Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Man of Popsicle]

Using gameplay altering codes as a tournament standard is ridiculous, don't even go there.

 

[Kinzer]

EDIT: That shouldn't even be an issue. Nobody can recover in 64, lawl.

My point was not the fact that Ness couldn't recover, IMO if it's so bad that you can't deal with it you should CP.

The point is that why is it that we don't have specific rules for this kind of things?

Wouldn't things like Bridge of Eldin or stages with permanent walls be legal (or at least, not warrant a ban as much) if we got rid of D3s wall-infinite?

A little bit of scrubbery there, since that can be countered by playing Pit and mastering Arrow Looping for example, but it's just an idea, and I'm sure more/better ideas can be tossed out there.

 

[professor mgw]

◎◇ Yoshi Island brawl should be banned. ◇◎

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

My point was not the fact that Ness couldn't recover, IMO if it's so bad that you can't deal with it you should CP.

The point is that why is it that we don't have specific rules for this kind of things?

Wouldn't things like Bridge of Eldin or stages with permanent walls be legal (or at least, not warrant a ban as much) if we got rid of D3s wall-infinite?

A little bit of scrubbery there, since that can be countered by playing Pit and mastering Arrow Looping for example, but it's just an idea, and I'm sure more/better ideas can be tossed out there.

What pit does is a bigger reason that those stages are banned. Him and many other characters can just camp at the edge of the stage and when someone gets close grab > bthrow for the kill.


Just think about if theres something that has a bigger advantage than what you considered broken wouldn't it be the more likely reason its banned?

 

[buenob]

the concept of in-game judging is flawed, since it's next to impossible to enforce...

 

[Deoxyribonucleic_acid]

◎◇ Yoshi Island brawl should be banned. ◇◎

No it shouldn't. It's one of the least gay stages in the game.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

There is no such thing as a "gay" stage. All stages are thoroughly asexual other than Port Town Aero Dive and Big Blue which are awesome and manly.

 

[Linkshot]

There is no such thing as a "gay" stage. All stages are thoroughly asexual other than Port Town Aero Dive and Big Blue which are awesome and manly.

Despite being nowhere near good discussion, this is easily the best post in the thread.

 

[deepseadiva]

At this point you are fighting against the stage, and that is a ridiculous notion.

I just wanted to point out that this phrase is getting old, especially since it's very fallacious. This is Smash Bros - you're always playing against the stage. The only point to where it becomes "ridiculous" is when the degree to which we're fighting against the stage begins to severely outweigh the fighting of the opponent.

Pictochat for example, does not fulfill that requirement.

 

[GwJ]

I'd also like to point out the notion that because you have to jump or airdodge during a fight to avoid a stage-caused hazard, doesn't mean you're fighting the stage.

 

[fkacyan]

I'd also like to point out the notion that because you have to jump or airdodge during a fight to avoid a stage-caused hazard, doesn't mean you're fighting the stage.

That's the definition of fighting the stage, buddy.

 

[deepseadiva]

Yea Jumpman... that is kinda the obvious example...

 

[GwJ]

You know what I mean. -_-

 

[buenob]

lol GW, welcome to the stage legality thread

seriously, i'm pretty sure we all know what 'fighting against the stage' means, and I'm pretty sure that anyone who just says 'fighting against the stage' means "omg I spend more time worrying about stage positions/hazards/[feature] then I do about my opponent"

let's assume we're all smart here? kthx
--
it's too bad that there is just a 'stage legality' thread... there really should be a "hazard", "walk-off", "moving", etc. - legality threads... since this is the 2nd thread on just stage legality, i think the levels as a whole have been fairly thoroughly reviewed, but time and time again i see "oh but there's a walkoff" and then everyone posts their opinions on those features... maybe it's time to start discussing feature-legality, then we can come back to stages as a whole with more insight?..

 

[infomon]

^^ I kinda like this.

especially since I still want proof that a permanent wall means ban-worthiness... lulz

 

[Linkshot]

Depends on the placement of the wall. If it's easy to chaingrab into and not quickly interruptable by the stage (See: Onett cars), it should be banned.

 

[bobson]

Feature legality can't really be discussed independent of specific stage layouts. All features are inherently dependent on the stage they're placed in; the walkoffs on Distant Planet and Delfino Plaza, for example, aren't bad because the stages give you enough room to avoid abuse consistently so that the matches don't devolve into who can abuse the walkoffs first. The same isn't true for stages like Mario Circuit and Bridge of Eldin, where the walkoffs are so easy to abuse that the game changes into Super Chaingrab Bros. Brawl.

