Linkshot
Smash Hero
Watch the timer, don't let him pull you into an unsafe zone. It's the same method as the klaptrap.
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Official Stage Legality Discussion
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
- Start date
- Status
Xona
Smash Apprentice
If Randomness is really an absolute auto-ban-reason, then why is the randomly selected stage system used in most Melee tourneys and many Brawl tourneys? As a Bowser main, I can say that the Random-stage system gives a 1 in 5 chance of a completely unwinnable match-up against certain characters. Why? Because there would be a 1 in 5 chance of playing on final destination. In Melee it makes Falco almost have a guaranteed win, and in Brawl Dedede IS guaranteed to win. And completely unwinnable match-ups should never be on starter stages if those match-ups are winnable on other stages. final destination should certainly not be a starter stage, especially if bridge of eldin is banned.
I can't say that I am entirely opposed to bridge of eldin's banning, because it is even worse than fd. bridge of eldin is just a larger final destination with walk-offs. And I HATE final destination. But the main cited ban-reason doesn't seem to be quite enough in my oppinion. The main one is that the walk-off allows Dedede to chain-grab more than half the cast off the edge for a guaranteed kill. But that infinite still works on 2-6 characters, (Mario, Luigi, Samus, Bowser, DK, and Dedede). Also, why are people banning stages because of infinites? Infinites CAN be banned; they fit the enforceable and concrete criteria for a ban. The rule could easily be: "linking Dedede's Dthrow to a grab + dthrow is banned, if someone does it, he or she forfeits a stock". As for warranted, which is a more important part of the meta-game, a stage or an infinite combo. Somehow the stage is not worth saving but the infinite is? Very few people think that any fighting game is made better because of an infinite. Almost everyone agrees that infinites are bad game-design.
The divide on bridge of eldin is debateable, but it definitely makes approaching significantly more difficult. Also, bridge of eldin is basically a final destination clone anyway. I might accept bridge of eldin as a counterpick (I would also be fine with its banning) and I CAN accept final destination as a counterpick, but NEVER as a starter, even with Dedede's infinite banned. These stages are far too biased against slower characters to be starters, unless the regular CP's are also starters with the Stage-strike-system.
I can't say that I am entirely opposed to bridge of eldin's banning, because it is even worse than fd. bridge of eldin is just a larger final destination with walk-offs. And I HATE final destination. But the main cited ban-reason doesn't seem to be quite enough in my oppinion. The main one is that the walk-off allows Dedede to chain-grab more than half the cast off the edge for a guaranteed kill. But that infinite still works on 2-6 characters, (Mario, Luigi, Samus, Bowser, DK, and Dedede). Also, why are people banning stages because of infinites? Infinites CAN be banned; they fit the enforceable and concrete criteria for a ban. The rule could easily be: "linking Dedede's Dthrow to a grab + dthrow is banned, if someone does it, he or she forfeits a stock". As for warranted, which is a more important part of the meta-game, a stage or an infinite combo. Somehow the stage is not worth saving but the infinite is? Very few people think that any fighting game is made better because of an infinite. Almost everyone agrees that infinites are bad game-design.
The divide on bridge of eldin is debateable, but it definitely makes approaching significantly more difficult. Also, bridge of eldin is basically a final destination clone anyway. I might accept bridge of eldin as a counterpick (I would also be fine with its banning) and I CAN accept final destination as a counterpick, but NEVER as a starter, even with Dedede's infinite banned. These stages are far too biased against slower characters to be starters, unless the regular CP's are also starters with the Stage-strike-system.
infomon
Smash Scientist
Any TO that uses a random starter stage is being dumb. It's been a while since I've seen one of those. Stage-striking solves the problem and is widely accepted.
The chaingrab question is nontrivial. I'd prefer to ban stages than place arbitrary limits on how I can use my character; but that's a matter of personal choice. I'm not convinced that D3's CGs have been proven broken to the point that they need restricting anyway. And yeah, I'm not convinced BoE should be banned either lol but I don't know much of the stage so I can't really comment. Though I wish there were vids of high-level matches being carried out on the stage that would prove it's broken; however, high-level play has never happened on the stage afaik.
The chaingrab question is nontrivial. I'd prefer to ban stages than place arbitrary limits on how I can use my character; but that's a matter of personal choice. I'm not convinced that D3's CGs have been proven broken to the point that they need restricting anyway. And yeah, I'm not convinced BoE should be banned either lol but I don't know much of the stage so I can't really comment. Though I wish there were vids of high-level matches being carried out on the stage that would prove it's broken; however, high-level play has never happened on the stage afaik.
