Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Claire Diviner]

That is why there are stripper poles.
*nods at this*

Easy with those comments there. You're getting a little inappropriate.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Easy with those comments there. You're getting a little inappropriate.

I was implying using the pole as a weapon.

Where is YOUR mind going lady?


@maharba: It is because of how you have the macro arranged.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I was implying using the pole as a weapon.

Where is YOUR mind going lady?

Oh, well that would still contradict my pacifism.

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS is definitely given a huge buff in 1-stock. I wouldn't hesitate to say that her being 1st on the 1-stock tier list isn't out of the question.

Dunno much about Squirtle but I'd imagine he's at least high tier in 1-stock.

 

[Claire Diviner]

How often does ZSS get the first stock in matches?

 

[infiniteV115]

Not often enough, imo.

I started practicing my suitpiece game recently against computers, and at the next tournament I saw drastic improvement. I was even able to get a 1.5 stock lead against a player that beats me frequently and is generally considered a better player than I am.

And I ****ed Will up with that **** too. ZSSs are lacking in their suitpiece game significantly imo.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I keep forgetting about her suit pieces at the start of a match. They actually give her a potentially stupid advantage that first stock. You're probably right about her being 1st on a 1-stock tier list for that reason. Of course, this doesn't take into account reflectors, or opponents who know how to catch thrown items.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yes it does.
Falco's reflector is easily punishable with sideBs (sideB outranges his reflector).
Fox and Wolf suffer from the same problem and all 3 (moreso the latter two) can get ****ed over cause ZSS can dsmash right through their reflector, and they all get dsmash locked at lower percents.

Pit's reflectors are both huge commitments to make, and with Mario's cape, ROB's sideB and the PKkids' fsmashes (lol) you have to make a hard read considering how slow it comes out.

Zelda sucks anyway.

As for catching, you have to keep in mind that generally you don't throw your suitpieces sideways, it's too easy for her to lose them that way. You keep multiple pieces bouncing close to each other and throw out attacks to defend them (and they defend you in return) and you can shield pressure with them against quite a few characters (eg sh above them, throw suitpiece down onto opponent's shield --> bair their shield and catch suitpiece at same time)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Having suit pieces out makes nair awesome. That is all.

 

[da K.I.D.]

How often does zss get the first stock? More often than she gets the last stock.


Also, based on my very limited non-reflex pokemon trainer experience. I would think sonic beats PT. Probably goes even or slightly loses to squirt and pretty much runs through the other two. But sonic pt and sonic pit are probably two of the least seen matchups in the entire game so most anything one would say regarding that is mostly theory i would think.

 

[Ishiey]

It's weird to see that PT's only even matchup is against Sonic--Not because it's Sonic, but because it's just one character.

Kind of miffed about Ike and Lucario being -2. I wonder when this thing will be updated again.

Soon.

Or rather, we'll get started on the project soon. Maybe a month or so.

EDIT: @ ZSS and her suit pieces: how viable is it for the opponent to time out your suitpieces?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle beats Sonic fairly cleanly, IMO. As far as the other two go, what's stopping PT from getting on a platform, switching twice, and SDI'ing the inevitable attempts to deal 30% with some B move?

 

[Kuro~]

Yes it does.
Falco's reflector is easily punishable with sideBs (sideB outranges his reflector).
Fox and Wolf suffer from the same problem and all 3 (moreso the latter two) can get ****ed over cause ZSS can dsmash right through their reflector, and they all get dsmash locked at lower percents.

Pit's reflectors are both huge commitments to make, and with Mario's cape, ROB's sideB and the PKkids' fsmashes (lol) you have to make a hard read considering how slow it comes out.

Zelda sucks anyway.

As for catching, you have to keep in mind that generally you don't throw your suitpieces sideways, it's too easy for her to lose them that way. You keep multiple pieces bouncing close to each other and throw out attacks to defend them (and they defend you in return) and you can shield pressure with them against quite a few characters (eg sh above them, throw suitpiece down onto opponent's shield --> bair their shield and catch suitpiece at same time)

Both fox and wolf could realistically reflect on reaction and be realtively safe to do so since u can cancel the reflect with a roll, spotdodge, or jump. Moreso towards fox since wolfs doesn't reflect on the first few frames.

 

[C.J.]

Soon.

