Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Charizard

[Amazing Ampharos]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

 

[Cornstalk]

POTENTIALLY MOST COMMON SETS:

1311 - Dragon Rush instead of Flare Blitz. I'm guessing this is the most common custom most users will want, as Dragon Rush has the most significant change to play style of all of the customs

1331 - Dragon Rush with Fly High for the deep edge guard/rushers

1112 - Sinking Skull instead of Rock Smash

1312 - Dragon Rush and Sinking Skull

1332 - Dragon Rush, Fly High, and Sinking Skull


POTENTIAL VARIATIONS:
2xxx for any of the above sets if they're a Fire Fang user like myself.
xx2x may also come up on odd occasions for the players that like Rising Cyclone's increased launch power over Fly.


CURRENTLY UNLIKELY:
Fireball Canon (3xxx) does not seem to have any practical application for how terrible it is.
Blast Burn (x2xx) While the power is impressive, the risk is incredibly high to seriously bring to a competitive match
Rock Hurl (xxx3) does not seem to have any distinct advantage over Rock Smash and at seems like an inferior version.


Personal thoughts:
I could easily see the Fly High options being dropped for Rising Cyclone or even Fire Fang as 'default' customs. My personal testing with Charizard tended to favor the Default 1111 and the 5 options I listed as the ones that felt like they had the most potential. This is in spite of the fact that I personally love Fire Fang over Flame Thrower, but generally people seem to prefer Flame Thrower over the other two choices.

As long as there's a spot to build a non-premade custom set still, this should be pretty helpful.

 

[R!otStar]

I like 1331 because people dont know how deal with a rush down rizard and the fly high is good cuz u can go in DEEP to get the kill/gimp......i played a good much of matches with that set. Ill put some up on my youtube channel when i record some new ones

 

[Rashid]

I'm gonna go with 1311 and 1331. I don't think most people would want to replace the default flamethrower and rock smash (both are way too useful).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It sounds like you guys are in pretty general agreement over what's good on zard? Would something like this suit you:

Critical:

1311
1331

Supplemental:

1112
1312
1332
2311

Or does this overlook something important? Further, is Sinking Skull actually worth it? It's very hard for me to imagine a zard not taking default Rock Smash, but I haven't really tested Sinking Skull in depth. If Sinking Skull were not worth it, more Fire Fang and Rising Cyclone variants could be included.

 

[-LzR-]

The way things are I expect anything but Dragon Rush sets to rare and gimmicky at best. The default Rock Smash is such an important move and the others don't make up for it. Same for the upBs. Fly is the best choice here.

 

[Shog]

I agree with -LzR- ...
Dragon Rush, Fly and Rock Smash are the most important for me. Right now I experiment with all 3 Standard b moves, but
x311 are the best.

Maybe this is interesting for the Topic maker?
Rising Cyclone due to janky hitboxes is useless, Blast Burn is super strong, but feels like a warlock punch(=bad), Headbutt has no armor = useless ...
Fly High is a good option, but Fly is a OOS Option...
Flamethrower seems to be the most popular B move, and I agree, but I haven't used the other Neutral B yet.

--> x311 , x331

Fire Fang variants > Burying Header

 

[-LzR-]

I don't like Fly High. It goes just barely past standard Fly, too situational. Not to mention losing one of our best killmoves.
To be honest I am really into Dragon Rush either. I prefer Blitz in most matchups, but sometimes Rush is necessary.

 

[Cornstalk]

It sounds like you guys are in pretty general agreement over what's good on zard? Would something like this suit you:

Critical:

1311
1331

Supplemental:

1112
1312
1332
2311

Or does this overlook something important? Further, is Sinking Skull actually worth it? It's very hard for me to imagine a zard not taking default Rock Smash, but I haven't really tested Sinking Skull in depth. If Sinking Skull were not worth it, more Fire Fang and Rising Cyclone variants could be included.

That looks like a great start. As we get more play time in for Lizardon, this may evolve. As player skill improves, I would assume Fly High xx2x will be the first one to go. Fire Fang and Sinking Skull usage I believe will be more dependent on common match ups. Which brings up a rule question: can you pick your custom based on the match-up after blind picking, or is it part of the blind pick?



Charizard's B moves really feel like mind game tools. If you use them constantly, you're going to become predictable and get punished for it. But using them well conditions your opponent to be scared of you to force their options. Rock Smash is a good answer to aggressive opponents. You better believe I'll have rock smash on for Diddy. However, a friend of mine plays a very campy Samus who will almost always roll. Sinking Skull opens up an opportunity to KO when I predict a roll that Rock Smash and Dragon Rush do not.

