Official Stage Legality Discussion

[DtJ Hilt]

All of NA's logic gets routed through the BBR, because we take it 100% seriously.

Honestly, OS, your argument is piss-weak. It essentially boils down to this:

"I know something you don't about the stage that makes it fine. I don't need to prove this because I know more and you are stupid."

I'm not below admitting that I am wrong about the stage. I would love for there to be more viable stages in the game, and I personally am a fan of LM - I CPd it quite a lot when it was legal here. But as of now I have a plethora of reasons it should be banned and very few reasons it shouldn't.

Actually you're wrong. That's not what's being said at all. What he's saying is that you all played on mansion, found that it was broken, and didn't find the way around these strategies that can be found by regular play on this stage.

Also, we're not discussing what should be legal at your tournament, or a tournament you will attend. So saying that you don't need to prove your point because of that is dumb. What's being discussed is what should be done, whether it is or not. Innocent until proven guilty. You said "Mansion should be banned because of X" and then OS said "No, you're wrong, you can do Y, Z, etc" and you have yet to give a good counter argument other than putting down his region, giving faulty reasoning on whether or not you should give a counter argument, and talked about his elitist attitude (which is true, I know). The point is that you've avoided coming up with a counter argument because you don't have one. And if you do, you're definitely beating around the bush enough.

People have still chosen Yoshi's Island as a cp, and just had the three neutral stages has Smashville, FD, and Battlefield. Even if they didn't think it thoroughly enough, they still chose Yoshi's Island as a cp. They must've had some reasoning as to why it was.

And another thing is that I've seen more successful meteor smashes on that stage than any other stage. It's shape has made recoveries the easiest to punish. That's probably one of it's only cp qualities.

If anything, I want to know if changing Yoshi's Island to be a cp would have any effect at all in tournies. Maybe it's more like PS1 and Lylat than people would think.

People choose bf as a counterpick too. Does that mean it should not be a neutral? Different players have their stages that they like and the stages they're most comfortable on. Yoshi's island is a smart pick against a diddy kong, as it messes up his banana game slightly. It's a good stage for Lucario as it's small in size and the walls are wall clingable, among other reasons. However, these advantages and disadvantages aren't drastic enough for it to become a counterpick stage. They're no worse than advantages or disadvantages one would get on battlefield and to a greater extent, FD. In probably 90% of the matchups, yoshi's island isn't going to make too big of a difference. The stage isn't going to give a tremendous advantage to one character, and it's an all around neutral stage in matchups. That's why it should be a neutral stage.

 

[fkacyan]

reasoning on whether or not you should give a counter argument, and talked about his elitist attitude (which is true, I know). The point is that you've avoided coming up with a counter argument because you don't have one. And if you do, you're definitely beating around the bush enough.

How can I give a counterargument to undocumented counters to a strategy? The strategies I refer to are well-known and have been posted in several videos. When asking OS for evidence as to what he's talking about, I do not do so facetiously - Hearing what to do described in words and actually seeing it done are two different things entirely.

If OS actually shows me what he's talking about, then I can look at it, analyze it, and see if he's wrong or if I need to counterdebate it. If that doesn't happen, there's really not much I can do; all it becomes is one giant theorycraft argument, and discussing that in terms of realtime competition is always a bad idea.

 

[Overswarm]

How can I give a counterargument to undocumented counters to a strategy? The strategies I refer to are well-known and have been posted in several videos. When asking OS for evidence as to what he's talking about, I do not do so facetiously - Hearing what to do described in words and actually seeing it done are two different things entirely.

If OS actually shows me what he's talking about, then I can look at it, analyze it, and see if he's wrong or if I need to counterdebate it. If that doesn't happen, there's really not much I can do; all it becomes is one giant theorycraft argument, and discussing that in terms of realtime competition is always a bad idea.

You haven't shown me a strategy to counteract. I can go back to vids on my profile I posted in 2008 and show me tornado spamming someone and say "he should have pressed A once to be invincible and hit me out of the tornado with his getup attack (unless he's sheik, who has a blind spot)", but that wouldn't do much good to anyone.

Care to show me what's broken?