Gaudeo
Smash Cadet
My understanding is that Bridge of Eldin isn't banned because of the walkoffs, but rather because it's enormous size and exceptionally high ceiling make it too possible for a legit match go to time. I seem to remember someone quoting the rationale from the SBR that explained that even without intentional stalling their matches on that stage kept going to time.
infomon
Smash Scientist
Then we could just extend the timer.
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but prolly the matches would just be a dumb campfest anyway
lol now I really want to see some high-level matches played here to see how it would degenerate
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maybe it wouldn't :o
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but prolly the matches would just be a dumb campfest anyway
lol now I really want to see some high-level matches played here to see how it would degenerate
....
maybe it wouldn't :o
xLeafybug =D
Smash Master
I honestly think that Rumble Falls needs some serious reconsideration. It's an amazing stage, and definitely counter material, considering the fact that the only random in that stage is the slight speed boost. All the traps are easily avoided. Clearly whoever decided this didn't have their thinking hats on properly when they decided that Pictochat, a stage that has numerous randoms should be a counter, and Rumble Falls should be banned.
EDIT: Anyone who argues that "You should be fighting the player, not the stage also needs to consider why Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, and Pirate Ship are Legal counters according to the SBR, even though they have numerous aspects that are more dangerous then Rumble Falls. The whole purpose of a counter is to give a character a stage advantage over other characters, and Rumble Falls does that exceptionally well.
EDIT: Anyone who argues that "You should be fighting the player, not the stage also needs to consider why Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, and Pirate Ship are Legal counters according to the SBR, even though they have numerous aspects that are more dangerous then Rumble Falls. The whole purpose of a counter is to give a character a stage advantage over other characters, and Rumble Falls does that exceptionally well.
'V'
Smash Lord
The SBR is weird like that.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
On the old stage discussion thread, I have many detailed posts on it.
Go to my profile and search my posts for "Rumble Falls" :3
Go to my profile and search my posts for "Rumble Falls" :3
Kinzer
Mammy
I want to bring up a case.
What makes it so that Yoshi's Isle: Melee is universally banned at any tournament that follows the false SBR rulings strictly. Is it the walk-off on the left side? The blastzones are awkwardly close (I don't think that would be the problem)?
I've been hearing a lot of talk about how this stage is suppose to be the only one out there where if Meta Knight is CPed here he is at the DISADVANTAGE. It makes sense to me, seeing as how MK can't use his broken recovery since there's so much stage here, it's very easy to live considering the stage covers the blastzones on the bottom and right side so if you're hit you might be able to tech or redirect the knockback into the ground (yay physics), and any character who can kill vertically can do some damage.
*Awaits a response.*
What makes it so that Yoshi's Isle: Melee is universally banned at any tournament that follows the false SBR rulings strictly. Is it the walk-off on the left side? The blastzones are awkwardly close (I don't think that would be the problem)?
I've been hearing a lot of talk about how this stage is suppose to be the only one out there where if Meta Knight is CPed here he is at the DISADVANTAGE. It makes sense to me, seeing as how MK can't use his broken recovery since there's so much stage here, it's very easy to live considering the stage covers the blastzones on the bottom and right side so if you're hit you might be able to tech or redirect the knockback into the ground (yay physics), and any character who can kill vertically can do some damage.
*Awaits a response.*
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
MK is terrible on, and has many disadvantageous match-ups, on Green Greens as well.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
You're...kidding right? MK ***** Green Greens. He just camps under the stage.
Pipes is banned due to the upwards walkoff. If it were downwards, I'd see this as a CP...
Pipes is banned due to the upwards walkoff. If it were downwards, I'd see this as a CP...
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
"Camps under the stage"? I've never heard of that - would you mind elaborating?
Otherwise, MK loses his potent specials and his recovery advantage, and suffers severely due to his weight and lack of projectile. Green Greens > MK.
Otherwise, MK loses his potent specials and his recovery advantage, and suffers severely due to his weight and lack of projectile. Green Greens > MK.
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
^Pretty much that.
Green Greens should be more widely accepted as a counterpick solely for how good it is against Meta Knight.
As for Pipes, I honestly don't know. I don't care too much for the stage and there are probably reasons as to why it's hardly considered to be playable; I would imagine it's just the walk-off on the right that ruins it.
Green Greens should be more widely accepted as a counterpick solely for how good it is against Meta Knight.
As for Pipes, I honestly don't know. I don't care too much for the stage and there are probably reasons as to why it's hardly considered to be playable; I would imagine it's just the walk-off on the right that ruins it.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
I can imagine the short pit in the middle also posing a problem as far as planking/camping/punishing mistakes too hard goes.
