Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Charizard

[Charey]

I was planning to use Fire Fang this weekend at my local to test it again but I can't go to this one so I will say what I remember from the 3DS custom tourneys. It was a while ago so maybe it wouldn't work against better player now.

Fire fang was a good landing approach option, it was mostly safe on shield if you let the flame push for a bit before biting making hard to shield grab. (I couldn't do it in training mode if I let the flame push the foe away) It's not an all around better move but in some match ups it's good to have when you can't use flamethrower often.

I think both Fire Fang and Fireball cannon have enough of a niche to warrant a set each out of the ten we have. They can be useful in some match-ups.

 

[Steeler]

I think you're seriously, seriously overselling Flamethrower. It's not a bad move, but... unmatched utility? Come on, let's be honst here. Flamethrower isn't THAT good. I've never seen a tournament match (and believe me, I've looked) where I thought to myself "Man, thank god he was using Flamethrower, he'd be screwed without it."

I played a match against a Dedede where I would have been seriously screwed with out it. Fullhop flames was all I really could do safely, and I won the set. Cannon has zero shield pressure... Flamethrower constantly pokes through if you get them halfway in. And hey, a depleted shield is great for Rock Smashes. I wonder how low a shield needs to be for the side specials to poke. Does Cannon do enough damage to return Gordos? I don't know... Even for a waddling fatty like D3, I don't really want him dashing up and powershielding those Cannon shots. I just don't feel like it's putting me at an advantage. It keeps people from short hopping, I guess. Interested in hearing if anyone has ACTUALLY applied this move in matchups like Villager and Duck Hunt. Because right now it just seems like a really slow Villager slingshot. Which doesn't feel good.

 

[Bloodcross]

I've been using 1313

Dragon Rush is cool. And for Rock Hurl, having super armor starting on Frame 1 just sounds more appealing to me. I've been testing it as an anti air option as well. I might have to scrap this tactic and stick to using my normals for anti airing though.

 

[Knee Smasher]

I think you're seriously, seriously overselling Flamethrower. It's not a bad move, but... unmatched utility? Come on, let's be honst here. Flamethrower isn't THAT good. I've never seen a tournament match (and believe me, I've looked) where I thought to myself "Man, thank god he was using Flamethrower, he'd be screwed without it."

Like, I'm cool with it if you say Flamethrower is generally better, but the idea that Charizard somehow needs it is kind of laughable.

I still think the ability of Fireball Cannon to force normally campy players to approach is majorly worth the risk. I'm not saying to bring it to every fight, but I don't think it could single-handedly screw you over, either.

Flamethrower is Charizard's single best move. It is:

1. Charizard's zoning method.
2. An option to cover Charizard's landing, that's far longer-ranged and safer than Rock Smash, although it is less rewarding to hit with.
3. Charizard's main follow-up after Fthrowing/Bthrowing someone off the stage. Fthrow/Bthrow the opponent off-stage to Flamethrower edgeguard is basically Charizard's equivalent of many characters' (Diddy Kong's, Captain Falcon's, ROB's, etc) throw to aerial attack combo.
4. One of Charizard's primary damage-racking methods in general. Flamethrowering an off-stage opponent is basically a free 8-11%.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Charizard:

1, 3, 1/3, 1/3 niche: 3XXX, X1XX, X2XX

1311, 1313, 1331, 1333
niche: 3311, 3313, 1113, 1211, 1213, 1233

I believe we just about have Charizard figured out. My only major uncertainty is whether 1231 is the correct choice for the odd man out in Blast Burn sets, but if you guys have other concerns, please bring them up!

 

[Rashid]

Looks agreeable to me, but I still think Fire Fang deserves at least one set; 2313?. Maybe instead of 3313? I can't imagine having SA 4 frames sooner on down B is beneficial in match-ups where you would zone/camp with FBC.

 

[Swoops]

^ agreed with this as I haven't given up on fire fang yet. Great close range tool to add to jabs and grab. It might be similar in function to flamethrower but it's damage output, shield pressure, and KO potential is pretty solid.

For utility, I think flamethrower wins every time, but FF can be a threatening close range option. Seems to kill earlier than dthrow, does good damage/shield damage, can be confirmed and made relatively safe. Flamethrower has definitely made a huge difference in my matches more than I can count, but I can see fang being very applicable in a rush down charizard.

