Official SWF Tier List v8

[Man Li Gi]

Don't be so pessimistic.

 

[infiniteV115]

i'm pretty sure that during the MU discussions the boards assumed one-grab-death. otherwise the sheik MU number might actually be what it's supposed to be.

What makes you 'pretty sure' of this? Were you part of the discussion?

 

[Man Li Gi]

I check this thread everyday to see if there are any posts I can learn from, but I usually regret visiting

What do you want to know? Most of the Brawl meta has been discussed and if you want to see MUs, there are character specific forums. I could speak about the Luigi, DK, Squirtle, and Wolf MU as those are who I use the most often.

 

[PKBeam]

What makes you 'pretty sure' of this? Were you part of the discussion?

No but

Sheik we originally had at -2, but the Sheik panel brought up some very good points. They claim that a grab for Sheik should lead to death just as reliably as Marth since Sheik can regrab even the air release, and DACUS it as well. Sheik also gets those grabs easier than Marth does.

it was v2 but these two MUs didn't change. they must be assuming Marth has le deathgrab otherwise they shouldn't even be able to make an argument for -3, without at LEAST putting Marth as -4, which is ridiculous and didn't happen.

yeah but

WFT hard counters D3 anyways

[let's make an update pictures matchup chart]

from browsing these pictures, it would seem that Fox, is now, as Shiny Mewtwo wants, Z tier.

 

[Z'zgashi]

[let's make an update pictures matchup chart]

Challenge accepted. Im busy as **** atm, but tomorrow. I will do this.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Hey guys... Bet this has been asked a jillion times but after playing around with it today I really wanted to get your opinion.

Where would Ice climbers be without chaingrabs?

 

[Man Li Gi]

Probably mid or mid low. They themselves cannot get CGed, but without their CGs, they have to rely on their projectiles. Their smashes are not even as strong as they used to be in Melee.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Theyd be pretty good (like high mid) if people actually played them as if they didnt have a cg. Those big, lingering hitboxes on their hammers (dat uair, mmmmm) kill set ups, etc are actually really good. People like to joke around saying how bad sopo is (and he is) but even just sopo has decent options in any mu where he isnt just hardcore **** blocked by a single move (like MKs sword, snakes tilts, etc). The problem with the ICs is their mobility is SOOOO BAAAAAD. If they were mobile... **** man, thatd be scary.

 

[Ghostbone]

I can't see ICs being any higher than Kirby/Ike level without their Chaingrabs.

But to be fair their meta hasn't developed to support a style that isn't extremely grab centric, so it's hard to properly judge.

 

[Osennecho]

If they still have SOPO's minor CG (can be used w/ Nana there too) then I'd really have to think about it. Otherwise I'd have to agree with Ghost^.

 

[Aidebit]

I used to play a Wiimote-IC's. I had some success with them. (beat all my friends, I'm the best player ever Kappa)

 

[Z'zgashi]

If they still have SOPO's minor CG (can be used w/ Nana there too) then I'd really have to think about it. Otherwise I'd have to agree with Ghost^.

Why wouldnt they have it? It's not their infinite CG. Even if Nana couldnt grab, it could still be done, so even without infinite CG they still have the dthrow one. Plus, they still have Popo grab > Nana smash kills and desyncs (which if people put more time into instead of concentrating on the CG, Im sure theyd have more/better desync set ups/combos/etc). I dont see how they could be bad without the infinite CG.

 

[Osennecho]

^B/c he said where would they be without CGs =_=... That is a minor CG... Therefore his question is asking it in the sense that they don't have that either... He did not say infinite.

 

[Z'zgashi]

99% of the time when people use the phrase 'ICs without their CG' they mean the infinite lol.

 

[Man Li Gi]

True. But why are we talking about SOPO so much? We all know that Nana holds back Popo's real potential. SOPO #1!

 

[Thor]

True. But why are we talking about SOPO so much? We all know that Nana holds back Popo's real potential. SOPO #1!

