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TheZeroSuit said:from Orion's:
CyanCyde said:Marth can be a tough matchup, especially if he's aggressive with his side-B. The best counter that I've found has either been a down-B to try to go over his head or dodgerolling. If you time the dodgeroll right, you should get a Ftilt or a Dtilt to pop him up for aerial shenanigans.k4polo said:My suggestion is to keep him ranged with Side B. Punish when necessary and take the defensive approach. If you go all out offense, you will get destroyed. Do what ever it take to get him in the air. From below, Marth doesn't have much and ZSS has alot when Marth is in the air. (Combo pillaring). Marth may air dodge before you can combo so that when you do mind games to combo Marth. (i.e. expect him to air dodge and DI then combo pillaring when you see an opening)
WATCH the tip of his blade.
If you do not watch it, you will get destroyed. You will last alot longer if you dodge the tip of his blade.You may have to slightly move toward him and take a hit close up just to avoid the tip in some situations. Keep out of his range at the tip of his attack and out range him.Use Side B smartly.
Don't use it up close too much as that is Marth's best attacks up close.Use it as long range defensive attack(Side B). Preferably, do that attack in a manner that is unpunishable and long range. Same with the throw. Be careful with it and do it at a range or when he whiffs maybe a f smash. Also be prepared to handle the SH Fairs with Marth.
Also WATCH the tip of his blade.Snakeee said:Marth has no projectile so it is safe to do retreating paralyzer shots and either force him to make an approach and punish it, or get a shot in and get him with a dash attack-uptilt-etc.
- You have more range than Marth so use that to your advantage mostly with the forward B.
-Learn to predict his f-smashes when you're at high percent, powershield them, and go in for a dash attack combo.
- You really don't want to get in too close unless you're almost sure you're going to get a hit in. Marth can destroy you around the forward B's blind spot area, and I especially hate the forward B there.
-Be extra cautious using grabs against Marth especially at high percents because you'll eat a tipper f-smash
Camp him until you create an opening with both retreating forward-Bs and paralyzer shots. You don't want him to get in close to you. Once you get a hit in, or at least have him shield at pretty close range, you should mostly just try to get him in the air. Once you do that, he is easily juggled. Use Forward B off the stage usually for edgeguarding. If he comes in from below, you can time a D-smash to hit him under the stage and stage spike him by running off and B-airing him.I'm a little late, but hey, let's keep it rollin'.Bouse said:try to figure out EXACTLY where his counter hits. Then just stay out of it's attack range and just use your F-aerial. It eats the counter and you hit him with the stronger attack. Also, timing your Down+B to fake him out can mess with him pretty decently. I know his counter lasts as my friend refers to it "the lunar cycle", but once you eat up his counter he's proper ****ed.
You can't hit him with the stronger attack but you can still eat his counter and miss the attack arc, it still gives you an opening to nail him in the face though.
Why is that? I still have the most trouble with him, more than any other high/top tier (excluding the obvious Falco). The gap in survivability is just way too large for it to be an even match.I take back my standpoint on the Snake match up. I think it's at least even for ZSS now.
O snaps! Please, i would love to see what comes out of that discussion. I personally agree that it is probably close. Metaknight and snake aren't actually giving me as much trouble lately. For now it doesn't seem like the Marth discussion is going anywhere anyway. It seems universally agreed that it is slight or no advantage for either side.gaawwdaaayum I'm burnt out on writing match-up stuff. lol.
btw, I toss my vote in for metaknight next, the "OMG BAN MK" discussion has died enough that we can seriously talk about this match-up(and how it's 50:50, OH SHI- I said it) d;
I love battlefield against Marth, and Lylat, and FD. Actually I don't particularly like Smashville in that match up. Delphino would be my least favorite here.O snaps! Please, i would love to see what comes out of that discussion. I personally agree that it is probably close. Metaknight and snake aren't actually giving me as much trouble lately. For now it doesn't seem like the Marth discussion is going anywhere anyway. It seems universally agreed that it is slight or no advantage for either side.
Anyway, back to Marth. I would avoid stages like battlefield and lylat on this matchup because the platforms make it easier for him to get solid hits on you. I would pick FD or smashville.
Well ZSS and Marth are both excellent on Battlefield. The victor will probably be the one who is able to keep the opponent in their proffered range. I hate delfino in any match up. I also hate Yoshi's Island (brawl) for some strange reason.I love battlefield against Marth, and Lylat, and FD. Actually I don't particularly like Smashville in that match up. Delphino would be my least favorite here.
Btw, I really feel the need to stress that Snake is an at least even match up, maybe even ZSS' advantage. The main advantage for Snake is the difference in the percent that they can kill each other, but ZSS' edgeguarding on Snake almost makes up for that anyway.
you seem to forget Snake's insane ability to control the stage and area around him. Also his insane ability to punish. Plus, the gap in survivability is still significant, even with the great edgeguarding abilities of ZSS.Btw, I really feel the need to stress that Snake is an at least even match up, maybe even ZSS' advantage. The main advantage for Snake is the difference in the percent that they can kill each other, but ZSS' edgeguarding on Snake almost makes up for that anyway.
Yeah that was me... we needed to move the discussion along.ty again to anyone that worked on OP in my absence (I think it was mainly Adapt, ty ty).
Raaaandom much.why do people hate yoshi's?
For ZSS it sorta ****s up the suit pieces in general. Besides that...nothing really. The platform might get annoying at times, but not really.Oh sorry i meant the stage.
I don't know. I just hate it with a passion. It is my least favorite neutral.Oh sorry i meant the stage.
All right EL is back, and just in time to debate the Marth match up.You all seem to be doing well.
How not? If you hit the shield and start backing off, the range of our tether will grab you as you land, you can't airdodge directly into spotdodge. You'll get grabbed.And what shield grabs do you speak of? You do not get any guaranteed shield grab off a spaced fair.
I dunno what Marth can kill with besides smashes (which shouldn't be in tipper range) and tippered n-airs. ZSS should be killing with b-air, d-smash->b-air, and down-b kick (as a recovery punishment). Plus normal edgeguarding. Side-B is strictly for revenge kills. There's also a good chance for high screen u-airs, since Marth isn't that great at coming down on ZSS.What does ZSS kill with that is better then Marth's other then side b which she must use alot to keep him out?
I don't think this is true unless he connects with a tipper f-smash. ZSS' edgeguarding is a bit better than Marth's in general and in the match up. Her chances of hitting him off the stage are about the same, but ZSS has a much easier time getting back onto the stage than Marth does...or rather ZSS is one of the best and most annoying characters while on the ledge and can camp it very well until she creates an opening.Faded, Marth will kill us at lower percents than we will kill him
I'll get to all that eventually, but I'm not good with analyzing it as a whole. It's better if someone like you starts talking about something specific, and then I give my input on it. (which is already working out considering I wasn't giving much thought on this until you came in )Get your anecdotal garbage out of here.
Seriously though that proves nothing.
Break down the match-up. Piece by piece.
Ground game, killing ability, out of shield options, pressure game.
The whole ****ing nine yards.