Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Charizard

[Steeler]

Also, it's very easy for Cyclone's final hitbox to whiff, so sometimes you don't actually get all that kill power when you land that move.

 

[Mmeaninglessnamee]

I'm pretty disappointed in Charizard's custom sets that have been decided on here for completely ignoring Fireball Cannon. I know it's been discussed in the thread, but that discussion does not come across in the movesets. If I'm at a custom tournament using the O.S.C.M., i'd really like to be able to use more than flamethrower, and the current sets don't give anyone that option. (Unless you want to go 3333, which is sub-optimal

Sure, it's not a very good projectile, but it has RANGE. Charizard has no other options to reach across the entire stage, which is invaluable for tacking on damage offstage or just harassing far-away opponents.

If Charizard wants to play a bit campy, it can with this move.
* It's aimable, so people can't easily jump over it to approach
* It destroys enemy projectiles, so charizard can't be ranged-out while locked into the move
* It's a good opening move of a match. I'm sorry, did you want to start out the match actually doing something? Have some flames.

So what moveset do I suggest:
3311

Fireball cannon (for reasons above)
Dragon Rush for it's piercing, no-special-fall, no self-damage advantages over Flare Blitz
Fly instead of Fly High to keep the move's hitboxes over height, since dragon rush should be getting you back to stage fine
Rock Smash. This one's debatable, it could also be rock hurl (and thus closer to 3333) just as effectively.

 

[Rashid]

I also agree with Fireball Cannon. It's amazing at forcing approaches and eating double jumps. You just have to be careful when using it; you're forced to shoot at least 3 times before you can stop. 3311 or 3313 are alright.

 

[mimgrim]

But Flamethrower is just such a better tool in neutral and Zard is already limited in what he wants to use in neutral (Grab, Jab, Nair) that having more useful tools for the neutral is more important. This is largely why Dragon Rush > Flare Blitz. Fireball Cannon might be able to force approaches (I actually doubt just how well it can do that) but it's a rather risky move and the reward just doesn't fit and isn't nearly as good in the neutral state. Besides the threat of FB/DR should be enough to force your opponent to approach anyways.

 

[Steeler]

I think Fireball Cannon is worth looking into as a potential gimp on certain recoveries, especially those with considerable startup. We all know how amazing Flamethrower is at edgeguarding when angled over the edge (if you don't, please learn!) but Cannon might have a use because it reaches further than Flamethrower and never diminishes (the only problems with Flamethrower in this scenario). I haven't tested it but I'm pretty sure it screws Dark/Pit's recoveries completely.

 

[meleebrawler]

Don't really see a GIMP with Cannon, unless you sniped a jump from someone with poor
recovery. More like maybe causing them to miss the edge in panic. You're dealing
really low damage so you could be sitting there for a while.

 

[Funkermonster]

Am I the only one who actually likes Fire Fang?

 

[Spirst]

Am I the only one who actually likes Fire Fang?

What uses are you getting from it and who are you using it for? Flamethrower is too good as a momentum-killer/approach option/edgeguard that I can't imagine seriously running something else. Fireball Cannon, I can kinda see the potential of but Fire Fang? I'm iffy on it.

 

[meleebrawler]

It's kind of like a non-grabbing version of Wario's Bite.

 

[-LzR-]

It would be a decent move if Flamethrower wasn't the move that made Charizard Charizard. Flamethrow is too good in this game and nothing is worth giving it up.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So I not so secretly really like this character. Our current six sets are:

1311
1331
1131
1231
1313
1113

Honestly I think all of these sets are pretty good sets that fill a lot of needs with 1313 being, IMO, the best overall (1311 is really good too, but I just find down-3 worth it in so many tense situations). Either way, I don't think any of these six really need dropped; it's just a question of how to fill the other four.

I agree Fireball Cannon should have at least one set, maybe 3311 or 3313, possibly both if we have room. Fireball Cannon really is a lot worse than Flamethrower but isn't quite useless and does some unique things Charizard can't do otherwise. Fire Fang is fun but should never be used at a competitive level; Flamethrower is just too safe on block to make a move like Fire Fang make sense for Charizard though Fire Fang would be pretty good on a lot of other characters.

