Official "Who is going to return?" topic

[Wrath`]

what did i miss.

so, just a music update

 

[Bowserlick]

Well, if everyone in the game was overly imbalanced to the point that they're all broken, wouldn't that make the game... kinda balanced?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my logic if you throw everyone up to God Tier, that would mean the same as throwing everyone into Middle Tier or even GodAWFUL Tier? (Though playing a game where everyone's GodAWFUL would make it a bad game. But you get my point.)
<_<

Yes, but it would take the fun out of the game. If characters had instant combos, one hit finishers, and moves with no lag it would take the skill and art out of the game. People enjoy linking combos by themselves and discovering new strategies for characters. Otherwise it is just a race to get off the broken move first. And that is no good.

Here are characters that I think are very well balanced in Melee: Mario (Dr. Mario), Link (Y. Link), Jiggs, Samus, Gannondorf

Runners Up: DK (a little below par but close to balance) CF (a little too strong with attacks like the knee but fairly close to balance)

 

[GenG]

CF (a little too strong with attacks like the knee but fairly close to balance)

Falcon has very good moves but it's easy to combo and has one of the most predictable and unsafe recovery moves in the game to balance that.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

I'd say the most balanced characters would be:

Mario (Doctor Mario)
Link (Young Link)
Pikachu
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Samus
Ganondorf
DK

 

[dynamic_entry]

I think Nintendo should allow Mewtwo to unlock that potential, since he never got to use it in Melee. Some characters, like Samus, were balanced fairly well from Smash64 to Melee. I'm sure that Nintendo realizes what was done wrong last time with balancing, and will make the correct changes this time around.

i agree. mewtwo is a rocking pokemon, and the original kick arse legendary. he deserves to be in brawl, and he deserves to be better than he was in melee.

 

[Air Jordan]

i dont mind pichu leaving, but i really want falco to come back.

 

[the grim lizard]

Teh Captain with a better recovery (maybe like Dorf's...his was pretty awesome) and his awesome knee (KiFed!!!)

And Falco, with or without a new moveset...SHL and SHdair pwn...

 

[Rhyme]

Well, if everyone in the game was overly imbalanced to the point that they're all broken, wouldn't that make the game... kinda balanced?

Yes, but it would take the fun out of the game. If characters had instant combos, one hit finishers, and moves with no lag it would take the skill and art out of the game. People enjoy linking combos by themselves and discovering new strategies for characters. Otherwise it is just a race to get off the broken move first. And that is no good.

I think that answers your question very accurately, but I'll say it again. While a game full of broken characters would balance the game, it's much more fun to have a game full of characters who work the way they were designed to, all of which are fairly equal.

I'd say that the following characters are balanced IMO:

Mario, *Jiggs, *Samus, Falcon, Gannon, *Peach, Pikachu, Luigi, Yoshi, *DK, *Ness, Link, Y. Link, *G&W, *Doc

Stars indicate a small change which could be made to balance the character. Jiggs: pound gives her far too good of a recovery, if it worked like an average of it's Smash64 and Melee capabilities, Jiggs would be much better. Samus: fix rising grapple glitch. Peach: lessen the obnoxiousness of the Dsmash. DK: slightly increased grab range. Ness: more grab range. G&W: make him a bit heavier. Doc: Bair had too much knockback and inconvenient trajectory. That's my balancing solutions, feel free to suggest your own.

Later<

 

[Bowserlick]

Ness also needs his old recovery length. Since his Up B is more difficult then normal Up B's to pull off, it should be rewarded with high damage and high recovery.

Your balance list is pretty good. I did not include Pikachu, but he is fairly balanced. Same with Luigi.

Peach needs more changes then just her Down A. I think she was given to many KO oppurtunities. I see her as a heavier light character with great recovery options and a decent projectile. But some of her attacks just have too much power for a "weak" character.

And G&W needs more upgrades I think to really be balanced. He is light, laggy, and has the worst shield in the game. What a combination.

