Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Linkshot]

Anyone can tech the wall, too. Anyone can avoid the spikes.
My only complaint is the chokepoint at this time.

 

[infomon]

holy crap MLG's stagelist ...... makes sense!!!!??

*dies happy*


oh wait, a scrubtastic ledgegrab limit...... sigh.
oh well that's not as bad as it could be.

 

[Linkshot]

It's only for timeouts, though, so that made me happy.

The Counterpick list feels empty, but that's just me.

 

[MK26]

I heard this is cool. MLG stage list:

Awesome list

http://www.mlgpro.com/pro-circuit/2010/

A stage list that actually makes sense? *single tear*

It looks kinda empty on the cp front, but thats because everything's neutral, i suppose

Like, look at it with the 'normal' neutrals:

Starter Stages
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi’s Island

Counter-Pick Stages
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Halberd
Norfair
Pictochat
Pokémon Stadium
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise​

That looks better, no? (EDIT: hmmm...i guess it still looks kinda empty :/)

Only thing I'm iffy about is the presence of PS2 while Japes, and to a lesser extent Mansion, are absent.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

PS2 is obviously better than Japes, but yeah Japes is an odd exclusion. Otherwise though, I find the MLG's stage list a pretty reasonable compromise, and with that starter list, I can't legitimately complain.

 

[Linkshot]

Japes and Mansion! Right! That's why it looks empty!

 

[UltiMario]

I can understand if they wanted to leave out Mansion but Japes absolutely dumbfounds me.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Extremely campy stage.

 

[dniMretsaM]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that every stage should be legal. Before you say "Screw you n00b", please read the whole post.

I think that every stage should be legal because it gives more variety and allows for more strategies involving counter picking. Now I know you're thinking "But this stage gives character X a huge advantage." You're probably right; but isn't that the whole point of counter picking? There are most likely going to be some stages that most people aren't going to want to play very often, but don't want to strike/ban it because it doesn't necessarily give there character a disadvantage, but they just don't want to play on it. To compensate for this, players should be able to meet before each set and come up with "agreed bans." Stages that that both players agree not to pick at any time during that set; thus, removing the need to strike/ban those stages.

This is probably just my opinion, but that is how I think it should be.

 

[jivegamer]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that every stage should be legal. Before you say "Screw you n00b", please read the whole post.

I think that every stage should be legal because it gives more variety and allows for more strategies involving counter picking. Now I know you're thinking "But this stage gives character X a huge advantage." You're probably right; but isn't that the whole point of counter picking? There are most likely going to be some stages that most people aren't going to want to play very often, but don't want to strike/ban it because it doesn't necessarily give there character a disadvantage, but they just don't want to play on it. To compensate for this, players should be able to meet before each set and come up with "agreed bans." Stages that that both players agree not to pick at any time during that set; thus, removing the need to strike/ban those stages.

This is probably just my opinion, but that is how I think it should be.

Some stages are just not suited for competition. They can fundamentally alter the way the game is played in a fashion that completely negates player talent. Considering how upset many competitive smashers are at how "liberal" the MLG stage list is, I think they would completely disregard the idea of allowing all stages...

...I would go with it though

 

[Linkshot]

Fox is instant win on Temple, New Pork, Summit, and Spear Pillar. Instant.
With $1000 on the line, people will run away and press B for 8 minutes.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Shoot, I'll do that for 75 cents.


I actually have stalled out money matches for 75 cents.

 

[Linkshot]

I will stall out in friendlies just to show newcomers what happens at tournaments.

 

[UltiMario]

Stallin is booooooring

Unless you're like Fox on temple.

Then its so funny because all noobs get their hopes and dreams destroyed and they get so pissed from their favorite stage being their own demise lol.

 

[infomon]

wait wait wait

JAPES is banned in MLG?

FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU------------------

 

[jivegamer]

Stalin is booooooring

How can you find comrade Stalin boring?! Straight to Gulag for you!!!

