Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Charizard

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Overall, I really think 'Zard's kinda gotten the short end of the customs stick. Like, legitimately the only custom we have that's flat better than the default is DR, everything else is either worse or about the same.

If I had to pick a base set myself, I guess it'd be 1311, because it's pretty solid. It kinda sucks we can't use equipment in tournament play, because that definitely would help some of 'Zard's MU's in a positive manner.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Gimmicks can be had with Sinking Skull and Zard's new Dthrow, since you can combo at 0% and the spike is extremely strong. 1312 or 1332 could be an interesting sets, since you can mix up your dthrow follow ups between dragon rush and sinking skull. Sinking skull can also be used as an edgeguarding/offstage option. We lose an amazing defensive tool for possibly the best spike in the game. Might be worth it against characters that don't rely heavily on combos though.

I wanna play around more with this custom now.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Overall, I really think 'Zard's kinda gotten the short end of the customs stick. Like, legitimately the only custom we have that's flat better than the default is DR, everything else is either worse or about the same.

If I had to pick a base set myself, I guess it'd be 1311, because it's pretty solid. It kinda sucks we can't use equipment in tournament play, because that definitely would help some of 'Zard's MU's in a positive manner.

Once again Bowser and Zard have something in common.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Quality over Quantity. That one custom is all char needed to turn whole matchups around.

And to be fair, Char's Special Moves were great to begin with. Flamethrower, Fly, and Rocksmash are all great at what they do. It's not that his customs are bad, his default specials are just too good

 

[Steeler]

Yeah, I think pretty much every character in this game would like to have at least one of Zard's defaults rather than any of their options.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

I think we've hit circlejerk territory.

 

[Mmeaninglessnamee]

Nah, possible interesting discussion. What character wouldn't improve by stealing one of charizard's B moves? Shiek? Flare Blitz over a hard-to-hit grenade any day. Diddy? His specials are solid, but flamethrower is probably much more useful than a peanut gun.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Shiek would get objectively worse with Flare Blitz. Grenades are at least safe to use, and we saw some . Flare Blitz is incredibly unsafe. Diddy's peanut gun is a much more consistent ledge guarding option since flamethrower gets low after a while. The only characters that might get better with our side b is Yoshi or Jiggs but that's just because they have the worst side b's in the game.

 

[Steeler]

Flare Blitz functions like a combination of Vanish and Bouncing Fish, so it would be redundant.

Really goes to show how good Sheik specials are.

Banana Toss to Flamethrower would be disgustingly safe pressure.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Not sure if this has been noted yet, but the 1% buff to sweetspot filt makes it an effective luma killer now. Pre-patch ftilt wouldn't send luma into tumble, now it does as long as you land the sweetspot. (sweetspot is easier to land to boot.)

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Problem is that Zard is a big, heavy and floaty target; basically combo food for Rosaluma if they're half-decent with Luma. We can kill Luma easier, but we still need to avoid getting caught by them, because Charizard is combo food for anybody with half a brain using that duo.

The combo of heavy weight and floaty gravity basically neuters Charizard's potential against higher-tier characters, because it makes him combo food almost immediately. If 'Zard was either lighter with better recovery, or heavier with more options against rushdown, he'd probably be really good. As it is, he's merely combo food in non-customs tournaments, and Dragon Rush, while great, is still hampered by Charizard's inherent flaws; he's floaty and all his aerials are laggy. If this was Melee, and L-Canceling was still a thing, it'd be less of an issue.

Still, he's not nearly bottom of the barrel, so I don't think Zard's place on the tier list is quite as it should be. He's certainly not nearly as bad as Mewtwo and Mii Swordfighter.

 

[Steeler]

Swordfighter is pretty legit now, actually.

 

[Mmeaninglessnamee]

Swordfighter is pretty good, and maybe the best of the Miis if restricted to 1111 (both gunner and brawler desperately need others specials, swordfighter is meh either way) Bottom of the barrel is Mewtwo, Samus, and without customs Mii Gunner and Palutena.

