Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Linkshot]

Charizard was getting funky with the wall of blocks XD

I 100% support Yoshi's Island (Melee). I am in the boat that Ness has an advantage on MK when on that stage, and a stage that supports Ness is a must have for me XD

I 75% support Distant Planet because of the unique platform-play it provides. the 25% ban goes to MK for uAir stalling below the stage.

 

['V']

Some of these stages REALLY need to be reconsidered. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[bobson]

And AA, is it really only those six characters Dedede can chaingrab on slopes? I've been CG'd on Distant Planet as Peach - it was on wifi though.

He was referring to Yoshi's Island's slope specifically; Distant Planet's is less steep, so there's more legroom for chaingrabbing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

DK doesn't have to tech, he only has to hold up and press B really quickly.

That's not the same as teching, which requires timing.

But yes, there is that.

That still kills him since he loses all his aerial mobility afterwards.
What he can now do is side B which is also a break and then recover. <_<

 

[fkacyan]

That still kills him since he loses all his aerial mobility afterwards.
What he can now do is side B which is also a break and then recover. <_<

Meh, I've never had issues living with upB, his DI afterwards is insane, but either way it requires no techskill.

 

[Violent-nin]

I support Yoshi's Island (Melee) for a CP.

Really Brawl needs more stage diversity.

 

[buenob]

^lol really? why is that?

edit: about green greens
1) there are too many ledges close together : obvious - easy planking, not obvious - the ability to "attack" from under the level leads to rediculous camping... MK is already 'air planking', imagine him doing that under the level, with any of 6 ledges to grab? I play rob, he can do it too... so can, well, most entire cast
2) forced air approach : while not entirely game-braking, this leads to camping... even though norfair has this same type of forced situation, you can't approach from below on GG, so you are _forced_ into a worse position (less options) than your opponent if you are approaching
3) the bombs/apples : people say this isn't a biggie, but this isn't just about the glitch... again, if you're approaching an opponent, you now lose a tonne of options just from dealing with the spawning of hazards between the two of you...
4) small side-platforms : this isn't a huge deal, but it really adds another huge adv/disadv to a large portion of characters... char's with horizontal or vertical based recovery (ike, dk, falco, fox, etc.. not both like rob, mk, d3, pit, pika etc..) are basically forced to grab the outside edge when recovering from a decent distance, and with the small platforms / hazards behind a properly positioned defender, the stage control is too epic to get around... characters that can bypass the outside edge will have a VERY large advantage compared to those who can't

if all of these points were kind of spread out, i really wouldn't mind, but they all lead to one thing... excessively defensive play... I can see top-tier matches going to time on this level (close matches) more than any other 'legal' level, despite the small stage size...

fun level to play for the lolz for sure, not so much when there's a couple-hundred bucks on the line...

 

[kingcobra9]

what about chain grabs on the right side of the stage

Edit: i ventured back a page to find a very descriptive post by amazing ampharos and i don't think the chain grab would be a problem it is something for like those four characters could simply ban that stage with there ban

 

[Violent-nin]

^lol really? why is that?

Lol, because I'm bored/sick of the current stages. =P

 

[buenob]

10uselessPosts

lol, excuse my troll of a response, but your troll of a post deserves it...

 

[Violent-nin]

10uselessPosts

lol, excuse my troll of a response, but your troll of a post deserves it...

Well the typical excuse people use for Pipes is either planking or DDD CG -> Kill. Planking I'm not convinced is a problem on that stage, as for DDD's CG as someone pointed our earlier it only affects a very few select characters or if worse comes to worse you can use one of the different options someone posted earlier.

Some people say I shouldn't have to fight the stage, just my opponent. Really? This is Smash, the stage is always a factor that's what makes Smash different from other fighters/party games. If I want a true fighter I play my Street Fighter or my KOF, but if I want something different and unique I play Smash.

