Official Stage Legality Discussion

[AlphaZealot]

Brinstar and mute city are perfectly fine stages in melée still. Frankly I think some of the reason for their ban is to give people a better chance versus mango or hbox (I doubt to many would admit this, but the list contracted in conjunction with these players rise).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Brinstar and mute city are perfectly fine stages in melée still. Frankly I think some of the reason for their ban is to give people a better chance versus mango or hbox (I doubt to many would admit this, but the list contracted in conjunction with these players rise).

That is... beyond ********.

 

[ADHD]

That is... beyond ********.

It really is.

His observations are completely out of this world to think that.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I understand that the BBR cannot ban stages until they are proven to be detrimental to the metagame by why shouldn't hosts use conservative rulesets if they bring more attendees?

 

[ADHD]

I understand that the BBR cannot ban stages until they are proven to be detrimental to the metagame by why shouldn't hosts use conservative rulesets if they bring more attendees?

Because they're ********, lol.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Because they're ********, lol.

Aren't you for a conservative ruleset?

 

[Raziek]

I understand that the BBR cannot ban stages until they are proven to be detrimental to the metagame by why shouldn't hosts use conservative rulesets if they bring more attendees?

I've yet to see any real provable correlation between a conservative stagelist and higher attendance. This is largely because the populations in these areas differ greatly, and most conservative areas won't give liberal stagelists a fair shot.

 

[ADHD]

Aren't you for a conservative ruleset?

I called the BBR ********.

@ raziek, more people are willing to fly out to nationals if they have conservative rulesets, or maybe that is only because the most successful hosts in the nation have conservative rulesets. You can look at Apex.

MLG is an exception, due to it's name.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I called the BBR ********.

oh ok I was confused for a second.



@ Raziek, if it ain't broke don't fix it. If people are getting decent turnouts there isn't any reason for them to stop using those rulesets.

 

[ADHD]

oh ok I was confused for a second.



@ Raziek, if it ain't broke don't fix it. If people are getting decent turnouts there isn't any reason for them to stop using those rulesets.

It won't catch on in the first place.

 

[KevinM]

Brinstar and mute city are perfectly fine stages in melée still. Frankly I think some of the reason for their ban is to give people a better chance versus mango or hbox (I doubt to many would admit this, but the list contracted in conjunction with these players rise).

...

Mute was on at Genesis and Armada whom had never played on the stages in Euro tournaments and thus didn't practice all that much on them never lost a match there even when he had close sets with people.

That was the final nail in the coffin for the stage, the rest of your statement is also bad.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Turn out is easily more a function of a TOs reputation for putting on solid, well run event than based on what stages are legal.

That said, I don't have any problem with TOs using whatever ruleset they want and whatever justification they want. Doesn't mean I don't think the reasoning "cause its dumb" is poor, just that a TO has a right to do whatever they want with the rules for their tournament, and they will easily be judged not by the rule set but by how well the event ran. Rules only become a factor if it disrupts running a tournament-like the Larry/dojo match rule dispute that delayed genesis for almost an entire hour. Or the time out dispute a pound 4in doubles with the peurta ricans. Granted a ruleset completely in left field would probably have a poor turn out, but a few stages on or off in either direction isn't gonna be the end if te world.

Kevin: one player not even winning a tournament got a stage banned because for one tournament he was undefeated on the stage? And so you believe mango or hboxs jiggs would not be able to beat armada on Brinstar? Peach is really good there, and it was my cp back when I played Melée, but peach is definitely not broken. How many stages would be banned if the criteria was "top 3 player in the world did not drop a game on x stage".

 

[Raziek]

It won't catch on in the first place.

There's no way you can possibly claim that with certainty, that's really ignorant. I'm sure lots of people said the walkman would never catch on, right?

And Soren, we're arguing that it IS, to an extent, broken. The ruleset is not optimized for our competitive ideals, so we intend to change it.

"if it isn't broken, don't fix it" has been proven wrong so many times that I don't even have to provide an example.

 

[Blacknight99923]

There's no way you can possibly claim that with certainty, that's really ignorant. I'm sure lots of people said the walkman would never catch on, right?

And Soren, we're arguing that it IS, to an extent, broken. The ruleset is not optimized for our competitive ideals, so we intend to change it.

"if it isn't broken, don't fix it" has been proven wrong so many times that I don't even have to provide an example.

Ideals are opinions.

Debating this whole argument is an entire is an entire debate on opinions. I agree that the BBR cannot ban stages that do not fit in their parameters however I personally will not attend a tournament with green greens legal (and I did spend over 2 hours trying to to familiarize myself with it) because consistently the stage interfered with my match I will not play on it in a tournament match, or I will be banning green greens and going metaknight when I get counterpicked to RC brinstar or norfair. That being said its my opinion that the stage should never be played on competitively.


You can't fight opinions with opinions and expect to change my or ADHD's mind. Personally I would be playing on a ruleset that had RC and brinstar banned, which would make the match ups of every high tier with metaknight stay the same or improve by a decent margin, along with my personal dislike for both stages.

tl;dr this debate is opinions I am not against the BBR not banning stages but I would perfer to play on a conservative ruleset

 

[Raziek]

I think what you mean to say is...