Stalin is from Georgia. Georgia is a country typified by mountainous geography. Mountains are in the background of Castle Siege. Castle Siege is a stage that I believe should never be a neutral or Neutral/CP. I have just made this post retroactively relevant .

 

[Linkshot]

Stalin is the strongest stage hazard ever.

 

[dniMretsaM]

Some stages are just not suited for competition. They can fundamentally alter the way the game is played in a fashion that completely negates player talent.

That's a good point, but that's what the "agreed ban" rule is for. I just think that players should be able to play on any stage if they so choose; and, if one person takes the time to "learn" a stage and come up with a strategy regarding it, but not the other player, they deserve to win.

Fox is instant win on Temple, New Pork, Summit, and Spear Pillar. Instant.
With $1000 on the line, people will run away and press B for 8 minutes.

Yes, but like I said, that's what counter picking is for. If you're fighting a character who has a huge advantage on X stage(s) strike/ban them first.

 

[Linkshot]

So you're suggesting each player get...how many bans? 10?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This is the fair warning post. Ridiculous posts that are clearly totally irrelevant to the topic like this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9908938&postcount=1456

have no place in this thread.

 

[MK26]

This is the fair warning post. Ridiculous posts that are clearly totally irrelevant to the topic like this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9908938&postcount=1456

have no place in this thread.

Aww c'mon AA, don't be a killjoy
We need some light humour at the expense of the commies once in a while

(And to make sure I don't get infracted for this):
MasterMind (dniMretsaM, w/e), the fact of the matter is that stages are banned not because they give a specific chracter or two a huge advantage (if that was the case, FD would've been gone a long time ago),but because they lead to degenerate gameplay - cases where a single tactic can allow a weak player to defeat a vastly superior player with little or no effort on his part. The most commonly cited example is Fox - if we had 75m, or Hanenbow, or Temple, etc., as legal stages, you could run away and shoot lasers for 8 minutes and easily win, because your opponent probably wouldn't be able to catch up to you. A related case is that of permanent walkoffs/walls - trap your opponent in an easy situation to be trapped in, and suddenly they're at high damage due to a wall lock, or they just passed the side blastzone because you were camping the walkoff. Other stages simply have too much going on, so the focus of the match changes from fighting your opponent to fighting the stage (see Flat Zone 2, Mario Bros.).

So, to get to the point, certainly there are stages that need to be banned. Not all 41 Brawl stages are fit for competition, but which are and which aren't is up for discussion.

 

[PurpleTop]

i recently started playing a lot at yoshi's island [brawl]... i <3 it!

 

[jivegamer]

I didn't know so many people had problems with Pictochat. I thought it was a commonly used stage (I haven't been to an irl tourny), so I was surprised to hear most people complaining about it. I guess even with the safe zone and 13 seconds in-between hazards, most people just think the hazards are too much.

Check my last post...I edited it for relevance!

 

[Linkshot]

I think most people want this to be Street Fighter but with Knockback :/

 

[DtJ Hilt]

It's a lot more accepted than it use to be, but yeah, banning pictochat is really dumb.

 

[dniMretsaM]

So you're suggesting each player get...how many bans? 10?

Personal bans? No. I think that each player should have 2 (due to the fact that there are more stages).
Agreed bans? The two players can agree to ban as many stages as they want.

MasterMind (dniMretsaM, w/e)

I prefer MasterMind

the fact of the matter is that stages are banned not because they give a specific chracter or two a huge advantage (if that was the case, FD would've been gone a long time ago)

I know that, I never said that it was.

Aww c'mon AA, don't be a killjoy
MasterMind (dniMretsaM, w/e), the fact of the matter is that stages are banned not because they give a specific chracter or two a huge advantage (if that was the case, FD would've been gone a long time ago),but because they lead to degenerate gameplay - cases where a single tactic can allow a weak player to defeat a vastly superior player with little or no effort on his part. The most commonly cited example is Fox - if we had 75m, or Hanenbow, or Temple, etc., as legal stages, you could run away and shoot lasers for 8 minutes and easily win, because your opponent probably wouldn't be able to catch up to you. A related case is that of permanent walkoffs/walls - trap your opponent in an easy situation to be trapped in, and suddenly they're at high damage due to a wall lock, or they just passed the side blastzone because you were camping the walkoff. Other stages simply have too much going on, so the focus of the match changes from fighting your opponent to fighting the stage (see Flat Zone 2, Mario Bros.).