Charizard is an interesting character where I think his different customs find uses in all sorts of different match ups. Fireball canon can work well with an all out turtle-zard vs another heavy zoner that you can't get close to for example (read duck hunt, villager.) Also in matches where I find dragon rush is very predictable and easily out-prioritized and punished, Blast Burn is an insanely scary trump card.

Fly is pretty universal to have, even if fly high is useful to go deep. But rock hurl is the one custom I have trouble applying. In theory I understand the benefit of having frame 1 super armor, but in practice it seems the AoE of Rock Smash is way too good to give up. If I'm being juggled, the frame 1 super armor does little for me if they are most likely under me not getting hit by the upward flying rocks. It feels like it's limited to ground-level situations, where I can break out of certain things easier, but in exchange for kill power and damage.

Anyone have a similar experience with Rock Hurl?

 

[Steeler]

^ Constantly. The hitbox on Rock Hurl is legitimately **** without Smash's AOE. So I find that, yes, it is frame 1 but seems less useful than Smash because it won't connect in more situations. Let's be real honest here. When do you need frame 1 super armor when someone is ABOVE you? Fly is frame 4 and way stronger. Utilt and usmash are legitimately some of the best options in the game when grounded against someone directly above you, and partly intangible. Uair is super strong and partly intangible. What this means is that the shards are a suboptimal option for catching people above you, the only thing they have over Smash shards. So you are completely reliant on the actual headbutt/rock hit to justify this move Unless you are playing against a character with legit GROUNDED frame traps like Link/Fox jab cancels where they are right in position for that rock (and it's great for that stuff as long as they don't shield it...), Smash is just better. Much stronger reward, safer on shield, more likely to get you out of a juggle. Hurl does less to help you land when they are below you, which Zard desperately needs. Smash does everything Hurl does much better. If the matchup does not REQUIRE frame 1 SA to get out of traps, just take Smash.

 

[Rashid]

Does Rock Hurl help us get out of Fox's double jab lock? I know you can Fly out of the "finishers" (down and up smash) but if it's possible to stop it from happening, that would be better.

Plus I imagine it would stop things like Mario's up tilt chain, Palutena's nair (don't ask how, but I have a Mario player up B out of nair while I was using Palutena...)... Anything else? I also think Rock Smash is better in general.

 

[Steeler]

Yeah it gets out of Fox jab. And any other multihit set ups or moves that Smash doesn't armor but other characters can escape.

Just brainstorming, but I reckon Fang is a strong option when they are on the ledge, like Wario Bite (and Flamethrower). Probably beats every option but ledgeroll... Maybe not ledge attack?

 

[Davregis]

Flamethrower is Charizard's single best move. It is:

1. Charizard's zoning method.
2. An option to cover Charizard's landing, that's far longer-ranged and safer than Rock Smash, although it is less rewarding to hit with.
3. Charizard's main follow-up after Fthrowing/Bthrowing someone off the stage. Fthrow/Bthrow the opponent off-stage to Flamethrower edgeguard is basically Charizard's equivalent of many characters' (Diddy Kong's, Captain Falcon's, ROB's, etc) throw to aerial attack combo.
4. One of Charizard's primary damage-racking methods in general. Flamethrowering an off-stage opponent is basically a free 8-11%.

I would totally agree!

also internet finally came back after ~2 weeks so woohoo

 

[Ben Holt]

Why has everyone dismissed Rising Cyclone? Though it lags a bit, it can get early kills at 50% if you can catch opponents in the air. I would recommend everyone take a second look at it.
My preferred set is 1321.

 

[-LzR-]

Why has everyone dismissed Rising Cyclone? Though it lags a bit, it can get early kills at 50% if you can catch opponents in the air. I would recommend everyone take a second look at it.
My preferred set is 1321.

It's definitely viable, but I heard it's much harder to actually get the strong hit compared to Fly and it weakens our recovery significantly so we can't dive deep with Dragon Rush or Nair.
I think I will give it a shot this weekend and see how it goes.

