OK! Ness Q&A/Social Thread

[SinisterB]

Ness is a pretty cool guy

 

[MarioNPinkie]

Ness is a pretty cool guy

Ive liked what ive seen so far in the little bit of time i played with him so with me its a work in progress lol

 

[GMaster171]

Ness has waited 14 years for someone to be able to say that and not be lying to stay with character loyalty lol.

@topic: Best approach options?

I cycle through fair (AC's and FF'd), RAR bair (AC'd for high, DJC for low), reverse WD slightly charged d-smash (for the initial hitbox and first idle hit, often hits people trying to grab, WD, and even jump lol), WD shield to lure pokes, retreating SH PKF and WD f-tilt (to be a wacky Luigi)

To me the most consistant are RAR bair, PKF and of course the two kinds of Fair. Other ways work when they are expecting other things, such as d-smash when they are expecting fair, f-tilt or grab (CC or attacking to counter), but Ness doesn't really have a solid approach like some of the other guys (thinking of Falco's laser or Fox's nair)

What else do people use?

 

[G13_Flux]

dash grab is good every now and then if ur not predictable with it.

and i find that with characters with good approaches, ness can be excellent with baiting. his djc allows him to shift his momentum quickly ( a retreating fair gives him more range and added priority), and his good WD in conjunction with some disjoint on his smashes helps him punish careless approaches. plus other ranged attacks like pk fire can help set up into other things, which leads into his excellent combo game and allows him to build damage, eventually leading KOs. his good OOS and disjoints help him keep pressure off, so in some cases, it looks like its better to bait and punish, then to always make the first move.

 

[Beorn4200]

Since there is no ness video thread... I will just post this one vid here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Wjad9NeBw&list=UUUBJBYAn3kMvX8289ksJA1w&index=13

I haven't really played ness much at all, but I really like him in 2.5. I'm considering him as a secondary.

Let me know how I could have improved this matchup if you will

I know not to use bat that much... I just have a serious hard on for landing it...

 

[G13_Flux]

i think something that would definitely help you is nair OOS. whenever u shield just try to anticipate it a little bit in advance, and u can get a clean hit on ur opponent that will put them in a worse spot. if u wanna get fancy you can also DJL (double jump land) > dtilt because of how fast it is and cuz of its ability to poke though shields. I would also consider using fair a tad more often as well. it can be a great offensive and defensive tool.

but overall good stuff. i think hes really good in PM as well, and i think he performs pretty well against the space animals compared to most of the cast.

 

[Beorn4200]

i think something that would definitely help you is nair OOS. whenever u shield just try to anticipate it a little bit in advance, and u can get a clean hit on ur opponent that will put them in a worse spot. if u wanna get fancy you can also DJL (double jump land) > dtilt because of how fast it is and cuz of its ability to poke though shields. I would also consider using fair a tad more often as well. it can be a great offensive and defensive tool.

but overall good stuff. i think hes really good in PM as well, and i think he performs pretty well against the space animals compared to most of the cast.

Yeah, I realize fair should be used more in my ness play... It's just so much fun to use other moves now that he doesn't suck. I also need to fair to grab more often. I know it works on most of the cast and catches many people be surprise. Oos nair also sounds quite useful, though I try and be careful when I do anything Oos against fox.

I will probably post more vids later this weekend. (Normally I wouldn't be posting vids of myself, but I realize how much fun it is from me to watch any smash vids. Now I just feel like I should)

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah i agree. ive started recording my matches lately and i look back over them to try and analyze what i could have done better thoughout it. and actually, dair OOS is beast too cuz of how quick it is now. that will also set u up directly for combos. ive been working on a lot OOS stuff recently with characters as ive started to notice how much more useful a lot of them can be (character dependent obviously) when compared to slower shield grabs.

 

[GMaster171]

I'm gonna record a bunch at the monthly this weekend, and if its not made yet, Il make and manage a Ness video thread. (might just do this now, almost every other character has one.)

will be a compilation/critique thread, either one, whatever the person posting the videos wants.


Btw, are there any moves you guys absolutly never use? I find myself using every single attack Ness has (even u-tilt and d-smash) in almost every match, the only ones I sometimes choose not to use are magnet against people with no energy projectiles, or PK flash against people with the better recoveries (peach). I'm curious to see if anyone else uses every move like I do, it feels nice to play a character where every move has a role to play (unlike Ganon's B and u-tilt, or Fox's fair, both of them just have more than a few options that are much better than these, unlike Ness, where every move does a different thing for him)

 

[drsusredfish]

the only move i rarely use is utilt. It's not a bad move i just don't rember to use it given all the other moves. i ussually DJC uair in place of u-tilt.

