Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Uncle]

What ever happened to that suggestion of having Food on Low or Medium?

 

[da K.I.D.]

food is worse than percent based timeouts.

also, Brawl matches are best when played as 2 stock matches.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

also, Brawl matches are best when played as 2 stock matches.

This really can't be stressed enough, but would anyone switch?

 

[Alphicans]

food is worse than percent based timeouts.

also, Brawl matches are best when played as 2 stock matches.

Why?... and why?

 

[BSP]

Another question is what's so good about 3 stock

 

[Luigi player]

Another question is what's so good about 3 stock

It's my favorite number.

Also it makes people getting more consistent results which is a good thing for competitiveness. If one would ask me, we could also start doing 4 stock again... too bad tourneys would never end with that.

 

[Uncle]

2 stock matches have the obvious advantage of ENDING SOONER. That's a fact.

3 stock matches...................yeah, I can't really come up with a concrete advantage for them. There's no conclusive evidence saying they are more decisive or anything like that. You could argue that "SDs have more of an effect," and you might be right, but the keyword is might. Let's look...........

Two guys are at 3 stocks. One SDs, so now it's 3 stocks vs. 2 stocks.

Two guys are at 2 stocks. One SDs, so now it's 2 stocks vs. 1 stock.

In both examples, there is a ONE stock advantage. The degree of the lead is the same, but you could argue that 2 stock matches give both players less time/fewer chances to adapt to each other and to make up for any mistakes they make. Is that really a bad thing, though?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It'd probably make low tiers more viable, as they generally are punished much harder for mistakes and are easier to make mistakes with.

 

[| Big D |]

More stocks = higher skill gap = more likely the better player will win.

It could be argued that if a player were to SD, he didn't have the skill not to. Is this the only skill that should be tested? Should a player be punished to a point of not being able to come back? By reducing the game to 2 stock, you are effectively putting more emphasis on a player's ability to never SD, and less on player's ability to come back. A player has to now outplay the other person to an even larger extent. The more stocks, the more of a chance he has to outplay the opponent and demonstrate that he is the better player. With that much emphasis on not making a mistake, the game becomes less about taking risks, going for reads, but playing as safe as possible.

A rule set is not meant to balance a game. In extreme cases maybe, but not make characters more viable.

 

[-LzR-]

A rule set is not meant to balance a game. In extreme cases maybe, but not make characters more viable.

Then explain how the whole ruleset is based around keeping MK legal?

 

[Z'zgashi]

^ It shouldnt be. There shouldnt be any character specific rules imo.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

^^ doesnt change the fact that it still is

 

[da K.I.D.]

we shouldnt base our rules on whether it makes it better/worse/ok to SD in a tournament match with money on the line either.

2 stock increases the feasibility and lowers the run time for tournaments while not decreasing the skill gap and margin for error to an unacceptable degree. if youre tournament results are m2k, ally, anti, vinnie then dabuz, its probably not going to change those results by making them 2 stock games. and if it did then its pretty safe to say theres just as much of a chance of those different results happening in a 3 stock setting.

one stock brawl DOES do both of those things though, which is why everyone who does 1 stock tournaments prefers 3/5 matches.

forn me what it comes down to is the fact that most people have extended the clock for matches. and while im not advocating change just to fit in. when I go to marvel and street fighter and tekken tournaments. and a 3/5 match in marvel, a best of 5 2 out of 3 set in tekken and a 2/3 in SF all take roughly 5-10 minutes. and one game in brawl is has a 10 minute timer. thats a problem. 10 minutes is far too long for a single match in any game.

2 stock imo could easily be run on a 5 minute timer. That alone is almost cutting the running time of every tournament in half.

 

[-LzR-]

I could probably try 2 stocks, it sounds awkward though. Time is always an issue so faster tourneys would be cool. But how would you think it would affect PT, Lucario and ZSS?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I don't see how the number of stocks affect ZSS, could someone explain it to me please?

Does it have something to do with suit pieces?

 

[NickRiddle]

Yes, suit pieces. 1/3 as opposed to 1/2 a match if we kill you with items.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I could probably try 2 stocks, it sounds awkward though. Time is always an issue so faster tourneys would be cool. But how would you think it would affect PT, Lucario and ZSS?

1 stock would affect them more than 2 stock.

Lucario loses the ability to have his aura be stupid high from being 2 stocks behind, but quite frankly if he's 2 stocks behind, he probably wasn't going to bring it back just based on aura alone. He'll still make all the same comebacks.

PT gets to avoid using pokemon that are bad for the MU (usually Ivy, but not always). If you watch Reflex play, you'll probably notice that usually only uses about 2 pokemon in 3 stock matches, he just has to find good times to swap out the 3rd one. Fatigue doesn't seem to affect it that badly.

ZSS gets to have her suit pieces for a larger portion of the match, but how good is that, really? If you're getting smashed on solely because of suit pieces, you should be smart enough to throw them away ASAP. They're obviously really good to use when you have them, but I don't think they'd exactly change the game.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think it really matters how much ZSS and the like are affected. PT gets better than ZSS IMO, though. Suit pieces are good and all, but she still wouldn't even be top tier.