Fire Fang has nice synergy in the 2311 set because it gives you a move with KO power you can land on a shield with to bait a shield grab/drop. By being able to stall the hit, it gives you a move to catch people thinking you're going to dragon rush and air dodging, only to get chomped instead. It's a decent option to catch a ledge roll too because the timing isn't as strict and twitch reaction usually causes people to roll up to go through the attack.

Fly High has value primarily for players that like to go deep to edge guard. In particular, it gives you more of a buffer to recover from deep dragon rushes if you screw up your recovery timing. Stage control Lizardons are obviously going to want regular Fly for the Jab->Jab->Fly and out of shield option.

 

[HappyDad]

I think Blast Burn is being underrated here. I didn't think the risk would be worth the reward either, until I tried it. Now I'll never go back. There is literally no better move to punish with than blast burn. I'm not saying just throw it out anytime, but when your opponent whiffs a smash attack, or anything on the high end of slow cooldowns, if you are waiting for it then blast burn is a guaranteed hit, and in most cases, a kill. I'm sure I don't need to tell you how low a percentage it can kill most characters at.

I also use Rising Cyclone, for it's amazing capacity for killing. 60-80% on most, even less if they are fairly high up to being with. Lord knows we can't rely on F-smash to do the job.

 

[-LzR-]

I think Blast Burn is being underrated here. I didn't think the risk would be worth the reward either, until I tried it. Now I'll never go back. There is literally no better move to punish with than blast burn. I'm not saying just throw it out anytime, but when your opponent whiffs a smash attack, or anything on the high end of slow cooldowns, if you are waiting for it then blast burn is a guaranteed hit, and in most cases, a kill. I'm sure I don't need to tell you how low a percentage it can kill most characters at.

I also use Rising Cyclone, for it's amazing capacity for killing. 60-80% on most, even less if they are fairly high up to being with. Lord knows we can't rely on F-smash to do the job.

I think Blast Burn has its place on Doubles. In doubles Dragon Rush doesn't seem to be that much and the basic Blitz is too easy to screw up and it's a free punish all the time.

I think Fly can kill as early as that even without the custom. Or are you talking about ground level?

 

[HappyDad]

I think Blast Burn has its place on Doubles. In doubles Dragon Rush doesn't seem to be that much and the basic Blitz is too easy to screw up and it's a free punish all the time.

I think Fly can kill as early as that even without the custom. Or are you talking about ground level?

I find that because of the gravity of rising cyclone, the killing hitbox is much easier to connect with than fly.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm significantly concerned about Charizard's selections after seeing a lot of him in action. Sinking Skull seems really useless to me to be really honest and I'm not sure it justifies three slots. On the other hand, Blast Burn is clearly *very* good in doubles or quads and Rock Hurl has frame 1 armor. Some changes to accommodate that?

 

[Rashid]

Rock Hurl just feels like an inferior version of Rock Smash. I don't support Sinking Skull at all. I don't play doubles, so I can't speak for the usefulness of Blast Burn.

I think Fireball Cannon is underrated, though Flamethrower still feels more useful overall.

 

[TheASDF]

Keeping in mind my actual practical use with Zard customs is limited:

I'd definitely agree on having a Blast Burn set - 1231, probably, with Fly High being there to make up for Blast Burn's short range. Could probably have 1211 there, too. Not a huge fan of Sinking Skull, but Cornstalk's comment above does make a good case for its punish utility. Rock Hurl having faster super armour seems sorta gimmicky at best - I suppose it could be useful for escaping some combos, but the move as an offensive option isn't nearly as good, so using it to break through juggles/as a pseudo-counter is kind of pointless. Rock Smash just seems like a more generally useful option, but I suppose for certain matchups... Rising Cyclone just seems a little silly to me, with Zard's default being short enough as is. (The combat improvements are barely noticeable, anyway.)

I also don't entirely understand the lack of love for Flare Blitz, which is a solid move for getting reads on an opponent, but okay. (The only non-side-B custom I really like that much is Fly High anyway, so meh.) IMO the sets should be:

1311
1331
1211
1231
1131
2311

That last one could be any of a few Fire Fang or Sinking Skull based sets, really.