I want more Blast Burn sets, mostly 1213. Here's the deal with Blast Burn. It's not a good move overall, but it can instantly change matches off one hard read, especially against light characters. If you're fighting a lightweight who has a moveset very good at shutting down your side special game in general (like Pikachu), Blast Burn can be a logical move to pack. You just play the game mostly without side special until you get a hard read and then in one move win the game by killing at 60% or something stupid like that. I don't think Sinking Skull has real synergy here, and honestly I think Sinking Skull is an absurdly horrible move that no one should ever use. It has tons of recovery (making it relatively easy to mash out of), it has no armor, it has poor hitboxes, and generally it's a dreadful move. It doesn't matter for EVO, but 1213 is also a seriously extremely good teams set for Charizard.

1333 might warrant consideration for a set as the most conservative possible Charizard build, what you pick when you're really scared to commit to anything in a match-up. It has absolute maximum recovery and the down-B that is overall safest to just throw out along with Flamethrower which is a prime safety move if I've ever seen one.

I'm not completely opposed to adding one single Rising Cyclone set, probably 1321 or 1323. Rising Cyclone is a pretty poor move, but it does hit stupid hard if you happen to make it work. IMO Blast Burn is mostly better for a desperate power move custom special pick. I wish using slots responsibly weren't a concern as 1221 Charizard is the most YOLO of Charizards and makes men grow chest hair by using it, but that set is seriously ridiculously non-viable and should almost definitely not be included.

I'm thinking of adding 1213, 1333, one of 3311 and 3313, and then one of 1321 and 1323 right now. Any thoughts on the wisdom of this or on the specifics of which armor move best synergizes with the non-standard options? The good news is that I'm really wanting to make it out to the Wichita tournament tomorrow (even if team Lawrence is making it hard to sort out carpools); if that pans out, I'll hopefully be able to discuss these sets with Steeler in person which should be extremely helpful.

 

[Rashid]

I think we've already come to the conclusion that Rising Cyclone is pretty subpar compared to the other two. And after spending some time with Fly High, I'm not really sure if it's worth losing Fly.

I'm honestly not sure about 1333 and 3313. You might as well use 3333 at that point, no? (or are we dropping those now?)

 

[Mmeaninglessnamee]

I'm not really sure if it's worth losing Fly.

You might as well use 3333 at that point, no? (or are we dropping those now?)

As you've pointed out yourself, 3333 isn't as good an option because you use Fly High, when you'd prefer Fly. As a couple people have said above, with expanding the number of sets, we should have a fireball cannon set anyway.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think we've already come to the conclusion that Rising Cyclone is pretty subpar compared to the other two. And after spending some time with Fly High, I'm not really sure if it's worth losing Fly.

I'm honestly not sure about 1333 and 3313. You might as well use 3333 at that point, no? (or are we dropping those now?)

We are dropping those now. 3333 does not seem like a good Charizard set and won't be used.

 

[TheASDF]

I think we've already come to the conclusion that Rising Cyclone is pretty subpar compared to the other two. And after spending some time with Fly High, I'm not really sure if it's worth losing Fly.

I'm honestly not sure about 1333 and 3313. You might as well use 3333 at that point, no? (or are we dropping those now?)

Yeah, the idea is we're potentially dropping 2222/3333 as well as filling in the extra two slots for uploading, for tournaments that don't allow it, as EVO is doing.

I'm thinking of adding 1213, 1333, one of 3311 and 3313, and then one of 1321 and 1323 right now.

I'll agree on 1213 and 1333, as well as a Fireball Cannon set. I think in terms of the actual applications, the difference between Rock Smash or Rock Hurl is negligible, with the only major difference between the speed of the armour and the actual power. Don't think there'll necessarily be more people for one over the other so I'd just pick one and throw it in. (If I had to pick, I'd probably go for Rock Hurl since it adds a little bit of safety that you give up going from Flamethrower to Fireball Cannon.) Not sure how much demand Rising Cyclone will actually have but the last set could support any one of the unused customs, and I guess it's as good a choice as any. It probably has more general utility than Fire Fang or Sinking Skull, I guess. Again, I'd probably run Rock Hurl with Rising Cyclone.