 

[fkacyan]

You haven't shown me a strategy to counteract. I can go back to vids on my profile I posted in 2008 and show me tornado spamming someone and say "he should have pressed A once to be invincible and hit me out of the tornado with his getup attack (unless he's sheik, who has a blind spot)", but that wouldn't do much good to anyone.

Care to show me what's broken?

Nado -> Move behind pillar -> Camp -> Nado when they do something stupid like using a getup attack.

Like I said, we can play "Should" games all day. It's pointless. You claim that there are superior strategies that make the stage fine. If so, I'd imagine there'd be videos somewhere. It's not like there's any harm in posting them or, if they don't exist, making them specifically to post.

 

[Overswarm]

Nado -> Move behind pillar -> Camp -> Nado when they do something stupid like using a getup attack.

Like I said, we can play "Should" games all day. It's pointless. You claim that there are superior strategies that make the stage fine. If so, I'd imagine there'd be videos somewhere. It's not like there's any harm in posting them or, if they don't exist, making them specifically to post.

What do you mean "superior strategies"? Superior strategies to what?


Also, lol @ your example.

The moment you are tornado'ed with a ceiling above you, you can:

tech + nair instantly out of tech (bair with some characters)
hit the ceiling, then ground, then get up attack (hitting the tornadoing MK)

There's no "tornado and move behind the pillar". It isn't an option unless the MK is already moving in that direction, or does a grand total of, oh, 4 damage before moving... which is hardly a broken strategy.

The pillar also shields from nothing other than projectiles (except for the projectiles of Lucas and Ness' up+b, Ness over-b creates a wall of fire, ROB's laser, Pit's arrow when circled, Waddledoo's laser, Snakes C4 and mines, and other such things), making it an odd camping spot... especially since the pillar extends hitboxes, making punishing a move that hits the pillar nigh impossible unless you do it OoS. Spot dodging is more difficult too for the same reason.

The pillars also aren't a constant; a player can easily (and safely) destroy the entire top level or even one entire side, forcing the opponent to suddenly be in a position that can literally crumble before them or to leave their fortified position to approach an opponent.


Please, show me a video of domination on this stage. I'm pretty sure if you could even find one, watching it yourself would simply have you say "Oh" and you'd realize how silly techniques like "tornado and retreat behind a pillar" are.

 

[Ripple]

I believe theres a video of me beating OS on mansion somehwere

 

[fkacyan]

The moment you are tornado'ed with a ceiling above you, you can:

tech + nair instantly out of tech (bair with some characters)
hit the ceiling, then ground, then get up attack (hitting the tornadoing MK)

There's no "tornado and move behind the pillar". It isn't an option unless the MK is already moving in that direction, or does a grand total of, oh, 4 damage before moving... which is hardly a broken strategy.

You'll just tech straight back into the tornado. Unless techs have changed recently the invincibility frames don't extend past the tech animation itself, thus not giving you time to act. As far as getup attacking, the second they hit the ground you just move away. That's simple enough, and it's not very hard to tell when they would hit the ground and have the time needed to start the attack.

And as far as camping goes, how is a guaranteed safe 4% a bad thing? On a stage with potential circling and matches that you yourself say can often go to time, easy percent leads that can easily be boosted seem to be a prime manner in which to win on that stage.

If you destroy the stage, MK can simply fly around for twenty seconds, or plank for 20 seconds. If you plan on destroying half, he can wreck the other half while you're on the other side, safe from your ability to punish him for doing so.

The idea is that the technique is silly, OS. It's silly because it looks easily beatable but it isn't because the principles behind it are actually pretty sound.

The pillar also shields from nothing other than projectiles (except for the projectiles of Lucas and Ness' up+b, Ness over-b creates a wall of fire, ROB's laser, Pit's arrow when circled, Waddledoo's laser, Snakes C4 and mines, and other such things), making it an odd camping spot...

especially since the pillar extends hitboxes, making punishing a move that hits the pillar nigh impossible unless you do it OoS.

And with large, powerful hitboxes like MK's fsmash, you just described exactly why it's a good camping spot in the same paragraph you said it wasn't.

 

[Overswarm]

I believe theres a video of me beating OS on mansion somehwere

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEPOtY5JwiY

Hey, 18 days after 2008!