That's just my take on it. =0

 

[Linkshot]

Violent-nin, I'm sure you'll get sick of Green Green faster once you fight DK/D3/MK there.

I agree with you on Pipes, though. Very many characters will benefit from it, especially against MK.

 

[Violent-nin]

Oh I didn't mention anything about Green Greens Link, I haven't fully experimented on that stage to figure out if I'm truly against it or not.

 

[Linkshot]

It's pretty buggy and high on wall infinites.

Spoiler

Although none of this discussion even matters now that bBrawl exists.

 

[buenob]

lol LS you're such a bBrawl fanatic

pipes honestly is a completely fine level except for one thing... it's _inexcuseably_ small... the # of mistakes per life there just doesn't fit in with the rest of the game...

 

[infomon]

1) there are too many ledges close together : obvious - easy planking, not obvious - the ability to "attack" from under the level leads to rediculous camping... MK is already 'air planking', imagine him doing that under the level, with any of 6 ledges to grab? I play rob, he can do it too... so can, well, most entire cast

If most of the cast can do it then I don't see at all how it's a problem.

2) forced air approach : while not entirely game-braking, this leads to camping... even though norfair has this same type of forced situation, you can't approach from below on GG, so you are _forced_ into a worse position (less options) than your opponent if you are approaching

And there's nothing wrong with camping, so I don't see the problem.

3) the bombs/apples : people say this isn't a biggie, but this isn't just about the glitch... again, if you're approaching an opponent, you now lose a tonne of options just from dealing with the spawning of hazards between the two of you...

Or you use them to your advantage. Has any real high-level playtesting on this stage actually shown that it's broken?

4) small side-platforms : this isn't a huge deal, but it really adds another huge adv/disadv to a large portion of characters... char's with horizontal or vertical based recovery (ike, dk, falco, fox, etc.. not both like rob, mk, d3, pit, pika etc..) are basically forced to grab the outside edge when recovering from a decent distance, and with the small platforms / hazards behind a properly positioned defender, the stage control is too epic to get around... characters that can bypass the outside edge will have a VERY large advantage compared to those who can't

if all of these points were kind of spread out, i really wouldn't mind, but they all lead to one thing... excessively defensive play... I can see top-tier matches going to time on this level (close matches) more than any other 'legal' level, despite the small stage size...

fun level to play for the lolz for sure, not so much when there's a couple-hundred bucks on the line...

With a couple hundred bucks on the line, maybe we'd see how this stage actually plays out at high-level, rather than just guessing. It might be way more diverse/epic than you think.

FD, on paper, can look just as dumb for many matchups, but we know how it plays out and it's okay; some matchups suck, but we deal with it. Same logic applies just as easily for GG until proven otherwise.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Meta Knight is actually pretty awful on Green Greens. I counterpick him there all day as Mr. Game & Watch whenever I get the chance. I just thought I'd throw that in.

 

[fkacyan]

Meta Knight is actually pretty awful on Green Greens. I counterpick him there all day as Mr. Game & Watch whenever I get the chance. I just thought I'd throw that in.

AA, you should know this is anecdotal evidence at best. =/

If this counted for anything I woulda gotten Norfair permabanned months ago.

 

[buenob]

Or you use them to your advantage. Has any real high-level playtesting on this stage actually shown that it's broken?

i used to think this way, but I really have changed my opinion on it... the reason no "high level play" is done on the level is because everyone at a certain level just looks at it, sees broken strategies, and would really rather not play there...

again, a _long_ time ago, before a 'ledge grab' rule was ever even thought up, a US tournament had the finals on GG's, and 2x metaknights were playing, and it was the stupidest match I have ever seen... I can no longer find it, i posted this last time I tried to convince people that it was broken lol...

also, i am personally of the opinion of if the level inherently forces defensive play, then you are playing "around" the level, not with it, and therefore too intrusive to include in competitive play... it's the same reason I don't think onnettnshould be legal, and the same reason I think PS1 should not be a starter (due to the varying degrees of 'defensive' advantage)

FD, on paper, can look just as dumb for many matchups, but we know how it plays out and it's okay; some matchups suck, but we deal with it.

my point is that it promotes defensive play to the extreme... there's no denying that FD is probably the most defensively oriented 'neutral' but because the various factors add up and don't end up promoting _excessive_ defensive play, it is definitely a viable level...