Or rather, we'll get started on the project soon. Maybe a month or so.

EDIT: @ ZSS and her suit pieces: how viable is it for the opponent to time out your suitpieces?

I can't imagine it's viable at all. Item "life" only decreases when they're just laying on the ground. Since the benefit of the armor pieces is in their ability to bounce to protect ZSS as a shield with hurtboxes, the ZSS will just keep them bouncing (as they want to do regardless) and then the "life" never lessens.

 

[infiniteV115]

Attempting to time out suitpieces is not a safe strategy at all. She already has multiple powerful moves that are safe on shield (dsmash, sideB, bair) and when you throw in the threat behind suitpieces it becomes a lot safer for her to shield pressure you.

Both fox and wolf could realistically reflect on reaction and be realtively safe to do so since u can cancel the reflect with a roll, spotdodge, or jump. Moreso towards fox since wolfs doesn't reflect on the first few frames.

I don't agree with your definition of realistic. Yes, theoretically it's possible, but it's not realistic to think that people are just going to reflect such a fast projectile (coupled with the option of fast glidetosses) on reaction.

I mean, I wouldn't even call it realistic to expect Fox and Wolf players to reflect BANANAS on reaction, and bananas move slower, don't go as far, and Diddy's glidetosses are all significantly slower and shorter than ZSS'.

 

[Player-1]

is there frame data for zss's item throws?

 

[infiniteV115]

There probably is, but I don't know any of it.
I think I know what you're getting at though, lol.
Perhaps I was wrong in saying that Diddy's glidetosses are slower (I meant that Diddy travels at a slower speed, not that the hitboxes come out earlier than in Diddy's glidetosses). And it's possible that all his tosses' hitboxes come out earlier than ZSS'.

Regardless, all of her item tosses come out quickly enough and it's still very unrealistic to expect people to reflect that **** on reaction. I mean from far range, sure. At mid range (ie tip of her sideb/grab) and close range? No.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Both fox and wolf could realistically reflect on reaction and be realtively safe to do so since u can cancel the reflect with a roll, spotdodge, or jump. Moreso towards fox since wolfs doesn't reflect on the first few frames.

No, no they can't cancel the reflector with a Jump, Roll, Spot dodge. That may have been in Melee, but it changed since then. It's no longer like that.

Fox's reflector does hit on frame 3 and ends on frame 15, which makes it appear to have a "Cancel".

Wolf's Reflector is.. I have no idea about the cool down, but you can't cancel it either.

You are able to changed directions you're facing, however.

 

[C.J.]

No, no they can't cancel the reflector with a Jump, Roll, Spot dodge. That may have been in Melee, but it changed since then. It's no longer like that.

Fox's reflector does hit on frame 3 and ends on frame 15, which makes it appear to have a "Cancel".

Wolf's Reflector is.. I have no idea about the cool down, but you can't cancel it either.

You are able to changed directions you're facing, however.

You're wrong, about Fox at least. Not 100% sure on Wolf though. After reflecting a projectile, Fox (and I think Wolf) are able to jump and roll out of their reflector.

Unless every Wii I've ever played on was hacked.

 

[-LzR-]

So that means Fox can JC usmash from a reflector, on shield or near a wall or something?

 

[C.J.]

If the opponent hit your shield with a projectile and you input the jump after the projectile hit the shine, I don't see why not.

inb4sillyteamscombos


EDIT: I just realized how awkward that would be with default controls

 

[_Kain_]

Both Fox and Wolf can cancel their shines if a projectile gets reflected.

 

[1PokeMastr]

My apologies, I misunderstood what Kuro had said or misread it.
I thought he meant you can cancel it normally. My apologies on that.

 

[-LzR-]

But think if like Falco tries so laser you on landing, you could probably JC usmash after reflecting to laser usmash him instead if he doesn't react. Or something, probably doesn't work at all.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So that means Fox can JC usmash from a reflector, on shield or near a wall or something?

But think if like Falco tries so laser you on landing, you could probably JC usmash after reflecting to laser usmash him instead if he doesn't react. Or something, probably doesn't work at all.

I dont know if ive ever done a JC up smash. I might have.

But I know for sure I fought a pikachu where he was at 90 and I reflected a thunder jolt, and comboed that into a SH dair to up smash. It was glorious.