At least when Jigglysir does it it's sometimes funny. This just made me want to... I don't even know but "laugh" is not in my top 100 reactions, if I have more than 100 to choose from.

 

[Man Li Gi]

There is really no need to talk about SOPO. We have established that it is an ehh character. If you want to further delve into the inner mechanics, there is a character sub forum. Otherwise, the meta has stalled at this point.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The meta has only stalled because people don't want to put time and effort into a **** game tbh

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

At least when Jigglysir does it it's sometimes funny. This just made me want to... I don't even know but "laugh" is not in my top 100 reactions, if I have more than 100 to choose from.

Don't talk like that about Sopo dude. That guy will **** you up. ****. You. Up.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Sopo is pretty garbage. He's still better than most low tiers though.

 

[Man Li Gi]

The meta has only stalled because people don't want to put time and effort into a **** game tbh

Hopefully smash 4 won't be so unbalanced.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well they have an actual good/experienced balance team this time around. And theyve already expressed they arent against patches if needed and you can actually patch games on the WiiU as opposed to the Wii.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Well they have an actual good/experienced balance team this time around. And theyve already expressed they arent against patches if needed and you can actually patch games on the WiiU as opposed to the Wii.

Yeah, but I believe patches in a game as fast paced as Smash, wel bar brawl, would confuse some people as most people try to get used to the lag and certain quirks of a character. Maybe it sounds like I am whining over nothing, but I remember when I played MK and Injustice and how they just kept nerfing everyone I played as (Smoke, Kabal, Johnny Cage, Deathstroke, Joker, Batman, SUperman, Flash). Patches are not bad, but maybe a new patch could arrive like every 6months or something like that.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Well they have an actual good/experienced balance team this time around. And theyve already expressed they arent against patches if needed and you can actually patch games on the WiiU as opposed to the Wii.

I just hope they arn't TOO patch crazy. I dislike it when games needlessly nerf/buff characters, so that every 3 months they have to do it again, because casuals are screaming "OP!" Hopefully they'll only patch up the really broken stuff.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Don't need patches if you just get it right the first time

 

[Man Li Gi]

NO game comes out perfect. They will never get it "right", but they can make it better than average.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Melee was close enough to perfect, they should do something like that again

 

[-LzR-]

Melee is not a game that you could call perfect. It's actually an example of things being ****ed up. If you ignore the 20 characters who can't do **** and focus on the handful viable ones then I agree.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mewtwo, ness and young link have all been used in semi finals of majors in recent years, Yoshi placed 9th at evo and djnintendo demolished unknown with bowser
The top 8 are close enough that any can win a major

The balance isn't optimal, but it's far from a flaw

 

[Osennecho]

Let be real... Both melee and brawl have ~the same # of viable characters... Brawl simply has an additional 12ish horrible ones. Both are quite flawed. If anything if MK was banned brawl would be ridiculously more balanced w/ half the cast viable (different stage list b/c no MK -> ICs not ruining this).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

People underrate low tiers heavily in both games

They also underrate mk, he single-handedly makes brawl less balanced than melee

 

[Osennecho]

Usability=/=viability, as I'm sure you know, Grim. Low tiers can work magic in a few select match-ups but they aren't viable. Ex: Puff is viable vs ICs but isn't viable overall.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Mewtwo, ness and young link have all been used in semi finals of majors in recent years, Yoshi placed 9th at evo and djnintendo demolished unknown with bowser
The top 8 are close enough that any can win a major

The balance isn't optimal, but it's far from a flaw

This type of argle-bargle is why for so long the FGC wanted to shun the Smash community. Balance is a MAJOR flaw to any fighting game that wants to be considered competitive. First of all, aMSa is a great player that placed 25th at evo. M2 (Taj) and Ness (Hbox) were used by players who had their backs to the walls and lost. YL (Armada) was used only as a niche direct counter to Gengar. I have not seen the Bowser match tho. Even now, Ness (Shaky:watch the Bleachigo match) and Ike (Ryo) were 25th at Apex for Brawl. While these things do sound cool and try and make low/mid tiers appealing, they are the exception not the "rule". I like my share of "bad characters" (tried to main Link, Ganon, Zelda, Mario, and CF), but there are legitimate reasons why they are placed where they are. I play with mid/ lows since I find the game more fun though (in a some sort of masochistic way) and it would just be too easy and boring to win with characters that are supposed to win.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Who cares what the fighting game community thinks? They aren't an authority on who is good and bad in our game or competitive game theory lol

I meant 9th at Apex for amsa.