 

[HavocThunder]

Put my name on the list of folks who like Fireball Cannon! I love this move because it's amazing at wasting time and frustrating your opponent. If you have no problem sitting back, being obnoxious, and using it at max range, it's a great way to condition your opponent so you can flare blitz/blast burn them later.

It's also a safe way to get free percent off a lot of knockdowns too far away for Flare Blitz. After taking a certain amount of blocked hits from FC, you can instantly break the opponent's shield with Flare Blitz. I want to say 4-6 hits? It's really easy to do if you notice a lot of shielded Fireball Cannons and makes the threat of FB even scarier. If you can do it with FB, it might be possible with other moves.

I really like to use (jump or run back) Flare Blitz defensively on predictable approaches, so I'm really starting to warm up to Blast Burn. A lot. It goes nowhere but that suddenly makes it THE best meaty attack in the entire game, hands down. I almost wish it didn't move forward at all. There's not many attacks that let you just dominate the ledge in a million different ways at once on a good read, and FB can't do that. I've also had some interesting success jumping backwards and timing it so the opponent grabs the ledge into it/rolls into it/recovers into it/etc. Can you dodge through this move if it's used in the air? You just sit there, a spinning vortex of death, so I wonder if you can catch people coming down with it.

I think it has some redundancy with Rock Smash in terms of range and frame 1 SA is hype so I run Rock Hurl with it. BB also stinks against characters who throw projectiles, so I usually run Fireball Cannon with it, too. 3313 is super safe, 3113 is full of knockdown shenanigans, but I think 3213 gives a lame Charizard solid options in a variety of situations. At the very least, it's what I use when I'm tired of abusing Dragon Rush

 

[Regulas]

So while I'm hardly a great player what I have observed from high level play for the base moves plus some thoughts on the options. Also people seem to be comparing moves too readily to their variations and not to how useful it would be on the characters kit on a whole, like would it be better than some other attack choice like just a strait grab, does it offer a unique option for certain situations? etc.


Flamethrower: Contrary to how the playerbase seems to feel (who love it), in tourney play this appears to be basically worthless, it’s only ever used for edge guard and seems a poor punishable choice at that.

- Fire Fang: Is this any better at punishing or edgeguarding then other options? If yes then it could be great if not then it’s worthless.

- Fireball Cannon: This move appears to have potential for its range either as a projectile counter or otherwise and given how useless regular Flame is seems a default choice even if it's situational.

Flare Blitz: Used expansively as a range punish option with ok knockback. Probably the most heavily used special (more due to the lack of use of specials though).

- Blast Burn: Loss of range probably makes this not great, though how it compares to other choices would be the deciding factor. Does it have any other advantages? Is it enough to finish earlier maybe?

- Dragon Rush: The biggest question: Is it worth the loss of damage/knockback? Is it safe enough to use outside of punish? Over other moves? This seems like it comes down to how much you care about the self damag really.

Fly: I only see this used for recover, maybe because it’s not very safe on a miss?

- Rising Cyclone: The loss of recovery might weaken this drastically so this is probably a bad choice for that alone.

- Fly High: Given how rarely I see Fly used as an attack option this seems to be default better.

Rock Smash: Used sporadically primarily for armour.

- Sinking Skull: As with a lot of choices this would only be good if it has a notable advantage over other punish options (can you get signifcatly more damage out of it or something?) and the loss of a unique option (armour) still seems to trump any advantage it gives.

- Rock Hurl: Seeing as the move is mostly used for amrour to begin with this move almost seems like it’s better by default.

So as a newb: 3133 or 3333 seems the main choices, unless one of the dmg options is worthwhile.

 

[DunnoBro]

Fireball Cannon vs Flamethrower:

Definitely seems matchup specific.

Flamethrower seems like anti-rushdown/pressure, and Cannon seems like anti-camp.

Against characters with good movement options, or the ability to punish at mid range, flamethrower is pretty risky and has little utility.

