iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
That's good, and also thanks for the phanna videos. He has a really creative Samus. I think 10 would be a milestone but it's definitely not impossible for me.
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Official OFFICIAL SUPER-WAVEDASH DISCUSSION! Please Read and Post Here!
- Thread starter Aftermath
- Start date
Violence
Smash Lord
7 for me. I was on fire.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Post your source.
Violence
Smash Lord
You can do it at any height, GIMR, the only thing that matters is that on frame 41, you hold away, and frame 42, you hold towards. So you can like... bomb from the ledge, roll around for a bit, and then SWD if your frames are perfect.
Unless you mean the SWD where you shoot into the air from the edge of a platform, you need to perform an SWD on the very very tip of the edge of a platform to do that, which is pretty hard considering you need to press the direction inward with respect to the platform, and then outward, and land on the very very tip of the edge of the platform on frame 42.
Unless you mean the SWD where you shoot into the air from the edge of a platform, you need to perform an SWD on the very very tip of the edge of a platform to do that, which is pretty hard considering you need to press the direction inward with respect to the platform, and then outward, and land on the very very tip of the edge of the platform on frame 42.
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
Thanks violence!
Btw, did you know that of you wave dash towards an edge you're character will automatically go into there "one foot on edge and dangling" animation. This might make it easier to do the edge swd
Btw, did you know that of you wave dash towards an edge you're character will automatically go into there "one foot on edge and dangling" animation. This might make it easier to do the edge swd
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
so you gotta fall off then back onto the platform? Any way you can give me the frames?
Urgh, my B for all of the doubles postages
Violence
Smash Lord
I have no idea what rocket dashing is.
You have to like... land on the very very very left of a platform, have an input going right on frame 41, and then slam left on frame 42 and you fly.
You have to like... land on the very very very left of a platform, have an input going right on frame 41, and then slam left on frame 42 and you fly.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
I though SWD'ing is based off of the animation of the ball colliding with the ground, not with the frames 41 and 42. It just so happens that normally bombing from the ground makes that 41 and 42.
Pi
Smash Hero
no bcuz you can jump from the ledge, bomb on the ground, slide around a bit, then swd
the one that shoots you off requires an absurd amount of frame specific inputs back to back to do, ur welcome to try but i've only ever been able to manage it in debug menu frame by frame
i wanna say it's 3 or 4 consecutive frame specific inputs
To my understanding, SWD has to do with the character model ****ing up. If you go to Pokemon stadium, or any stage that casts a shadow, you can watch the shadow blink at the same time as frames 41-42. Go to training mode, zoom in, and watch at 1/4th speed to see what I mean if you can't pause it right. This says to me that something happens between those two frames which makes her a physical entity, not, and then one again. I'm not sure how that translates to her moving at such high speeds, but I'm guessing that has something to do with it.
Pi
Smash Hero
The only thing that I can think of is that during those morph frames, 41 & 42, the distance traveled, which is traveled essentially by 'teleporting' gets translated into 'momentum' and kept.
So maybe on frame 40 the game reads her current position, and does not for frame 41, which is where you move the direction you don't want to move, and then re-reads again on frame 42 and conserves the momentum granted by 'teleporting'.
Just a theory, I've not very much insight into how the game works in anything other than frames
So maybe on frame 40 the game reads her current position, and does not for frame 41, which is where you move the direction you don't want to move, and then re-reads again on frame 42 and conserves the momentum granted by 'teleporting'.
