Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[NickRiddle]

Pit has ending lag.
Normal shield > punish is a combo vs. like... every kill move he has.

 

[Rybaia]

I was referring to our own downB. It's only an excellent recovery move when people don't know how to deal with it. Once you know how ZSS works, her recovery is so slow and unsafe you can punish all of it on reaction timing.

I heard this in 2009 in the italian smash forum..
Still only 3 times they gimped me...
ZSS recovery is not that bad. Brawl gravity helps alot btw.

The main issues that ZSS suffers through in this matchup, as in all matchups that she loses

Like every char when he suffers in a match up.

I'll say 50:50.
I've faced just a few Pit mains but they are not very good..
So I'll shut up and learn.

 

[solecalibur]

The main issues that ZSS suffers through in this matchup, as in all matchups that she loses, is that if your opponent knows how to powershield your attacks you have nothing that's safe on his shield, and he has an easy time gimping your recovery.

Literally everything this character does has startup time, including aerials if you count the fact that her shorthop places her out of range until she starts to come back down.

I think you haven't been vsing good zss' if you truly think that

when people don't know how to deal with it.

The MU is when both players know the MU and are walking into a match

I was referring to our own downB.

Gravity , only got gimped by pit's sheild once and that was when I played wario , Its to easy to see it coming you can move around it or attack em

 

[fkacyan]

Pit has ending lag.
Normal shield > punish is a combo vs. like... every kill move he has.

All Pit has to do is continue dealing damage until the safe moves are kill moves, then.

 

[NickRiddle]

All Pit has to do is continue dealing damage until the safe moves are kill moves, then.

So... he's gonna hit you to 200 before you kill him?
How does Pit get around our non d-smash/side-b moves? They're still pretty good.

 

[fkacyan]

I think you haven't been vsing good zss' if you truly think that

The MU is when both players know the MU and are walking into a match

I think I used to play the character and dropped her because she is awful when people know the matchup.

Just ask Snakeee, iirc the last time he played my regular practice partner (orion*) he got 2-0d pretty handily.

So... he's gonna hit you to 200 before you kill him?
How does Pit get around our non d-smash/side-b moves? They're still pretty good.

I honestly cannot think of a move that is safe on his shield, honestly.

And yes, that is exactly what a good, patient player would do if his other, earlier kill moves are garbage on normal shield.

 

[NickRiddle]

Everybody in FL is bad against ZSS I guess.

 

[fkacyan]

Everybody in FL is bad against ZSS I guess.

NICE WAY TO USE POST 3k NICK.

Maybe they are, rofl. I dunno. I've never seen you play.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

just won a mm vs europes best pit with falco. could beat him with zero too, but had some more trouble. then again, my zss is quite bad when compared to my falco. 50:50 imo.

 

[Zero]

anecdotal evidence is not proof

/xonarmatchupdiscussion

 

[fkacyan]

anecdotal evidence is not proof

/xonarmatchupdiscussion

It's worse than anecdotal. He didn't even play the serious match with the character we're discussing here.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

i honestly played enough matches with this player to have a feel about the mu. i dont even care at this point if you guys care about my rating, but as far as i know the mu, its even. we can shieldgrab all of pits aerials, just look at the new (completed) frame data thread the pit boards have.

 

[fkacyan]

i honestly played enough matches with this player to have a feel about the mu. i dont even care at this point if you guys care about my rating, but as far as i know the mu, its even. we can shieldgrab all of pits aerials, just look at the new (completed) frame data thread the pit boards have.

Why is Pit using aerials on your shield? He has far better options, especially if they're so laggy that this character can shieldgrab him for it.

 

[Zero]

I'm not exactly sure, but I'd be confident in saying that we could shieldgrab any of Pit's normals. This is actually pretty good for us, since it completely limits Pit's options to sitting on the edge and spamming arrows. Which we can deal with effectively with dtilt/dsmash/side B/whatever.

 

[fkacyan]

I'm not exactly sure, but I'd be confident in saying that we could shieldgrab any of Pit's normals. This is actually pretty good for us, since it completely limits Pit's options to sitting on the edge and spamming arrows. Which we can deal with effectively with dtilt/dsmash/side B/whatever.

If Pit was so bad that ZSS, of all characters, could shieldgrab all of his moves, I doubt he'd even be considered a viable character.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Fact is that pit cant land at all against zero

 

[Rybaia]

If Pit was so bad that ZSS, of all characters, could shieldgrab all of his moves, I doubt he'd even be considered a viable character.