 

[Rhyme]

I suppose that Ness could use more recovery distance, as long as his grabs aren't also upgraded, just his grab range. Upgrading him too much would replace his former glory.

Lesse...Peach has Dsmash, FCFair, Fthrow, turnips killing recovery. Assuming I didn't forget anything critical, that doesn't seem like an overwhelimg list of killing moves. Making the Dsmash a bit weaker couldn't hurt, maybe angling the knockback of her Fair upwards would make it a bit harder to kill with assuming your opponent can use proper DI. The Fthrow isn't so bad if you can DI it, I've survived Fthrows from Peach on Dreamland as high as 170 percent with Samus, but even Fox could survive 110 (which is no less than Marth's fast tipper/Fsmash). Her turnips aren't so unfair; they couldn't travel much slower, and she can only hit below the level with them. If their priority were lowered slightly that might help. Other than that, I suppose you could make Peach a tad lighter, but taking away from too many of her positive attributes will just dump her in bottom tier a la Kirby, and nobody wants that. Having several killing moves is a bit better than having arguably one killing move (Mario and his Fsmash), though not by much.

I actually don't play G&W so I wasn't aware of his shield problem, but his CCing is insane so he can avoid being tossed helplessly into the air. I mostly see G&W played like Bowser - plenty of SHFFLed ariels - which makes his lag a bit less of a problem than some people think. To be honest, I don't have a complete understanding of the character's metagame, so it's kinda hard for me to suggest upgrades.

 

[dynamic_entry]

give falco multi jumps + a rocket launcher (from assault i think) and i'll be anybody's!

 

[Devastlian]

give falco multi jumps + a rocket launcher (from assault i think) and i'll be anybody's!

Give up his SSBM down aerial, reflector, and blaster and you've got a deal.

 

[maton1200]

marth, roy, pichu and G&W won't return, i'm sure 100%, the rest maybe will appear

 

[Johnknight1]

I'm a Samus main, so even without playing as a fastfaller, I can say that Peach's Dsmash is a bihatch to avoid. People tend to spam the Dsmash, and it's easy to get hit eight times within one life, killed by it as an edgeguard, or take minimum seventy damage from that move alone.



Johnknight, you should have actaully played at the tournament. Even if you were spectating, you should have whitnessed several strategies that are just plain peachy, as Dyce describes them. Either way, the experience of playing is certainly different than watchinig, and I'd highly recommend that you get yourself some tournament experience if you have the opprotunity.

If I had a oppurtunity I would get owned! Anyways, it is cheap, I am not denying it, but it shouldn't be totally nerfed. It should be nerfed by all means, but not to the point of uselessness. The reason I say this is I'm afraid what happened to Kirby, could potentially happen to Fox, Falco, Peach, and Marth (even if I don' use him). If they are nerfed, idc, just as long as they don't suck like Kirby. That would be terrible, and sadly if they get nerfed it is very likely that will happen. Then I'd have to switch my main (because my main sucks), AGAIN!

 

[roy_owns]

marth, roy, pichu and G&W won't return, i'm sure 100%, the rest maybe will appear

Take out Marth from that list. Sure I love Roy but he's gonna be replaced by Ike of whoevers gonna be in Goddess of Dawn

 

[lanky_gunner]

actually i would like to see roy return. i used him more than marth. but seeing how everything works roy will probably be replaced by ike. still ike rocks!

 

[Bowserlick]

One Fire Emblem character would be the best. If you want more sword characters take them from other franchises like Golden Sun. That way more of Nintendo is represented rather then taking similar looking swordsman from the same franchise.

So I say either Marth or Ike or Brawl. And judging by the castle it, Marth is already in.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Or how about we have Marth return and we give Ike a different moveset, seeing as it's easily possible to make them different enough. Seriously, besides Isaac and Gannondorf getting a sword, there aren't that many other potential sword users, and neither of those characters will have a sword dominated moveset.