However, charizard definitely has trouble approaching certain characters. As a duck hunt, I was definitely annoyed more by the fire bomber than flame thrower since it disallowed me from taking advantage of his slow speed to set up far away.

Though as sheik I got annoyed more by the flamethrower disallowing me to easily punish landings. (Rock hurl was definitely more annoying though)

 

[Davregis]

Regulas- OoS Fly is a legit enough killmove, while Dragon Rush is as good or better a killmove than Blitz due to offstage usage. The self damage really isn't anywhere near the deciding factor with Rush-- it's the godlike punish power of the move.

 

[Regulas]

Regulas- OoS Fly is a legit enough killmove, while Dragon Rush is as good or better a killmove than Blitz due to offstage usage. The self damage really isn't anywhere near the deciding factor with Rush-- it's the godlike punish power of the move.

Fly seems best against jump heavy characters, but even then is extremly risky a move espeically when you have his throw anyway. And heck even when it hits it can sometimes be punished if it's not very solid

As for rush unless you are pretty close I don't see how it's dmg compares to blitz (in test it seems pretty weak even dealing like 2-6%), and if you're close you again might want other options. The fact that you can freely dash without hurting yourself though does seem to make it more worthwhile. If it were very safe I could see it being more usable maybe.

Also using rush to go offstage (or blitz) is an easy way to suicide.

 

[Spirst]

Dragon rush is more of a positional advantage than just pure damage. It does about 11% I believe (nerfed from 15% pre-patch) but the fact that it carries the other player with you doesn't allow a reset to neutral. It keeps Charizard in advantage which is crucial considering how good his advantage game is. If you Dragon Rush and fly offstage, buffer a dragon rush with your double jump in the opposite direction and you should almost always make it back even if you did so at the ledge.

It's not always the damage output that matters. Flare blitz does like 19% with a recoil of about 9%. That's fine and all but Dragon Rush will get more usage per match considering it has no recoil and can lead to other setups. No startup sound indication makes it less predictable and it can be used for things that flare blitz can't reliably do like getting back onto the stage from the ledge and so forth.

 

[Steeler]

Yeah, I regularly KO with Dragon Rush when both characters are around 90% by just carrying them off stage a bit. If they are near the ledge, it's almost as good a KO move as Flare Blitz. Which is insane. And MOST IMPORTANTLY, as Spirst said, the positional advantage is HUGE. BECAUSE ZARD'S NEUTRAL GAME SUCKS. But with how much easier it is to hit this move, it really helps him out so much. The point of the move is to push people offstage.

 

[-LzR-]

Flamethrower: Contrary to how the playerbase seems to feel (who love it), in tourney play this appears to be basically worthless, it’s only ever used for edge guard and seems a poor punishable choice at that.

Did you just say Flamethrower is worthless? It's one of our best moves. It's what allows us to say STOP for a second and get some breathing room.

 

[PhantomTriforce]

I believe the best sets are 1333 and 3333. The hitbox on up b is worthless, we might as well have the little bit of extra height. Rock hurl is better imo because of the extra height that it can reach at. This means that if you whiff it and the opponent is coming at you from above it could still disrupt them. Also if you get them with the attack, it pops them up and you can do it again for some additional damage. And Fireball Cannon can be used for edge guarding.

 

[Rashid]

I believe the best sets are 1333 and 3333. The hitbox on up b is worthless, we might as well have the little bit of extra height. Rock hurl is better imo because of the extra height that it can reach at. This means that if you whiff it and the opponent is coming at you from above it could still disrupt them. Also if you get them with the attack, it pops them up and you can do it again for some additional damage. And Fireball Cannon can be used for edge guarding.

It's, like, one of the best non-grab OoS option in the game. The hits even smoothly connect to each other, it kills earlier than up smash and the height difference between it and Fly High is negligible. (especially if you hold backwards to gain as much vertical height as possible)

 

[Regulas]

Did you just say Flamethrower is worthless? It's one of our best moves. It's what allows us to say STOP for a second and get some breathing room.