You also forgot the ending.

 

[Overswarm]

You'll just tech straight back into the tornado. Unless techs have changed recently the invincibility frames don't extend past the tech animation itself, thus not giving you time to act. As far as getup attacking, the second they hit the ground you just move away. That's simple enough, and it's not very hard to tell when they would hit the ground and have the time needed to start the attack.

And as far as camping goes, how is a guaranteed safe 4% a bad thing? On a stage with potential circling and matches that you yourself say can often go to time, easy percent leads that can easily be boosted seem to be a prime manner in which to win on that stage.

If you destroy the stage, MK can simply fly around for twenty seconds, or plank for 20 seconds. If you plan on destroying half, he can wreck the other half while you're on the other side, safe from your ability to punish him for doing so.

The idea is that the technique is silly, OS. It's silly because it looks easily beatable but it isn't because the principles behind it are actually pretty sound.

None of this is true. None of it has even come close to being shown at high level play, only scrub level and back in the days when people said "Oh, you have to destroy the top first?"

 

[Ripple]

hey thio, you realize that if MK has to move away from you so they don't get hit. then you can move also.

thats not broken especially since you can probably shield if you move away.

its just a weird tech chase. thats it

 

[fkacyan]

None of this is true. None of it has even come close to being shown at high level play, only scrub level and back in the days when people said "Oh, you have to destroy the top first?"

LM is rarely if ever used at high level play anymore because in areas where much of the high level play takes place the stage is banned (NA, Texas, etc). Saying "None of this happens" is true, but not because you have proven it doesn't work but simply because the stage is never used by the caliber of player who would be patient enough to abuse the stage in such a manner.

Apex, Pound, HOBO, etc all ban it, thus making data collection past the period of time you keep saying is invalid impossible.

Just because it worked then and we've gotten better doesn't mean the strategy is invalidated. RMP as a 3s comp in WoW is still just as good as it was seven arena seasons and a year and a half ago, with the same basic strategy.

 

[infomon]

How can I give a counterargument to undocumented counters to a strategy? The strategies I refer to are well-known and have been posted in several videos.

Please post some of the videos, I'd love to see them.

 

[Overswarm]

I'd also like to see these examples.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Same here.

 

[fkacyan]

In the middle of a raid at the moment, so I'll leave you with one video for now, and a brief explanation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujLvRh_4JHQ <--- Plank (MK) vs toasty (ROB)

Every single time Plank starts to camp on the other side of a pillar or spam tornado, toasty has no options. At the end, when he starts to circle camp, once again, toasty has no options.

If you can think of a way the ROB could consistently punish MK after being hit by tornado, you will be the first I've met.

Potentially more if I'm not exhausted later.

 

[Overswarm]

Before watching the video:

ROB can't punish MK's tornado on any stage. Literally, he can't, it is impossible unless MK messes up.

You just posted a matchup so in MK's favor that there are no original ROB mains left, as they all have quit to either main MK, stop playing Brawl, or playing a hacked Brawl game.

You're gonna need more.

 

[Ripple]

lol I knew that video was going to be posted. everyone's seen it.

I remember when I kinda mained ROB. then I played against overswarm and got 3 stocked. then I didn't main ROB.

isn't chibo the only main left?

 

[Overswarm]

While watching the video

:40

DI and then Tech, roll, air dodge, getup attack, whatever he wanted. In fact, he did just that at :50. He does it again at 3:11, except he rolls the wrong way.

Regardless... he gets out. It's not a super strategy, it's just one that is easy to do.

When he's being hit with the tornado normally, he just falls back in if he DIs out. He could have up+bed away from the tornado if he had chosen to do so.


When Plank starts "circle camping" Toasty could just.... destroy the pillars. He doesn't. In fact, Plank doesn't even start doing this until there are thirty seconds left in the game and he's on a fresh 3rd stock. He could have just jumped 5 times and over-b'd straight up, gotten hit when he landed, then done it again and won.

Try again.

isn't chibo the only main left?

Him and stingers, but the ROB metagame is dead. even the small time ROBs are coming int othe forums after months of posting and saying "MK" and hten disappearing.

