Official Stage Legality Discussion

[AurebeshX]

We can't start the game by banning everything. Random Stage select forces one stage to be on at all times.

I think you missed the point...

 

[Kwyjibo]

If we allow 2 stage bans, Corneria and Skyworld should definitely be allowed. I'd even be willing to concede Onett and Big Blue (And I'm not the "let's ban everything that isn't Final Destination!" kind of guy. I think that more usable stages is a better system). I've always been on the fence about Big Blue, but if 2 personal stage bans became the norm, I'd be all for Big Blue

 

[xLeafybug =D]

I feel that Rumble Falls should be a legal Counterpick. It gives advantage to certain characters, and disadvantages to others. It really doesn't scroll fast enough that it's a hinderance to too many characters. I think that Rumble Falls would be a fun CP.

Discuss.

 

[Kwyjibo]

We've discussed it a lot, actually.

Personally, I absolutely hate the stage, so I'm going to try not to say anything more about it, because I know that my personal hatred for the stage could obscure my judgement as to whether or not it should be legal.

 

[MXblaze]

I feel that Rumble Falls should be a legal Counterpick. It gives advantage to certain characters, and disadvantages to others. It really doesn't scroll fast enough that it's a hinderance to too many characters. I think that Rumble Falls would be a fun CP.

Discuss.

You've got to be ****ing ****ting me.

You do realize it has that spike that is an automatic KO don't you?

 

[Linkshot]

.....MXblaze. xLeafybug.

Read this thread from the beginning. I have a lot of data on Rumble Falls that, after reading, you will find it a good counterpick.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Not really.

Let's take...Fox vs. anyone with slow aerial movement on this stage. Anyone can keep up with the speed of scrolling, but Fox is probably easily the fastest vertical moving character due to rising fair, and also the fastest falling character, so slower moving characters can't keep up. He can keep lasering and play run-away; there are quite a bit of circles on the stage where he can just rising fair, and if the opponent catches up to him, he can fast-fall down and illusion away. Characters with really predictable approaches or can't approach? He can camp one of the edges and just backthrow you into the close blast-zone. He can also camp up the top, run around for at least a minute before something interrupts him, and wait for the opponent to approach and kill obscenely early with U-smash.

Really, only the times where you can't pseudo-circle camp are
-when the stage goes back to the beginning, can't fall through that platform
-the part with the spike, which is already kind of a problem
-the part with the chokepoint, which is already a big problem
-the rising platforms part

There's also a chokepoint that can screw over many characters from even getting through, and they easily lose a stock. There's a spike that if you get hit by and you're above 20-30ish%, you can get punished for missing a tech with death. There's many pseudo-walkoffs; there's only one true one, but characters like D3 and Falco can still CG you until the edge and just fthrow (D3s a much more viable threat for this, since his CG isn't percent restricted and his Fthrow is stronger) and you die. And as aforementioned, you can camp along the small blast-zones if you're at low percent and you're opponent has more than like 40%, or if they just have a really predictable approach, you can punish with death. If you're ahead a stock, you could camp the low blast-zone. If he comes, you grab him, if he doesn't, well you're ahead a stock, and you win.

There are way too many problems for this to be a viable counterpick.

 

[infomon]

vids or it didn't happen

Spoiler

sorry to do this to ya lol

 

[bobson]

Let's take...Fox vs. anyone with slow aerial movement on this stage. Anyone can keep up with the speed of scrolling, but Fox is probably easily the fastest vertical moving character due to rising fair, and also the fastest falling character, so slower moving characters can't keep up. He can keep lasering and play run-away; there are quite a bit of circles on the stage where he can just rising fair, and if the opponent catches up to him, he can fast-fall down and illusion away.

Okay, you're Fox. I'm Luigi. Second-lowest aerial movement.
You're at the top right. I approach the top from the middle, slightly to the right. Do you run to the left, and risk getting hit? Or do you stand there and wait for me to get closer, also risking getting hit? Do you fastfall, risking getting hit yet again?

You don't seem to understand that you cannot actually circle camp on a platform that can be jumped through. This is why you can't circle camp on Battlefield or Lylat Cruise. Let alone the fact that the stage moves, which defies the concept of circle camping outright; you cannot camp forever if you camping spot moves off of the screen. In my last reply to this argument I mentioned a bunch of different situations off the top of my head which would all mitigate any type of circle camping you could do, and all of them happens several times per match. And I will again bring up the idea that abusing a positional advantage to run out the timer is not possible when it moves off the screen for large periods of time.

Characters with really predictable approaches or can't approach? He can camp one of the edges and just backthrow you into the close blast-zone.

Why doesn't Fox just use this strategy for characters with "really predictable approaches" on all stages? Just wait and backthrow them off the stage, then gimp them.
What's that? The other player isn't required to be predictable?
Well, ****.

He can also camp up the top, run around for at least a minute before something interrupts him, and wait for the opponent to approach and kill obscenely early with U-smash.

Or gets killed with a uair because his opponent realized his incredibly obvious strategy and predicted the usmash.