Anyone else notice PK flash can't touch the ground on flat stages? This is kinda a problem if you start the move and the opponent has a reflector or can absorb. basically You can't easily cancel the move on the ground anymore. Do people like that?

stuff like this can happen since you can't ground cancel the flash
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A0W...ist=PLFM_KPhmUexOT_JyOfLmkfgDYMX6E1Qrm#t=328s

 

[G13_Flux]

well if the character doesnt have a reflector (which most of them dont), then its actually better because it can act like snakes upsmash or ivysaurs down b. if u get hit out of it, then it will still activate and potentially kill them.

 

[GMaster171]

U-tilt is one of those weird ones, it has a decent hit-box above Ness, and juggles at low %s, but it has absolutely no hit-box behind Ness (his jab 1 hits further behind him). What it does have going for it is its juggling, it is a bit faster than DJC uair, and it is much more reliable to get the job done (you have no risk of messing it up really, compared to missing a DJC, which also doesn't happen often, but if you need to be absolutely sure you are gonna hit, uair does what you need). It falls behind in its hit-box, and the fact it has rather late IASA frames compared to most juggle moves. You might be able to string a couple onto itself, but finishing that with a aerial is kinda difficult.

PKflash is very situational. I don't want to judge what you are doing, but I really saw that as a execution error the first time around. The move itself is just too slow to be of good use on stage, even its chasing ability is overshadowed by PKT. as an edge guard, it works, but the move itself is not one you want to go to very often.

Also, am I the only one who already noticed almost every change in the change log? The only ones I didn't know about already were the u-tilt buff, the animation touch-ups, and the increased healing on Magnet. Its nice to know for sure, but not totally helpful rofl.

I love Ness.

@G13_Flux
the activation after hit was removed from the builds, and is not in 2.5. I don't know exactly why, but it never got in.

 

[drsusredfish]

By the way I am Tank. Wasn't my mistake in the video. I got the cool points for the reflect

edit: lost cool points for using cool points.

 

[GMaster171]

Ah ok, srry. Just assumed cause you were posting about it, it happened to you lol. Still, PK flash is a little slow to use onstage, its like using Warlock punch, and getting countered by Marth/Ike. It works where it can, but there's better things to use.

Got 5th at mini tourny yesterday, going even with Melee veterans. I have to say that the Falco match up is probably one of the most fun, just cause of how easily Ness can win. Any mistake anywhere on Falco's part will result in insane damage/off stage/death. Due to magnet, a lot of his approaches are rather open for him. Laser absorb->nair/JC grab is one easy way to ruin Falco's approach.

On the other hand, Ganon is a pain in the ***. I got 5th by running into the same player twice, and losing both times. The combination of Warlock kick, the aerial grab and Ganon's range just seems to shut Ness down. I imagine if it wasn't the first time playing a human Ganon, I could have gotten something to work, but it just was too quick.

Also, is it just me, or do people fail at gimping Ness... of all the times when I overshot the edge, I was only smacked off again by Ganon once. All the rest were missing aerials or spacing, and I got quite a few stocks cause they just couldn't kill me (I was up to 180 against Falco)

Also, expect something useful from me in the next few days, its a surprise

 

[Problem2]

^^^
Ness can live to really high percents if Falco does not know how to edge guard against him properly. Falco's combos into kill moves will stop comboing before Ness is killable on most stages, so it's to Falco's advantage to take you to a stage with close blast zones.

The secret to edgeguarding Ness is to time invincibility from the ledge and jump b-air Ness's PKT2. A few characters have particular moves that out prioritize PKT2 such as T.Link's Aerial Sword Spin, but for the most part, characters will have to try and hit Ness as he is trying to land or ledgegrab -> invincible b-air.

 

[TerraScythe]

Hi guys. Agreed, Ness vs spacies is a good match up for him.

One matchup that I personally find really tough is versus Mario. He's difficult to combo effectively and is able to gimp Ness easily. One saving grace is that an up-smash yoyo hanging off the edge can put off Mario's recovery and bait him into over shooting the edge for a f-smash.

As for U-tilt, find myself using that by accident, though you can use it by going PSI magnet > wavedash > u-tilt. It looks cool too.

D-smash is great! It's great choosing which side you want your opponent to fly off in.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

The secret to edgeguarding Ness is actually playing Ness yourself and sniping his PKT with your own.