Seriously, you're kidding yourself if you think FE will get less than 2 character reps.

 

[Stryks]

I heard camelot (company that made golden sun) left nintendo, So I doubt we'll see any characters from that series...

Id say 3 FE characters will do in brawl, I mean we had 2 in melee, and since the roster is growing, one more wont hurt, thus Marth (or someone else), Ike and black knight (Ikes main enemy) will do in brawl...

 

[lanky_gunner]

i do agree with less sword characters. i mean 3 characters with sword confirmed and only 2 characters in whole series to use a weapon other than a sword (ice climbers and kirby, although kirby uses a sword too). but fire emblem is great and should have at least two spots, namely marth and ike

EDIT: I don't think camelot was ever a part of nintendo. they just made a few games for nintendo. i know they are making an rpg for the wii after doing some golf game on the internet

 

[LukeFonFabre]

I think Golden Sun and their characters are owned by Nintendo, though I'm not certain on that. Also, all I've heard is that Camelot is making a PC game, I haven't heard anything about them actually leaving Nintendo.

 

[AtticusFinch]

i do agree with less sword characters. i mean 3 characters with sword confirmed and only 2 characters in whole series to use a weapon other than a sword (ice climbers and kirby, although kirby uses a sword too).

What about Fox and Falco, they use blasters?

 

[Bowserlick]

Ike, Marth, and Black Knight? I dunno, that list just seems so dry. There are only so many ways you can swing a sword. So it would mostly come down to stats, I believe. And even that sounds boring to me.

I think Fire Emblem's strategy and swordplay is well represented in Marth and doesn't need help by adding more Lords.

I just hope the roster isn't too repetitive with picks like Ike, Wolf, Dark Samus, Bowser Jr, ect.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

At a risk at going off topic, just because you can't think of different ways in which a sword can be used doesn't mean that Sakurai and the devs can't. I don't see Link, Marth or Meta Knight playing the same, do you? And it's not like there aren't non sword wielding characters to choose from, though the sword weilders are more likely.

Yes, you probably could rep FE with just Marth. You could also rep the Mario series with just Mario, and the Zelda series with just Link. Heck, you could simply just rep Nintendo as a whole with just Mario. Just because they can rep a series with one character doesn't mean they should or are going to.

Like I said, you're kidding yourself if you think FE is getting less than 2 reps. Marth is very likely to return and Ike is very likely to get in, so that's already 2 reps already.

 

[Wrath`]

If your creativity runs dry,it dosent mean sakuras has.
i still hope they consider roy,he is my 2nd best.

but all in all,they might pick JPN's favorite lord and usa/uk favorite

 

[lanky_gunner]

well fire emblem is well recieved, and if it wasn't for marth and roy, we wouldn't have fire emblem here. i honestly think at least 2 FE characters will be included

 

[thrak]

yea but if that happens u dont want to make them like Mrth & Roy. instead u would want a new moveset and something to make the char. unique, right?

 

[Bowserlick]

Responses in red

At a risk at going off topic, just because you can't think of different ways in which a sword can be used doesn't mean that Sakurai and the devs can't. I don't see Link, Marth or Meta Knight playing the same, do you? And it's not like there aren't non sword wielding characters to choose from, though the sword weilders are more likely.

No, Link Marth and Metaknight do not play the same. And that is my point. They are from different franchises and different worlds. They bring elements of that world to go along with their swordplay. That is why I would prefer Issacc from Golden Sun with his earthly powers and sword to get in over Ike. Another world is represented.

Now lets look at the sword characters from the same world. Young Link's swordplay is just like Links, and Roy's looks like Marth's. FE is a strategy game, thus the swordplay has very deliberate swings and specials that are situational. A counter for an offensive oppenent, a combo recover, a shield breaker, etc. I think Marth covered many of the strategic elements with the sword and Ike would only repeat them.