As for charizard, well he keeps getting small buffs, though probably not even his throw changes benefit him as much as having Dragon Rush for most matchups. Dthrow comboing to dragon rush should maybe make DRush sets more critical now?

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Problem is that Zard is a big, heavy and floaty target; basically combo food for Rosaluma if they're half-decent with Luma. We can kill Luma easier, but we still need to avoid getting caught by them, because Charizard is combo food for anybody with half a brain using that duo.

The combo of heavy weight and floaty gravity basically neuters Charizard's potential against higher-tier characters, because it makes him combo food almost immediately. If 'Zard was either lighter with better recovery, or heavier with more options against rushdown, he'd probably be really good. As it is, he's merely combo food in non-customs tournaments, and Dragon Rush, while great, is still hampered by Charizard's inherent flaws; he's floaty and all his aerials are laggy. If this was Melee, and L-Canceling was still a thing, it'd be less of an issue.

Still, he's not nearly bottom of the barrel, so I don't think Zard's place on the tier list is quite as it should be. He's certainly not nearly as bad as Mewtwo and Mii Swordfighter.

Well, I'm not going to argue with you there. Any Rosaluma with half a brain will use Charizard as combo food...

...And if the charizard has little more than half a brain, she's going to eat a rocksash for it.

Don't get me wrong, Rosa is a great character (maybe a little too good), but she isn't without her flaws. First of all, she's light. Very light. This is a big deal, because it means that any rosaluma with only half a brain is going to get wrecked by a competent Zard. She cannot afford to trade with us. If char and rosa trade hit for hit, charizard is going to win out in the long run. We're heavier than she is, and we KO earlier than she does. She wants to take what damage she can safely while avoiding retaliation. You still have to respect zard as rosa, he can get some good mileage off of something as small as a dash attack or grab.

Rosa is floaty and her landing options aren't the best, so we can juggle her if we get her above us. We have the tools to punish her both in the air, and offstage. You need to maintain stage control as rosa luma in the matchup.

It's not a free matchup for us by any means, but it's not free for Rosa either.

 

[-LzR-]

The only moment when I feel like I'm at a disadvantage against Rosaluma is when I'm directly above them.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

May I defend Rising Cyclone up B? I think it's easily the best of his up B options.

The description actually lies when it says that it doesn't go as high as normal, when in fact it just has more frames of his previous momentum before the upward rush. Thus, when you jump and then immediately use it, the upward momentum from the jump will continue during the startup, and so he goes just as high as default (like Little Mac's Rising Smash). Granted you need another jump, but that isn't hard to get with Charizard, especially with Dragon Rush enabled as well, and even without a jump it isn't worthless.

It's also a much better kill move than normal Fly. An aerial Rising Cyclone can kill off a down throw as early as 50% against fast-fallers or heavies, and while it may not be a "true" combo, it's very hard to escape due to the magnetic windbox and super armor. Grounded, Rising Cyclone is somewhat situational, as the strong hit at the end is very difficult to land unless your opponent is large. However, it's still pretty good OoS, as the windbox and super armor will still likely take the opponent in, and the hits that combo into the strong blow at the end have base knockback, which can still get opponents away.

I much prefer Rising Cyclone to Fly, and I also prefer Dragon Rush and default Flamethrower. I can see the uses of both Rock Smash and Rock Hurl, though I usually prefer the latter for its AoE and early super armor, so my preferred moveset is 1323.

EDIT: As @ EvilPinkamina mentioned, Sinking Skull works well with Rising Cyclone, so theoretically anything in the form 132X is a solid moveset to me.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

No you can not defend rising cyclone, its a bad move and we've moved on. /jk

If we're going to talk about Rising Cyclone, we need to mention the obvious synergy it has with Sinking Skull. [Credit for video goes to our very own Ryukred].

That is all I can contribute to the discussion.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

May I defend Rising Cyclone up B? I think it's easily the best of his up B options.

