by 2nd or 3rd wave) DI to try to survive rest, which you know is coming. at high %, above 50%, still mash incase he flubs or something, but again prepare to DI rest, or f-smash. if you are caught above 100%, pinch yourself for getting caught in sing :p at that point just wait to die, but be prepared for any flub, mash as much as you can.

If you know you will die no matter what, no amount of mashing or DI will help, DI down and out, to die as fast as you can. if he decides to rest, you have the most time to setup whatever punish you want, and if he f-smashes, you just die faster (like Falco side-b deaths, just to make the game faster, not much else he can do)

if thats the answer you were looking for lol. its more a generalization for anyone caught in sing/shieldbreak
 

Little Nemo

The Dream Master
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
357
Location
Moses Lake, WA
NNID
LockableFaceman
#24
Has anyone incorporated either of his new yo-yo attacks into their playstyle?
new? They seem like the same attack to me. Just tweaked a little.

To the above question: wtf you mean by runs? Like tries to run from one side of jiggly to the other? Depends their speed. Ness can dash and usually get through it but can't always. Someone like Sonic could easily get through without falling asleep.
 

Jason!

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Messages
1,725
Location
BC, Canada
#25
Ahahah P:M edited me?

Sinister's ness iss freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
 

yoshi8984

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 18, 2011
Messages
1,107
Location
Canada, Laval, Quebec
NNID
TimmyTendo
Switch FC
SW-6176-0583-0131
#26
I love Yo-yos, they're excellent punishers for dodgers and have amazing range. They're also pretty quick, and can shield against some projectiles. I try to make the best of Ness' Ground Game even though it's not the best, and Yo-yos help with that a lot. XD

Also, I don't get Ness still being able to control his PKT1 after being hit. Does it hit with the same power as a PKT2 if it hits this way?
 

Soft Serve

softie
Premium
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
4,163
Location
AZ
#27
He doesn't control his projectiles after being hit, they just become un-owned and can hit anyone on the stage.
 

Little Nemo

The Dream Master
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
357
Location
Moses Lake, WA
NNID
LockableFaceman
#28
Oh.
And oh oh. The first time you asked you didn't give a specific person to answer it. But I now realize I read it wrong. xD
Ness kicks all sorts of butt now.

:phone:
 

SinisterB

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
2,455
Location
BC
NNID
shadymaiden
#30
Challenge him to a money match and crush his spirits with DJC.

"Fuzzy pickles"


DDD is free
 
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
859
Location
North Carolina
#36
instead of ness randomly geting the "picture shot taunt" could yall make it so double taping the taunt in quick succession gets the picture taunt. this double tap could be used with alot of characters if extra taunts are made.

Since ness' 8 frame down b isn't really a "shine" what can we call it? cause i actually use it for offence. shine : glow, shine-blind : Slow-Glow
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
Location
Halifax, NS
#37
The taunt is based on how fast you press the button. I don't know the exact frames for it, but a quick button press always results in a picture taunt (providing its fast enough), and holding, slow press will be okay taunt.

It doesn't need a name honestly, just call it PK magnet, that's its official name.
 

Kriteek

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
1
#38
With Ness I find chasing characters off the stage with Linear UB's such as Bowser, DK, Ike (FB), ect. But my friends when using characters such as Lucario or Mario seem to mash thru the first Dair and still recover even with Maximum damage. Now I Dair right as I DJ to make it safe to get back on stage but I can't hit them a second time with it and make it back on stage safely, Other than that I did like Sinister B's use of Fair into Mag, I'll have to give that a shot. And I did discover Ness' new taunt that **** is Boss!!!
 
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Messages
1,370
Location
In space
#39
For the guy who was asking about how to deal with D3:

Try using PK fire more if D3 if outranging you. Fatties tend to get ***** by PK fire, and D3 is no different. Smart D3's will begin to SH over grounded PK fires if you spam it too much, so be sure to mix in some aerial PK fires too. Don't forget to FF the aerial PK fires. You don't want to be in the air too long against a D3 who knows how to make the fullest of his own range. Once hes hit by a PK fire, he pretty much becomes combo food.
 
Top Bottom