Yes, you probably could rep FE with just Marth. You could also rep the Mario series with just Mario, and the Zelda series with just Link. Heck, you could simply just rep Nintendo as a whole with just Mario. Just because they can rep a series with one character doesn't mean they should or are going to.

Ah, but Mario has more variation in characters. You have a plumber versus a giant turtle trying to save a princess from the land of mushrooms. More reps flesh out the world. Lord versus lord versus lord is more straight forward. Only one (in my opinion) is needed.

Like I said, you're kidding yourself if you think FE is getting less than 2 reps. Marth is very likely to return and Ike is very likely to get in, so that's already 2 reps already.

I am more hoping that only one gets in. I see no point in more then one from a flavor standpoint and world representation standpoint.

 

[Stryks]

Well I do agree with some parts with bowserlick, Isaac bringing a totally new kind of swordsmen, yet since Camelot left nintendo I hardly see any GS characters in brawl...

I think Ike and marth will pay somewhat similair, yet black knight will fight totally diferent if he doesnt end up a clone: The sword he uses is a 2-handed sword, a sword not used by any character so far in smash, even though its a 2 handed sword, BK uses it with one, just like Nightmare in SC, thus I believe BK will have nightmare-like moves, being somewhat slow but very powerful...

Also to bring a totally diferent FE character to the roster, I think Micaiah should be added, yet having 4 FE characters seems too much, so marth or BK wouldnt be added, but my dream FE list is: IKE, BK and Micaiah

 

[LukeFonFabre]

No, Link Marth and Metaknight do not play the same. And that is my point. They are from different franchises and different worlds. They bring elements of that world to go along with their swordplay. That is why I would prefer Issacc from Golden Sun with his earthly powers and sword to get in over Ike. Another world is represented.

Now lets look at the sword characters from the same world. Young Link's swordplay is just like Links, and Roy's looks like Marth's. FE is a strategy game, thus the swordplay has very deliberate swings and specials that are situational. A counter for an offensive oppenent, a combo recover, a shield breaker, etc. I think Marth covered many of the strategic elements with the sword and Ike would only repeat them.

Nice try, but Link and Y.Link are the same person, so of course they fight the same. Are you saying that Ganondorf and Link would be the same if Ganondorf got a sword? According to you they would as they are from the same franchise, but that's clearly not the case. Really, the only reason why Marth and Roy fight so similarly is because one was cloned from the other. Not to mention half the moves that are given to them are practically made up (the only move that actually comes from the game is the counter attack). That doesn't mean Ike or any other swordsman would play the same (especially seeing as they use very different disciplines)

I'd like Isaac too, but I don't think his moveset would be largely sword based as you seem to make out. Psynergy was Isaac's forte, you rarely used a normal attack unless it was for unleashes like Megiddo. He'd be another sword user, but not sword dominated.

Ah, but Mario has more variation in characters. You have a plumber versus a giant turtle trying to save a princess from the land of mushrooms. More reps flesh out the world. Lord versus lord versus lord is more straight forward. Only one (in my opinion) is needed.

The first Mario character besides Mario was Luigi, who is largely very similar to his brother. If two characters who are so similar to each other were preferable to say Mario and Bowser at the time, then I don't see the problem of adding two characters who are only similar in the weapon that they use. You are looking at this way too simplistically though, it's not just Lord vs Lord, it's the graceful pretty boy vs the burly mercenary.

Plus, there are other FE characters that don't use swords you know. If Sakurai does chose to add another FE character after those two, it would be pretty redundent to add another swordsman when there are actually easily unique choices.

I am more hoping that only one gets in. I see no point in more then one from a flavor standpoint and world representation standpoint.

Hope all you want, it's not going to happen. I highly doubt any series will get less representation than they had in melee (which is why it confuses me that people only have 4 Zelda reps, unless they aren't counting Sheik), especially when Sakurai himself seems somewhat fond of the FE series. It's not like it's effecting world representation anyway seeing as there was already 2 FE characters anyway, and it's beneficial to flavour seeing as you are turning two characters with the same moveset into two characters with different movesets.