The description actually lies when it says that it doesn't go as high as normal, when in fact it just has more frames of his previous momentum before the upward rush. Thus, when you jump and then immediately use it, the upward momentum from the jump will continue during the startup, and so he goes just as high as default (like Little Mac's Rising Smash). Granted you need another jump, but that isn't hard to get with Charizard, especially with Dragon Rush enabled as well, and even without a jump it isn't worthless.

It's also a much better kill move than normal Fly. An aerial Rising Cyclone can kill off a down throw as early as 50% against fast-fallers or heavies, and while it may not be a "true" combo, it's very hard to escape due to the magnetic windbox and super armor. Grounded, Rising Cyclone is somewhat situational, as the strong hit at the end is very difficult to land unless your opponent is large. However, it's still pretty good OoS, as the windbox and super armor will still likely take the opponent in, and the hits that combo into the strong blow at the end have base knockback, which can still get opponents away.

I much prefer Rising Cyclone to Fly, and I also prefer Dragon Rush and default Flamethrower. I can see the uses of both Rock Smash and Rock Hurl, though I usually prefer the latter for its AoE and early super armor, so my preferred moveset is 1323.

EDIT: As @ EvilPinkamina mentioned, Sinking Skull works well with Rising Cyclone, so theoretically anything in the form 132X is a solid moveset to me.

1323 is my favorite charizard custom set as well! I have gotten kills on people using rising cyclone SO EARLY! Like 50-60% without rage, and that is game changing! You could argue that you could do that with fly as well, but it is a lot harder! The longer startup does not matter much in my opinion, since you will be timing a bit earlier it to catch an opponent above you anyways. I also agree that it doesn't seem to limit charizard's vertical recovery much at all, maybe a few pixels! Not very significant in the long run. Also, when trying to KO off the top, the windbox is so important to me. For example, I may try to kill with U-air, but I miss or my target airdodges, so I can follow up with rising cyclone and still kill! And of course, if the opponent tries to challenge it, they will pay with their stock most of the time. I find it good to use that tactic when you try to kill with U-throw and it falls just short. Also, another detail to note is that grounded rising cyclone will land almost perfectly on the low platforms on battlefield or dreamland when started on the ground below them, so there is a very small window to punish it, and it is worth it to go for it in certain situations in my opinion. If you were to use grounded fly in the same situation, you would go into special fall for a bit before landing on the platform, so it is a weaker attack with more end lag. And of course, you have the surprise factor on your side, and it feels so good to kill someone at 50% and just look at the expression on their face like "Wait, I'm dead already?" I will stubbornly defend rising cyclone because I love that feeling so much, and I honestly think that it is a better version of fly.

The frame data and the description may be unattractive and cause many people to never even try rising cyclone, but trust me, if you try this move out against another human, you will gain an entirely new perspective on it!

 

[Lyserdon]

1323 is my favorite charizard custom set as well! I have gotten kills on people using rising cyclone SO EARLY! Like 50-60% without rage, and that is game changing! You could argue that you could do that with fly as well, but it is a lot harder! The longer startup does not matter much in my opinion, since you will be timing a bit earlier it to catch an opponent above you anyways. I also agree that it doesn't seem to limit charizard's vertical recovery much at all, maybe a few pixels! Not very significant in the long run. Also, when trying to KO off the top, the windbox is so important to me. For example, I may try to kill with U-air, but I miss or my target airdodges, so I can follow up with rising cyclone and still kill! And of course, if the opponent tries to challenge it, they will pay with their stock most of the time. I find it good to use that tactic when you try to kill with U-throw and it falls just short. Also, another detail to note is that grounded rising cyclone will land almost perfectly on the low platforms on battlefield or dreamland when started on the ground below them, so there is a very small window to punish it, and it is worth it to go for it in certain situations in my opinion. If you were to use grounded fly in the same situation, you would go into special fall for a bit before landing on the platform, so it is a weaker attack with more end lag. And of course, you have the surprise factor on your side, and it feels so good to kill someone at 50% and just look at the expression on their face like "Wait, I'm dead already?" I will stubbornly defend rising cyclone because I love that feeling so much, and I honestly think that it is a better version of fly.