I can see Green Greens being a more likely anti-MK counterpick, but eh...
I honestly don't understand why Distant Planet is banned in most places while Luigi's Mansion isn't.
I can see Green Greens being a more likely anti-MK counterpick, but eh...
I honestly don't understand why Distant Planet is banned in most places while Luigi's Mansion isn't.
Yoshi's Island (Melee) is a counter/banned stage so it could be legal under SBR rules. It's generally a pretty strongly character biased stage, but I don't really think it's fundamentally unfair.
It's OK, Avarice. Someday I'll go there and CP that stage with DK every single set and make them see how very silly they are.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
CP what stage? There were 3 mentioned stages. o.o
If Distant Planet, that stage is stupid and promotes a fun 7 minute match of camping vs DK.
(found that out on an AiB ladder when a DK CP'd my Snake there) If Weegee's Mansion, I can see SOME issues with the stage, but I can see it as a Counter/Banned.
If Green Greens, I'm on the fence from CP or CP/Banned.
7 minutes of camping isn't a problem since that means the match ended a full minute before the timer ran out. Really though, I don't understand 7 minute timers; no matter what stages we're talking about, it just plain isn't enough time for matches between two defensive players (and defensive players are pretty common in brawl!).
Anyway, there's no way DK can run forever on Distant Planet. I know that stage well enough to be very sure that just can't happen against an aggressive opponent (DK isn't even that fast; how could he possibly?). You must have just been trying to play defensively with Snake the same way that Falco player at Genesis was playing against Dojo. If you don't chase them down, it's really not anyone's fault if you run out of time...
Anyway, there's no way DK can run forever on Distant Planet. I know that stage well enough to be very sure that just can't happen against an aggressive opponent (DK isn't even that fast; how could he possibly?). You must have just been trying to play defensively with Snake the same way that Falco player at Genesis was playing against Dojo. If you don't chase them down, it's really not anyone's fault if you run out of time...
Kinzer
Mammy
Even though Vegas runs with a 7 minute timer, rarely do minutes go to time, and I've only seen one... maybe two matches go to time out of the whole time I've been playing Brawl. I know everybody hates how Brawl matches always take 4-5 minutes but that's more of a personal preference thing and I can't see how even with less than 1 minute on the standard timer how it can end short unless the players are trying to stall or don't want to approach (I can see this happening a lot of Pkmn Stad I).
Anyway it's a shame, even if YI:M is counter/banned, I don't know of any weekly/tourney ruleset that has/d it as a legal counterpick... it's always (been) banned... and I would bet money it's the walk-off.
Is there no way to work around the CG-carry to the blastzone? or is it like how some people say that overcentralization of said strategy is enough to have the stage banned all-together?
Anyway it's a shame, even if YI:M is counter/banned, I don't know of any weekly/tourney ruleset that has/d it as a legal counterpick... it's always (been) banned... and I would bet money it's the walk-off.
Is there no way to work around the CG-carry to the blastzone? or is it like how some people say that overcentralization of said strategy is enough to have the stage banned all-together?
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
There are plenty of ways to work around it, but nobody wants to have to. See also: Metaknight
GwJ
Smash Hero
You make it sound like destroying the stage is difficult.
Yes, concentrate on destroying the stage while an opponent is trying to hit you. Sounds like a winning strategy.
Also, it doesn't stay gone.
Except DK can only get that momentum cancel from specific positions so if he contests you destroying the mansion you can just kill him. It's the same way with Mr. Game & Watch; it's actually pretty ridiculously hard to exploit that to live forever.
Of course living forever isn't practically doable, but all you have to do is have significantly higher survivability than the other character and you gain a huge advantage there.
There's also the fact that MK and Olimar gain stupid advantages there as well. It's a dumb, campy stage.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Or anyone... it's called teching.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Floorboard of life? :V
I think Pipes should be legal. After somebody started *****ing about MK breaking the CP system, I looked at Pipes. He has no inherent advantage there; no way to camp under the stage, no way to uniquely gimp at ridiculous percents.
The chaingrabbing becomes a problem, and I'm starting to think that what should be done is what other areas are doing: Ban using that character on the stage.
I think Pipes should be legal. After somebody started *****ing about MK breaking the CP system, I looked at Pipes. He has no inherent advantage there; no way to camp under the stage, no way to uniquely gimp at ridiculous percents.
The chaingrabbing becomes a problem, and I'm starting to think that what should be done is what other areas are doing: Ban using that character on the stage.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
And Zelda... I love using that stage as my zelda counterpick.
zeldspazz
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2008
- Messages
- 3,432
Too bad most people ban it =\
Linkshot
Smash Hero
**** D3, getting a lot of good anti-MK stages banned :/
DK doesn't have to tech, he only has to hold up and press B really quickly.