True ****.

 

[Attila the Hun]

Ah ok, srry. Just assumed cause you were posting about it, it happened to you lol. Still, PK flash is a little slow to use onstage, its like using Warlock punch, and getting countered by Marth/Ike. It works where it can, but there's better things to use.

Got 5th at mini tourny yesterday, going even with Melee veterans. I have to say that the Falco match up is probably one of the most fun, just cause of how easily Ness can win. Any mistake anywhere on Falco's part will result in insane damage/off stage/death. Due to magnet, a lot of his approaches are rather open for him. Laser absorb->nair/JC grab is one easy way to ruin Falco's approach.

On the other hand, Ganon is a pain in the ***. I got 5th by running into the same player twice, and losing both times. The combination of Warlock kick, the aerial grab and Ganon's range just seems to shut Ness down. I imagine if it wasn't the first time playing a human Ganon, I could have gotten something to work, but it just was too quick.

Also, is it just me, or do people fail at gimping Ness... of all the times when I overshot the edge, I was only smacked off again by Ganon once. All the rest were missing aerials or spacing, and I got quite a few stocks cause they just couldn't kill me (I was up to 180 against Falco)

Also, expect something useful from me in the next few days, its a surprise

There were only two Melee veterans at that tourney (Lambnadr and billybgood). The rest of us play Bawrrrrllllll. xD

 

[GMaster171]

Maybe I'm just bad, but the opinions above really reflect Ness in general more than anything. (plus those two Falcos I completely shut out, feel bad for 4-stocking lol). Ness does do bad against high range characters as his only reliable approach (fair) is even beaten, and Ganon is no different. Shoot me for making educated guesses, but this is just how I see it going, at almost any level of play.

and failing at gimping Ness is still funny, Brawl players or not . Spacing and hitting easy targets should really come naturally in any of the three games lol.

 

[Attila the Hun]

Maybe I'm just bad, but the opinions above really reflect Ness in general more than anything. (plus those two Falcos I completely shut out, feel bad for 4-stocking lol). Ness does do bad against high range characters as his only reliable approach (fair) is even beaten, and Ganon is no different. Shoot me for making educated guesses, but this is just how I see it going, at almost any level of play.

and failing at gimping Ness is still funny, Brawl players or not . Spacing and hitting easy targets should really come naturally in any of the three games lol.

A lot of us are just starting out with this game on version 2.5b. When you say, "going even with the Melee veterans", I'm saying you didn't play any Melee veterans. You either played Brawl players who were just trying out the game, or good Brawl players who can just troll around based on being familiar with the tourney scene in the other game. That Ganon is ranked third on our Brawl PR's, so he just kinda does goofy tech chase stuff and rams Wiz Kick down people's faces. xD

 

[GMaster171]

K, I understand. I did go a little far in what I said lol. Hope more people around here actually try it seriously, then I may be able to say that fully truthfully.

Srry if I sounded like I was showing off, I'm a strange guy lol.

also, unless the storm kicks us off, I'll be streaming some of my Ness tomorrow, for those who care.

 

[Attila the Hun]

K, I understand. I did go a little far in what I said lol. Hope more people around here actually try it seriously, then I may be able to say that fully truthfully.

Srry if I sounded like I was showing off, I'm a strange guy lol.

also, unless the storm kicks us off, I'll be streaming some of my Ness tomorrow, for those who care.

I realized I sounded kinda ****ish, too.

A lot of us are taking it seriously now, that Ganon you played, me, and at least 5 others. Also I might watch that stream, we'll see.

 

[Raziek]

Yeah, Attila pretty much nailed it.

I'm the Ganon, and I essentially have no melee tech-skill, so I just play by reads and/or setups, that's why I play Ganon and Snake in P:M.

Haven't yet been into the lab to actually learn to consistently perform melee tech like wavelands, etc etc.

We do appreciate you coming out of course, I think P:M will pick up pretty well!

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

^^^
Ness can live to really high percents if Falco does not know how to edge guard against him properly. Falco's combos into kill moves will stop comboing before Ness is killable on most stages, so it's to Falco's advantage to take you to a stage with close blast zones.

The secret to edgeguarding Ness is to time invincibility from the ledge and jump b-air Ness's PKT2. A few characters have particular moves that out prioritize PKT2 such as T.Link's Aerial Sword Spin, but for the most part, characters will have to try and hit Ness as he is trying to land or ledgegrab -> invincible b-air.