My evidence although anecdotal is that in tournament play Flamethrower is A) rarely used B) rarely achieves anything when used and C) is frequently punished when it is used. Thus this seems to suggest that at least in high level tournament play the move is nearly worthless, because the only cases where they use it usually they end up worse for it, and the rare case where it does anything the result is trivial and not anything more then canon would have done.

It's, like, one of the best non-grab OoS option in the game. The hits even smoothly connect to each other, it kills earlier than up smash and the height difference between it and Fly High is negligible. (especially if you hold backwards to gain as much vertical height as possible)

As a punish move it could be acceptable but in general it has the same problem most UP B moves have in that it is very very punishable in the worst kind of way.

 

[Steeler]

I take back all the hypothetical stuff I said about Fireball Cannon, the move is garbage. Can't gimp anything because it doesn't angle as sharply as Flamethrower. Way more unsafe than Flamethrower. Less damage. Use Flamethrower please. Yeah it can be punished but at least it does more damage, especially at the ledge, and is a good option against shields.

 

[HavocThunder]

Right now, a lot of people I play who don't know Charizard like to roll back into Flare Blitz on reaction to the sound, even if it was a bad Flare Blitz. So that made me wonder a couple things about that sound...

It's quite interesting that the way an opponent correctly deals with Flare Blitz (spot-dodge, air dodge out the way, shield) are the situations where Blast Burn will generally hit, and vice versa. It's especially interesting since they make the same sound on startup. See where I'm going here?

Since Flare Blitz and Blast Burn can be used in similar situations, switching between them in a set is an easy way to make the opponent feel uncomfortable. In the second match of a set, they have to actively remember what you chose at the beginning of the match because the sound is misleading. You chose Blast Burn, but in situations where the opponent is used to looking for Flare Blitz and hears that sound, they're more likely to dodge a certain way that makes it easier to land Blast Burn. I know, it's so dirty!

"OMG these mindgames are dumb. I'll just lame it out across the s-"*gets hit by Fireball Cannon*

(Shhhh keep it in the Charizard forums Nah, it's cool. More people should play Charizard for the mindgames with his customs)

I take back all the hypothetical stuff I said about Fireball Cannon, the move is garbage. Can't gimp anything because it doesn't angle as sharply as Flamethrower. Way more unsafe than Flamethrower. Less damage. Use Flamethrower please. Yeah it can be punished but at least it does more damage, especially at the ledge, and is a good option against shields.

I agree that Flamethrower is the best for ledge situations, too. I've had traumatic experiences using FC on the ledge, but at least it's great for taking stage control.

 

[Ryusuta]

I actually don't think Fireball Cannon is bad at all. It kind of sucks that the damage is so low and you're committed to doing three of them, but it's actually pretty good at flinching keep-away characters with poor movement like Duck Hunt and Villager, for instance, making it harder for them to set up. My sincere opinion is that it is by no stretch of the imagination worthless.

I'd actually call it my general move of choice UNLESS the character is a rushdown one (or someone like Game & Watch, as one good prediction will net him a full - albeit weak - bucket).

 

[Swoops]

I really want to do some more research into Fire Fang.

I absolutely agree that since Flamethrower is already pretty safe on shield, a lot of Fire Fang's function is covered. I think the major advantage to Fire Fang is the amount of reward vs Flamethrower for pressuring a shield up close. Potentially a solid amount of damage and a KO option. Do we know how safe it is on shield?

I dunno, seems like it might be a very solid choice if you aren't getting much reward out of the other neutral Bs

EDIT: HOLY F*CK MORE BLAST BURN SETZ PLZ.

@ Amazing Ampharos

Tried blast burn tonight and it is insane. I was actually having trouble applying dragon Rush so I decided to give BB a whirl, and Jesus does this thing destroy. Tech chases at 50% become death traps from hell. Seems like it almost takes out a full shield too. Edgeguarding with it is so manly.It also has the unique ability of being able to ledge snap from the stage.