That's not the same as teching, which requires timing.
But yes, there is that.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244416
Since its clear that MK wont be banned, forget what I said about green greens. Ban it
Since its clear that MK wont be banned, forget what I said about green greens. Ban it
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
It should still be legal regardless.
GwJ
Smash Hero
Why ban it Kamikaze? There are other stages that are better suited for MK, so why not help other characters outside MK? Legalize it.
i said it before in the last thread, GreenGreens makes it too easy to stall aggressively under the stage... the hazards are plentiful and strong, and it's a very small level (blast zones) not to mention forcing aerial approaches from above... I can understand it being in the counter/banned, but this level, more than port down, do I feel like I am playing against the level, rather than my opponent...
Linkshot
Smash Hero
buenob, you weren't at the Smashfest on Friday, but I found out that the AI is ******** when trying to traverse Green Greens, and it and I somehow set off the Bomb Glitch at a very low altitude (you could shorthop into it o.O)
I have the replay, so I can show you on Wednesday.
Green Greens for Counter/Banned(/lols)
I still support Pipes for Counterpick. Once you learn how to out-control D3/Yoshi, it's a great stage. Or, if you want to take the scrub way out, ban D3/Yoshi on that stage.
I have the replay, so I can show you on Wednesday.
Green Greens for Counter/Banned(/lols)
I still support Pipes for Counterpick. Once you learn how to out-control D3/Yoshi, it's a great stage. Or, if you want to take the scrub way out, ban D3/Yoshi on that stage.
King Dedede can only chaingrab a very small number of characters up the slope on Yoshi's Island (Melee). Specifically he can chaingrab...
Donkey Kong, Wario, Link, Ganondorf, Wolf, Lucario
Donkey Kong is auto stock gone to King Dedede after a grab on every stage so he doesn't matter. Ganondorf is so bad that he really doesn't matter either (he won't beat King Dedede on normal stages either). Wolf has a horrible matchup against King Dedede on most stages too; I'm really doubtful this stage makes it worse for him (he can play for the left side and such and enjoy the early kills this stage provides). That leaves us with Wario, Link, and Lucario. That's really not that big of a deal; if you main one of those three characters and your opponent mains King Dedede you may want to use your stage ban on this stage, though you can always just stay on the left side of the stage and approach from the left as often as possible when you must venture to the right side of the stage and not have to worry about it. That's not even very limiting to do...
Yoshi chaingrabs no one up the slope on Yoshi's Island (Melee). He can still infinite Wario there... like he can on flat ground. Yoshi is a 100% non-issue on this stage.
I'm really curious if anyone who objects to Distant Planet or Yoshi's Island (Melee) on the basis of chaingrab abuse off walk-offs has actually experienced it. Those stages aren't really bad about that sort of thing; the slopes mess chaingrabs up a lot.
Yes, the AI is horrible on Green Greens. It's hilarious. Level 9 Snake that always counterpicks Green Greens remains one of the funniest things I've ever seen at a smash tournament.
Donkey Kong, Wario, Link, Ganondorf, Wolf, Lucario
Donkey Kong is auto stock gone to King Dedede after a grab on every stage so he doesn't matter. Ganondorf is so bad that he really doesn't matter either (he won't beat King Dedede on normal stages either). Wolf has a horrible matchup against King Dedede on most stages too; I'm really doubtful this stage makes it worse for him (he can play for the left side and such and enjoy the early kills this stage provides). That leaves us with Wario, Link, and Lucario. That's really not that big of a deal; if you main one of those three characters and your opponent mains King Dedede you may want to use your stage ban on this stage, though you can always just stay on the left side of the stage and approach from the left as often as possible when you must venture to the right side of the stage and not have to worry about it. That's not even very limiting to do...
Yoshi chaingrabs no one up the slope on Yoshi's Island (Melee). He can still infinite Wario there... like he can on flat ground. Yoshi is a 100% non-issue on this stage.
I'm really curious if anyone who objects to Distant Planet or Yoshi's Island (Melee) on the basis of chaingrab abuse off walk-offs has actually experienced it. Those stages aren't really bad about that sort of thing; the slopes mess chaingrabs up a lot.
Yes, the AI is horrible on Green Greens. It's hilarious. Level 9 Snake that always counterpicks Green Greens remains one of the funniest things I've ever seen at a smash tournament.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Can you elaborate on this? Again, I've never heard of this.
And AA, is it really only those six characters Dedede can chaingrab on slopes? I've been CG'd on Distant Planet as Peach - it was on wifi though.
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