Regardless, I think we are derailing this topic horribly, so it might be better to continue this in the FE thread that's drifting around these parts.

 

[roy_owns]

Wow I just noticed we got over 300 pages congrats everybody!

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

What I think they should do is put one of every weapon type from the FE series. But that's not going to happen. What's going to happen is there will definitely be Ike, we just can't deny that at this point. He's made a sequel and he's just so popular on both sides of the globe. And Marth is in because we've seen the stage from FE3. (If they even still keep it in that is.)

Personally, I'd like to see Marth and Ike to represent swordplay with fast movement but weak attacks for comboing, Hector should represent axe wielders with low range but heavy damage for easy kills, and I'd like to see either Ephraim represent lance wielders with long range but slow speed to make it even.

 

[Johnknight1]

What I think they should do is put one of every weapon type from the FE series. But that's not going to happen. What's going to happen is there will definitely be Ike, we just can't deny that at this point. He's made a sequel and he's just so popular on both sides of the globe. And Marth is in because we've seen the stage from FE3. (If they even still keep it in that is.)

Personally, I'd like to see Marth and Ike to represent swordplay with fast movement but weak attacks for comboing, Hector should represent axe wielders with low range but heavy damage for easy kills, and I'd like to see either Ephraim represent lance wielders with long range but slow speed to make it even.

Sakurai can come up with a original moveset with Ike. There are so many diffrent types of possilbe swordplay, just like martial arts. Hell, if Sakurai had the time, staff, technology, supplies, and support he could have 50 sword-wielding characters, all with a original moveset. So ya, we can have as many sword-wielding characters as non-sword wielding characters as far as I care, except most the characters I want don't wield swords....

Marth isn't for sure Dyce, but he sure is likely. The castle could be remodeled or remade into a castle from another FE game, but you're right, it is the castle from FE 3 (I reconize it from playing it, well sorta...). Still, almost noone is a guarentee. O, and Roy to return for Brawl!

 

[roy_owns]

They'll probably have the main person from Goddess of Dawn

 

[kuenzel]

People definatly have the most rediculous hopes for characters in SSBB. Ridley? Leon S. Kennidy? CAPTAIN OLIMAR?
personally, Im hoping for fabio.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

They'll probably have the main person from Goddess of Dawn

They should also have Sothe too, yea absolutely. A thief would be so much fun to play as.
Also, they should throw in a dark magician, anima magician, and light magician.

Swordfighter, axe master, lance wielder, dagger carrier, light priestess, anima sage, dark magician... Yes, it's a bit much, and definitely not going to happen, but a guy can dream.

 

[roy_owns]

No way people were complaining about the 7 Mario characters in Melee

 

[Rhyme]

Yes, it's a bit much, and definitely not going to happen, but a guy can dream.

Wishfull thinking is not permitted, sorry.

EDIT: How to Play "recovery" update. Could have been better, we can't even analyze the picture effectively to tell what attack the edgeguarder used.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

EDIT: How to Play "recovery" update. Could have been better, we can't even analyze the picture effectively to tell what attack the edgeguarder used.

Well if you look, you see Mario's recovery has been boosted quite a bit, it moved from what I believe to be a 3 to about a 4.5 (out of 5).

And it was basically the sh;tasticalest update so far since the updates had started. Boo on Sakurai for this one. You'd think he'd at least give us two updates of what we already know. Maybe recovery and shielding/dodging.

AND, if I had to bet on which of Meta's moves was used to knock Mario off, I'd say either his Ftilt or Fsmash. Obvious guess, but I thought I'd throw it in there.

Wishfull thinking is not permitted, sorry.

Try to stop me! HAHAHAHAHA! *Flees the scene with arms flailing wildly in the air*

 

[pineappleupsetshark]

Characters that won't return:
Pichu, Mewtwo, Falco, Dr. Mario, Mr. Game&Watch, Roy, Sheik, Young Link (replaced by WW).