 

[Ripple]

edit: nvm

10 chars

 

[jivegamer]

Please re-direct me if this has already been discussed/is being discussed elsewhere, but is there a case to be made for Delfino in the neutral/counterpick category?

 

[Overswarm]

Delfino was the most popular starter in the midwest during its time in that group; it ws removed due to the vast number of walls, walk-offs, water KOs, shortened blast zones, etc., etc., that result in fairly radical changes to who wins from time to time. This behavior is generally more suited for a counterpick, and thus it was moved.

 

[Jinxkatrina8]

Why isn't Distant Planet banned? That stage is incredibly obnoxious =.=, same goes for YI (melee), both stages are insanely unfair... Yoshi's Island (melee) gives a ridiculous advantage to people with good spikes (middle) and good horizontal KOs, doesn't it? And DP is just a ridiculous stage, unless you really know the stage playing on it is incredibly gay =.=

 

[buenob]

^ just so you know, you're gonna get picked apart for saying "unless you really know the stage"

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

???? Distant Planet was banned IIRC.

Why ban BOE for the purpose of avoiding long matches when MK makes matches long anyway?
BOE's celing is THE SAME HEIGHT AS FD when you look in Brawlbox, 180.
The only difference is BOE's floor is SLIGHTLT lower than FD, (like 10 is a big difference).

The horizontal blast zones of both stages are the same as well, 240, -240.

Anyone have an explanation for why it's still banned?

 

[clowsui]

walk offs + ddd = ???
furthermore it gives a huge advantage to projectile characters (read: falco) who can just sit and shoot lasers all day on one side

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Distant Planet is counterpick/banned on the current SBR stage list. In most actual tournaments, it is banned. I don't think there has ever been any attempt to rigorously defend this ban while there have been a few to fight it, but the reality is that most players find the stage incredibly obnoxious for several reasons. The walk-off, due to the slope, is way less powerful than a usual walk-off too, but I think a lot of players don't realize that.

 

[Overswarm]

Distant Planet is counterpick/banned on the current SBR stage list. In most actual tournaments, it is banned. I don't think there has ever been any attempt to rigorously defend this ban while there have been a few to fight it, but the reality is that most players find the stage incredibly obnoxious for several reasons. The walk-off, due to the slope, is way less powerful than a usual walk-off too, but I think a lot of players don't realize that.

It was used as a counterpick by Hilt at the recent OUGA tournament to decent success; he got 4th in the tournament, using it only twice. Once to beat Smash64's Ness, and the other losing to Kel's Metaknight.

I again saw nothing wrong with that stage nor Port Town Aero Dive. We had literally 0 situations involving cars that couldn't have been prevented by the player... again.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah I ended up counterpicking the stage four or five times and never came close to losing a game on it until Kel barely beat me. I think it's a fine counterpick stage, although that's heavily due to it being broken for my character. The walkoffs don't do much more than give DDD a one way walkoff cg, and bring kills a bit easier from the slope. The nature of the slant, however, is heavily different from normal play and different characters take advantage of it in different ways. The platforms are dangerous to stay on top of for too long, as they'll slowly drop and you become more vulnerable. The bulborb is hardly a hazard and instead acts more as a much larger version of the mercy platforms in frigate. The pellets give characters a projectile, which can be seen as something good or bad. For characters who's projectiles travel the angle of the slant, the pellets give the character a way to attack the regular stage from the slant. Also, throwing the pellet down (while grounded) causes it to travel in an awkward trajectory which is good as a mixup against those not expecting it.

The stage also helps those with bad recoveries as, on the right side, it gives two ledges for recovering that the opponent cannot cover at once. Oftentimes, if I was trapped on a ledge, I could drop from it and retreat to the other and still be safe.

The stage would actually be a great stage to take diddy to, as the three leaf platforms destroy his banana game, and they move too much and make grabbing them in the air difficult. The slant also hurts his banana game, since items are always thrown horizontally and not effected by slants.

