Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Charizard

[Steeler]

Cyclone still has armor, frames 13-19 iirc (compared to 4-15 for Fly)

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Ok, less (and less useful) armor. The armor on fly is good because it occurs at the times when you would get punished. The first 10 frames are the most important with fly, because you usually are getting assaulted by p much any aerial that can affect you asap

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Ok, less (and less useful) armor. The armor on fly is good because it occurs at the times when you would get punished. The first 10 frames are the most important with fly, because you usually are getting assaulted by p much any aerial that can affect you asap

Well, while I haven't played that many customs matches, I have played quite a few where people tried to challenge rising cyclone by attacking my armor, and paid for it with their stock. If you time it right, the armor covers all the frames it needs to.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

If they're trying to challenge from above with ultimate spike dair featuring Ganon and Falcon, that's the issue. The optimal moves to punish are fast aerials, usually from the side in order to stage spike. Mario's nair, Luigi's Nair, Sheik's Nair/Fair/Bair(?), Pikachu's Nair, etc. Trying to punish either fly with a spike move is usually a dumb idea. Only time it would be good is against Rising Cyclone if they're already above you and planning to spike you anyway.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Honestly, Rising Cyclone is just not that good; not just because Fly is really good, but because on it's own merits it's just inferior.

It has superarmor, but then so does Fly; and Fly has it for 11 frames, while Cyclone only has it for 6 frames. Fly is just overall the much better option; it's a better OOS punish, it's better as an off-the-top kill move, and it's better as a recovery move because it's not leaving you vulnerable before it can get height off.

There's little reason to use Cyclone, since Fly is just better in most aspects. Even the non-damaging version is a better choice as a recovery move than Rising Cyclone, and Fly's a better OOS option. It's useless except for situational MU's that Fly does a better job at dealing with anyways. And it leaves you a sitting duck for being spiked, too, especially if you're trying to use it to snap to the ledge.

Honestly, default Fly is just better than Cyclone in pretty much every way.

 

[charizardbro]

Honestly, Rising Cyclone is just not that good; not just because Fly is really good, but because on it's own merits it's just inferior.

It has superarmor, but then so does Fly; and Fly has it for 11 frames, while Cyclone only has it for 6 frames. Fly is just overall the much better option; it's a better OOS punish, it's better as an off-the-top kill move, and it's better as a recovery move because it's not leaving you vulnerable before it can get height off.

There's little reason to use Cyclone, since Fly is just better in most aspects. Even the non-damaging version is a better choice as a recovery move than Rising Cyclone, and Fly's a better OOS option. It's useless except for situational MU's that Fly does a better job at dealing with anyways. And it leaves you a sitting duck for being spiked, too, especially if you're trying to use it to snap to the ledge.

Honestly, default Fly is just better than Cyclone in pretty much every way.

I mean, I'll bite.

Cyclone has less armor it can still be timed to work just like Fly does. It's just harder.

Fly isn't useable as an OoS punish in a lot of instances where your opponent spaces decently. Using Rising Cyclone might hurt hurt your punish game OoS (you trade speed for better horizontal range) but it might not even matter if your opponent spaces well.

Fly doesn't kill off the top better than Rising Cyclone in terms of knockback. You might think that Fly is easier to land due to the quicker startup but this shouldn't matter if you are exclusively using it to punish airdodges.

it's better as a recovery move because it's not leaving you vulnerable before it can get height off.

Not really sure what you mean by this. Being higher up when you get armor has no bearing on your ability to recover unless you are at max distance and need to truck through a spike which is negligible imo because the armor hardly comes out later. You could argue that it's easier to time armoring through spikes when the armor comes out earlier though.

It's also worth noting that Rising Cyclone has longer startup as well as later armor. For all I know, the armor comes for Rising Cyclone does come out to protect Zard when he first "gets height off."

There's little reason to use Cyclone, since Fly is just better in most aspects. Even the non-damaging version is a better choice as a recovery move than Rising Cyclone, and Fly's a better OOS option. It's useless except for situational MU's that Fly does a better job at dealing with anyways. And it leaves you a sitting duck for being spiked, too, especially if you're trying to use it to snap to the ledge.

I don't think it's nearly that black and white. The trade offs for using Rising Cyclone over Fly are clear and, generally speaking, bring Zard's Uspecial a step down from where it was but that doesn't mean that Fly is overwhelmingly better in every MU.

Think of the MUs where we don't get shield grabs/OoS punishes and offstage fights are rare, and chances are Rising Cyclone is a viable option if you are a hyper offensive Zard.