Taj's mewtwo was up against the best player in the world at the time, and he performed incredibly well - if he was held back by his character, why did his marth lose? If Hungrybox was held back by his character, why does his Puff lose?

Seeing characters like those at high level play is a rarity not because they are too bad to use, but because they are unnecessarily difficult to use when compared to top tiers. Very few characters in melee actually have crippling flaws that let other characters shut them down - dash-dance, shield and a basic moveset are all you need against an opponent that you can read, and every character is graced with those.

Usability=/=viability, as I'm sure you know, Grim. Low tiers can work magic in a few select match-ups but they aren't viable. Ex: Puff is viable vs ICs but isn't viable overall.

I've yet to encounter a player who has made me think Puff is unviable overall

People need to stop using everything as a john, maybe once you've literally become the best you can possibly be with x low tier, THEN you can start complaining about their limitations.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Who cares what the fighting game community thinks? They aren't an authority on who is good and bad in our game or competitive game theory lol

I meant 9th at Apex for amsa.

Taj's mewtwo was up against the best player in the world at the time, and he performed incredibly well - if he was held back by his character, why did his marth lose? If Hungrybox was held back by his character, why does his Puff lose?

Seeing characters like those at high level play is a rarity not because they are too bad to use, but because they are unnecessarily difficult to use when compared to top tiers. Very few characters in melee actually have crippling flaws that let other characters shut them down - dash-dance, shield and a basic moveset are all you need against an opponent that you can read, and every character is graced with those.



I've yet to encounter a player who has made me think Puff is unviable overall

People need to stop using everything as a john, maybe once you've literally become the best you can possibly be with x low tier, THEN you can start complaining about their limitations.

You seem to lack the understanding of what an exception and then what is the norm. Salem won Apex 2013, yet has been unable to get top 5 in in the singles he has entered for. You are right that the FGC's opinion should not dictate what is a legit fighting game, but that is not how the world works. People who play mid/low tiers depend/rely on the other players lack of MU knowledge. And if we shall talk about Armada for a second, his best MUs are against Sheik and Marth. Taj's Marth, as good as it was, is not going to cut it. Armada pretty much dominated Taj's M2. Hbox's Gengar lost since after Apex 2010, Armada practiced other characters that outrange and outspeed Gengar, hence YL was chosen and the great Apex 2012 event occurred. Hbox wanted to find an aerial person that can beat YL, but Ness cannot do it since he does get outranged by YL.

Now that that is out of the way, I would like to direct your attention to the bolded text. What nonsense is this? Must I do a full coverage of why low/mid reside in their respective tiers? Instead of giving a full rundown as if this is a Melee MU/Tier thread, I will list the basic reasons, if you have a problem, let's go to a Melee sub forum or PM.
Roy: Predictable recovery, weaker when trying to space, falls like a rock,;etc
Zelda: slow, awkwardly placed sweetspots, a counter offensive playstyle in a offensive played game, slow finishers (other than the awkward ones), no approach, predictable recovery
Pichu:..... must i say more
Kirby: comboed really easy (perfect size for followups), a huge nerf in power overall, lack of the lethal 0-death capability, slow on ground, and ehh in air
Ness: huge nerf in power as well, still has bad range, slow on ground, decent in air though
Bowser: Combo food ur day son. Terrible recovery and a slow rate of attacks.
M2: Light as a feather, tall as a building, has trouble KOing and approaching. Can easily get outspaced
I can go on, but there are numerous reasons why the mid/lows are where there are.