*coff* Ankoku's thread *coff*
*coff* The tier list *coff* is ****ed up *coff*

 

[fkacyan]

Fact is that pit cant land at all against zero

Why is Pit jumping? Jumping is almost universally the worst option you can use against a grounded character if you're not MK.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

... pretty much of zero's main moves hit upward, lol.

 

[fkacyan]

... pretty much of zero's main moves hit upward, lol.

Pretty much all of ZSS's moves are awful for approaching, which is what we have to do against a character with good projectiles.

All the situations that you say cause ZSS to win this matchup shouldn't be happening against anybody who knows how to fight ZSS. All of her moves can be PSd, shieldgrabbed or spotdodged with human reaction time by a lot of the cast, Pit included.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You say that human reaction time is 6frames (dtilt)? or 3 (utilt)?
there's also baiting etc.
we CAN approach pit (we can walking PS the arrows or even just walk > jab > walk > jab etc).

All the situations that I say? you mean hitting the opponent?

 

[solecalibur]

If your just gonna sulk how "bad" our character is ganon boards is ----)
Some people want to discuss the pit MU and not just say everything can be powersheilded

 

[fkacyan]

If your just gonna sulk how "bad" our character is ganon boards is ----)
Some people want to discuss the pit MU and not just say everything can be powersheilded

Against some characters it doesn't matter. Against Pit, he's fast enough that the fact that our moves have enormous lag on shield can really benefit him.

 

[Nefarious B]

Our moves don't have enormous lag on shield. It's really just side b, and maybe nair.

 

[fkacyan]

Our moves don't have enormous lag on shield. It's really just side b, and maybe nair.

You can punish dsmash, usmash, utilt, ftilt with pretty much every character OOS. Some characters with fast attacks can punish dtilt. Jab is harder to punish if you mix up doing it once or twice but jab also doesn't really lead into anything except running away or getting hit for using the attack.

The issue with the majority of the fast moves is that they all require that you be extremely close to the opponent, or right within Pit's range. Getting him up into the air is extremely difficult, especially considering he can upB OOS in either direction to change the direction you're pressuring him in, if you are at all.

The issue with our pressure is that it leads to almost nothing. All of our good shieldpoke moves have startup times. An enemy hiding in their shield can be assured that, unless they fall asleep at the controller, they won't be getting grabbed out of most of ZSS's setups because of the disgusting start time of her grab.

Against some characters these issues aren't really that prevalent because we can force an approach early and we have some really, really good projectile setups with armor pieces. But against characters who can easily fend off projectiles and then continue to camp us back with their own, in addition to having fast and powerful close range moves, this character doesn't do very well.

These are my impressions of the matchup based on my knowledge of both characters and having got many chances to play decent to good Pits (The best of whom being Rogue Pit, when he still played). I know a lot of people probably disagree with me, but that's something I've come to expect with this subforum.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lol, no one except characters with 5-frame moves can punish dsmash on shield.

Also, lol at attempting to downplay the credibility of those who disagree with you. Who do you think you are, anyway? You're not good (neither am I, just sayin') and you don't contribute anything but "ZSS sux" repeatedly.

Several months ago you claimed ZSS lost to King Dedede for Christ's sakes, one of our easiest high tier matchups and one that is probably terrible for Dedede at the highest level of play.

Ironically I'm even agreeing with you in this thread, Pit beats ZSS at least 6/4 IMO, but you're so badly terribly wrong about most things I don't even know why you still bother to post here unless you're trolling.

 

[fkacyan]

lol, no one except characters with 5-frame moves can punish dsmash on shield.

5-frame moves aren't terribly uncommon, and I think you're forgetting shieldlag, but this is minor and honestly dtilt isn't a move I think one would use often in this matchup anyways.

Also, lol at attempting to downplay the credibility of those who disagree with you. Who do you think you are, anyway? You're not good (neither am I, just sayin') and you don't contribute anything but "ZSS sux" repeatedly.

I never downplayed the credibility of anybody. I did say I've never seen Nickriddle play, which I haven't until now when I've watched a few of his matches in the vids thread. As far as who I am, meh, I've done reasonably well in sets against well-ranked players and the only random I've lost to was at the last tourney I ran.

Several months ago you claimed ZSS lost to King Dedede for Christ's sakes, one of our easiest high tier matchups and one that is probably terrible for Dedede at the highest level of play.

I don't recall ever pushing that point (Maybe I did? I don't know), but I definitely disagree that it gets worse for D3 at higher levels of play. This is a discussion for another time, though, but I will say proving that particular matchup ratio is one of the reasons I'm picking up D3.

I'm not going to respond directly to the last part because it is clearly flamebait, but eh.