 

[Steeler]

the problem is that the hits right before the final one have an additional SDI multiplier, making it easier to DI out. those hits also have a strong base knockback value of 100, meaning that when Zard is in rage, it's even easier to get out

Fly
Frame 9-10: 5% 100f/140w 80°
Frame 9-10: 5% 100f/140w 95°
Frame 9-10: 5% 100f/130w 70°
Frame 16-26: [2%]x4 100f/100w 90° 0.3-Hitlag
Frame 16-26: [2%]x4 100f/90w 72° 0.3-Hitlag
Frame 27-28: 4% 70b/150g (KO@ 181%) 75°
Max Damage: 17%
Begins super armor on real frame 4
Enables state transition on real frame 11
Ends super armor on real frame 16
Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 21

Rising Cyclone
Frame 15-16: 4% 100f/100w 100°
Frame 15-16: 4% 100f/80w 90°
Frame 19-39: [2%]x6 70b/40g 135° 0.6-Hitlag 1.2-SDI
Frame 19-39: [2%]x6 105b/30g 90° 0.6-Hitlag 1.2-SDI
Frame 41-41: 6% 70b/160g (KO@ 121%) 70° 1.5-Hitlag
Max Damage: 22%
Begins super armor on real frame 13
Enables state transition on real frame 17
Ends super armor on real frame 19
Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 25

The only pros to Rising Cyclone is 5% more damage overall and stronger knockback. Fly has more vertical range/recovery, hits earlier (9 vs 15) making it a better OoS option, and has earlier super armor (4 vs 13). When you take Fly, I think you are giving up too many things for extra damage and killpower on a move that is already good-not-great on those fronts (well, 17% is pretty great but the knockback is merely good). I'm sure we've all had Fly connect but not hit the final part due to awkward positioning (it helps if they are in front of you/you are moving into them horizontally) but it happens even more with Cyclone.

It IS pretty awesome to kill at insane percents off an up B though, pretty sure this is the strongest one in the game.

Fly
Frame 9-10: 5% 100f/140w 80°
Frame 9-10: 5% 100f/140w 95°
Frame 9-10: 5% 100f/130w 70°
Frame 16-26: [2%]x4 100f/100w 90° 0.3-Hitlag
Frame 16-26: [2%]x4 100f/90w 72° 0.3-Hitlag
Frame 27-28: 4% 70b/150g (KO@ 181%) 75°
Max Damage: 17%
Begins super armor on real frame 4
Enables state transition on real frame 11
Ends super armor on real frame 16
Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 21

Rising Cyclone
Frame 15-16: 4% 100f/100w 100°
Frame 15-16: 4% 100f/80w 90°
Frame 19-39: [2%]x6 70b/40g 135° 0.6-Hitlag 1.2-SDI
Frame 19-39: [2%]x6 105b/30g 90° 0.6-Hitlag 1.2-SDI
Frame 41-41: 6% 70b/160g (KO@ 121%) 70° 1.5-Hitlag
Max Damage: 22%
Begins super armor on real frame 13
Enables state transition on real frame 17
Ends super armor on real frame 19
Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 25

So basically, the pros of Fly are quicker and longer lasting super armor, quicker hitbox, more vertical range/recovery. The pros of Cyclone are more damage and knockback. I think you give up too much when you take Cyclone. Fly already does 17% if you get it all!!

Notice though that the linking hits before the last one use weight dependent knockback (used for moves meant to link like jabs and drill kicks) with Fly and normal knockback with Rising Cyclone. This means that the more rage Zard has, the more unlikely the hits will link correctly. There are some with a particularly high base knockback of 105. This is most likely an intentional move on the developers' parts to make Cyclone more unreliable. AND the increased SDI factor of x1.2? They really, really didn't want this move to be good. Which I respect, if you ever airdodged above a max rage Zard even halfway up the screen and he was able to Cyclone you... you could die at 30% or some crazy shet. A perfect Rock Smash at 0% could legit frame trap into a kill move (you'd have to jump away or die). How's that for a comeback factor?

Maybe this is more legit on larger characters who can't move their whole hurtbox out very well, I haven't messed with it that much. But I bet they still get out fairly easily when Zard has rage.

 

[Ben Holt]

Rising Cyclone is much easier to hit, though. It sucks in opponents, making it an overall better kill move than Fly. Plus, the amount of vertical recovery lost isn't really that much.

 

[meleebrawler]

Rising Cyclone is much easier to hit, though. It sucks in opponents, making it an overall better kill move than Fly. Plus, the amount of vertical recovery lost isn't really that much.