TL;dr I hate MK and won't use any of the legitimate stages where he's broken, and I didn't try hard enough to familiarize myself with Green Greens.

Those remarks aside, I understand that it is a difference in ideals, but that has only been established with ADHD recently. Before, he just came in spouting a lot of biased opinions about how the 9-starter is awful and makes no sense.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think what you mean to say is...

TL;dr I hate MK and won't use any of the legitimate stages where he's broken, and I didn't try hard enough to familiarize myself with Green Greens.

Those remarks aside, I understand that it is a difference in ideals, but that has only been established with ADHD recently. Before, he just came in spouting a lot of biased opinions about how the 9-starter is awful and makes no sense.

I don't put words into your mouth. I don't hate metaknight, I have always thought it was his counter picks that made him broken, I don't believe he would that great if he didn't have them.

I spent over 2 hours playing on green greens with a variety of characters along with reading several peoples opinions about it. The stage itself I personally believe should not be played on of a number of reasons including the permanent glitch hitbox ect that I feel deems it unworthy to play on with money at stake.

to be fair MLG ruleset essentially screws diddy mains who have been playing with a comfortable starter list and have relied and picked their character because of it. ADHD has a right to be upset about that to be honest.

we are debating from 2 different (I believe this is the correct word) paradigms. From 2 radical different views on these rules it is almost impossible to reconcile this. In cases like these its generally majority rules. I will fully admit this entire post is opinionated from my own personal Point of view

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't put words into your mouth. I don't hate metaknight, I have always thought it was his counter picks that made him broken, I don't believe he would that great if he didn't have them.

I spent over 2 hours playing on green greens with a variety of characters along with reading several peoples opinions about it. The stage itself I personally believe should not be played on of a number of reasons including the permanent glitch hitbox ect that I feel deems it unworthy to play on with money at stake.

Well why is it that players who know the stage are capable of playing on it, and you aren't? 2 hours... That's nothing. Keep testing.

to be fair MLG ruleset essentially screws diddy mains who have been playing with a comfortable starter list and have relied and picked their character because of it. ADHD has a right to be upset about that to be honest.

To be fair, we're essentially saying, "your character no longer gets two counterpicks per round". Why do they have a right to ***** about us evening the playing field?

we are debating from 2 different (I believe this is the correct word) paradigms. From 2 radical different views on these rules it is almost impossible to reconcile this. In cases like these its generally majority rules. I will fully admit this entire post is opinionated from my own personal Point of view

Yes, but in the case of what makes the game more competitive, it's been very firmly established that banning things you don't absolutely have to is a bad idea. This is not a matter of opinion so much as a matter of bias.

 

[Raziek]

RC, Brinstar, And Norfair are all completely legitimate stages. And if you think MK still wouldn't be broken without his counterpicks, consider how many stages you would have to cut to remove all his counterpicks.

It's the majority of the stagelist.

MK is the problem, not the stages.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Well why is it that players who know the stage are capable of playing on it, and you aren't? 2 hours... That's nothing. Keep testing.

its your opinion that its nothing

To be fair, we're essentially saying, "your character no longer gets two counterpicks per round". Why do they have a right to ***** about us evening the playing field?

That's what the rule set was, people picked falco, diddy, ic's and invested time into them because of the ruleset. when thats taken away your essentially screwing their effort. they have a right to be upset but that doesn't mean we cater to them.

Yes, but in the case of what makes the game more competitive, it's been very firmly established that banning things you don't absolutely have to is a bad idea. This is not a matter of opinion so much as a matter of bias.

bias is stating things that are opinionated. and I never claimed I was doing otherwise, people wish to ban or temp ban MK yet I say ban stages that nerf him and buff the rest of high tier. I would rather surgically ban stages than surgically ban a character.

Anwsers in red

edit ninja'd by Raziek.


define your opinion on legitament? is the BBRS opinion on whats legitament?

I could say that my opinion on legitimate is any stage that doesn't move or have hazards and it doesn't make me any more wrong than you. (that being said that isn't my opinion)

BTW
As much as I hate the stages (not the 9 stage starter idea) I think MLG copy and pasting BBR rulesets was the right thing to do for a "professional" organization trying to use an official ruleset. That is my opinion for future reference

 

[Raziek]

Anwsers in red

edit ninja'd by Raziek.


define your opinion on legitament? is the BBRS opinion on whats legitament?

I could say that my opinion on legitimate is any stage that doesn't move or have hazards and it doesn't make me any more wrong than you. (that being said that isn't my opinion)

BTW
As much as I hate the stages (not the 9 stage starter idea) I think MLG copy and pasting BBR rulesets was the right thing to do for a "professional" organization trying to use an official ruleset. That is my opinion for future reference

As far as I'm concerned, a legitimate stage is one that does not detract TOO much from gameplay, or have a single strategy that is too dominant. Picking MK is not a strategy. Picking MK and say.... circle camping, or planking, is.