Meta Knight is actually pretty awful on Green Greens. I counterpick him there all day as Mr. Game & Watch whenever I get the chance. I just thought I'd throw that in.

10thio beat me to the punch -- ally takes everyone to FD, but that's not necessarily in snakes favour for every matchup

 

[infomon]

i used to think this way, but I really have changed my opinion on it... the reason no "high level play" is done on the level is because everyone at a certain level just looks at it, sees broken strategies, and would really rather not play there...

No. The reason no "high level play" is done on this level is because high-level players know the stage will never be legal, so they don't bother playing it, so they don't know its properties, so they don't want to play it because it would be used to exploit their lack of stage knowledge. Which says nothing about the level being bad at all; just that it looked like it at first glance. It just so happens that Brawlers were ban-happy right from the start, so most ppl have very little experience with the nonobviously-reasonable stages like Pictochat and GG.

"seeing" a broken strategy is not the same as actually having it pan out in tournament play long enough for people to adjust and find ways around it. Since Brawl is so young, many of our pro's still don't understand many of the game mechanics; I've demonstrated this time and time again. Then again, many of our pro's still think MK should be banned, and that ledge-stalling is unbeatable

again, a _long_ time ago, before a 'ledge grab' rule was ever even thought up, a US tournament had the finals on GG's, and 2x metaknights were playing, and it was the stupidest match I have ever seen... I can no longer find it, i posted this last time I tried to convince people that it was broken lol...

A long time ago, people watched tournament matches where MK just spammed tornado over and over again, and the opponent was helpless. Some people gave up on Brawl, while the rest of us learned how to play.

I'm not saying GG is necessarily a viable stage, just that there's zero evidence it isn't.
And I'll never complain about balance in this game, while we've artifically messed with it by banning things we don't understand.

also, i am personally of the opinion of if the level inherently forces defensive play, then you are playing "around" the level, not with it, and therefore too intrusive to include in competitive play...

Why the bias against defensiveness? There's a difference between playing defensive and avoiding combat. Many characters are inherently defensive.... why should we limit ourselves to "offensive-Brawl", artificially cutting away a natural component of the game?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I was actually just asserting that Meta Knight sucks on Green Greens and saying what it implies. I think it's just plain obvious that it's a bad stage for him so I figured people wouldn't require an explanation, but I will spell it out.

Meta Knight has bad aerial mobility and no projectiles. This means if the opponents hide on the other side of the blocks he either has to get close to them and start directly attacking the blocks (leaves him pretty open) or jump over the blocks which is slow because Meta Knight moves slowly in the air. The ceiling is really low as well, and most characters are better at scoring vertical kills than Meta Knight. Meanwhile, Meta Knight's down smash is inhibited by the walls of blocks; it's pretty easy to position correctly so you can tech it. In general the low blast zones also make gimping a really unimportant factor on this stage so Meta Knight's amazing gimp games means almost nothing on this stage. The way the stage so easily facilitates vertical play also really nerfs the utility of Shuttle Loop.

Yeah, Meta Knight is bad on Green Greens, and it's not just a little bad. The stage is awful for him, easily his worst plausibly legal stage. I can say with what I feel is an expert opinion on this subject that Mr. Game & Watch vs Meta Knight is at least 55-45 G&W favor on this stage and very possibly leaning closer to 60-40. It's hard to imagine many matchups on which this stage doesn't improve the opposing character against Meta Knight (Captain Falcon? Sonic?).