Exellent points. But...
First point(Fox, wall locks etc.): It is for reasons like this that I have said that each player should have 2 personal bans. The fact that a given character can win (almost) instantly win on those stages regardless of skill level is no different than any other situation. If you are playing under the current rule set and you are a character who can get chain grabbed (not infinitly) by D3, you are going to strike/ban stages like FD and BF; you're going to try to pick a stage like Norfair.

Second point(FZ2, MB):Stages like this are not necessarily
unfit for competition. If someone took the time to create a stratagy for it and could consistantly win, would it not be fit for competition? FZ2 is actually not that bad.

Now, this rule is not meant to be set in stone; it is only meant tobe a general guideline. There could be exceptions in extreme cases (such as fox); also, to make it easier, certain stages could be auto baned in finals.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Just think about it. Let's say the only character I know how to play is Bowser. This is bad for a lot of reasons, but I deserve at least a fair shake at playing out the matchups, right? Well, the other guy picks someone who runs faster than Bowser and has a projectile (many choices with the easiest ones being Fox or Toon Link) and has their free run of stage choice. So I use my two personal bans on Temple and New Pork City, both of which are auto-wins for the other guy. It doesn't matter; he still picks Summit or Spear Pillar: Cresselia (and PkMn works, Cresselia just makes running the loop easiest). It's auto-win if the faster character's player is remotely competent.

Then you have stages like WarioWare and Mario Bros. On these stages, sure it's not super character biased so no one wants to ban it explicitly, but the match results are pretty random. So if you get to thinking your opponent is better than you, why not gamble and pick these stages? Stupid stuff happens, you get wins you really don't deserve. I mean, I am a long and tired advocate of "luck is a part of the game". If you lose to a random trip or unfortunately placed lava on Norfair or whatever, suck it up, stop whining, it's still your fault you lost, etc. But all that stuff is small and situational and avoidable with foresight and skilled play. You don't avoid getting massively ruined by bad luck on WarioWare; it just happens sometimes, and there's nothing you can do about it. If your opponent gets 4 stars in a row on WarioWare and beats you, it is legitimately not really your fault that you lost. This stage is just not suited for serious play in any way.

 

[Linkshot]

Exactly what AA said, which is why I said 10 personal bans.

 

[dniMretsaM]

I finished my other post.

Just think about it. Let's say the only character I know how to play is Bowser. This is bad for a lot of reasons, but I deserve at least a fair shake at playing out the matchups, right? Well, the other guy picks someone who runs faster than Bowser and has a projectile (many choices with the easiest ones being Fox or Toon Link) and has their free run of stage choice. So I use my two personal bans on Temple and New Pork City, both of which are auto-wins for the other guy. It doesn't matter; he still picks Summit or Spear Pillar: Cresselia (and PkMn works, Cresselia just makes running the loop easiest). It's auto-win if the faster character's player is remotely competent.

Then you have stages like WarioWare and Mario Bros. On these stages, sure it's not super character biased so no one wants to ban it explicitly, but the match results are pretty random. So if you get to thinking your opponent is better than you, why not gamble and pick these stages? Stupid stuff happens, you get wins you really don't deserve. I mean, I am a long and tired advocate of "luck is a part of the game". If you lose to a random trip or unfortunately placed lava on Norfair or whatever, suck it up, stop whining, it's still your fault you lost, etc. But all that stuff is small and situational and avoidable with foresight and skilled play. You don't avoid getting massively ruined by bad luck on WarioWare; it just happens sometimes, and there's nothing you can do about it. If your opponent gets 4 stars in a row on WarioWare and beats you, it is legitimately not really your fault that you lost. This stage is just not suited for serious play in any way.