So I'm all for more blast burn. I could see a 3211/3213 set being alright too. Do you think it's necessary to have fly high if you lose out on the SideB recovery? I really hate losing Fly

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Hello Charizard boards, thought I would give my take on certain moves, namely Fire Fang. The main merit of this move is how fast it racks up damage. The bite at the end when you release the button does 8% and the hits prior deal 2% each. With an average of 16% per time you land Fire Fang it becomes apparent why some (like myself) would enjoy this move. This isn't to say it has more room to stand than the others, but in my opinion all of Zard's Neutral Bs have some utility. To me it seems like it would be a player/playstyle preference call as opposed to a matchup call for Fang.

In regards to Rising Cyclone, the only way I've been able to guarantee the final hit is making sure I am not on the same horizontal location as the opponent. Being right above them, or coming in from below *seems to guarantee the final hit.

Last move I'd like to touch on is Sinking Skull. I understand 100% why this isn't the popular choice. It's not bad on it's own, but when compared to base Rock Smash or Rock Hurl and the area they cover there's no real reason to use it over them.

 

[Swoops]

Hello Charizard boards, thought I would give my take on certain moves, namely Fire Fang. The main merit of this move is how fast it racks up damage. The bite at the end when you release the button does 8% and the hits prior deal 2% each. With an average of 16% per time you land Fire Fang it becomes apparent why some (like myself) would enjoy this move. This isn't to say it has more room to stand than the others, but in my opinion all of Zard's Neutral Bs have some utility. To me it seems like it would be a player/playstyle preference call as opposed to a matchup call for Fang.

In regards to Rising Cyclone, the only way I've been able to guarantee the final hit is making sure I am not on the same horizontal location as the opponent. Being right above them, or coming in from below *seems to guarantee the final hit.

Last move I'd like to touch on is Sinking Skull. I understand 100% why this isn't the popular choice. It's not bad on it's own, but when compared to base Rock Smash or Rock Hurl and the area they cover there's no real reason to use it over them.

Not to mention that sinking skull is basically a completely sub-par DK headbutt with no armor. No extra shield damage and no armor = ew.

Wanted to touch on a couple other things with his customs.

On a negative note with blast burn, the opponent can shield the first contact hit box and roll away from the resulting explosion, avoiding shield damage and damage while zard takes the full 16% recoil. However, I'm not sure how tight the timing is. If the opponent rolls too early, they can eat the full BB during their roll. If they try to roll too late after the first hit, they either take some of the explosion or are forced to block the whole thing which results in eating over half a shield. I was rolling away with relative consistency, but in a real match is another story.

Another thing about blast burn is that I could actually tech the recovery if I connected it at BF platform level. This does not seem possible with flare blitz. Seems like this makes it a reeeeally powerful platform pressure tool.

On Flame Cannon, a side note is that it takes around 3s minimum commitment time. Default Flamethrower takes about a 2s minimum commitment time.

 

[Ryusuta]

Yes, having to commit to three bursts of flame with the Cannon definitely requires you don't use it stupidly. That said, it's still absolutely the go-to choice against campy characters with poor mobility like Villager and Duck Hunt.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I really want to do some more research into Fire Fang.

I absolutely agree that since Flamethrower is already pretty safe on shield, a lot of Fire Fang's function is covered. I think the major advantage to Fire Fang is the amount of reward vs Flamethrower for pressuring a shield up close. Potentially a solid amount of damage and a KO option. Do we know how safe it is on shield?

I dunno, seems like it might be a very solid choice if you aren't getting much reward out of the other neutral Bs

EDIT: HOLY F*CK MORE BLAST BURN SETZ PLZ.

@ Amazing Ampharos

Tried blast burn tonight and it is insane. I was actually having trouble applying dragon Rush so I decided to give BB a whirl, and Jesus does this thing destroy. Tech chases at 50% become death traps from hell. Seems like it almost takes out a full shield too. Edgeguarding with it is so manly.It also has the unique ability of being able to ledge snap from the stage.

So I'm all for more blast burn. I could see a 3211/3213 set being alright too. Do you think it's necessary to have fly high if you lose out on the SideB recovery? I really hate losing Fly

I don't think Blast Burn needs up-3 at all, but it doesn't go badly with it either. And yes, Blast Burn is probably the most fun move in this game. If side-B is doing no work for you otherwise, Blast Burn is quite the trump card to have in your back pocket.