You're not likely to get the final hit if you try to "suck in" your opponents. You kind of need to be
directly under them to increase your chances. And if Zard doesn't want to rush or blitz back to the stage,
he needs all the vertical he can get since his air speed is not good otherwise.

 

[Ben Holt]

You're not likely to get the final hit if you try to "suck in" your opponents. You kind of need to be
directly under them to increase your chances. And if Zard doesn't want to rush or blitz back to the stage,
he needs all the vertical he can get since his air speed is not good otherwise.

Let's be honest, Charizard should always run Dragon Rush. It's far better for racking up damage and for recovery.
I think everyone here is severely overselling Fly. Yea, it has slightly better recovery and can be used out of shield, but it's also far less accurate and has less potential as a kill move. Rising Cyclone's ability to suck in opponents added to its amazing knockback makes it one of Charizard's most potent kill moves. At 50-60%, you're almost guaranteed a KO in the air, giving Charizard a good aerial kill move.
You can post frame data all you want, but in practicality, Rising Cyclone is much more reliable for KOs.

 

[Steeler]

We need to look into what the optimal DI is for Cyclone... We need to know how reliably people can get out, and from what positions. Pretty sure holding up and away from Zard's momentum is best. I'm all for this move being good, but from looking at the data and my ~50% success rate in limited testing, it doesn't seem like it is. It would also help if Zard had a REAL UP THROW WTF did Sakurai think he'd be OP with all of his awesome juggle options?

Also, Flare Blitz is probably the better recovery move in matchups where characters can't break the 14% armor safely. And/or if they can easily clash with or hit Dragon Rush. Or they can quickly chase or punish a Dragon Rush from up high. Flare Blitz is pretty much guaranteed ledge snap if you do it right. The armor and also, unlike Ike Side B or Jiggs Rollout, NO ONE wants to willingly take a FB to block you. Plus you don't go into helpless. But it is a lot less safe if you don't ledgesnap out of it. However, beware characters that safely spawn stuff that force FB to collide. Luma, ROB gyro I think, Peach veggies maybe? Also don't get caped with any side B lol

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So Fly High seems pretty niche to me all things said, even if you nerf your up-B recovery with Blast Burn. How do people feel about:

Charizard:

1311, 1313, 1331, 1333
1113, 1211, 1213, 3311, 2311, 1321

This drops Blast Burn down to two sets (with or without Rock Hurl) and Fireball Cannon down to one set (without Rock Hurl) but opens a slot for both Fire Fang and Rising Cyclone. This basically makes your option set with Charizard simply...

You can use any side special in combination with either Rock Smash or Rock Hurl and otherwise defaults.
You can use either alternate neutral special but must do so with Dragon Rush and otherwise defaults.
Fly High must be paired with Flamethrower and Dragon Rush but may have either Rock Smash or Rock Hurl.
Rising Cyclone must be paired with Flamethrower, Dragon Rush, and Rock Smash.

Are there any objections?

 

[-LzR-]

It has 1311 so so I am happy about it. Nice work.

 

[Steeler]

I don't think we need a Fly High set at all. I'd rather have extra Cyclone/side B sets. Because at the end of the day, those can win you matches. Fly High barely makes a difference in your recovery and you lose a powerful attack vs people above and next to you in the air. A Cannon set with Blitz is worth considering against Dedede/Villager. On that note, there should probably be more Blitz sets. Take off 1333 and 1331. Add 3111 and... Something else. Good list already.

 

[Mmeaninglessnamee]

Well, we've got a Fireball Cannon set in that list, which was the sole move I came to this thread to push, so i'm okay with this list.

 

[PhantomTriforce]

I don't think we need a Fly High set at all. I'd rather have extra Cyclone/side B sets. Because at the end of the day, those can win you matches. Fly High barely makes a difference in your recovery and you lose a powerful attack vs people above and next to you in the air. A Cannon set with Blitz is worth considering against Dedede/Villager. On that note, there should probably be more Blitz sets. Take off 1333 and 1331. Add 3111 and... Something else. Good list already.

I think 1333 is way more useful than 3111. Charizard doesn't need Flare Blitz when he has Dragon Rush.