The frame data and the description may be unattractive and cause many people to never even try rising cyclone, but trust me, if you try this move out against another human, you will gain an entirely new perspective on it!

I haven't tried it yet because unlocking customs is annoying, but this post is making me want to give it a shot. Too bad all the TOs in my area laugh if customs are even mentioned.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

I wouldn't waste my energy unlocking customs. Doesn't exactly look like the metagame is going to advance any further than this past EVO.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

It's probably true, but it's super unfortunate in my opinion that customs are being eliminated from the major competitive scene. I thought that customs allowed for low tier characters to have a much better shot at being viable, and for tactical moveset switches mid-set to adjust to the matchup to keep things interesting even if there are no character changes.

However, I understand how it can be difficult and annoying for TOs to deal with all of the problems that arise from customs, and also that only a very select few people have unlocked all of the customs for every character. But it's too bad, because I love using custom Charizard. My main, DDD, gains absolutely nothing from customs in my opinion, and while maybe his down-B gets improved, it still never gets used in competitive play. So if customs are on, I consider Charizard to be my main, because I really like the variety they give to his moveset.

edit: Also, on another note, is Blast burn good now that shields have been weakened? I know it put serious damage on shields before, so is it an instant shield break now? that could be interesting for a surprise shield break to close out a stock early if the opponent doesn't know that blast burn can do that.

 

[Steeler]

blast burn is not an instant shield break, shield damage didn't change. however, now the first hit links into the following hits on shield - before people could roll after shielding the first part and avoid almost all the shield damage.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

I'm actually okay without customs now. They're used as more of a crutch imo.

 

[BombChu]

Has flare blitz damage to himself been lessened?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I'm actually okay without customs now. They're used as more of a crutch imo.

Yeah, a crutch that helps the characters who need them. Customs in my (and many others') opinion open the range of viable characters, and give every character a fighting chance (literally ). The real downside is that several top tiers also improve greatly with them.

 

[Mmeaninglessnamee]

Customs were fun while they lasted, but I see both sides on them. (Still pro-customs, but it's a moot point now)

Characters have been buffed (not enough, but any bit helps) with a few less than when the game came out being absolutely unplayable. I'll settle for Mii specials (Helps that I also play swordfighter and gunner, and gunner is one of the characters left that is nearly unplayable without all specials)

I hope if a PM-like mod for 4 ever emerges, there will be the return of customs in place of lackluster default specials.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Mii Specials shouldn't even be legal. 's just dumb

 

[charizardbro]

With the buffs to Dthrow I think Rising Cyclone becomes extremely viable as an airdodge punisher in MUs where both players don't exactly want to fight offstage or Flare Blitz recovery is better than Fly anyway. The early kills are absurd.

We just never had a good way to bait out airdodges before that patch.

Oh well.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

We've had up air/fly as a good way to bait airdodges forever. We just had no way to get them into a position where they needed to airdodge.

 

[charizardbro]

We've had up air/fly as a good way to bait airdodges forever. We just had no way to get them into a position where they needed to airdodge.

People can airdodge Fly/Uair on reaction. It didn't work too well for me outside of wifi.

Getting them into a position where they need to airdodge = bait an airdodge imo.

This is all semantics though.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

To be fair, if getting them into the position is baiting an airdodge, then it's not rising cyclone that does that. It's dthrow.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

But then Rising Cyclone is the better punish, so I don't really see your point.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Rising Cyclone can also be airdodged on reaction though. Like, if your opponent can react to up air, fly, fair, etc. then he can totally react to a move with 20 frames of startup and no super armor.

 

[charizardbro]

To be fair, if getting them into the position is baiting an airdodge, then it's not rising cyclone that does that. It's dthrow.

m8

That's why I prefaced it with "with the changes to Dthrow." The new Dthrow makes Rising Cyclone a more viable option. As Linerider said, it's a better punish than Fly.

Rising Cyclone can also be airdodged on reaction though. Like, if your opponent can react to up air, fly, fair, etc. then he can totally react to a move with 20 frames of startup and no super armor.