My brief experience with Fire Fang is that it's safe on block in some match-ups but not others. I just can't see giving up Flamethrower's neutral utility for what is essentially a pure damage move, but that's just me.

 

[PhantomTriforce]

Yes, having to commit to three bursts of flame with the Cannon definitely requires you don't use it stupidly. That said, it's still absolutely the go-to choice against campy characters with poor mobility like Villager and Duck Hunt.

Unless you are completely on the other side of the stage, I don't recommend using using cannon on stage. I pretty much use it to tack on additional damage when my opponents are offstage, and it's not bad at that.

 

[Steeler]

Most characters can buffer a dash grab or dash attack out of shield to punish Fire Fang. At least ROB could, who has average dash speed and below average grab range.

That said, it does come out quite a bit sooner than Flamethrower does (around 8-10 frames)

One thing I didn't test with it was how useful it could be in juggles/air to air situations, since it is a constant hitbox, fairly quick, and fairly powerful. Could be worth looking into it.

Another thing - does it push you away like Flamethrower? Because if not, you can catch someone shielding near the edge with it and guarantee you poke the shield.

Blast Burn is pretty amazing on hit, but I hate taking a whopping 16% from it. Trust me guys, Dragon Rush is the truth. Maybe if shields didn't replenish so damn quickly, all you'd need to do is wear one down with Rock Smash/Flamethrower and then Blast Burn your way into a free hit (or free shield break).

 

[-LzR-]

Agreed. Dragon Rush is really really really amazing. It's also a ridiculous recovery move for a super heavy weight character without any serious drawbacks.

Speaking of Fire Fang, the move seems to function almost exactly like Flamethrower. The only difference is that is doesn't have any of the properties that make Flamethrower useful.

 

[Ryusuta]

Unless you are completely on the other side of the stage, I don't recommend using using cannon on stage. I pretty much use it to tack on additional damage when my opponents are offstage, and it's not bad at that.

Against someone like Duck Hunt, I often would be.

 

[-LzR-]

I have the impression Charizard has only 2 viable customs: Dragon Rush and Rock Hurl.
Dragon Rush is optimal in almost every matchup while Rock Hurl can be very useful depending on the matchup.
The other customs are either garbage or don't make up for the lost moves potential: Fly High is garbage, it barely goes higher than our upB already does so it's very rarely even needed. It also removes by far our best kill move. You think Flare Blitz is a good killmove? Nah, upB kills earlier in 99% of the cases. It even has true super armor and none of that self damage bull****. Both are also equally terrible when failed, except UpB is really fast. The cyclone thing is just more unreliable than upB, which is already more than good enough. It's also harder to hit with and it makes our recovery worse.
Flamethrower is just unmatched in utility, why would you want a ****ty low damage projectile that nobody cares about that locks you into doing it 3 times when you can have such an amazing move. Fire Fang is just a shorter range version of Flamethrower which kills its purpose.
Don't even get me started on Blast Burn, with that effort you might as well spike people at 20% because that actually works.

I think 1311 and 1313 and 1113 are the only sets that end up being used seriously.

 

[Ryusuta]

Flamethrower is just unmatched in utility, why would you want a ****ty low damage projectile that nobody cares about that locks you into doing it 3 times when you can have such an amazing move. Fire Fang is just a shorter range version of Flamethrower which kills its purpose.

I think you're seriously, seriously overselling Flamethrower. It's not a bad move, but... unmatched utility? Come on, let's be honst here. Flamethrower isn't THAT good. I've never seen a tournament match (and believe me, I've looked) where I thought to myself "Man, thank god he was using Flamethrower, he'd be screwed without it."

Like, I'm cool with it if you say Flamethrower is generally better, but the idea that Charizard somehow needs it is kind of laughable.

I still think the ability of Fireball Cannon to force normally campy players to approach is majorly worth the risk. I'm not saying to bring it to every fight, but I don't think it could single-handedly screw you over, either.