 

[buenob]

[edit because my first post didn't make sense...]bobson - if all features are level dependent, but levels are made up of features, would it not make sense to define the features in a context outside of the level, to give more meaning to each level?

instead of looking at it as "on level x, features y->z aren't so big a deal" would it be useful to say "concerning featrue x, levels y->z deem it not a big deal because of"... maybe we could come to some kind of consensus as to what is "too invasive"

you mention chaingrabs and BoE, but the same can't be said for onnett or yoshi's... the main feature being that there isn't a large->flat area in which to lead up to the "walkoff"... how big of an area is too big?

rando eg. - slanted floors lead to "camping" on the flat part adjacent to the bottom of the floor (or at the bottom of the slanted area), due to the fact that if your opponent is "uphill" they have less options

 

[Linkshot]

I have the upper ground, Mario! I can't win!

Wait, that's a bad thing!

 

[buenob]

lol it's relatively character specific, but yeah I would still say mario is at a disadvantage upwards on a slope... his sh->fireball->retreat or full-hop -> fireball no longer work really... basically only has the advantage on standing fireball, and that is slow and laggy, and won't bounce upwards, so if the opponent calls it, can just do an aerial approach...

i'm not saying the grounded fireball doesn't get way better, all i'm saying is that when you take into account all options on a hill, there's less good ones, and none that in my opinion are 'game-breaking'

since you know, against mario, all i'd have to do is move away from him and use any projectile, forcing him off...

point is... regardless of me being right or wrong, i think that this type of discussion is needed in order to advance our overall knowledge of the stages, and come up with something that has more grounds than our opinions on just the levels as a whole...

 

[Linkshot]

I'm waiting for the day somebody comes in here wanting to ban Final Destination and Battlefield for being too blue.

Horrible, HORRIBLE typo.

 

[highfive]

I feel that Falcon's Aero Drive should be legal. It has a flat platform most of the time and the hazards are really easy to avoid without much problem.

 

[fkacyan]

I feel that Falcon's Aero Drive should be legal. It has a flat platform most of the time and the hazards are really easy to avoid without much problem.

People rage at me for using region as a talking point, but the corrolation is so effing high....

 

[infomon]

People rage at me for using region as a talking point, but the corrolation is so effing high....

The correlation is only high because you're looking at a really dumb sample.

 

[fkacyan]

The correlation is only high because you're looking at a really dumb sample.

I've seen no evidence to suggest these people are the vocal minority.

 

[buenob]

i missed something...

 

[infomon]

So did I.

I meant Thiocyanide was dumb for looking at an extremely small and biased sample of people (ex. the ones he notices posting in the relevant threads he reads on smashboards) as giving a reasonable representation of the opinions of serious, competent smashers from those regions.

Because he likes to troll with "oh but this region is like that and they don't count" and other such nonsense when it adds nothing of value to any discussion.

At least, I think that's what we were talking about..... tho mebbe I'm confused lol



Edit: hmm srry I think this post came out harsher than it was intended :o

 

[fkacyan]

So did I.

I meant Thiocyanide was dumb for looking at an extremely small and biased sample of people (ex. the ones he notices posting in the relevant threads he reads on smashboards) as giving a reasonable representation of the opinions of serious, competent smashers from those regions.

Because he likes to troll with "oh but this region is like that and they don't count" and other such nonsense when it adds nothing of value to any discussion.

At least, I think that's what we were talking about..... tho mebbe I'm confused lol



Edit: hmm srry I think this post came out harsher than it was intended :o

Me saying a region is metagame-irellevant is based on more than how people post. it also has to do with things like the top 6 being low-tiers (including characters like Link. Falcon, etc), stage lists that include stages like Aero Town, banning MK at tourneys / in their entire state, etc.

 

[Linkshot]

*OCD rages*

It's Port Town: Aero Dive!

Spoiler

And Rumble Falls, goddammit! Nothing to do with Bramble or Climb!

Port Town is one of those "Up to the people" stages (or, as I called them in my bBrawl tourney, "softbans")

 

[Deoxyribonucleic_acid]

I don't know why we even need to allow more stages. Most fighting games don't have stages with dumb elements.

Before you say that this is smash bros, other competitive fighters are more well put together. Maybe we need to be more like them, hmm?

 

[Kinzer]

No items, Fox only, Final Destination.

Gogogo, pewpewpew!!!

 

[Deoxyribonucleic_acid]

No items, Fox MK only, Final Destination.

Gogogo, pewpewpew!!!

What he said

 

[bobson]

[edit because my first post didn't make sense...]bobson - if all features are level dependent, but levels are made up of features, would it not make sense to define the features in a context outside of the level, to give more meaning to each level?

But in discussing them separate from the levels they're in we deprive them of their meaning. A feature cannot be determined to be bad or good unless we have a context to discuss it in, and the only real way we can discuss features outside of existing stage context would be to talk about stage builder stages.

instead of looking at it as "on level x, features y->z aren't so big a deal" would it be useful to say "concerning featrue x, levels y->z deem it not a big deal because of"... maybe we could come to some kind of consensus as to what is "too invasive"

That seems more like semantics than anything. A consensus still wouldn't be reached because of the fundamental philosophy differences about stage elements, regardless of whether we're discussing the walls on Onett specifically or some abstract concept of permanent walls with interrupting hazards separate from a stage.

you mention chaingrabs and BoE, but the same can't be said for onnett or yoshi's... the main feature being that there isn't a large->flat area in which to lead up to the "walkoff"... how big of an area is too big?