 

[Swoops]

So Fly High seems pretty niche to me all things said, even if you nerf your up-B recovery with Blast Burn. How do people feel about:

Charizard:

1311, 1313, 1331, 1333
1113, 1211, 1213, 3311, 2311, 1321

This drops Blast Burn down to two sets (with or without Rock Hurl) and Fireball Cannon down to one set (without Rock Hurl) but opens a slot for both Fire Fang and Rising Cyclone. This basically makes your option set with Charizard simply...

You can use any side special in combination with either Rock Smash or Rock Hurl and otherwise defaults.
You can use either alternate neutral special but must do so with Dragon Rush and otherwise defaults.
Fly High must be paired with Flamethrower and Dragon Rush but may have either Rock Smash or Rock Hurl.
Rising Cyclone must be paired with Flamethrower, Dragon Rush, and Rock Smash.

Are there any objections?

Yea, I'm all for this list. I mean you cover the essential sets, and I think that Fly High sets do warrant a place for max survivability and a game plan more focused on just surviving, racking up damage, and getting edge guard/dthrow kills when possible. I think they might be pretty solid sets if we go back to 3 stocks. I personally don't like losing Fly, but with UTilt and U-Smash you can cover a lot of the options Fly does.

Plus, then we have room for the most important alternate sets and a few niche sets. I honestly don't see anything important that we're losing.

 

[Ryusuta]

Charizard doesn't need Flare Blitz when he has Dragon Rush.

Truer words were never spoken about our orange behemoth.

Well, we've got a Fireball Cannon set in that list, which was the sole move I came to this thread to push, so i'm okay with this list.

I'm very much in favor of the move, too, so I'm also glad to see this. I genuinely think it's a highly underrated addition to his repertoire, particularly in some matchups. It's a shame that you have to commit to it for at least three shots, but it's still very good, in my opinion.

 

[wha-ha-ha]

The list looks great, however I would most DEFINITELY replace 1321 with 1323 or 3323.

(I personally use 3323 right now, but I've been considering trying out 1323 recently anyway and it seems like including both 1323 AND 3323 is probably just a pipedream of mine, unless we somehow remove another set to make room. For what it's worth, I like fireball cannon and thus 3323 better because you can use it for anti-camping and near-guaranteed forcing of low recoveries, but I understand that flamethrower is more mainstream. Would be interested in conversations on 1323 vs 3323 though if folks are into that, and would be willing to go up to bat for fireball cannon. Imo these two are the best possible rising cyclone sets and it's just sort of a tossup/matter of preference there with one not being strictly "better" than the other at least as far as I can tell.)

ANYWAY, I know there's a lot of rising cyclone hate, but as it turns out landing the good hits of rising cyclone is ridiculously easy when using it in midair, and rock hurl just so happens to be the perfect move to set up aerial rising cyclone. The added height of the rocks either reaches up high to hit the opponent or sends them upward at the perfect angle on a direct hit such that you can follow up afterwards with the move once you react in time to their DI and any potential air dodge they may do, which is fairly simple and something you can read/condition during a match pretty effectively. It should go without saying that aerial rising cyclone is absolutely no joke, as it can kill at like 50%, which is ridiculous.

As far as I'm concerned any rising cyclone set should always have rock hurl to accompany it. The two moves in combination with each other is broken and amazing .

On the matter of 3323 and 1323 being the best rising cyclone sets (in no particular order), I say the following:

I just don't see 1321 or any other rising cyclone set besides xx23 being as good as those sets due to the reasons mentioned above. When you then consider how dragon rush is pretty much the undeniable best side b available to charizard and fire fang is kinda lackluster, 1323 and 3323 are just about the only two reasonable choices left, not only putting them a cut above all the other rising cyclone sets but also making them pretty much the only rising cyclone sets we'd need in my opinion.

I'd say it's worth adding both sets in light of this, but I'll leave that up to yall to decide (also I acknowledge that I'm bringing in hella bias as a 3323 player)

 

[Steeler]

I like your reasoning and you have convinced me that it is worth a custom slot. How much rage do you need for a mid air Cyclone to kill at 50%? I still think Fly is more optimal... I've gotten good at using it out of shield and it's ridiculously good. It makes the Peach matchup feel trivial. Cyclone is just too slow on the super armor/hitbox and Fly is still very good at catching air dodges for kills, albeit not as early. If we need to limit it to just one Cyclone set, it should be with Flamethrower. The reason I take Hurl is against fast characters with strong combos or frame traps that I need Hurl for - Fireball Cannon is terrible in those matchups.