 

[Shog]

I'm significantly concerned about Charizard's selections after seeing a lot of him in action. Sinking Skull seems really useless to me to be really honest and I'm not sure it justifies three slots. On the other hand, Blast Burn is clearly *very* good in doubles or quads and Rock Hurl has frame 1 armor. Some changes to accommodate that?

I can (and already had) confirm that Sinking Skull sucks. Put some Flare Blitz sets here on, remove Sinking Skull, replace with Rock Hurls.

Basically: Charizard + Sinking Skull is really meh

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So how about (no particular order here):

1311
1331
1131
1231
1313
1113

That's ditching Sinking Skull (and Fire Fang, which I kinda wanted to keep but not that badly) for a single Blast Burn set and a few Rock Hurl sets plus 1131 which I could definitely see getting picked. Do remember that 1111 is of course always available so this has three decent sets with Flare Blitz, three decent sets with Dragon Rush, and one set with Blast Burn mostly designed for doubles and quads but maybe of some merit in very particular matches where you really trust yourself to make very hard reads.

 

[Steeler]

I was messing around with customs, here are my impressions.

Standard Flamethrower is just so important in so many matchups. To me, there are three major uses for Flamethrower:

1. zone at mid range where your normals won't threaten yet most characters can't safely projectile you. Honestly, the recharge time for Flamethrower is necessary because of how good it is at this. Characters that usually love to keep you and fingertip's reach, so to speak, hate this move. Characters like Rosalina and ROB. The fact that it has hitstun at full range is a big deal.
2. help you land safely. Zard's aerials are pretty terrible at covering him when he lands, because they all have huge landing lag. Flamethrower eats up the shields that opponents could otherwise use to counter anything else Zard could do in the air (except maybe Dragon Rush I guess). It's one of the safest moves on shield in the game. Plus, if you can land a Rock Smash soon after, it's guaranteed to poke.
3. edgeguard people. It completely covers the ledge when angled downward, so they have to take the damage. The problem is that it runs out.

Flamethrower is great at both 1 and 2, and okay at 3. Fire Fang is terrible at all 3. All Fire Fang really does for you is punish spotdodges, which Flamethrower already does. Sure, you can kill at high percents, but ask yourself if your Charizard really needs another kill move instead of the super zoning/shield eating move that Flamethrower is. It's possibly really good at punishing air dodges, though... but you can do that already with other moves... you just give up all that free zoning with Flamethrower. Fireball Cannon is not good at 1, terrible at 2, and possibly amazing at 3. I haven't messed with it against human players, but the flames constantly come out at a steady interval and reach pretty far away. If you are edgeguarding someone and they are forced under the edge and have to use a recovery move with laggy startup or no hitboxes or slow maneuvarability like Fox/Falco/Pit/Duck Hunt, they might not be able to recover at all. Please feel free to test this and report how effective it is, and against which characters. Could be a worthy move to pick against those matchups, but I am assuming the Fox/Falco up b's will just clash and eat through it? It probably ****s Pit/Dark Pit/Duck Hunt HARD though. Maybe Villager if he cannot go vertically fast enough in between the shots (but I bet he can, he's broken). Maybe Little Mac because although he can punch through no problem, getting him before he's in position to recover will kill him.

For side b, Dragon Rush is the overall better move by far, it does decent damage even with the nerf and carries people very far out when used to catch recovering opponents. You are always able to recover from the edge of a stage by mashing out a jump and Dragon Rush. You'll actually sweetspot the ledge, very nice. Still be careful about doing it on stages with close blast zones, like Duck Hunt. Flare Blitz is quite powerful and all that, a pretty good kill move but it's only a punish move that can also tech chase (GOD if only Zard could jab lock holy ****). The heavy armor helps. You can fly into someone charging a smash attack and either get there before they release it or soak up the damage and hit anyway. But you have to be on top of your **** to really use it, because you will usually take over 20% (9% of it yourself... jesus) for hitting a shield with it. It's a bad move in neutral, and Dragon Rush is not. That's the difference. I feel like FB is best used in an air to air situation, especially if someone is trying to gimp you. There are almost no moves that will break the armor and they can't shield in the air. Worst case scenario, they air dodge the whole thing and you are probably far enough away to avoid punishment. Then again, DR can do pretty much the same thing... FB is also great for recovering from high and when you sweetspot the ledge, because you have the armor and no one wants to **** with this move. Blast Burn is bad, don't use it, even in teams. It does even more damage to yourself, is super ****ing slow, and goes half the distance. It doesn't help you recover or get out of juggle situations, it's kill range is only about 20% lower than Flare Blitz's, and it's bad. It does a lot of damage, but so does Charizard's running up smash, which is only like 6% weaker, is safer, is faster, sets up for juggles, and doesn't hurt you. FB is great enough at getting kills you don't deserve in teams. Again, Zard isn't lacking for killpower on his punishes, you do not need to sacrifice so much for it.