Your first case is kind of extreme; but I’ll go along with you. First, they would have to get the right Pokémon on SP, so they probably wouldn’t pick it. Summit has an inevitable stage that interrupts the “circuit”, forcing your opponent to face you; thus, allowing you to do damage or kill them (you’re probably not going to kill them, but I can be extreme to). Also, based on the fact that that the Fox/Toon Link or w/e was counter picking, you must have beat them. Chances are, you have more skill while fighting on a stage helps Bowser in that match up. Since you will be playing on one of those stages because you are counter picking (assuming you lost), you will probably win the next match and the set. We could ban/restrict “circuit stalling” if necessary. We restrict planking, so why not this too.

Lets talk about WarioWare Inc. The WW mini games are not based on luck (unless there is one I don’t know about). We’ll use the taunt one as an example. Luck does not decide who taunts at the right time; if you taunt early, that is your fault. “Well,” you might say, “what if one player gets hit and is in the air and can’t taunt?” Again, it comes down to the skill of the players. If one of them can time a hit right so that the opponent is in the air at the right time, he deserves to do better, does he not?

Now its time for Mario Bros. This is a stage is one that no one has a definite answer to. Not me. Not you. Not anybody. Until this stage is extensively tested for strategies, no one will know for sure. That being said, here is my opinion. The fact that MB has “random hazards” does not necessarily make it unfit for competition. Nor does the fact that these item like objects. Lots of characters have items, most of which are unlimited. Lets say you and I are playing a set at a tournament. You win the first match and I CP MB (assuming neither you nor I banned it and we didn't agree to ban it). I neither of us has any experience on this stage whatsoever; you will probably still win. Since you're better than me, so much so, that I am willing to risk my chance at winning the set on MB, you probably have better reflexes than me. This would give an advantage because you would be able to hit a turtle (or crab) that "appeared out of thin air" more than me. That means that you would take less "extra" damage than me and would get more "items" to throw. The scales are clearly tipped in your favor. Now, even if you lose, you are going to win the next match; because you are superior enough that I would chance it on MB, I (barring a freak chance) am not going to be able to beat you on a stage that gives your character an advantage or mine a disadvantage, which, of course, is what we will be playing on since you get to pick the next stage.

 

[sunshade]

Second point(FZ2, MB):Stages like this are not necessarily
unfit for competition. If someone took the time to create a stratagy for it and could consistantly win, would it not be fit for competition? FZ2 is actually not that bad.

Now, this rule is not meant to be set in stone; it is only meant tobe a general guideline. There could be exceptions in extreme cases (such as fox); also, to make it easier,

Many people have already created a strategy for the banned stages, its called running away or more accurately circle stall. On hannenbow, 75m, temple, summit, new pork city, and spear pillar this tactic is unbeatable assuming the player using a faster character is at least semi competent. On those six stages a faster character only needs to gain a percent lead and then they can proceed to run away until they are at an unpunishable distance then fire a projectile then continue to run away once again. The player behind in % is forced to approach because if they do not than the timer will run out and they will lose. However those six stages make it possible to run away forever and because of that the slower player cannot reasonably win.

Banned stages often times have a single tactic such as circle stall which is so powerful it forces players to pick up that single method of play or loss without exception. A player should not be forced to ban a stage that gives their opponent such a huge advantage when it is not reasonably* possible for them to over come it regardless of skill level.

*note: telling a player to simply never lose the %/stock lead is not reasonable

certain stages could be auto baned in finals.

We already have this set up only it applies to all sets and not just finals its know as the banned stage list.

 

[buenob]

I thought the whole "we are debating the level of 'intrusion' into gameplay" thing was gone and done, and we were actually talking about that these days, not re-explaining everything (not to say revisiting old topics with new information isn't good, it is... if there is new information)

here is a story of one of my more recent pictochat experiences...