Ness edgeguards are super free. Jump off ledge into PKT1->Recover to stage->chuckle as Ness falls to his doom. Replace jumping into PKT1 with intercepting PKT1 with a projectile if your character has one. Really any time Ness uses PKT at all unless the opponent is really out of position is an opportunity for the opponent to attack.

 

[Ganreizu]

Ness edgeguards are super free. Jump off ledge into PKT1->Recover to stage->chuckle as Ness falls to his doom. Replace jumping into PKT1 with intercepting PKT1 with a projectile if your character has one. Really any time Ness uses PKT at all unless the opponent is really out of position is an opportunity for the opponent to attack.

The worst part of PKT2 in P:M is that it is so hard to sweetspot the ledge to avoid disjointed hitbox attacks or attacks that have more priority in general. There's only like 3 angles that you can get it at. It does have really strange properties which make it harder to edgeguard because it's faster and stronger than it ever has been on top of protection from PKTB occasionally.

Once ness gets back on the stage though he is free to abuse his aerial game which is insane. I've been trying to mix-up shine aura into my game but it's weird. I find the best use is when you do full jump aerial and then use it on the way down to cancel into a DJC or a full jump aerial for safety. I've gotten a few combo strings off the shine aura (SA -> rising fair -> dair -> dsmash (which is nasty as a surprise)) All of his aerials are great though with the option of a full second jump with moving hitboxes that can activate at any point in the jump. I never usually DJC dair and instead full jump because i can come down with a fast falled pk fire often before my opponent can react to the aerial barrage. It's completely safe on shield but real hard to follow up if you get a hit unless they're at a high percent (100+ ish).

 

[SinisterB]

I don't really think sweetspotting is all that tough, he actually has lots of angles he can hit it from. Almost completely horizontal or vertical in a lot of cases. I also don't think hopping into PKT2 is free anymore considering the distance covered and minimal endlag behind such a powerful move, it's just got a bad wrap because of it's history. Bad on paper okay in practice. Combined with DJ it isn't too difficult to stuff people with FAir or Magnet (stall) turn-around BAir, you make it sound as if Ness will always be stuck offstage with his huge DJ eaten. That being said I don't deny the fact it's rather linear and it kind of sucks how few mix ups it comes with other than changing the timing & angles and such. Although there's a lot one can do with DJ + PKT2/AD.

Perfectly viable.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5opgZdmCt9s

@SinisterB: Does the up-throw chain-grab still work on Spacies? If so, for what percents?

 

[GMaster171]

Yes, 0-60. Note however that uair string goes from 40-80. use both to get 0-deaths on spacies if you manage a grab.

 

[SinisterB]

Gonna be streaming in a little bit if anyone's interested at http://www.twitch.tv/play_for_keeps/

i'll be there in about 30-45

 

[Bryonato]

I couldn't find you in any of the broadcast history.

 

[SinisterB]

Ya we started super late but there's a bunch of footage on there

money matches all night

 

[Bryonato]

yeah i was there in the chat for the later stream

 

[SinisterB]

yup just letting people know

thx for coming by and chillin'

 

[Bryonato]

np. thx for showing off your ness aha

 

[GMaster171]

Can anyone think of a sound in Brawl that sounds like or similar to the sounds Ness made when he jumped or DJed in smash 64?

Those sounds were the best, but Idk how to get them... And I haven't been able find one yet.

 

[Squirrely]

I've never heard of this before but apparently you can powershield/reflect Ness's PK Flash?
Was standing slightly above and behind Ness on a low FoD plat and the flash exploded just in front of Ness.
It did about 13% damage.
Eyebrow was raised.

 

[GMaster171]

yup, powershielded reflected and absorbed... its the same as any other projectile, just it can't be bounced. Someone earlier had a video of Ness dittos where one reflected the other's PK flash with the bat and killed him.

 

[Squirrely]

Alright, I get that powershielding is possible if a bit weird and unlikely due to the nature of not knowing when impact might occur.

The other thing that puzzled me is why did this only do 13% damage?
This was a fully charged PK Flash that was reflected.
Is powershield damage less than original projectile damage? That doesn't sound right.

 

[GMaster171]

From what I'v seen, PS seems to reduce damage (PSed Falco's Lasers did only 1-2% last time I saw)

 

[GMaster171]

Stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL-nSZSoCsQ&feature=youtu.be
http://youtu.be/JvM9ihZ2NaE
second one still uploading. Will probably remove effects in full video, was just playing around with the editing software.