 

[Player-1]

2 stock imo could easily be run on a 5 minute timer. That alone is almost cutting the running time of every tournament in half.

wtf...?

2 stocks on a minute timer would be even worse than 3 stocks on an 8 minute timer. 2 stock on 5 minute timer=2 and a half minutes per stock, 3 stocks on an 8 minute timer is 2 minutes and 40 seconds per stock which timeouts have already shown to be a problem with 3 stocks and 8 minutes.

And no, you're not cutting running time of a tournament in half, that'd only be true if every tournament set on a 10 minute timer would go to time, lol.

I don't see how the number of stocks affect ZSS, could someone explain it to me please?

Does it have something to do with suit pieces?

yes, the more stocks the less of an effect suit pieces will have assuming the ZSS player does better with suit pieces out. If you look at it from a point of view from DBZ Power Levels (lolz), let's say a ZSS player has a power level of 6000 while some MK player (could be any character) has a power level of 7000, but when ZSS has armor pieces then the power level increases to OVER 9000!!!! Well for the instances where ZSS has armor pieces our then that player will take the lead of a match and potentially finish off her opponent if it's 1 stock before the suit pieces are even gone. Then let's say it's a 3 stock match and just assuming the ZSS player takes the first stock relatively easily with armor pieces but loses them at the beginning of the next stock well her power level is back to 6000 while the other player's is at 7000. Well, that player is going to start catching up, but will that player be able to catch back up fast enough before ZSS wins? Is a power level of 7000 with 2 stocks better than a power level of 6000 with 3 stocks? Who will reach 0 first? It's a rate of change type of thing.


The more stocks=more consistency in results (typically, brawl has a few things that affect specifically stocks like zss suit pieces or lucario's aurua). Just like if you're gambling or something, you might have a 1/10 chance of winning, but if you only gamble once and you just so happen win that one time out of ten on your first try...well that still doesn't make the odds in your favor, it doesn't show consistency.

 

[Tesh]

I could probably try 2 stocks, it sounds awkward though. Time is always an issue so faster tourneys would be cool. But how would you think it would affect PT, Lucario and ZSS?

Every time someone says stock reduction helps or hurts Lucario, I want to die. Every 3 stock comeback includes a 2 stock and 1 stock comeback anyway. There is just less of a deficit to be had. The only benefit you could get out of this is that its kind of hard to 3 stock lucario cuz his freaking nair and **** on his last stock trades hard.

1 stock would affect them more than 2 stock.

Lucario loses the ability to have his aura be stupid high from being 2 stocks behind, but quite frankly if he's 2 stocks behind, he probably wasn't going to bring it back just based on aura alone. He'll still make all the same comebacks.

PT gets to avoid using pokemon that are bad for the MU (usually Ivy, but not always). If you watch Reflex play, you'll probably notice that usually only uses about 2 pokemon in 3 stock matches, he just has to find good times to swap out the 3rd one. Fatigue doesn't seem to affect it that badly.

ZSS gets to have her suit pieces for a larger portion of the match, but how good is that, really? If you're getting smashed on solely because of suit pieces, you should be smart enough to throw them away ASAP. They're obviously really good to use when you have them, but I don't think they'd exactly change the game.

90% of the time, reflex stays squirtle until squirtle dies, regardless of fatigue. Charizard is often that much worse than Squirtle even with his kill power (his fastest kill move doesn't even link properly so its like trying to kill with ganondorf or falco really, you are better off being the safe weaker one).

If ZSS became top tier in 1 stock matches, she would just get camped like ICs until she missed 3 shots. People haven't put nearly as much effort into item control and just instant tossing atm. If 1 stock actually adds 2 viable characters (zss and squirtle) thats a huge plus.

 

[Dabuz]

2 stock will never happen 5 years into brawl's metagame.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

2-stock makes PT noticeably worse. Playing 2-and-a-quarter stocks of the ideal Pokémon will always be better than just once and some change.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

2 stock will never happen 5 years into brawl's metagame.

Yeah, that's true, but it's a general consensus that with brawl the less stocks the better. :\

 

[Luigi player]

2 stock increases the feasibility and lowers the run time for tournaments while not decreasing the skill gap and margin for error to an unacceptable degree. if youre tournament results are m2k, ally, anti, vinnie then dabuz, its probably not going to change those results by making them 2 stock games. and if it did then its pretty safe to say theres just as much of a chance of those different results happening in a 3 stock setting.

Lower tiers would ONLY get "better", because results would be more random.

And I can guarantee you that maybe not too many top players would lose matches to players they wouldn't before, but within them it will random it up even more. It might not happen often which makes sense, but more often than with 3 stocks which should also make sense.

ZSS would be really good with 2/1 stock. Her projectiles sometimes **** people's stocks (not always, but it can happen). I think it's definitely a possibility that she'd reach top tier... (depending on where you draw the line from top / high, though).