 

[wha-ha-ha]

Not sure about rage, but in terms of fly vs rising cyclone I think a big reason why people see cyclone as laggier is precisely because they use it from the ground - the move has way more startup on the ground than in the air, using it in the air is actually fairly speedy in comparison from what I've seen. Also the main purpose of hurl in the setup is to use into rising cyclone (though still as a defensive option sometimes, more of an offensive defence option ), so the usage of it is somewhat different than standard anyway re matchups. I guess the main thing is getting used to using the moves differently - try jumping out of shield and immediately using cyclone to get it out faster, or indeed rock hurl out of shield -> aerial cyclone. It just requires a different style of play I guess - almost all of my kills end up being aerial rising cyclone off the top or smash attacks following low (fireball cannon induced) recovery situations when playing 3323.

 

[Ryusuta]

Honestly, I don't think there's a MASSIVE difference between the two. for recovery purposes, Rising Cyclone doesn't go as far, but the difference really is kind of negligible. It has a better knockback if it hits, but it's very common for that final hit not to come out. I'm just not sure yet. I think I prefer Rising Cyclone, but I can see the issues with the frame data being an issue.

 

[DrChops]

I am completely baffled by the hate Rising Cyclone has gotten in this thread. The move is borderline OP. Breakdown:

Pros:
Much easier to land than normal fly (larger hit boxes)
Good damage (~22% for all hits)
Obscene killing power. (Kills Rosalina at 50% on BF)
I'd argue slightly less punishable on miss than normal fly

Con:
Final hit can miss (~30% of the time)
Less vertical recovery (Not a big loss since Zard already has great recovery)

I'd only recommend using Rising Cyclone with dragon rush since dragon rush makes up for the loss of recovery and is great at raking up damage.

Just general thoughts:

Dragon rush is not as good as a kill move as Flare Blitz. A lot of people seem to be arguing that dragon rush is the better kill option because to can use it as a kind of edge guard. Honestly, that's borderline crazy. Any decent player will see a flying - spinning - lizard of death coming their way from the stage and simply air dodge it. Now if you hit them on the stage and carry them off, okay. But if you are already so close to the edge of the stage, Flare Blitz would probably kill outright.

With this said, dragon rush is clearly the better move for some of the other reasons stated in this thread, but not because of its killing power.

Fire fang is useless. It's a slow, strong move that takes the place of one of Charizards best tools. Zard doesn't need another slow, strong move, Zard needs spacing tools, safe punish options and edge guards, which flamethrower and Fire Cannon are.

Sinking Skull is bad. Nothing new to report. I think we all know this.

Rock Hurl is alright. The quicker armor is nice, but I do miss the killing power and damage from Rock Smash. I'd say these two are pretty even. I hightly recommend Rock Hurl for rush down characters though. Pick your favorite.

My preferred sets:
1321 (Like it for heavy characters, DK, Ganon etc)
1323 (good for Sheik, Fox, Pikachu etc.)
3113 (Projectile heavy characters. Only using flare blitz as a kill move)

 

[DrChops]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Charizard:

1, 3, 1/3, 1/3 niche: 3XXX, X1XX, X2XX

1311, 1313, 1331, 1333
niche: 3311, 3313, 1113, 1211, 1213, 1233

I believe we just about have Charizard figured out. My only major uncertainty is whether 1231 is the correct choice for the odd man out in Blast Burn sets, but if you guys have other concerns, please bring them up!

Rising Cyclone over Blast Burn all day. Similar killing potential but it is faster, easier to land (for me at least) and no recoil. Zard doesn't need a Warlock Punch with added recoil.

 

[fallenangemon0]

Rising Cyclone over Blast Burn all day. Similar killing potential but it is faster, easier to land (for me at least) and no recoil. Zard doesn't need a Warlock Punch with added recoil.

I respectfully disagree. Using 1211, I still get the safety of Flamethrower, Rock Smash's defensive and offensive utility, good OoS option with Fly, and something dangerous AF when fighting in the opponents face, which is how I feel Charizard is best played. He doesn't really have tools to zone with at all, so if you're going to play a rush-down game, I think you should play it as dangerously as possible. I haven't studied the exact kill ranges for Blast Burn/Rising Cyclone, and I am indeed curious to compare the tradeoff of the two. I am just recently obsessed with playing a more "InYourFaceZard" and Blast Burn can make some of the heaviest punishes I have ever seen for easy kills.