Luckily enough for Zard, airdodges have lag so they can't airdodge on reaction to Rising Cyclone if they've already airdodged Dthrow without Zard actually going for a followup. This is the one case I was talking about and honestly makes a pretty hard sell for Rising Cyclone in some MUs, imo.

Going for Flys and Rising Cyclones when your opponent is falling back to stage (say, after a mid percent Utilt) is a bad idea no matter which move you use. Rising Cyclone might be easier to airdodge but that doesn't necessarily make it a selling point for Fly because Fly is also easy to airdodge.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

m8

That's why I prefaced it with "with the changes to Dthrow." The new Dthrow makes Rising Cyclone a more viable option. As Linerider said, it's a better punish than Fly.



Luckily enough for Zard, airdodges have lag so they can't airdodge on reaction to Rising Cyclone if they've already airdodged Dthrow without Zard actually going for a followup. This is the one case I was talking about and honestly makes a pretty hard sell for Rising Cyclone in some MUs, imo.

Going for Flys and Rising Cyclones when your opponent is falling back to stage (say, after a mid percent Utilt) is a bad idea no matter which move you use. Rising Cyclone might be easier to airdodge but that doesn't necessarily make it a selling point for Fly because Fly is also easy to airdodge.

If they airdodged the down throw w/o follow up though, then you follow up with up air and kill at around the same % without sacrificing a noticeable amount of vertical recovery. Like, Rising Cyclone has always been better than fly as a punish, but it's still not viable against a character who knows the matchup. On top of that, it weakens our matchups against some top tiers.

 

[charizardbro]

If they airdodged the down throw w/o follow up though, then you follow up with up air and kill at around the same % without sacrificing a noticeable amount of vertical recovery. Like, Rising Cyclone has always been better than fly as a punish, but it's still not viable against a character who knows the matchup. On top of that, it weakens our matchups against some top tiers.

So to each their own, I guess, but I really don't agree.

Sometimes they are too close to the ground to use Uair. Fly would still be better than Uair. And the kill percents really aren't comparable at all. Rising Cyclone kills Mario at 47% on 3DS FD if you are able to short hop or airjump immediately before Rising Cyclone (this increases Cyclone's vertical reach by a lot). It kills Mario 70% if you are grounded. Fly kills at 113% when grounded and 106% if you short hop or air jump first. Fly does 17%. Rising Cyclone does up to 24%.

Also, first air jump + Rising Cyclone actually goes a little further than first airjump + Fly. I'm dead serious. Try it. You are sort of screwed without if you have to recover with Uspecial without an airjump though.

Knowing the MU has nothing to do with whether or not you mash airdodge out of Dthrow. There's a notable percentage range where mashing second jump won't save you but mashing airdodge might. It's a risk some people are willing to take.

I'm not suggesting we use Rising Cyclone over Fly all of the time. Only in specific MUs. I'm not entirely sure which ones yet because I haven't tried the move very much but I have a couple ideas.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Sometimes they are too close to the ground to use Uair.

That's kinda difficult, since Zard's SH height is so low, but if that situation occurs they're probably air dodging into the ground, in which an Fsmash would be much better

Fly would still be better than Uair. And the kill percents really aren't comparable at all. Rising Cyclone kills Mario at 47% on 3DS FD if you are able to short hop or airjump immediately before Rising Cyclone (this increases Cyclone's vertical reach by a lot). It kills Mario 70% if you are grounded. Fly kills at 113% when grounded and 106% if you short hop or air jump first. Fly does 17%. Rising Cyclone does up to 24%.

All of this is correct, but you're also sacrificing a lot of everything for early kills. Its like sinking skull (my baby). Kills hella early, but what you're giving up is too much. Sure you can kill Mario at 70% on ground, but (on top of the fact I'm assuming this was with no DI/SDI) when will you ever get into that situation in a real match? A more realistic situation is that mario holds you off with fireballs until you have to approach, then he punishes you with Dthrow > utilts and either juggles you to death or gets you at ~60% - 70% before he goes back to forcing you to engage.