I'm starting to warm up to Fly High. I think Fly OOS is overhyped... You can just up smash in those same instances, which is faster, about as strong, and has more range in front of you. People have to basically be inside your shield for this punish to work, which is very uncommon in some matchups. In those situations, I think Fly High is preferable. You can go deep as **** with this and spam nairs or do a crazy side B to mess with recoveries. It still even has super armor to help your recovery out, and doesn't have a hitbox so you won't accidentally save a potential gimp by carrying them up. Both moves help you avoid edgegrab vulnerability spikes because Fly has hitboxes (so they can't ledge drop into it) and Fly High gives you more leeway (if they want to time it from on stage/above the ledge). They are each more vulnerable to the other option, so it'll help if you know the other player's style and how they usually go for it (the general preference seems to be from on stage). If you really like using Fly to juggle people and punish air dodges above you, that's totally legit and I respect you. I just rather try for uairs because when you Fly, you usually end the juggle then and there (and put yourself at risk if you miss). I remember seeing people post about jab 2 -> fly, I don't know if that's legit or how easy it is for people to get out of that. Possibly good for a one time use in a set... but maybe jab 2 -> usmash is just as legit? Worth trying. Rising Cyclone is so bad omfg. Let me show you the frame data.


Rising Cyclone
Frame 15-16: 4% 100f/100w 100°
Frame 15-16: 4% 100f/80w 90°
Frame 19-39: [2%]x6 70b/40g 135° 0.6-Hitlag 1.2-SDI
Frame 19-39: [2%]x6 105b/30g 90° 0.6-Hitlag 1.2-SDI
Frame 41-41: 6% 70b/160g (KO@ 121%) 70° 1.5-Hitlag
Max Damage: 22%

There are 6 hits in there with an extra 1.2 SDI multiplier, which means that it's easier to get out than normal. Also the height sucks compared to the other two. Also Fly does 17% with all hits, so it's not weak either. Don't use this. If you like chasing people above you with up b, use Fly.

Rock Smash is super good, as always. Rock Hurl has frame one super armor, and that is the only thing that it has over Rock Smash. It could possibly be a free punish ON HIT for some jab combos and multihit moves. We need to test that out. Well, that and it sends people right above you, which is really good for Zard. But it does much less damage and doesn't kill. It's worth taking in a matchup if it shuts down some multihit move/jab but other than that... Rock Smash please, it has frame 5 SA so you will still armor through smash attacks and such. All the shards on Hurl go vertically too, so you never get the random shards at the end that can save your ass. Sinking Skull (Skull Bash pls) is kind of bad. It's almost as fast as DK's with much less range and shield damage, but there's no super armor and doesn't poke through damaged shields like Rock Smash... also, the bury effect was nerfed in Smash 4. Knockback is severely reduced if they are in it. HOWEVER, Charizard has a special way of ignoring that bull****. Flare Blitz and Blast Burn have two hitboxes that do damage when you connect with them... the first hit will knock them out of bury effect unless they are at low percent, and the second hit (the explosion that actually does knockback) will hit with NO HOLDS BARRED POWER AND DESTRUCTION. So that's the only reason to take that move. Charizard has the strongest bury kill power in the game (I assume). Also it looks really ****ing cool when Zard down smashes someone in bury stance. You know what? That should be doubled knockback/damage, because Earthquake does double damage on Pokemon who are underground while using Dig. Sakurai really missed something here.

Rock Smash is just so good though. It's not worth it.

Anyway, this is how all 10 of Zard's custom slots should be filled out, now and forever:

1311
1331
1131
3111
3311
3331
1113
1133
1313
3131/1333/1232/1132/1112

Basically, you get your pick between DR/FB and Fly/Fly High with the option for a matchup specific move. The bolded are most critical and useful against the roster as a whole. The italicized is Fireball Cannon for matchups where that ****s recoveries over. The underlined is Rock Hurl if it gets Lizardon out of a move. If you would like to leave a slot open for bad combinations (any #2 options basically), take out the last slot and make players bring that on their 3DS if they want janky bury kills at 70%. If you really want only 6 options for the next update (leave 2222 and 3333 on a special Wii U console the tourney host will have JUST for downloading customs), take the 3 critical + 3331, 3311, and 1313. If Rock Hurl turns out pretty bad (which I suspect), then replace 1313 with 3131, and in the full 10 list you'll have more room for janky headbutt and Fire Fang shenanigans. But really, the point is never use Fire Fang/Rising Cyclone or Blast Burn without Sinking Headbutt.