Just a theory, I've not very much insight into how the game works in anything other than frames
That is a very interesting theory, however I found this video with another way to simulate a superwave dash with samus's grapple. So I do not know if this disproves your theory I just found it very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ_xPnLTYYc
Pi
Smash Hero
I think that would leave my theory in tact, when you re-tract your grapple it moves your character rapidly toward the spot to which you grappled, in this case the block
also, if you land while grappling it cancels the grapple
looks like he's just timing the re-traction to line up with the landing and canceling of the grapple to get the re-traction momentum
it's a different way of getting a lot of momentum, the grapple one actually makes sense
I don't really understand the swd
also, if you land while grappling it cancels the grapple
looks like he's just timing the re-traction to line up with the landing and canceling of the grapple to get the re-traction momentum
it's a different way of getting a lot of momentum, the grapple one actually makes sense
I don't really understand the swd
I have a theory myself of the super wave dash, that you are trying to move on the moment in which you are transforming back from morph ball into normal samus, and the morph takes precedence over movement because it is programed to occur first, therefore and error occurs that both the movement and morph can not happen simultaneously and the next frame is overloaded with movement that should have been made on the 41st frame. If that makes sense?
Pi
Smash Hero
pretty sure you can move on every individual frame of the SWD, but the movement is not fluid, it's jerky, like SDIing
Why does wavedashing forward while grappling on the tree during the fire transformation of PS makes you fall through it sometimes and grapple the inside of the tree other times? Is there a way to consistently grab the inside without killing yourself (stock cancel).
Pi
Smash Hero
ask plup, he does that **** all the time, no idea how he's so consistent with it
ycz12
Smash Ace
I feel like practicing more on Stadium is a good idea in general. Lots of players have great movement and platform games, but fall apart when a transformation shows up. Myself included.
TKD
Smash Lord
I think SWD is, potentially, extremely useful for Samus.
Samus players (all of them) usually get utterly ***** when cornered near the ledge.
A player that can SWD consistently would have a means to easily escape that situation.
Samus players (all of them) usually get utterly ***** when cornered near the ledge.
A player that can SWD consistently would have a means to easily escape that situation.
Let's consider some things.
First, let's assume that you are 100% consistent with the SWD.
Second, let's assume you are fighting an opponent that doesn't have a disjointed hitbox (or the knowhow to use it) to just swat you while you're bombing.
---
Normally when you are stuck in pressure with any other character, you can punish whiffs or missed L-cancels with a shield grab. Samus, with her 18-frame (That's the number of frames before the first grab-box comes out) grab is almost never going to get consistent punishment without a solid read. That means that 18 frames is already a difficult window to act in without punishment or even simple evasion.
In order to do the SWD, you have to have at least 42 frames of uninterrupted morphball animation to start moving.
You are also quite vulnerable for a while after the SWD starts, which means that you could be hit out of it (whether intentional or not) even if you do safely pull it off.
Lastly, unless you can also consistently time your next move, you may find yourself hanging off the ledge on the other side of the stage. Now you've just put yourself in a different corner to be kept in.
---
I think the best use of SWD is to escape opponents that just came off the spawning platform or to chase enemies that are flying away too fast to catch with conventional means.
First, let's assume that you are 100% consistent with the SWD.
Second, let's assume you are fighting an opponent that doesn't have a disjointed hitbox (or the knowhow to use it) to just swat you while you're bombing.
---
Normally when you are stuck in pressure with any other character, you can punish whiffs or missed L-cancels with a shield grab. Samus, with her 18-frame (That's the number of frames before the first grab-box comes out) grab is almost never going to get consistent punishment without a solid read. That means that 18 frames is already a difficult window to act in without punishment or even simple evasion.
In order to do the SWD, you have to have at least 42 frames of uninterrupted morphball animation to start moving.
You are also quite vulnerable for a while after the SWD starts, which means that you could be hit out of it (whether intentional or not) even if you do safely pull it off.
Lastly, unless you can also consistently time your next move, you may find yourself hanging off the ledge on the other side of the stage. Now you've just put yourself in a different corner to be kept in.
---
I think the best use of SWD is to escape opponents that just came off the spawning platform or to chase enemies that are flying away too fast to catch with conventional means.
TKD
Smash Lord
i think there are moments your opponent gives you time to morph ball and situations in which it's actually a good decision, so i respect your opinion and disagree with it at the moment.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I'm fairly good at SWD. I mainly use it to escape opponents coming down from the platform after respawn. When they start to catch on to the gimmick, I watch them wait patiently on the other end of the stage for me as I stare them down from afar. I also enjoy watching Fox's whiff trying to time their upsmash to hit me out of SWD.
