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What uses are you getting from it and who are you using it for? Flamethrower is too good as a momentum-killer/approach option/edgeguard that I can't imagine seriously running something else. Fireball Cannon, I can kinda see the potential of but Fire Fang? I'm iffy on it.Am I the only one who actually likes Fire Fang?
As you've pointed out yourself, 3333 isn't as good an option because you use Fly High, when you'd prefer Fly. As a couple people have said above, with expanding the number of sets, we should have a fireball cannon set anyway.I'm not really sure if it's worth losing Fly.
You might as well use 3333 at that point, no? (or are we dropping those now?)
We are dropping those now. 3333 does not seem like a good Charizard set and won't be used.I think we've already come to the conclusion that Rising Cyclone is pretty subpar compared to the other two. And after spending some time with Fly High, I'm not really sure if it's worth losing Fly.
I'm honestly not sure about 1333 and 3313. You might as well use 3333 at that point, no? (or are we dropping those now?)
Yeah, the idea is we're potentially dropping 2222/3333 as well as filling in the extra two slots for uploading, for tournaments that don't allow it, as EVO is doing.I think we've already come to the conclusion that Rising Cyclone is pretty subpar compared to the other two. And after spending some time with Fly High, I'm not really sure if it's worth losing Fly.
I'm honestly not sure about 1333 and 3313. You might as well use 3333 at that point, no? (or are we dropping those now?)
I'll agree on 1213 and 1333, as well as a Fireball Cannon set. I think in terms of the actual applications, the difference between Rock Smash or Rock Hurl is negligible, with the only major difference between the speed of the armour and the actual power. Don't think there'll necessarily be more people for one over the other so I'd just pick one and throw it in. (If I had to pick, I'd probably go for Rock Hurl since it adds a little bit of safety that you give up going from Flamethrower to Fireball Cannon.) Not sure how much demand Rising Cyclone will actually have but the last set could support any one of the unused customs, and I guess it's as good a choice as any. It probably has more general utility than Fire Fang or Sinking Skull, I guess. Again, I'd probably run Rock Hurl with Rising Cyclone.I'm thinking of adding 1213, 1333, one of 3311 and 3313, and then one of 1321 and 1323 right now.
Fly seems best against jump heavy characters, but even then is extremly risky a move espeically when you have his throw anyway. And heck even when it hits it can sometimes be punished if it's not very solidRegulas- OoS Fly is a legit enough killmove, while Dragon Rush is as good or better a killmove than Blitz due to offstage usage. The self damage really isn't anywhere near the deciding factor with Rush-- it's the godlike punish power of the move.
Did you just say Flamethrower is worthless? It's one of our best moves. It's what allows us to say STOP for a second and get some breathing room.Flamethrower: Contrary to how the playerbase seems to feel (who love it), in tourney play this appears to be basically worthless, it’s only ever used for edge guard and seems a poor punishable choice at that.
I believe the best sets are 1333 and 3333. The hitbox on up b is worthless, we might as well have the little bit of extra height. Rock hurl is better imo because of the extra height that it can reach at. This means that if you whiff it and the opponent is coming at you from above it could still disrupt them. Also if you get them with the attack, it pops them up and you can do it again for some additional damage. And Fireball Cannon can be used for edge guarding.
My evidence although anecdotal is that in tournament play Flamethrower is A) rarely used B) rarely achieves anything when used and C) is frequently punished when it is used. Thus this seems to suggest that at least in high level tournament play the move is nearly worthless, because the only cases where they use it usually they end up worse for it, and the rare case where it does anything the result is trivial and not anything more then canon would have done.Did you just say Flamethrower is worthless? It's one of our best moves. It's what allows us to say STOP for a second and get some breathing room.