Look, to make an argument for a ban, there has to be some level of unavoidability in what you're arguing. Smashville should not be banned because Dedede can standing-chaingrab you from the left side while the platform moves and then dtilt you for death, because it is avoidable. The opponent is not forced, or even highly pressured, to be caught by this. This applies for almost all of your arguments against Rumble Falls.
The only point I can think of that wouldn't be trivial to avoid would be the chokepoint, and this is only a problem for characters who A) cannot get around it, B) can't approach from below, and C) cannot regularly beat their opponent to it. And it's not even a big problem for them; you take some damage four or five times per match. Boohoo. That's why it's a counterpick.

There's also a chokepoint that can screw over many characters from even getting through, and they easily lose a stock.

Easily lose a stock, what? This might be a problem in Metaknight VS Ganondorf, provided the Ganon player is particularly predictable (And I think Ganon can get around the chokepoint anyway).

There's a spike that if you get hit by and you're above 20-30ish%, you can get punished for missing a tech with death.

HURRRRR

There's many pseudo-walkoffs; there's only one true one, but characters like D3 and Falco can still CG you until the edge and just fthrow (D3s a much more viable threat for this, since his CG isn't percent restricted and his Fthrow is stronger) and you die.

Yes, provided Dedede catches you with ample time to CG you before it scrolls out of the screen and you're not floaty enough to move with the camera out of the CG and it's not in a speed-up segment, during which everyone will move with the camera out of the CG.

And as aforementioned, you can camp along the small blast-zones if you're at low percent and you're opponent has more than like 40%, or if they just have a really predictable approach, you can punish with death.

Which puts you right next to the blastzones as well which could be profitable to your opponent provided he doesn't feel like strolling into your grab and instead hitting you.
Oh, and I'll again point out these positions scroll off the screen, which is a bit of a ***** when trying to camp.

If you're ahead a stock, you could camp the low blast-zone. If he comes, you grab him, if he doesn't, well you're ahead a stock, and you win.

Hope your opponent doesn't air break.

Oh, and I'm sure you already know this, having obviously had plenty of experience actually playing this stage, but you can get below the beginning platform by moving around it.

 

[Dogboy]

Whatever, all they really allow in tournaments is BF and FD sans items, no handicaps, 3 stock w/ no time limit, and almost exclusively one on one matches.
Personally, if your good, then you should be able to do well on any stage in any setting. That's just me though.

I'm guessing people will wanna ban.. every stage but fd and bf. And of course the temple will be banned. The fire emblem and yoshi's story stages seem candidates for unbanning.

 

[Linkshot]

As a better argument than "HURRRRRRR", the spike is 100% avoidable and only newbies (to this stage) will get hit by it.

Spoiler

Although I seriously lol'd at that argument.

 

[kingcobra9]

if you played the stage like once before you would be prepared for the tournament and would know where the spikes are as to avoid them in a match

 

[bobson]

To all of you who support banning Pirate Ship due to water camping: are you available for wifi play anytime soon? I'm willing to give you guys the benefit of the doubt, but I still can't see how water camping could be anything beyond annoying except in matchups that are already horrible anyway (G&W VS Ganon), and I'd like to see it for myself.
I'll be posting the replays, so be warned.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I would like to mention about the spike, you can simply hold Up and immediately start climbing the ladder when you pass by. So it's 100% avoidable AND 100% survivable provided you know what you are doing in both cases.

Also, I love how you mentioned Fox would camp the top. A lot of characters thrive by being under their opponents heh.

Ruble Falls is actually not a bad stage, but I've given it too little playtime overall to make a great call. It doesn't seem outright terrible, and interactive stages are always a great compliment to all the static stages people play.

 

[deepseadiva]

To all of you who support banning Pirate Ship due to water camping: are you available for wifi play anytime soon? I'm willing to give you guys the benefit of the doubt, but I still can't see how water camping could be anything beyond annoying except in matchups that are already horrible anyway (G&W VS Ganon), and I'd like to see it for myself.
I'll be posting the replays, so be warned.

It's pretty awful, as I've lost to it in tournament as Peach (turnips, water floating). It was still close though, so I have doubts.

I struck an idea though. Everyone hates planking right? Set a ledge grab limit.

The game also records water time as well... water time limit?

 

[fkacyan]

It's pretty awful, as I've lost to it in tournament as Peach (turnips, water floating). It was still close though, so I have doubts.

I struck an idea though. Everyone hates planking right? Set a ledge grab limit.

The game also records water time as well... water time limit?

"I can't beat it, so let's ban it!"

I believe you were one of the ones arguing that Norfair is fine because planking isn't broken; ironic you should make the "BAWWWW BAN" argument at this point.

I can see why the rest of the fighter community finds this one to be a huge laughingstock. -_-;;

 

[deepseadiva]

"I can't beat it, so let's ban it!"

I believe you were one of the ones arguing that Norfair is fine because planking isn't broken; ironic you should make the "BAWWWW BAN" argument at this point.