 

[Thinkaman]

A quick comment--I'm not even close to being able to pull off a Sinking Skull -> Blast Burn on a level 9 CPU, even at high %s.

I have zero faith in Sinking Skull having any value comparable to Rock Smash or Rock Hurl.

 

[Rashid]

A quick comment--I'm not even close to being able to pull off a Sinking Skull -> Blast Burn on a level 9 CPU, even at high %s.

I have zero faith in Sinking Skull having any value comparable to Rock Smash or Rock Hurl.

To be fair, level 9 CPUs are mad crazy at mashing out of grabs and pits. Try it against another human and make sure he's prepared to just mash out. Get the best masher you know! (but I'm still all for vanilla RS in the end)

 

[Thinkaman]

In other news, Rock Hurl can reliably get out of Mario d-throw stuff from 0%, Diddy d-throw stuff from mid-%s (~30-50% depending), and Sheik fair chains at mid-%s (around 50%).

Good option is good.

 

[Rashid]

In other news, Rock Hurl can reliably get out of Mario d-throw stuff from 0%, Diddy d-throw stuff from mid-%s (~30-50% depending), and Sheik fair chains at mid-%s (around 50%).

Good option is good.

Can't Rock Smash do that as well? At least from my experience... maybe I don't play against the best of players, but still.

 

[Thinkaman]

Well, Rock Smash doesn't have armor until frame 5 on the ground; it can still break out of the strictly aerial stuff, but stuff like low-% mario combos you land during.

In terms of escaping reliable-but-non-true combos:

Frame 5 - Good
Frame 3 - Excellent
Frame 1 - Unheard Of


Frame 3 is associated with the best combo escape tools, like Mario up-b, Yoshi nair, and Diddy uair.


The only Frame 1 combo escapes are armor based:

Rock Smash (aerial only)
Rock Hurl (ground or aerial)

Grounding Dash (koopajr side-3)
Stubborn Headbutt (DK side-3)
Volatile Breathing (WFT down-2)
Back Slash Charge (Shulk side-3)


All in all, I'm inclined to think Rock Smash is always dominant.

 

[Steeler]

Rock Smash has frame 5 armor in the air as well, the error is that aerial Hurl is labeled as Smash in the frame data.

Rock Smash (aerial)
Frame 24-26: 14% 50b/80g (KO@ 153%) 70° 1.3-Hitlag
Max Damage: 14%
Article generated on real frame 1
Begins super armor on real frame 5
Ends super armor on real frame 24

Sinking Skull (aerial)
Frame 23-24: 12% 50b/80g (KO@ 231%) 275° 2.0-Hitlag Aerial-Target-Only
Frame 23-26: 9% 50b/50g (KO@ 380%) 70° 1.5-Hitlag Bury
Max Damage: 12%

Rock Smash (aerial)
Frame 21-23: 8% 45b/75g (KO@ 272%) 85° 1.3-Hitlag
Max Damage: 8%
Begins super armor on real frame 1
Article generated on real frame 1
Ends super armor on real frame 21

I think Hurl would be okay if it could get you out of more than frame traps. But because these are traps, they can just shield the move and punish you afterward. It'll be able to get you out of easy-to-not-link jabs like Mac and Koopaling, though.

Also yeah, I tested Skull to BB on an uncontrolled dummy, so mashing did not come into play. I don't know if FB is any faster/likely to hit in that instance. Either way, it's terrible so don't do it.

 

[mimgrim]

I dislike how Rock Hurl is getting such little love. Like frame 1 Super Armor. C'mon. It might not kill like Rock Smash but Zard already has plenty of kill power and what he needs is more ways to deal with and stuff approaches which Rock Hurl does better while also being a better anti-air since it covers more range above Zard.

 

[Deaga]

Why's there absolutely no love for Rising Cyclone? I've found the increased horizontal range, damage and KO power to be very useful when using it. The move also goes much higher when used in the air, meaning it loses only a tiny bit of range when compared to Fly. Am I missing something here?

 

[mimgrim]

It doesn't link nearly as reliably as Fly and doesn't get armor till frame 13 (whereas Fly gets it at frame 4) making it less effective as an OoS option.