 

[Steeler]

I find that Blast Burn is not that much more powerful than Flare Blitz to warrant sacrificing the superior range and speed of FB... Or everything that comes with DR.

 

[fallenangemon0]

What do you find most valuable about the range of Flare Blitz? Outside of the obvious recovery option.

In what instances is the range of FB/DR a huge benefit? Does it eat through most projectiles? Are there often opportunities to make full-screen punishes with it? Will using DR at close range drag the opponent all the way through the move until the final hit?

I haven't played enough with Dragon Rush to know if I love it more that Blast Burn. Punishing Rolls, bad get-up options on read, and out-trading weaker moves with Blast Burn without the risk of sending me veering off stage on miss actually seems like a better option to me. Even off very minor amounts of rage, Blast Burn is KO-ing chumps as low as 50%.

 

[DrChops]

What do you find most valuable about the range of Flare Blitz? Outside of the obvious recovery option.

In what instances is the range of FB/DR a huge benefit? Does it eat through most projectiles? Are there often opportunities to make full-screen punishes with it? Will using DR at close range drag the opponent all the way through the move until the final hit?

I haven't played enough with Dragon Rush to know if I love it more that Blast Burn. Punishing Rolls, bad get-up options on read, and out-trading weaker moves with Blast Burn without the risk of sending me veering off stage on miss actually seems like a better option to me. Even off very minor amounts of rage, Blast Burn is KO-ing chumps as low as 50%.

I've tried playing with Blast Burn, and I've really tried to like it. I would love nothing more than to see Blast burn be useful because I love the idea of a really powerful punishing move. However, when ever I play with blast burn, it is way too slow to actually land on a good opponent. Rising Cyclone is as fast as fly (or very, very close). The only way I could see BB being useful is on HARD reads because it is way too slow to punish rolls or smashes.

I'd love to see a Charizard use it well. If you can, we should play a few matches because I'd love to learn.

 

[Steeler]

FB eats through most projectiles outside of the big, chargeable ones and the solid items. DR will clash with most projectiles (even Fox laser wtf?). Both moves are great at catching people landing on the ground at a distance. I do think the lower range on Burn is really cool when FB would send you off stage. But @ DrChops summarized the problem with the move. It is too slow to really land unless the opponent is in a terrible position and just can't move out of the way in 30 frames... or puts themselves in a terrible position... Or you read a ledge option, which is the best use of the move for sure. But this move has some of the worst punishment in the game... Like 8 or 9% on whiff, 16% if you hit anything PLUS whatever they can do to you.

The best way to put it is that this move is what Falcon Punch would be if it were better balanced to be usable 1v1. BB is faster to come out, it moves, it lasts a while. Okay. But you have FB and DR as options? Why would you give up those great punish + recovery moves for a usable Falcon Punch? Hell, BB is best at ledge stuff but DR is AMAZING because if you ledge trump and force a vulnerable ledge grab, DR will guaranteed SCOOP THEM UP FROM UNDERNEATH. Or you can just use it timed to hit right when they choose their ledge option. It's really good. And you will always be able to jump and DR back to sweetspot the ledge.

 

[fallenangemon0]

Interesting points. As I never want Charizard to be far out of grab game range, I immediately fell in love with the move. Accurate power and KO%s have been studied? Do BB and FB scale differently with rage? I like the move best on characters with bad recovery/edge options, or characters that love throwing out strong options to out prioritize Charizard (Lil Mac, Bowser, ZSS)

I'd like to go a few rounds with someone here to mess around with it. Sounds like a great means to get points and ideas exchange views. I'd definitely like to see Rising Cyclone in use!

 

[Davregis]

I've tried playing with Blast Burn, and I've really tried to like it. I would love nothing more than to see Blast burn be useful because I love the idea of a really powerful punishing move. However, when ever I play with blast burn, it is way too slow to actually land on a good opponent. Rising Cyclone is as fast as fly (or very, very close). The only way I could see BB being useful is on HARD reads because it is way too slow to punish rolls or smashes.

I'd love to see a Charizard use it well. If you can, we should play a few matches because I'd love to learn.