I could do SWD about 80% of my tries before my Wii broke this summer. I haven't been able to practice since.
I use SWD to quickly reach the other side of the stage for edgeguards.
It was recorded some weeks ago, but removed from Twitch for some reason, when I hit my opponent Falco with a ledge hop Nair from the left side of DL64, then SWDed to the right side and grabbed the edge from them. As far as I know, SWD is faster than WDs, so the Falco would have recovered if it wasn't for SWD.
SWD has it's uses in teams too. If you're hit away from the heat, you can SWD to help your team mate again, instead of shooting missiles from afar.
If fighting a horizontally slow character like Peach on a wide stage like PS or DL64, we can out camp them with missiles and SWD to the other side while they try to approach high through the missiles. I did this to a Peach on PS a couple of years ago in a tournament. The Peach wasn't THAT good, so I don't know how legit this is really, but I don't think I could have won the set without this strategy, considering how bad I am vs Peach.
I use SWD to quickly reach the other side of the stage for edgeguards.
It was recorded some weeks ago, but removed from Twitch for some reason, when I hit my opponent Falco with a ledge hop Nair from the left side of DL64, then SWDed to the right side and grabbed the edge from them. As far as I know, SWD is faster than WDs, so the Falco would have recovered if it wasn't for SWD.
SWD has it's uses in teams too. If you're hit away from the heat, you can SWD to help your team mate again, instead of shooting missiles from afar.
If fighting a horizontally slow character like Peach on a wide stage like PS or DL64, we can out camp them with missiles and SWD to the other side while they try to approach high through the missiles. I did this to a Peach on PS a couple of years ago in a tournament. The Peach wasn't THAT good, so I don't know how legit this is really, but I don't think I could have won the set without this strategy, considering how bad I am vs Peach.
Adict
Smash Cadet
imo it depends on the person your playing. if they have decent samus practice and expect it, i dont see it being to useful except to escape under platforms/from respawns or to catch up to them as they are hit stunned or something of that nature. i find that if they except it, that it has enough startup lag for them to react to it in as easy manner and punish the hell out of it.
i use it for more of a mind game tactic. since im pretty dang consistent with it i do it about 85-90% of the time. so when im playing with my friends and they see me morph and im not too close to them for the bomb to affect them, they assume im going to swd. ill purposely mess it up and watch/punish as they prepare something for my body flying across the stage, which works from time to time.
theres also the variance of distance you can go using the swd. i have no idea how it works (i havnt read through this thread but im sure you all know what im talking about). changing up the distance of how far you go can also be quite useful. if theyre expecting you to go all the way across the stage and only end up going like 1/3 of the stage, theres a lot you can do from that aswell.
again, just my opinion lol
i use it for more of a mind game tactic. since im pretty dang consistent with it i do it about 85-90% of the time. so when im playing with my friends and they see me morph and im not too close to them for the bomb to affect them, they assume im going to swd. ill purposely mess it up and watch/punish as they prepare something for my body flying across the stage, which works from time to time.
theres also the variance of distance you can go using the swd. i have no idea how it works (i havnt read through this thread but im sure you all know what im talking about). changing up the distance of how far you go can also be quite useful. if theyre expecting you to go all the way across the stage and only end up going like 1/3 of the stage, theres a lot you can do from that aswell.
again, just my opinion lol
Adict, I used to have a very similar opinion that you have of this technique, that if you can just master it, samus will become that much more viable of a character to use, but there are a lot of problems with this line of thinking. What gets wins with samus is space, good jab pressure, and intelligence (missile spam doesnt hurt either but it does makes you predictable), there is a reason Adict is not up there with HugS, Plup, Wes and Darrel... its because there are ALOT more important aspects to the game itself than any one move. Even foxes that can get 20 multishines dont just use that for every approach, because it would be PREDICTABLE... Just as Icies can wobble, they still NEED TO DEVELOP THE REST OF THEIR GAME FIRST, so that they can compete with the rest of the top players, otherwise they try to grab the entire match and get 4 stocked because of their narrow mindset and predictability.