Also, first air jump + Rising Cyclone actually goes a little further than first airjump + Fly. I'm dead serious. Try it. You are sort of screwed without if you have to recover with Uspecial without an airjump though.

You're more vulnerable though because of the lack of super armor and longer startup, and if you lose your jump somehow (diddy peanut or sheik needles for example) then your recovery is sub par on top of being incredibly punishable and predictable.

Knowing the MU has nothing to do with whether or not you mash airdodge out of Dthrow

If you mash airdodge in general out of dthrow you're probs in a bad place and don't know Charizard.

I'm not suggesting we use Rising Cyclone over Fly all of the time. Only in specific MUs.

The only matchup i could possibly think would give Zard anything more than a disadvantage is Bowser because he doesn't have any moves you'd want to go off stage and spike your opponent with.

 

[charizardbro]

That's kinda difficult, since Zard's SH height is so low, but if that situation occurs they're probably air dodging into the ground, in which an Fsmash would be much better

You're not going to bait an airdodge by being in a grounded state. All of the airdodge punishes I've gotten with Fly in tournament have come from full hopping after Dthrow to bait an airdodge and then fastfalling to get under them for a Fly. Sometimes you hit the ground. It depends on what character you are playing against.

All of this is correct, but you're also sacrificing a lot of everything for early kills. Its like sinking skull (my baby). Kills hella early, but what you're giving up is too much. Sure you can kill Mario at 70% on ground, but (on top of the fact I'm assuming this was with no DI/SDI) when will you ever get into that situation in a real match? A more realistic situation is that mario holds you off with fireballs until you have to approach, then he punishes you with Dthrow > utilts and either juggles you to death or gets you at ~60% - 70% before he goes back to forcing you to engage.

You get into this situation when you use Dthrow and bait an airdodge. That was the point of my entire first post. All you need is a grab. You don't fish for Rising Cyclones.

You're more vulnerable though because of the lack of super armor and longer startup, and if you lose your jump somehow (diddy peanut or sheik needles for example) then your recovery is sub par on top of being incredibly punishable and predictable.

I know the drawbacks of the move and I never said we would use it in those matchups. I only wanted to say you get more vertical reach than first meets the eye. I just have to find MUs where that matters less.

If you mash airdodge in general out of dthrow you're probs in a bad place and don't know Charizard.

"There's a notable percentage range where mashing second jump won't save you but mashing airdodge might. It's a risk some people are willing to take."

It's like mashing airdodge out of Shiek's Dthrow except that's a true 50/50 for your stock in a lot of cases. Our Dthrow is your stock or 11%, usually. It's probably a better call to just take the Fair. I've noticed a lot of people going for it consecutively after they airdodge Fair once.

The only matchup i could possibly think would give Zard anything more than a disadvantage is Bowser because he doesn't have any moves you'd want to go off stage and spike your opponent with.

I was thinking it would be good in MUs where we really, really benefit from taking the first stock because we can get camped once they get a lead and characters that tend to value stage control more than offstage gimping. MUs like WFT, Tink, and Villiger are what I can come up with off of the top of my head but I would need to play them with this move to know for sure. Another set of MUs in which it could be helpful are MUs where they can't do much to Flare Blitz recoveries. If they can't break the armor, counter, or stop the move with a projectile, you could conceivably recover with Flare Blitz almost every time. Or you could just learn to tech (assuming they don't have a spike). One of those.

edit: You also lose a quick jab 2 -> fly and a quick fly OoS, which sucks, but you don't get all that many chances for those in MUs where you're getting zoned hard anyway. This is substantially more important in the latter set of MUs I mentioned though.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

EvilPinkamina Have you even used Rising Cyclone before? If you jump into it, the jumping momentum takes over the starting momentum, and you actually go practically the same distance upwards.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Testing done in Skype chat showed that it went lower by about half of a charizard back when customs were used. Also, you won't always have a jump available to get the boost, making your recovery gimped if your opponent knows how to take a jump or edgeguard, since you're also giving up your super armor on fly.