 

[Ol-Jeb]

Yeah I ended up counterpicking the stage four or five times and never came close to losing a game on it until Kel barely beat me. I think it's a fine counterpick stage, although that's heavily due to it being broken for my character. The walkoffs don't do much more than give DDD a one way walkoff cg, and bring kills a bit easier from the slope. The nature of the slant, however, is heavily different from normal play and different characters take advantage of it in different ways. The platforms are dangerous to stay on top of for too long, as they'll slowly drop and you become more vulnerable. The bulborb is hardly a hazard and instead acts more as a much larger version of the mercy platforms in frigate. The pellets give characters a projectile, which can be seen as something good or bad. For characters who's projectiles travel the angle of the slant, the pellets give the character a way to attack the regular stage from the slant. Also, throwing the pellet down (while grounded) causes it to travel in an awkward trajectory which is good as a mixup against those not expecting it.

The stage also helps those with bad recoveries as, on the right side, it gives two ledges for recovering that the opponent cannot cover at once. Oftentimes, if I was trapped on a ledge, I could drop from it and retreat to the other and still be safe.

The stage would actually be a great stage to take diddy to, as the three leaf platforms destroy his banana game, and they move too much and make grabbing them in the air difficult. The slant also hurts his banana game, since items are always thrown horizontally and not effected by slants.

That....actually makes a lot of sense. I never thought of the various advantages the level could give, as well as how it changes up the gameplay due to the slant. Hell I'm going to start practicing there. What were the reasons its in the CP/Ban list? It doesn't seem like its broken...

 

[jivegamer]

"Rain makes the left side slippery and hard to walk on, Bulborb, Walk off edges " - Smashwiki

Any walk-offs that are constantly present in the stage will probably mean that said stage is either cp/banned or banned I guess. I love all of the cp/banned stages so I'm for allowing it.

 

[Linkshot]

Walk-off Slopes behave far more differently than flat walk-offs.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The angle matters since on Pipes DDD can still CG some characters up the slope.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Multiple ledges? Maybe Ivysaur has a chance at actually recovering.

But, to be honest, I don't see a huge problem with Distant Planet and to keep it as a counterpick seems fine. The true hazards end up being the slope/rain slope and the Bulborb. But, in reality, they end up being less of a hazard when you come to think about it.

The slope itself can only be abused by a certain few, if any at all but one or two. And hell, if the Bulborb is killing you (and the creature itself should by no means be a place to hold the fight because you think it's viable to fight on), then I can't see that being anything other than the player's fault.

 

[deepseadiva]

I heard this is cool. MLG stage list:

Starter Stages
Battlefield
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium
Smashville
Yoshi’s Island

Counter-Pick Stages
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Norfair
Pictochat
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise

http://www.mlgpro.com/pro-circuit/2010/

 

[fkacyan]

I heard this is cool. MLG stage list:

Starter Stages
Battlefield
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium
Smashville
Yoshi’s Island

Counter-Pick Stages
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Norfair
Pictochat
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise

http://www.mlgpro.com/pro-circuit/2010/

I'm willing to bet that the first match will start on the original five about 75% of the time, and the core three about 50% of the time at MLG.

Pictochat, Norfair, and Green Greens?! Gah. These stages aggravate me to the point that I almost wish I had some input as to which stages went in.

 

[deepseadiva]

Keep in mind the ruleset also includes an edge grab limit (35 all around, 45 on Norfair).

 

[fkacyan]

Keep in mind the ruleset also includes an edge grab limit (35 all around, 45 on Norfair).

If you learn your spacing properly with MK you can drill rush from edge to edge without ever actually grabbing them, for one. Jiggs especially, with rising pound, can take a lot of time off the edge and abuse the the lava damage that you will inevitably take chasing her around.

Honestly, I doubt to see the stage used much at all, but it's still awful.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Good to know MLG is smart enough to know that CPs are actually, you know, Counter Picks like Green Greens and Norfair, instead of being weak and deciding Rainbow Cruise is as extreme as they can go.

 

[Linkshot]

Needs more Port Town.
You guys know that on the part where the cars appear from the side, the first 3 do nothing at all, and are just there to tell you "CARS", right?

Also, Zelda actually stands a chance on this stage XD

 

[Bug Style]

Sadly, I think Rumble Falls is one of the stages that may require its own topic.

GAY, considering that anyone can throw you into the spikes... that's worse than asking for poke floats to be legal