Final Destination is way campier and chaingrab heavy than Pokemon Stadium 1 (this is very obvious I feel, but I can spell it out if people disagree), and it's definitely way more matchup biased. I don't see how anyone could justify Pokemon Stadium 1 as not "worthy" of starter status if Final Destination is. Also, 7 stage striking is demonstratively way more fair than 5, which I have demonstrated several times with matchup examples where 7 produces a more fair outcome than 5 (G&W vs MK, G&W vs ICs, actually almost anyone vs ICs) so I'm not sure where to go with that unless someone can provide some substantial counter-examples of matchups that produce less fair outcomes on 5 stage striking. Almost every model of 7 stages requires PS1 so I think its status as a starter is just natural.

 

[infomon]

Sonics love GG actually lol.

but a lot of ppl think MK can stall/ledgecamp way too well on this stage
so it might not be sooo bad for him.
but idk. no evidence for anything makes me a psyduck.

 

[fkacyan]

Small stages don't make a gimp game worse; conversely, they allow people who wouldn't otherwise gimp you to do so.

Also, dtilt into walls is really cool.

 

[Linkshot]

The point is if you camp first, MK can't camp you.

GG would make the Ness:MK matchup 65:35 for sure XDD

 

[9Kplus1]

Learn to DI, and GG isn't broken.

 

[fkacyan]

The point is if you camp first, MK can't camp you.

GG would make the Ness:MK matchup 65:35 for sure XDD

That makes it different than other stages... How?

I would love to see an adequate explanation for stage hazards that can kill that characters can essentially combo into... For example, MK dtitlting you to the wall and then blowing up a bomb block on both of you to kill you could be kinda stupid, etc.

 

[Big O]

MK and Marth move forward during their Dtilt locks. Eventually they would get close enough to destroy the block. Theres always staying away from the blocks or simply destroying them ahead of time.

The only problem I have is that jumping into a bomb block that just spawned is really stupid. My luck is pretty bad when it comes to things like that. It doesn't happen often enough to ban it though.

GG has grown on me. I used to hate it but after playing on it some more it doesn't seem any more broken than other legal CP stages.

 

[fkacyan]

it doesn't seem any more broken than other legal CP stages.

Which ones have stage hazards you think are comparable?

Keep in mind my (NJ's, really) stagelist doesn't have Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Norfair on it either. We're pretty conservative with this kinda thing.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Dtilt into walls is great if you have a dtilt that doesn't move your forward. Meta Knight's moves him forward a lot, and he'll just break the walls (even on stages with solid walls though, dtilt locks are really hard to actually land against an opponent with a brain). He can't dtilt lock at all on Green Greens. To suggest he can suggests that you really just don't know this stage at all.

Also, Green Greens isn't a "small stage" persay. It's actually fairly sizable, but the blast zones are close. This obviously greatly reduces the gimp game since hits that "would" send you off-stage on, say, Battlefield just kill you outright. You spend almost no time actually off-stage on Green Greens because the gap between the side blast-zone and the edge of the stage is not very big; there isn't actually much off-stage to be in in the first place. Saying it somehow helps gimping in any way is bizarre and non-intuitive. I can speak from experience that it plays out to not be very gimp heavy; Meta Knight relies on sending you deep off-stage at which point he can cut you off with his wall of dair. In this case, that deep off-stage area... simply does not exist. Before you start thinking "well killing outright is even better than gimping!" remember that Meta Knight has an exceptional recovery, and most of his likely opponents do not gimp as well as he does. Therefore, you're removing a zone that Meta Knight can send you to and kill you but if you send Meta Knight to he survives. This removal obviously works against Meta Knight's favor; now you both die if you go there (because it's past the blast zone).

 

['V']

I don't know... I think MK's just need to study the stage for a while before they really start to get used to it. It might help a little bit early on, but I certainly don't think it's that much of a game-changer for them.

 

[fkacyan]

To suggest he can suggests that you really just don't know this stage at all.