I might start going for that up smash though. Sounds stylish as hell.


and @ reflex, whats to stop sonic from just literally running away from squirtle until he can beat him? Squirtle gets tired, sonic can run forever. Plus theres probably some really gay grab release stuff we can do to him. I know theres a GR CG at the very least.

 

[Tesh]

Squirtle and ZSS would like to have a word with you.

How often does ZSS get the first stock in matches?

ZSS probably still wouldn't be the best. Suit pieces are a fragile resource as you can't get them back if you miss with a horizontal toss (these are the ones that really do work after all). Also stuff like nado still just beats suit pieces anyway.

Squirtle beats Sonic fairly cleanly, IMO. As far as the other two go, what's stopping PT from getting on a platform, switching twice, and SDI'ing the inevitable attempts to deal 30% with some B move?

Even if we are talking about smashville, you are still talking about taking 20+ damage plus a juggle with IVYSAUR or CHARIZARD. By the you get to Squirtle all Sonic has to do is land one more hit and you are done. When dealing with ASC, I don't think any amount of humanly possible SDI will get you out of the 2nd hit and even if it did, nothing will stop you from going up.

Squirtle probably beats Sonic as a character, but Sonic has a big survivability advantage and can abuse fatigue just by playing defensively, trading hits and taking the loooooooooooooooooooooooooongest path back to the stage when recovering. And its not like Squirtle is going to gimp Sonic...

 

[Claire Diviner]

ZSS probably still wouldn't be the best. Suit pieces are a fragile resource as you can't get them back if you miss with a horizontal toss (these are the ones that really do work after all). Also stuff like nado still just beats suit pieces anyway.

I don't know, horizontal tosses are the more straightforward approach, plus, I doubt a good ZSS player would just chuck pieces like that willy nilly. Mixing them up (vertical tosses, dropping, etc.) is key, but that goes without saying. Sure, you have MK's 'Nado, but Zamus can just block that and punish severely when the Tornado ends.

Also, on the reflector bit, yeah, I can see where using them would be more a liability than anything. I suppose it's why no one really uses them to actually reflect projectiles.

 

[Tesh]

Reflectors are near useless because almost every projectile in the game is :
A- so slow that the original shooter can shield it after you reflect it back
B- so fast you probably won't have time to reflect instead of just shield
C- not worth reflecting (most items are in this category imo)

I'd pick Squirtle back up if 1 or 2 stock matches were standard. Its sad how many things are dragging that poor fella down.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

F-Tilt stuffs Sonic's everything. It's pretty hard for him even with fatigue.

 

[Tesh]

Ftilt is going to stop Sonic from running away?

Also it does like 4 damage when fatigued. I don't think it really matters unless you are going to wall Sonic out for 8 minutes with it without ever trading.

I guess I'm having trouble visualizing this, are there some moderately high level sonic vs pt matches I can see? I can't imagine something like that would ever happen though...

 

[infiniteV115]

Suit pieces are a fragile resource as you can't get them back if you miss with a horizontal toss (these are the ones that really do work after all).

No they aren't.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't know. Ask Espy.

 

[Neon!]

Is there any work being done on a 3rd version of the matchup chart?

There a few changes that I think should be made for DK:

IC from -2 to -3
Rob from 0 to -1
Sheik from 0 to -1
Link from +2 to +1

 

[da K.I.D.]

F-Tilt stuffs Sonic's everything. It's pretty hard for him even with fatigue.

its pretty fast but last i checked (its been a while) my f tilt out ranges your everything and can even be angled up to stuff your aerials.

Can we at least agree that he runs train on the other 2?

 

[fox67890]

Reflectors are near useless because almost every projectile in the game is :
A- so slow that the original shooter can shield it after you reflect it back
B- so fast you probably won't have time to reflect instead of just shield
C- not worth reflecting (most items are in this category imo)

I disagree :/. A lot of projectiles are worth reflecting. Simply power shielding projectiles can protect you, but if you can reflect their own projectile back at them, they have to mentally remind them-self to either use projectiles in a different fashion, use them far less, or not use them at all. Saying that reflectors are useless because the original shooter can shield them is like saying Falco's laser are useless because the person being outcamped can just shield them.