You are not the only one to have this opinion, and certainly not the only one who has practiced this technique until their fingers bled. But there are 60 frames in a second, and you need to waste 42 of them to set up this super wave dash, where you opponent can jump around you and punish you for even doing a single bomb. This is not a smart tactic for higher level play because how long it takes to set up, and the rewards DO NOT outweigh the possible benefits from it... best case you get a down smash or a grab... which can be accomplished just as easy with pressure on their shield or CC one of their attack.
I do suggest reading this board before you start posting the viability of a long discovered technique masted by others before you. While nothing I am saying is meant to offend you, it is telling you to take this game seriously and not rely on a single technique. Work on developing your MU knowledge, metagame and techskill before all else, because in the end of the day, you can always use work on all of those 3.
You are not the only one to have this opinion, and certainly not the only one who has practiced this technique until their fingers bled. But there are 60 frames in a second, and you need to waste 42 of them to set up this super wave dash, where you opponent can jump around you and punish you for even doing a single bomb. This is not a smart tactic for higher level play because how long it takes to set up, and the rewards DO NOT outweigh the possible benefits from it... best case you get a down smash or a grab... which can be accomplished just as easy with pressure on their shield or CC one of their attack.
I do suggest reading this board before you start posting the viability of a long discovered technique masted by others before you. While nothing I am saying is meant to offend you, it is telling you to take this game seriously and not rely on a single technique. Work on developing your MU knowledge, metagame and techskill before all else, because in the end of the day, you can always use work on all of those 3.
Adict
Smash Cadet
no youre right, the way i worded what i said came across wrong. i was trying to imply that its not the most useful thing to do in play, but it has its circumstances where it can be used, but is limited. i was not trying to compare myself to anyone, nor do i ever believe ill be on their level of play. my life is far to busy to go to tournaments anymore and i play now more with friends in my small town hours away from anyone else. i was just stating my opinion and what i like to do against my friends since they are used to my gameplay, as i said.
and im pretty sure i even said it has enough start up lag for them to punish the hell out of it, so in that case we agree completely.
and im pretty sure i even said it has enough start up lag for them to punish the hell out of it, so in that case we agree completely.
Adict
Smash Cadet
yeah i just got done watching some of the vids from southwestern justice and saw you get medz with a few times lol. i have never given it too much of a try but will definitely give it some thought while i play as ive seen you have done some nifty things with it lol
Extender would be more useful than a standard grapple if it wasn't for the fact that you have to time your grapple to actually grab, as opposed to an automatic grab from a non-extender grapple.
Nothing beats the automatic timing of the standard grab. I think that's more valuable than catching rolls, sidesteps, or jumps with an extender.
Nothing beats the automatic timing of the standard grab. I think that's more valuable than catching rolls, sidesteps, or jumps with an extender.
I think the trade off of having to time the A button and not having air grabs is worth the benefit of having a 3 times longer distance to grab, the ability to force people to be airborne to dodge it, grabbing behind you, grabbing on the way back, grabbing from a platform above/below you, and getting easy tech chases. Sure it's harder (somewhat) and isn't necessary in order to win, but getting consistent with it rewards you unlike a lot of things that are considered useless or less-than-optimal. Additionally, it forces the other player to work around something in this MU that they normally don't have to worry about, and that's always helpful.
PS
Let me add that I'm not saying this is a silver bullet strategy that is going to instantly make you better. I'm saying that there are distinct, calculable advantages to using the extender that outweigh the difficulty curve associated with it. Additionally, the fact that it does have an abundance of practical uses means that it's worth the time investment to learn over other challenging, technical tools that have much more niche applications.
PS
Let me add that I'm not saying this is a silver bullet strategy that is going to instantly make you better. I'm saying that there are distinct, calculable advantages to using the extender that outweigh the difficulty curve associated with it. Additionally, the fact that it does have an abundance of practical uses means that it's worth the time investment to learn over other challenging, technical tools that have much more niche applications.