 

[Adapt]

5-frame moves aren't terribly uncommon, and I think you're forgetting shieldlag, but this is minor and honestly dtilt isn't a move I think one would use often in this matchup anyways.

Here is the frame data on d-smash:

D-smash Raw Data:
Entire Length: 48
Start Up (Before Charge): 16
Charge Release: 5 (that's a good number)
Hitbox Out: 21
Hitbox End: 26
IASA: 36
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 11/11
Direction: 46/46
KBG: 32/32
BKB: 28/28
Advantage: -5
Shield Drop Advantage: 1 (that's an amazing number)

What moves can punish a properly spaced D-Smash? I'd like to know.

Also, dtilt is our best ground move, why not use it

 

[fkacyan]

Here is the frame data on d-smash:

D-smash Raw Data:
Entire Length: 48
Start Up (Before Charge): 16
Charge Release: 5 (that's a good number)
Hitbox Out: 21
Hitbox End: 26
IASA: 36
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 11/11
Direction: 46/46
KBG: 32/32
BKB: 28/28
Advantage: -5
Shield Drop Advantage: 1 (that's an amazing number)

What moves can punish a properly spaced D-Smash? I'd like to know.

Also, dtilt is our best ground move, why not use it

Because more often than not you're not in a good position to use dtilt against Pit. If you are, then you use it, but in my experience it's not something that you're generally spaced properly to use in the Pit matchup. Watching NickRiddle's recent matches against R@vyn, he lands all of four or five dtilts over the course of the set. He's punished equally often, and in some cases actually punished for attempting to follow up. Only twice does the dtilt lead to anything (One time he jabs out of it, so I'm not really sure I can classify that as a follow up because the third hit gets PSd). Many of the punishes Nick gets as a result of dtilt is because the safe spacing is fairly obvious, it gets called with a roll behind as he uses it, and the Pit proceeds to do whatever. Now, NickRiddle isn't a bad player by any stretch of the imagination, so I'm going to go with the problem being the move and not him.

Also, 16 frame startup? If you perfectly space it, that's safe against some characters, I guess. Then 10 frames after the hitbox... There are plenty of OOS moves that can hit her in these time periods. You can't assume based on perfect spacing, either. That's not somehting you can ever guarantee during a match. not saying you should assume awful spacing, however.

I admit, I haven't looked at all of ZSS's frame data - I've only really looked at her airdodge in any depth in order to better utilize it in order to regain control of her armor pieces if I lose it, but 16 frames is well within the human ability to react and punish before the hitbox comes out, or at least trade hits.

 

[Nefarious B]

The most important numbers are the advantage on shield and shield drop, and those both show that you're very good to go against almost all OOS options. Shuttle loop, dolphin slash, mario's up b, and maybe bowsers too are the only moves that I can really think of that are OOS on frame 5 that would be useful punishers. If you space at the end of it's range you won't get hit by any of these moves. If they attempt to punish with shield drop we have a guaranteed jab at the very least, depending on what move they try and use we have better options. For example, if you dsmash a Snake's shield and he tries to shield drop and ftilt (a common reaction) we have a guaranteed utilt, maybe dtilt (im not sure how this clashes with ftilt).

In Pit's case, his fastest OOS options would be his nair (7 frames total i think if you count in jump?) and grab (6 frames?). I'm not sure on the info of his roll though, but in this matchup his rolls are one of his best OOS options.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Heh, I guess me looking around these boards for some ZSS tips came in handy in finding this place.

Okay, let's get started from my view (inb4wifibashers).


-Range/Priority:
Zamus easily takes this section with her Side-B alone, and her B-air can do the same, showing even Pit's F-air, troubling priority. She gots other moves with plenty of range and that's what will help her a lot.

-Weight/Power:
Let's keep it simple. ZSS is much lighter, but is stronger than Pit when it comes to KO power. Pit should be thankful her light weight helps him KO just a bit better, especially with the B-air sweetspot.

-Speed
Err... I don't need to discuss who wins this.

-Camping
Well, this can be tough at times. Pit, being one of the better campers in the game, and his arrows have the range advantage, but ZSS is fast and therefore can close in to Pit quickly. Pit does have those 2 reflectors, so be careful when using Armor pieces or the Neutral B, though your long-ranged attacks can pierce through.

Speaking of Armor Pieces, you know bout being able to glidetoss with your armor pieces, and all. Pit's Glidetoss is pretty much a lengthy one, like the length of 2 FD diamonds. It can be used to approach you quickly, or get away from you. Of course, watch out for the reflectors, and try to get behind him if you're holding one of the pieces, or even grab him if you aren't.