There should not be any Johns from people who choose to play with low tiers. The brawl meta reached its limitation like 2012 and Melee in 2008. If low tiers had the potential to be high tiers, why is it that we see MKs mainly making GFs, but not Link, Ganon, PTs, Marios, Zelda;etc.? In this entire argument, you make it sound like there are things left to be found taht can completely shake the meta and make all tiers completely viable.

 

[ぱみゅ]

To be fair, Meta Knight and Ice Climbers completely took our metagame.
Other characters probably didn't get their best possible play because people just didn't use them, hence why players like Shaky, Ryo, Salem and Will still surprise others all around the world for their mastery of their characters.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you think those flaws shut them down, then shouldn't Fox's light-weight, falling like a rock and lack of range make him a bad character?
I realize this is hyperbole, but I'd rather you give me the benefit of the doubt than assume I have no idea about how these characters work.

I actually explained exactly why we see mainly mks making grand finals in lieu of lower tiers, you just chose to ignore it dude.
When you have a billion people playing mk and one playing zss, of course zss isn't going to consistently rake in comparable results lol, plus whenever you have a player who is dedicated and skilled they are more likely to choose mk than zss.

Armada didn't destroy Taj's mewtwo, it was two 2-stocks.

HBox's Ness almost DID beat Armada, the Shy Guys ****ed him up for one of the games, so clearly he didn't have a problem with "getting out-ranged" or whatever other absurdly simplified notions you have about the way characters operate at top level. If you'd like, I can find the HBox quote where he is asked why he picked Ness to "counter" Young Link and he just says that it's less about character vs. character, and more about player vs. player at top level.

And also please consider that I'm not saying Pichu = Fox here, I'm just saying that low tiers are underrated

 

[Man Li Gi]

Marth, Falco, and Snake are the most commonly used characters in the meta. MK reaches the farthest since he is by far the greatest character. You did not say that and I was expecting you to say that, but whatever. That simple. Ask most pro players and they will say one of the three aforementioned.
I do consider getting 2 stocked getting destroyed. I always give people the benefit of the doubt. If I sound like I am condescending, well you can't exactly capture tone through a computer can you?
Ness came close but did not win. Surprisingly tho Hbox's Gengar led him to the one win. I swear I posted it earlier that the importance of a match come down to: 1st player to player, 2nd is character to character, 3rd stage. Characters obviously do still play a role as Armada did have to do a costume change from Peach to YL. Low tiers are underrated, but still deserve their spot is what I am saying.

To be fair, Meta Knight and Ice Climbers completely took our metagame.

Hence why I believe the meta has stalled since 2012.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Seeing characters like those at high level play is a rarity not because they are too bad to use, but because they are unnecessarily difficult to use when compared to top tiers.

I said this, that was the thing you overlooked

meta knight is the most used character in the game last time I checked (John#'s thread from a while back) and by a significant margin, so I'd be surprised if that's changed - where does your info come from? the point pretty much stands regardless

If you consider getting 2-stocked destroyed, then people get destroyed by players of equal skill VERY regularly in melee (brawl is a different story)

 

[Man Li Gi]

I said this, that was the thing you overlooked

meta knight is the most used character in the game last time I checked (John#'s thread from a while back) and by a significant margin, so I'd be surprised if that's changed - where does your info come from? the point pretty much stands regardless

If you consider getting 2-stocked destroyed, then people get destroyed by players of equal skill VERY regularly in melee (brawl is a different story)

This was from mikeHaze's post, but now it is a couple years old..... it said falco, marth, and snake were the most prevalent. Even to this day, I don't believe MK is as common as people say, they just make it the farthest. I did not overlook anything. I saw it and did not have a proper rebuttal to it at the time. You see low tiers all the time clustering pools, but don't make it out normally since the characters themselves have too many flaws holding them back. The player could be a grade Gdorf making like 80% of their reads, but still loses to a Snake due to the many inherent tools Snake has over Gdorf. Same with a Pichu in Melee (in fact I don't think I have seen any Pichus in pools bar Azen like a decade ago).