I was playing against a kirby as rob (wow surprize! lol)... I was ahead by over a stock, and had completely demoralized my opponent, which is how to play the robot... at this point in the game, my opponent was basically jumping around doing random stuff (there was money on the line so you know, not just a friendly) because he "couldn't find a way around my game"

so I am getting tired of his just random jumping around, avoiding conflict, so I bait the RHS rock glitch (so that I can hit him easily when he cancels it)... he jumps up above me, rocks, and then BAM the whale forms... now, before I go into what happens because of it, let me just say that my opponent OBVIOUSLY knows the map, and knows the spawning timing of the hazards and chose to wait until something was about to appear, since there is the chance that it will put me in a bad spot... I also know the map spawning but given that there are really only two which would be hazardous to me, I decided to do it anyways, since I didn't want go through another transformation which would give him some kind of advantage... also keep in mind that yes, I could just out camp him, but playing against skilled players while they are ******* around is really _really_ tiring and I still had the rest of the bracket to play -- I made the decision to do it

ok so, I get caught by the wall that forms, get hit by the rock, take a rediculous amount of damage, miss my tech off the whale-tail, and die... I am still up technically, but his head is completely back in the game, (and being a good player), managed to make it a close fight... I ended up winning still, but the mental shift and the percentage/stock change was crazy...

does that really have a spot in competitive play? I am honestly on the fence.. on one hand, he randomly was put back in the game really for no reason other than the level let him... on the other hand, we were both playing percentages and the risk vs. reward, and knew what we were doing the whole time...

 

[vVv Rapture]

does that really have a spot in competitive play? I am honestly on the fence.. on one hand, he randomly was put back in the game really for no reason other than the level let him... on the other hand, we were both playing percentages and the risk vs. reward, and knew what we were doing the whole time...

Well, it really comes down to if that is the definition of competitive play. Is it just the level that put him back in the game or his ability to take advantage of a new situation? Or was it your inability to not control the situation when things got out of hand or is that in itself in some form competitive?

Maybe we should be looking less at if the stages are truly changing things or if it is the player's ability to take advantage of and control the stage based on what makes it different from most neutrals, ie, learning an alternative playstyle based on the hazards of one or more stages.

Sure, **** just does happen and it sucks when it does, though not for your opponent. Depending on how you look at it, stages like pictochat may even make games more competitive or do just the opposite.

 

[buenob]

yeah... well... as for my inability to control the situation when it got out of hand, I'm pretty sure "i'm getting hit by a rock" isn't a situation I can control (I was DI'ing up the whole time, if someone has a better idea, please share, or PM me if that is gonna get off topic lol).. and as for him controlling the situation, "I am a rock!" is a really, really in depth strategy which involves a lot of concentration lol... i'm pretty sure I was fairly explanatory about the lead-up to said outcome (ie. the parts we controlled)

i guess the way I kind of see it is lets say you're playing rock-paper-scisors, and your opponent is like "yo... I'm going to throw ROCK! it's no lie", and to erase any ambiguity if he is lying, he owes me 5X the total prize pot (so he's not going to lie)... however, there is a rule stating that 1/18 times, rock beats paper... SPECIFICALLY only rock beats paper, no other combination... now... are you going to throw paper, or rock?

can those rules be "competitive"... absolutely... can you mindgames your opponent into submission? absolutely... would I personally rather play it without the additional rule? absolutely... would I care if it was 1/100 that the special rule took effect? not really...

 

[vVv Rapture]

Comments in bold.

yeah... well... as for my inability to control the situation when it got out of hand, I'm pretty sure "i'm getting hit by a rock" isn't a situation I can control (I was DI'ing up the whole time, if someone has a better idea, please share, or PM me if that is gonna get off topic lol).. and as for him controlling the situation, "I am a rock!" is a really, really in depth strategy which involves a lot of concentration lol... i'm pretty sure I was fairly explanatory about the lead-up to said outcome (ie. the parts we controlled).