I also think ZSS would be better than Squirtle in 1 stock. Suit pieces are so... strong, ugh.

Yeah, that's true, but it's a general consensus that with brawl the less stocks the better. :\

Why do people think that?

 

[Player-1]

suit pieces aren't strong against a diddy player

 

[Luigi player]

suit pieces aren't strong against a diddy player

Of course they can be. Mabye you get them a few times, but they help the ZSS much more, if she's really good with them, at least.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I wonder who has a better item throw animation

 

[Player-1]

When I played Salem with armor pieces it ended up being even or my favor, I think maybe his favor once

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The thing that makes diddy better with items is his height. No character can duck his item throws

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why do people think that?

1. Lower match length. Brawl sets can be ludicrously long. Grand finals can go on for almost an hour if the guy from losers wins the first set. Brawl tournaments take forever. Several tournaments in NY/NJ I used to go to would start at 10 or 11 am and end at midnight or later, pretty crazy.

2. More entertaining matches for spectators. 1- and 2-stock matches are incredibly fun to watch compared to 3-stock matches. They're more intense, mistakes matter more. Characters who can kill early can have disgusting, clutch comebacks (see 1-stock ADHD vs Will game 1) that really build hype and bring crowds. The effect is super profound.

3. More aggressive gameplay. This is especially true in 1-stock, where there's no such thing as a stock lead to camp on, but is also true in 2-stock matches to an extent. The added aggression mitigates a lot of Brawl's stalling abuses. Momentum that carries over between matches is also significantly more important, and lowered mental fatigue allows players to stay alert and smart for more effective time (so, a larger percentage of a tournament).

4. Additional character viability. This has been touched on earlier in the thread, but tons of characters benefit from sets with lower stocks and very few are hurt significantly by them. For example, Peach is probably going to perform better in 1- or 2-stock sets because tbh she kind of runs out of effective mixups by stock 3, lol.

There are other reasons, I'd really like KID or Doom to expand upon them if they read this and have the time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

The real question you have to ask yourself is what benefits do three stock matches have over 2 stock matches that cant also be used as reasoning to have 4 stock tournaments or more.

Realistically, fact of the matter is that brawl matches take too long, and it hurts tournaments.

 

[Luigi player]

The real question you have to ask yourself is what benefits do three stock matches have over 2 stock matches that cant also be used as reasoning to have 4 stock tournaments or more.

That is true, and one of my posts also said I'd like 4 stock more, just that it takes too long. 3 stocks take long too, but it's still manageable, as you can see with all tourneys these past years.

And imo 2 stock is taking it a bit too far. At least if we play competitively. I have nothing against 1 stock side events if people like them, but the main event with 2 would just not be good, unless you like to randomize results more.... (I know some people like big upsets and stuff, but when good players can't be consistent enough it won't be fun for them anymore, since efforts won't help enough :: the community would die, because no one would pay money/spend so much time to travel around just to play party games with strangers)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You can't take peoples' mistakes into account when creating a competitive ruleset, not really valid imo

 

[da K.I.D.]

That is true, and one of my posts also said I'd like 4 stock more, just that it takes too long. 3 stocks take long too, but it's still manageable, as you can see with all tourneys these past years.

All these tourneys that have have been taking too gd long.

Typically i really hate comparing Brawl to other games, when discussing things like bans and character viability.

But in terms of the logistics of running a tournament i feel this comparison is viable.

If we were to run Brawl as 2 stock 5/6 minute tournaments. 2/3 rounds per set. It would pretty much be exactly the same as street fighter 4.
Sf4 is 2/3 games which is essentially comparable to 2 stock.
2/3 matches in a set, same as Brawl.
100 seconds per round. When maxed out that is equal to 5 minutes per game in Brawl.

Street fighter 4 is one of the most consistent games out there. Justin wong pretty much always wins. So i really dont see how a game lasting the same amount of time as sf 4 (more if the time limit is 6 minutes in stead of 5) would some how be SOOOOO much more random than ten minutes with 3 stock.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Street Fighter 4 doesn't have nearly as many invincibility frames.

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS would definitely be top tier in 1 or 2 stock games. She's already almost top tier in 3 stock matches.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ZSS would definitely be top tier in 1 or 2 stock games. She's already almost top tier in 3 stock matches.

I hope this is more an observation than trying to give a basis for leaning on way or the other, because it really doesnt matter.

And reflex, are you sure about that. Cus there are these things in sf called DPs. And they are chock full of those things.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There are other reasons why sf4 matches run faster and a lot of it has to do with the metagame at the highest level. If you don't know what I mean then just YouTube vids of any major sf4 tourney and you will see what I mean.

The password is....vortex.

But yes brawl matches tournies do take some time due to the nature of the game itself. I rly don't Get y people say lower tier chars will suddenly get better. They won't. They just get more of a chance to random out a win.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yes it was just an observation.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

They just get more of a chance to random out a win.

...Which makes them better...