Aura Spheres, Falco's lasers, Pit's arrows, Mario's fireball, Snake's grenade (on a read off an early throw), pika's thunderjolts are all worth reflecting, and that's just to name a few.

Idk about wolf, but Fox's reflector comes out frame 3. Not much of a time difference between power-shielding and reflecting something. That means that if your opponent throws a projectile at you and you see it coming, there's almost always enough time to reflect it if you can block it. Considering you can jump out of reflector, that means you can do a laser tech, such as SHTL out of reflector. Your opponent now has to worry about three lasers and their own projectile hitting them more or less at the same time. The reflected projectile also does more damage/knockback.

Of course Wolf's Fox's reflectors can do more stuff that just reflect projectiles, but that's a different story
___________________
JC upsmashes are possible out of reflector (you obviously have to reflect a projectile first though). http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KLbsVbRIFlU#t=78s @1:52. Realistically though, since you just reflected something, the range between you and your opponent wouldn't normally allow this to hit.

You can reflect item pieces from ZSS as Fox and Wolf. I reaaaaaally don't recommend this though. infiniteV115 is right about it being unsafe. I'm pretty sure it's way to hard to do on reaction. In fact, even if you could react to her actually throwing it, how would you know she's throwing it at you, instead of say, up? That leaves you open for a moment if you don't actually reflect anything (a brief moment, but it's still there).

It's really dangerous because of glidetosses though. If she glidetoss it down and goes toward you and you throw out reflector...well, this will happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYPs_dUda2Q
If you're far away, you can use reflector, but I don't think ZSS would throw pieces at you from far away (unless maybe at the start to catch you off guard).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Can we at least agree that he runs train on the other 2?

Hard to say. Ivysaur, most likely, but, Charizard has reasonable speed to threaten Sonic, nice range, and many of Sonic's attacks outright lose to Rock Smash, so he must be careful.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How good do you actually think PT would be at top level?
Like, estimated tier placing?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't know. Someone would have to maximize the effectiveness of Squirtle camping via shellstalling, optimal use of Forward-B/Neutral-B, and True Hydroplaning (sliding around in neutral position is so good), but it also implies that everyone else would be maximizing the effect of fatigue against you.

The real trouble revolves around the fact that PT's best stuff requires a great deal of precision; his moves are rarely out for many frames, and most of the strong/very damaging attacks get punished when you whiff, so you're stuck with your death of a thousand cuts strategy a lot of the time. Because of how strong defensive options in this game are, you're not accomplishing much if the opponent acts intelligently.

Maybe -slightly- higher than he is now, but he's in the right area, I think, unless Squirtle camping becomes incredibly powerful.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What is shellstalling?

And I hate to inject Puff into every conversation (nah, I love it) but I think she is pretty similar to Squirtle in that regard.

Safe if played properly (which is something you can't say about Bowser, for example), but requires so much precision and gets punished so hard off mistakes...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What is shellstalling?

And I hate to inject Puff into every conversation (nah, I love it) but I think she is pretty similar to Squirtle in that regard.

Safe if played properly (which is something you can't say about Bowser, for example), but requires so much precision and gets punished so hard off mistakes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9vzwNWUZWA

It's the ability to stall the dash turnaround (the shellshift, if you will) up to ~20 frames while still being able to do whatever you'd normally be able to do out of it afterward. It's good because shellshift/hydroplane stuff without shellstalling isn't that big a deal when the opponent is in neutral position, since they know the exact time you'll be coming at them.

What you can normally do out of it with no technical skill is a Jab with a slight slide, a grab with a HUGE slide, or shield. That mix-up by itself is pretty nice for tacking on damage and keeping yourself safe, but, True Hydroplaning (we really should give it another name) makes it even better. True Hydroplaning is buffering a turnaround out of the dash turnaround. Squirtle slides the distance of a normal Hydroplaned whatever, except he's in neutral position the whole time. That makes for a safer way to poke with U-Tilt and Jab (which continue to slide), as well as D-Tilt and F-Tilt (which stop the slide as soon as you start the move). You can even do it to an instant pivot grab on the other side of the opponent if you want.

Thankfully, not everything about the character takes precision. Squirtle's F-Tilt is...imagine if Meta Knight's D-Tilt couldn't trip, but covered the space of Meta Knight's F-Tilt1. That's so obnoxiously good for general harassment.