No no, I understand that, I was just playing devil's advocate, posing a question as to whether or not the situation is competitive (clearly, you do not think so, at least, not the end result).

i guess the way I kind of see it is lets say you're playing rock-paper-scisors, and your opponent is like "yo... I'm going to throw ROCK! it's no lie", and to erase any ambiguity if he is lying, he owes me 5X the total prize pot (so he's not going to lie)... however, there is a rule stating that 1/18 times, rock beats paper... SPECIFICALLY only rock beats paper, no other combination... now... are you going to throw paper, or rock?

I dunno if that's stretching it a bit too far. And, by the way, I'd still use paper since those are good odds for me. 17/18 times I win.

can those rules be "competitive"... absolutely... can you mindgames your opponent into submission? absolutely... would I personally rather play it without the additional rule? absolutely... would I care if it was 1/100 that the special rule took effect? not really...


Well, that's when it comes down to personal preference, but that holds no bearing on whether or not it is competitive. Just because you don't think it is doesn't mean it isn't. That's like saying that someone prefers to play with Smash Balls on. They can easily defend them as being competitive because it's their opinion, but in reality that's not how it works.

The difference here is that, from what I've read, there isn't a super-majority on either side...discussions like these are never concrete because it basically boils down to opinion and theres no neutral, unbiased third-party to judge either side.

 

[dniMretsaM]

Many people have already created a strategy for the banned stages, its called running away or more accurately circle stall. On hannenbow, 75m, temple, summit, new pork city, and spear pillar this tactic is unbeatable assuming the player using a faster character is at least semi competent. On those six stages a faster character only needs to gain a percent lead and then they can proceed to run away until they are at an unpunishable distance then fire a projectile then continue to run away once again. The player behind in % is forced to approach because if they do not than the timer will run out and they will lose. However those six stages make it possible to run away forever and because of that the slower player cannot reasonably win.

Banned stages often times have a single tactic such as circle stall which is so powerful it forces players to pick up that single method of play or loss without exception. A player should not be forced to ban a stage that gives their opponent such a huge advantage when it is not reasonably* possible for them to over come it regardless of skill level..

I was not talking about those stages. I was talking about Mario Bros. and Flat Zone 2 (FZ2 should be legal any way). Please read my previous post.

 

[dniMretsaM]

so I am getting tired of his just random jumping around, avoiding conflict, so I bait the RHS rock glitch (so that I can hit him easily when he cancels it)... he jumps up above me, rocks, and then BAM the whale forms... now, before I go into what happens because of it, let me just say that my opponent OBVIOUSLY knows the map, and knows the spawning timing of the hazards and chose to wait until something was about to appear, since there is the chance that it will put me in a bad spot... I also know the map spawning but given that there are really only two which would be hazardous to me, I decided to do it anyways, since I didn't want go through another transformation which would give him some kind of advantage... also keep in mind that yes, I could just out camp him, but playing against skilled players while they are ******* around is really _really_ tiring and I still had the rest of the bracket to play -- I made the decision to do it

To me, the Kirby should win. Why? Because he took the time to learn the stage and the spawning times of the hazards. He spent more time on his game plan and used that to his advantage.

(does this count as double posting since I'm discussing a different topic?)

 

[sunshade]

Your first case is kind of extreme; but I’ll go along with you. First, they would have to get the right Pokémon on SP, so they probably wouldn’t pick it. Summit has an inevitable stage that interrupts the “circuit”, forcing your opponent to face you; thus, allowing you to do damage or kill them (you’re probably not going to kill them, but I can be extreme to). Also, based on the fact that that the Fox/Toon Link or w/e was counter picking, you must have beat them. Chances are, you have more skill while fighting on a stage helps Bowser in that match up. Since you will be playing on one of those stages because you are counter picking (assuming you lost), you will probably win the next match and the set. We could ban/restrict “circuit stalling” if necessary. We restrict planking, so why not this too.