-Edgeguaring/Gimping

For ZSS to Pit, the difficulty is kinda decent, not too hard, or too easy. Now, Pit has a good amount of recovery options from gliding under the stage (if the stage permits it), to recovering high up, and even attacking while he's recovering via arrows (or aerials if you're going after him). Your Side-B can be quite useful here especially when timing it against a gliding Pit, who is unable to airdodge.
If the Pit is on the ledge, it shouldn't be completely hard to knock him out with the hitbox of a timed Dsmash to paralyze him, then you can finish him, or even get back and time a Side-B. Pit can do the following while on the ledge:

-Pretty much any aerial onto the stage (D-air and U-air are very hard to do without landing lag when getting onto the stage). F-air and B-air may be more common, then N-air outta the moves.
-Arrows, both regular anr Pivot arrows
-Angel Ring, and Mirror Shield
-A basic airdodge

With your range, it shouldn't be too hard, maybe just a bit if the Pit knows what he's doing, but generally you'd have it easier than the Pit trying to get back on the stage.


Now Pit to ZSS, it is kinda hard too, from your ability to airdodge, Side-B (as a tether recovery), Down-B, and all. A smart, or at least experienced Pit should move back away from your Down-B hitbox if you use it, and for common sense, Pit should try to edgehog you. Of course, it's easier said than done.




As for stages, I don't know anything except know that Pit hates YI. Long story short, less recovery options, and shy guys mess up his arrows.
I am curious what stages, besides Frigate, ZSS hates.

For the general of the matchup, I don't wanna assume anything since well, because of how easily I coulda been bashed. Though, use your speed and try to pressure the Pit, while watching out for some of his sneaky defensive tactics. Also, Pit is kinda weak and more vulnerable when he's above his opponents, so when you get him above you, put that spammable U-air of yours to good use.

As for the ratio, (I don't trust many ratios), I kinda consider it 50:50 even. Both characters have to be careful not to make mistakes, and I feel that the Pit needs to work harder in the matchup considering how he will be against Speed/Pressure + Being out-ranged/outprioritized, and therefore can't camp as efficiently as he could against some other characters.

I hope this helps, even if I am stuck being an online Pit (I don't have control over it) *shrugs*

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

SHIELDGRAB EVERYTHING

hold a to beat arrows

matchup completed, what up admiral

 

[solecalibur]

There gonna angle the arrows if you hold A after so many times and I think this MU is pretty much done for how lazy we are anyways

 

[Admiral Pit]

Well, I tried my best to give you guys some info, huh? If you have some questions bout Pit, let me know, and I'll try to answer em from my perspective (You can contact me via AIM, PM, or whatever else you have to do). Though I'm stuck to be an online Pit for like 2 years now, it's better than nothing, right? Again, I am glad I was able to help out.

 

[solecalibur]

Well, I tried my best to give you guys some info, huh? If you have some questions bout Pit, let me know, and I'll try to answer em from my perspective (You can contact me via AIM, PM, or whatever else you have to do). Though I'm stuck to be an online Pit for like 2 years now, it's better than nothing, right? Again, I am glad I was able to help out.

Thx for the contribution and get off your wifi and get on some offlines! >.< Ive heard scary things about your pit

 

[ph00tbag]

-Speed
Err... I don't need to discuss who wins this.

Isn't his glide faster than ZSS? I mean, I know it's situational, but it gives him an extra option for airspeed.

 

[noradseven]

Fighting Pit is a gay fight, . I think its slight Pit advantage he beats us on the stage, forces us to approach...has swords. But once we get him off he is in trouble.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Pit is one of the most annoying MUs for Zammy to me.

I can pretty much agree with majority that Admiral Pit said though, aside from the fact that ZSS hates Frigate. That's one of the few stages that I use as a primary counterpick as ZSS, but that's just me. The stage physics work against her somewhat , but I've found it to be one of her better counterpicks if you actually know how to manage on it.

The only real problem with this match-up is Pit's ability to keep ZSS at a fair distance. ZSS has to space things almost perfectly or she'll end up eating a smash attack at close range or arrow shenanigans while too far away.

50:50 seems about right to me though, or possibly 55:45 in ZSS's favor, primarily because of her offstage advantage. Punishing Pits recovery via side+b, Bair or even Nair {which is actually decent against Pit's recovery} isn't really difficult at all.

 

[solecalibur]

We currently have
-Ganon
-Captain Falcon
-Yoshi
-Lucas
-The inferior Blond
-Fox
-Wolf
-Samus
-Jiggs
-Link
To discuss and votes?
If we want..

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I want to do Link and Samus because it's going to be fun trying to argue that I think those match-ups are 50:50.