As a punish move it could be acceptable but in general it has the same problem most UP B moves have in that it is very very punishable in the worst kind of way.It's, like, one of the best non-grab OoS option in the game. The hits even smoothly connect to each other, it kills earlier than up smash and the height difference between it and Fly High is negligible. (especially if you hold backwards to gain as much vertical height as possible)
I agree that Flamethrower is the best for ledge situations, too. I've had traumatic experiences using FC on the ledge, but at least it's great for taking stage control.I take back all the hypothetical stuff I said about Fireball Cannon, the move is garbage. Can't gimp anything because it doesn't angle as sharply as Flamethrower. Way more unsafe than Flamethrower. Less damage. Use Flamethrower please. Yeah it can be punished but at least it does more damage, especially at the ledge, and is a good option against shields.
Not to mention that sinking skull is basically a completely sub-par DK headbutt with no armor. No extra shield damage and no armor = ew.Hello Charizard boards, thought I would give my take on certain moves, namely Fire Fang. The main merit of this move is how fast it racks up damage. The bite at the end when you release the button does 8% and the hits prior deal 2% each. With an average of 16% per time you land Fire Fang it becomes apparent why some (like myself) would enjoy this move. This isn't to say it has more room to stand than the others, but in my opinion all of Zard's Neutral Bs have some utility. To me it seems like it would be a player/playstyle preference call as opposed to a matchup call for Fang.
In regards to Rising Cyclone, the only way I've been able to guarantee the final hit is making sure I am not on the same horizontal location as the opponent. Being right above them, or coming in from below *seems to guarantee the final hit.
Last move I'd like to touch on is Sinking Skull. I understand 100% why this isn't the popular choice. It's not bad on it's own, but when compared to base Rock Smash or Rock Hurl and the area they cover there's no real reason to use it over them.
I don't think Blast Burn needs up-3 at all, but it doesn't go badly with it either. And yes, Blast Burn is probably the most fun move in this game. If side-B is doing no work for you otherwise, Blast Burn is quite the trump card to have in your back pocket.I really want to do some more research into Fire Fang.
I absolutely agree that since Flamethrower is already pretty safe on shield, a lot of Fire Fang's function is covered. I think the major advantage to Fire Fang is the amount of reward vs Flamethrower for pressuring a shield up close. Potentially a solid amount of damage and a KO option. Do we know how safe it is on shield?
I dunno, seems like it might be a very solid choice if you aren't getting much reward out of the other neutral Bs
EDIT: HOLY F*CK MORE BLAST BURN SETZ PLZ.
@ Amazing Ampharos
Tried blast burn tonight and it is insane. I was actually having trouble applying dragon Rush so I decided to give BB a whirl, and Jesus does this thing destroy. Tech chases at 50% become death traps from hell. Seems like it almost takes out a full shield too. Edgeguarding with it is so manly.It also has the unique ability of being able to ledge snap from the stage.
So I'm all for more blast burn. I could see a 3211/3213 set being alright too. Do you think it's necessary to have fly high if you lose out on the SideB recovery? I really hate losing Fly
Unless you are completely on the other side of the stage, I don't recommend using using cannon on stage. I pretty much use it to tack on additional damage when my opponents are offstage, and it's not bad at that.Yes, having to commit to three bursts of flame with the Cannon definitely requires you don't use it stupidly. That said, it's still absolutely the go-to choice against campy characters with poor mobility like Villager and Duck Hunt.
Against someone like Duck Hunt, I often would be.Unless you are completely on the other side of the stage, I don't recommend using using cannon on stage. I pretty much use it to tack on additional damage when my opponents are offstage, and it's not bad at that.
I think you're seriously, seriously overselling Flamethrower. It's not a bad move, but... unmatched utility? Come on, let's be honst here. Flamethrower isn't THAT good. I've never seen a tournament match (and believe me, I've looked) where I thought to myself "Man, thank god he was using Flamethrower, he'd be screwed without it."Flamethrower is just unmatched in utility, why would you want a ****ty low damage projectile that nobody cares about that locks you into doing it 3 times when you can have such an amazing move. Fire Fang is just a shorter range version of Flamethrower which kills its purpose.