Circle stalling is unbeatable so long as the player with the lead is using a faster character and is even remotely competent. The reason circle stall is not banned however is due to the fact that it is impossible to objectively determine if a player is playing defensively and constantly moving to a safer position or running away and throwing out a few lasers with the greater goal of running the clock.

If I am Falco and you are [insert any slower than falco character here] and we are playing on those stages I mentioned and to a less extent bridge of eldn, my most optimal tactic is to stay at a distance and camp you with lasers untill you are at a very large percentage. Falco on any stage attempts to camp with lasers for as long as possible, its simply how he plays, but on many of the banned stages he can camp forever without any resonable chance of being defeated.

We cannot seperate falco's natural defensive play style from circle stall so we are forced to ban the stage instead.

Lets talk about WarioWare Inc. The WW mini games are not based on luck (unless there is one I don’t know about). We’ll use the taunt one as an example. Luck does not decide who taunts at the right time; if you taunt early, that is your fault. “Well,” you might say, “what if one player gets hit and is in the air and can’t taunt?” Again, it comes down to the skill of the players. If one of them can time a hit right so that the opponent is in the air at the right time, he deserves to do better, does he not?

AA was referring to the power up being given as the random element.

If the exact same power up was given regardless of mini game or each mini game had a set power up there would be no issue with the stage, but the power up is random and that causes problems.

When the mini games roll around I as a player must make a risk/reward decision based on the potential reward/cost of my actions. The reward however is not known and it can be beneficial or hindering based on completely random elements causing my input as a player to be meaningless which is counter competitive. If I choose to win the mini game and my opponent does as well he may get a star and I get a mega mushroom I am now a very large target and my extra kill power is now useless because of the random choice made by neither me nor my opponent.

Player choices and inputs are the key to victory in any and all competitive game/sport. By introducing a severely overbearing random element we are reducing the importance of player skill and reducing the competitiveness of the game.

Now its time for Mario Bros. This is a stage is one that no one has a definite answer to. Not me. Not you. Not anybody. Until this stage is extensively tested for strategies, no one will know for sure. That being said, here is my opinion. The fact that MB has “random hazards” does not necessarily make it unfit for competition. Nor does the fact that these item like objects. Lots of characters have items, most of which are unlimited. Lets say you and I are playing a set at a tournament. You win the first match and I CP MB (assuming neither you nor I banned it and we didn't agree to ban it). I neither of us has any experience on this stage whatsoever; you will probably still win. Since you're better than me, so much so, that I am willing to risk my chance at winning the set on MB, you probably have better reflexes than me. This would give an advantage because you would be able to hit a turtle (or crab) that "appeared out of thin air" more than me. That means that you would take less "extra" damage than me and would get more "items" to throw. The scales are clearly tipped in your favor. Now, even if you lose, you are going to win the next match; because you are superior enough that I would chance it on MB, I (barring a freak chance) am not going to be able to beat you on a stage that gives your character an advantage or mine a disadvantage, which, of course, is what we will be playing on since you get to pick the next stage.

Mario Bros has circle stall with the central platform.

I was not talking about those stages. I was talking about Mario Bros. and Flat Zone 2 (FZ2 should be legal any way). Please read my previous post.

I did read your posts, I also read this

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that every stage should be legal.

Sorry if I took you saying "every stage should be legal" to mean "every stage should be legal".

 

[P5_]

can someone give me the download link or direct me where i can download the battle field texture [fountain of dreams]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnMJBbIELlQ

 

[buenob]

lol dni, i know picto really well, and I chose the path where i would win 1/18 times, and it just so happened that i lost that bet... I really don't want to start a flame war but it's really hard for me not to attack your credibility from the fact that you absolutely seem to be a bad player, since you didn't even understand that I directed the situation from the start...

 

[sunshade]

lol dni, i know picto really well, and I chose the path where i would win 1/18 times, and it just so happened that i lost that bet... I really don't want to start a flame war but it's really hard for me not to attack your credibility from the fact that you absolutely seem to be a bad player, since you didn't even understand that I directed the situation from the start...

you mean 17/18 correct?

Also, well said.