BB is harder than falcon punch I swear. *EEE* on startup, lots of visuals, no range, and if you smack a shield, it's almost over!
BB is just selfdestruct in a can, I swear, missing one is like 20% or whatever and THEN a free combo for the opponent it's dumb

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah ever since I learned Dragon Rush can say no to lasers I forgot about Blast Burn and haven't looked back.

But I am liking Rising Cyclone more then I should. Seems perfect for punishing airdodges.

 

[Steeler]

our EVO sets are pretty bad outside of the most important ones. i guess this doesn't really matter after EVO until the next massive tourney that doesn't allow 3DS upload but i can't sleep so here ya go

1311, 1313, 1331, 1333, 1113, 1211, 1213, 3311, 2311, 1321

for starters, let's figure out the moves we should NEVER use in a tournament match

Blast Burn, Fly High, Sinking Headbutt, Fire Fang

Dragon Rush is very good of course, and Flare Blitz is still good when you know you can armor something or catch a vulnerable landing. Blitz is situationally useful though, whereas DR is great from just a mobility standpoint, helps patch up Zard's slowness in the air. Taking Blast Burn is a huge downgrade in terms of recovery and hitting stuff on stage, and is even MORE situational than FB. It's just such a downgrade, and with Zard now killing reliably off grabs you don't need to sacrifice that much for a bad kill move. I think it's doing a disservice to Ganon and Falcon mains when we take this move. I guarantee they would 100% take DR over their Warlock/Falcon punches any day.

Fly High's recovery buff is marginal compared to Fly, and you lose the terrific out of shield option of Fly and the airdodge punish of both alternatives. Why would you do this

Sinking Headbutt is the worst custom move for its slot in the game, bar none.

Fire Fang, I think, should also be on the list of moves you never take. I am sure it's the move some of you are most likely to disagree with. It is unsafe on shield (you can get DK fsmashed). It doesn't help you gimp people. You now have lost a constant projectile that does decent damage and follows up from up throws and can gimp people and can protect you when landing (learn how to b-reverse and turnaround and wavebounce this and you are instantly a top 5 zard in the world, it's so good and i am working on it). Cannon has niche use against characters with bad mobility that rely on projectiles you can cancel with Cannon. Plus our grab now kills reliably while being faster than Fang, so you really don't need the kill power from your neutral b slot. So why take it? It's like a Wario Bite that doesn't go through shield.

Can we agree that these moves should never be taken? That eliminates

1331, 1333, 1211, 2311, and 1213. gawd half of our EVO sets are ****

This leaves us with

1311, 1313, 1113, 3311, 1321

and more room to mix and match DR/Blitz and Smash/Hurl with Cyclone and Cannon.

I do respect the power of Cyclone, the difference between it and Fly is like the difference between Blitz and Rush. Fly/Rush are better, more useful moves but the alternative is powerful and still usable as a punish in certain situations. But seriously, I killed a Sheik cleanly at 76% pre-Fly at max rage. From the base of Town and City, not in the air. That's an insane percent for an up B out of shield with frame 4 armor and frame 9 hit. But I respect the move for Zards that don't up B out of shield and only attack with up B on airdodge punishes and such. Dthrow is now a great setup for those shenanigans.

Fireball Cannon is probably worth taking against Duck Hunt, Villager, and Dedede (is there anyone else with crappy mobility/approach that likes a projectile vulnerable to Cannon? does Cannon beat Mega Man lemons?). I don't think you need Cannon and Hurl on the same set (3113, 3313, 3323, 3123, etc), the characters you want Cannon for don't have strong frame trap strings and you probably need as much damage as possible when you armor something since they play keepaway.

So here are the sets we could add, somewhat ordered for viability.

1323 - Cyclone with Hurl, if you need frame 1 armor against Fox and friends, and also want to try cheesing a KO on airdodges
1123 - Same as above, but with Blitz because you're playing yellow Zard and feel like cheesing SUPER HARD for KOs
1121 - Just Cyclone, don't need frame 1 armor but still need that up B cheese
3111 - Cannon with Blitz
3321 - Cannon and DR with Cyclone
3121 - Cannon and Cyclone

I think these are the only sets I can conceive of being worthwhile. One of the sets would have to be left out, which I think should be a Cannon set, probably 3121.