The walkoffs on Onett and Yoshi's are okay because the stage layouts and features aside from the walkoffs allow enough room to avoid overcentralization of the stage on walkoff abuse. If the stages were more focused on the walkoffs, they might not be okay, but we wouldn't be able to be sure without outlining what types of features are surrounding the walkoffs that make the stage more focused on them than Onett but less focused than BoE. And when we're doing that, we're essentially just discussing a theoretical new stage rather than Onett.

To use your own example of slanted floors, we can discuss the general advantages and disadvantages slants bring players, but it's largely meaningless until we put them in specific contexts like "deep slant ending in a walkoff with an obstructive platform off to the left that can be destroyed" or "slant on one side of a stage separate from other platforms ending in a walkoff on one side and a ledge on the other which periodically forces players standing on it to fall off."

 

[infomon]

I don't know why we even need to allow more stages.

Because they're in the game, and we're here to play the game, not something else.

other competitive fighters are more well put together. Maybe we need to be more like them, hmm?

No they aren't, and no we don't.

 

[deathbygoten]

dghdghdfghdgh

 

[Deoxyribonucleic_acid]

Because they're in the game, and we're here to play the game, not something else.

Hey we should add stags like mario bros. even though there are koopas flying everywhere, its in the game so we should add it, right?

Stage list is fine as it is.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm going to point out again that, if you want to invoke other fighters, they tend to have a very strong anti-ban on everything culture and generally believe us to be super scrubby for banning so much. This is why EVO with items happened. They do misunderstand items quite a bit (this isn't an item legality topic so I'm not going to go into the real, and almost never understood, reason items should be off), but their general philosophy of "ban as absolutely little as possible" has proven to work time and time again so I do believe Brawl benefits from adhering to such a philosophy. Of course we have to ban the Temples, but we should give the Onetts a serious look and shouldn't even think about banning the Norfairs and the Distant Planets just because they are different and potentially obnoxious. The fact that some people ban the Pokemon Stadium 2s is, of course, the worst part of all... So, from my perspective, making smash more like other fighters means allowing as many stages as possible, and I view this as a good thing (though it's not my specific goal to be like other fighters to be clear; I just want smash to be as good of a competitive game as possible).

I apply this philosophy universally which is why Thiocyanide and I agree or disagree strongly on different legality discussions. Meta Knight should not be banned. King Dedede infinites should not be banned. Ledgestalling should not be banned. Controversial stages should not be banned. If a reasonable person who understands the game could disagree over whether it should be banned, there's a 99% chance it should not be (Pirate Ship, a stage that as far as I can tell is totally degenerate if a particular side of most matchups plays to win, is my 1% exception). That's the philosophy I take, and it's why it's hard for me to go along with a proposal to discuss specific elements as acceptable or not. Let's use Mario Bros., an obviously awful stage, as an example. I agree it should be banned because, due to the immense power of the creatures, match results on it between two players of similar but non-equal skill are pretty much random (that is, there is too much variance in results for it to be acceptable for competitive play, such as WarioWare). I have personally verified this by actually playing on this stage; my experience supports my view that this stage is really quite terrible (I have significant experience on all 42 stages). I don't have a fundamental objection to super damaging crabs and turtles (in fact, I love powerful turtle attacks), I don't have a fundamental objection to the large number of walk-offs, and I don't have an objection to the huge number of teching surfaces (add the millions of other questionable features in this stage to things I don't have a fundamental objection to). It's just the overall effective result of the stage I object to; I could accept any of its elements if they were presented in a stage that was overall acceptably fair (though it's probably impossible for that hard loop to be included in a fair stage even in theory).

 

[professor mgw]

LOL! mario bros. All we need is FD and smashville.

 

[buenob]

^ obvious troll is obvious

Meta Knight should not be banned. King Dedede infinites should not be banned. Ledgestalling should not be banned.

- I completely agree with this.

Controversial stages should not be banned.

- This, I have a bit of a problem with... As you point out with pirate ship, certain levels lead to rediculous situations. There's a bunch of levels (some of you which named) which I believe fall under the same category...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

^ obvious troll is obvious


- I completely agree with this.


- This, I have a bit of a problem with... As you point out with pirate ship, certain levels lead to rediculous situations. There's a bunch of levels (some of you which named) which I believe fall under the same category...

I'm pretty sure Meta Knight or Mr. Game & Watch versus almost anyone on Pirate Ship is pretty unwinnable for the second party if the first party plays to win and just stalls wildly in the water. In that way, it's theoretically in the same boat as Temple is with matchups like Fox vs Bowser or Sonic vs Ganondorf, though a bit less obvious than the Temple.

Pretty much no other controversial stages come down to something like that.