If there is a full wall of blocks when he starts he can get 3-5 in, which is still more than he can normally. If a bomb hits you during this, hurrah!

You really overestimate how much this stage hurts MK. Great ROB CP, though.

 

['V']

You really overestimate how much this stage hurts MK.

My thoughts exactly. He can use the stage to his advantage just as well as any other character can, if not better.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm not saying he's a bad character on Green Greens, but it's a definitively bad stage for him. In almost any matchup, he does worse on Green Greens than he does on an arbitrary other stage. In many matchups that generally lean slightly in his favor, this stage causes the matchup to lean slightly in his opponent's favor (in G&W's case, it's stronger than average because G&W is independently strong here on top of MK being weak here). I think it's definitely the case that if Green Greens is legal a Meta Knight player almost always wants to use his personal stage ban on it.

Also, dtilt locks almost never happen on any stage because people don't stand next to the walls and let you get the perfect spacing you need for a dtilt lock (seriously, the spacing requirements on these things are tight, and your opponent knows not to be in that spacing as much as you know to strive for it), and on Green Greens a Meta Knight "dtilt lock" is going to end at 3 hits tops. It's beyond petty, and the bomb scenario is even more obscure since you position on the stage with knowledge of where the bombs are. If there are nearby bombs, why would you stand with your back to the blocks? It's just not smart in any matchup. You want to force opponents into the bombs (which is going to require Meta Knight to do a lot more than walk up and dtilt if his opponent doesn't suck) and avoid them yourself so you obviously refrain from standing by them unless somehow this is a big risk you are choosing to take for some strategy to get your opponent into the blocks... which is a risk you choose to take and are appropriately punished for if you mess it up. I play this stage basically whenever I can because it rocks for Mr. Game & Watch, and I can say that the stuff you're describing simply does not happen.

 

[xxmaliciousxx]

I question why Pictochat is even legal...

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Why shouldn't it be?

The hazards are all pretty darn easy to avoid.

 

[Linkshot]

There's nothing at all wrong with PictoChat.

Study the stage before criticising it.

 

[buenob]

lol to be honest, I just plain disagree with pretty much everything that has been said since my last post, and I know that those who posted it believe what they say to be true so i'm not going to actually attempt to argue my opinion anymore except two points (because they're just differences of opinion)

infzy - to assume that high level players don't "know" the level, is a little naive... im' sure they still play for fun, just like everyone else... maybe i'm the one being naive, I don't consider myself a 'top' player yet...

AA - metaknights "slow" air mobility can be completely countered by his side/up-b priorities (not to mention insta-nair-stagespikes)... and inherently my argument was about it leading to extreme defensive play, so GnW's up-b in my opinion also breaks the level... it's incredibly easy for many characters to abuse a lead and camp underneath the level safely, making it almost impossible to come back from a % loss -> the match deteriorates to the person in the lead camping under the level -> single best strategy -> not legal

anyways, that is my opinion, I have stated facts which I believe support my claims, and i weigh them in a way which makes me come to these conclusions, im sorry if it's not the same as everyone else's

 

[xxmaliciousxx]

Yes, many of the hazards that occur on the stage Pictochat are fair and legitimate, but it should be illegal because of the few hazards it has which are not legitimate. Just like items, some of the hazards are random luck as are a big advantage for some characters and a big disadvantage to others. Also, many of the drawings on Pictochat are solid and tend to clutter the stage.

 

[Linkshot]

Except they're 100% predictable and 100% avoidable.

That's like banning Halberd because all the hazards can kill you but they never will.

 

[buenob]

lol LS, they're absolutely not 100% avoidable

the non-hazards are just as annoying as the actual hazards

that being said, I am personally of the opinion that it shouldn't be banned, mostly because I find that it is incredibly difficult to actually _plan_ on using the hazards, since they are relatively random (please note i used the qualifier relatively lol), and in the end, they very rarely are the deciding factor of the round... more often than not, the level just stalls for a bit, like ps1