I was proposing an option.

 

[demonictoonlink]

LOL Meno just made a good suggestion against Water Camping...
He never asked for any limits or bans.

Also, Meno, are you and I the only CO players that post elsewhere?...
I feel like Tim really has a lot to offer the community...

 

[fkacyan]

LOL Meno just made a good suggestion against Water Camping...
He never asked for any limits or bans.

The game also records water time as well... water time limit?

I question your ability to read.

 

[deepseadiva]

Still, I never ASKED for any limits or bans - I'm still only suggesting.

Considering the water time limit though, I'm not exactly sure how good it would be to implement. On Pirate Ship, there's always going to be a point were you get knocked into the water. The reason the ledge-grab-limit works so well is because no matter how oblivious you are, you're never going to surpass 50+ grabs in an average game without actively planking.

I don't know if a water-time-limit would be completly safe against normal people simply recovering.

 

[Racer]

I know I am but a lowly n00b, but why is Pictochat not banned?

 

[Kamikaze*]

I know I am but a lowly n00b, but why is Pictochat not banned?

Because people are stupid.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Because people are stupid.

lol

its not, cause it was decided that the drawings are mostly benign.

 

[MR.3]

Fire, man-eating plants, and spikes that pop out of the ground are benign?

 

[Linkshot]

Yes, when they spawn in set locations, and spawning times are in a rotation, so you know where you can stand safely.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

benign as in, they don't target anyone just pop up most of them you can see coming before they even become active

 

[GwJ]

I miss the good old days when EVERYONE played on Pictochat.

 

['V']

The thing about Pictochat is that there are multiple hazards: fire, piranha plants, rockets, spikes, swings, etc. The stage transitions at set time intervals and don't start acting until the transitions are complete, giving the players time to position themselves accordingly, somewhat at least.

Be that as it may, the transitions themselves are still random and some attacks/controller port advantages could be enough to send a person flying and/or screw up their game just by random chance. It should be the same argument as with items not being allowed. I mean.. You could get trapped inside of a whale. =P

You'd think the SBR would have given it the auto-ban button since they don't believe in randomness getting in the way of complete skill. I guess this might be one of the very few stages they like.

It's a very fun stage though. =D

 

[Linkshot]

You can't get trapped in the whale. There's also a safe zone that takes up the entire left half of the floor. Basically, stand there during any transformation and you will never get hurt by the stage.

 

['V']

I was mostly kidding about getting trapped in the whale. My friend, one time, thought he was stuck in the whale when he could just easily jump out. Just adding to the "hey anything can happen" appeal. lol

But you're gonna be fighting the other person for most of the match, so you don't really have time to safely stand in one area of the stage as you're gonna most likely be moving back and forth. Not to mention you could get hit just as the stage finishes transitioning into the stage hazards.

 

[bobson]

But you're gonna be fighting the other person for most of the match, so you don't really have time to safely stand in one area of the stage as you're gonna most likely be moving back and forth.

If you plan on winning the match, you'd better make time.

 

['V']

If you plan on winning the match, you'd better make time.

Which is why I think the SBR doesn't make any sense, which was what I was trying to get at. =D

 

[Linkshot]

As has been said many times before, access to view the SBR would be much appreciated.

In any event...PictoChat has been discussed already and is clearly CP.

 

[deepseadiva]

Just out of curiosity, how often are people "randomly" killed by Pictochat?

I mean, I can see and have experienced it happening on say, Jungle Japes, but... Pictochat? Is it odd I've never encountered that?

 

[Linkshot]

Actually, you can't get "randomly" killed by Japes. Literally impossible. Japes is pure clockwork. Pictochat has a random seed deciding which drawings appear.

 

[deepseadiva]

I know, I was just mentioning how someone might judge Jungle Japes with "ZOMG RANDOMS BAN PLZ" and how that's never happened to me on Pictochat.

 

[buenob]

i was at a pretty serious business tournament where picto chat was allowed, and of course playing against a kirby... the round started, we were tentatively approaching eachother (I was trying to avoid that low% grab shennanigans)... unfortunately he landed a grab, then the missiles spawned and I got hit by both..

i know you're playing the opponent not the level, but when you play against good opponents, sometimes the level just switches and theres nothing to be done but sit back and watch yourself get owned...

this being said, i don't want it in the banned section, i believe it solidly belongs in the counter-banned section, I just don't think it should ever not be up for consideration for banning...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

don't if you get hit by one missle you always eat the other, or is it at a certain distance where both combo?

 

[bobson]

don't if you get hit by one missle you always eat the other, or is it at a certain distance where both combo?

I'm pretty sure they have a set knockback.
DI down when you hit the right one and up when you hit the left one and you'll never hit both.

 

[buenob]

DI down when you hit the right one and up when you hit the left one and you'll never hit both.

im pretty sure you're guaranteed to hit them both the way i hit them... I was thrown into it so I hit the top-left of the bottom right missile... kirby was there with a bair if I had di'd it down anyways...