 

[Deaga]

Oh, indeed, while playing with a friend, he could hit me out of it in the early frames of the move, I guess that's a very good point. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Spirst]

That, plus the fact Rising Cyclone's first active hitbox frame is 15 while Fly is frame 9 makes OoS punishes or even jab 2>up B less viable. KO Power+damage is good but Charizard could benefit more from a faster move to counter pressure.

 

[Steeler]

Also, regular Fly is super dumb strong for a fast up b move anyway. On that note, I take back what I said in that big wall of text about Fly High being viable. Fly is so good.

 

[Pokepal148]

I dislike how Rock Hurl is getting such little love. Like frame 1 Super Armor. C'mon. It might not kill like Rock Smash but Zard already has plenty of kill power and what he needs is more ways to deal with and stuff approaches which Rock Hurl does better while also being a better anti-air since it covers more range above Zard.

For me I feel like Rock Hurl really just flows more nicely with Zards other moves and can easily be used to set an opponent up for some of his other kill moves.

 

[Shog]

Rock Smash punishes below you too. It deals more damage, too. And finally, it can actually kill!

And I have to say after playing offline a long time...holy moly, Online sucks. The minimal lag sometimes occur in unbearable!! Oh wait wrong topic sorry. But I write it down here so I don't forget it.

 

[Spirst]

What I'm most interested in is how the frame 1 SA allows Charizard to escape juggles or any kind of pressure. Frame 1 SA is a pretty good thing to have. Frame 5 isn't too bad either though.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Rock Hurl gets Armor off the first frame?

 

[mimgrim]

Rock Hurl gets Armor off the first frame?

Yes. It starts at frame 1 and lasts till frame 21 I believe.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yes. It starts at frame 1 and lasts till frame 21 I believe.

That sounds pretty amazing.

 

[DunnoBro]

Don't rock hurl and Rising Cyclone work well together? Better OOS and anti-pressure option than fly, and Rock hurl can set up for rising... Not too familiar with zard though.

 

[mimgrim]

Don't rock hurl and Rising Cyclone work well together? Better OOS and anti-pressure option than fly, and Rock hurl can set up for rising... Not too familiar with zard though.

Fly is superior to the other 2 Up Specials. Fly is a far better OoS and anti-pressur option then Rising Cyclone because Fly gets armor at frame 4 while Cyclone gets it at frame 13. Fly is also a more reliable kill move.

Rock Hurl is mostly preference dependent. Rock Smash is a better kill option and still a solid anti-pressure tool with its frame 5 armor. Rock Hurl loses out kill power to become a fantastic anti-pressure and anti-air tool with frame 1 armor.

 

[DunnoBro]

Fly is superior to the other 2 Up Specials. Fly is a far better OoS and anti-pressur option then Rising Cyclone because Fly gets armor at frame 4 while Cyclone gets it at frame 13. Fly is also a more reliable kill move.

I'm aware fly is better than cyclone for armor, I was comparing it to rock hurl for that. How is it a more reliable kill move? Doesn't cyclone suck in? How much weaker is it exactly?

Rock Hurl is mostly preference dependent. Rock Smash is a better kill option and still a solid anti-pressure tool with its frame 5 armor. Rock Hurl loses out kill power to become a fantastic anti-pressure and anti-air tool with frame 1 armor.

Not so much preference than matchup specific imo. You won't need rock hurl against someone like say, ike or samus really since they don't string that much. But against metaknight or sheik it's a godsend. You also don't really hurt for kills in matchups against mobile combo happy chars.

 

[Spirst]

I'm aware fly is better than cyclone for armor, I was comparing it to rock hurl for that. How is it a more reliable kill move? Doesn't cyclone suck in? How much weaker is it exactly?



Not so much preference than matchup specific imo. You won't need rock hurl against someone like say, ike or samus really since they don't string that much. But against metaknight or sheik it's a godsend. You also don't really hurt for kills in matchups against mobile combo happy chars.

Fly being a more reliable kill move isn't because of it's power (rising cyclone has more) but because of the frame advantage it has over rising cyclone. Fly's first active hitbox is on frame 9 whereas rising cyclone is frame 15. Having SA on frame 4 with Fly is a lot more useful than having SA on Rising Cylcone at frame 13. Combined together, this makes for a more reliable OoS option and thus, a more reliable kill move.

I agree with Rock Smash/Rock Hurl being MU specific.