Stages are innocent until proven guilty, in my mind, and I've yet to see anything besides "MK is too strong, bawwww" that should ever disqualify RC, Brinstar, or Norfair from any reasonable stagelist.

 

[Linkshot]

There is really nothing more to say than "Go back to arcade fighters" if you think stages are an interference in Smash instead of a third party with as much influence as an entire character.

Even the flattest and least interfering stage is biased. This is Smash Bros. Stop pretending flat = neutral.

Flat, static stages are biased toward characters that love ground-based play and can't adapt/maneuver well.

Dynamic stages with platforms all over the place benefit characters that can maneuver and have their potential scattered amongst various situations.

Notice how G&W dropped more and more as we took stages away? His potential is evenly spread amongst each situation, whereas Diddy's is pooled ENTIRELY into the opponent having nowhere to run from the bananas.

Flat, static stages offer no way to get away from characters based on stage control.
Dynamic stages force characters to adapt to different styles of play.

Pokemon Stadium (both), Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Rainbow Cruise, Port Town: Aero Dive, and especially Rumble Falls are amongst my favourite stages, since I, as a player, excel in adaptability. Is it fair to me, every other player like me, and every character that fits this bill that the current stage list sees adaptability as a useless trait?

 

[Blacknight99923]

As far as I'm concerned, a legitimate stage is one that does not detract TOO much from gameplay, or have a single strategy that is too dominant. Picking MK is not a strategy. Picking MK and say.... circle camping, or planking, is.

Stages are innocent until proven guilty, in my mind, and I've yet to see anything besides "MK is too strong, bawwww" that should ever disqualify RC, Brinstar, or Norfair from any reasonable stagelist.

I have and always will be someone who is adamantly against constant hazards even if they are on a time table. I do not feel that in

Personally I don't have a huge issue with halberd because of how there isn't usually a hazard in place(like maybe one every minute on average of a complete cycle) even though snake is broken on halberd (that being said he doesn't have another OMFG broken stage and this is directed at MK being broken on brinstar and DK/ falco on japes)

I personally have always felt that picking your character is the first decision you make in a match, by picking Falcon you made a bad character decision because of who your likely to face against in a tournament. Therefor I feel that picking a character is in fact a strategy especially when you pick a character to win. When you pick metaknight and then counterpick any one of his CP stages you have made the game to the point where its unrealistic to beat MK on.

I believe what honestly separates MK from the rest of A tier is in fact his ability to counterpick any into a rather bad disadvantage. Without it I don't think the character is significantly better than snake.

 

[Raziek]

I have and always will be someone who is adamantly against constant hazards even if they are on a time table. I do not feel that in

Personally I don't have a huge issue with halberd because of how there isn't usually a hazard in place even though snake is broken on halberd (that being said he doesn't have another OMFG broken stage)

I personally have always felt that picking your character is the first decision you make in a match, by picking Falcon you made a bad character decision because of who your likely to face against in a tournament. Therefor I feel that picking a character is in fact a strategy especially when you pick a character to win. When you pick metaknight and then counterpick any one of his CP stages you have made the game to the point where its unrealistic to beat MK on.

I believe what honestly separates MK from the rest of A tier is in fact his ability to counterpick any into a rather bad disadvantage. Without it I don't think the character is significantly better than snake

Halberd isn't broken for Snake. It's a good stage, but by no means is he broken on it, and in fact suffers a lot of trouble getting back to the ground on the air phases. He really only benefits from the low ceiling on deck, and the platform to camp under. It is NOWHERE CLOSE to auto-win.

You mis-interpreted what I said. I meant specifically in the concept of stages. For example, in the case of Brinstar, I said that no one strategy should be too powerful. Picking MK is not a strategy, he's just a character. Picking MK and spamming Nado endlessly would be a strategy, but that isn't broken. MK and Brinstar just happen to mesh very well together, so it's a strong character counterpick.

Unless a stage devolves into a singular gameplay type (such as wall CG'ing with Dedede), then I don't think a character being very strong on a stage is even close to reasonable grounds for a ban.

Stop banning stages just because MK is good on them, that's scrubby as all hell.

Furthermore, if you think Snake is on MK's level, you're delusional. Snake has bad match-ups and bad stages, he can be counterpicked against.

MK's WORST stage is FD.

...

 

[Linkshot]

MK's worst stage is Shadow Moses Island. He really can't kill on that stage until something like 150%, with a fresh grounded Shuttle Loop or glAir. (Glide Attack)

Sadly Dedede exists to abuse the stage to the point it's his *****. :V

 

[Raziek]

MK's worst stage is Shadow Moses Island. He really can't kill on that stage until something like 150%, with a fresh grounded Shuttle Loop or glAir. (Glide Attack)

Sadly Dedede exists to abuse the stage to the point it's his *****. :V

Alright, I'll give you that, but I meant LEGAL stages. xD

 

[Blacknight99923]

Halberd isn't broken for Snake. It's a good stage, but by no means is he broken on it, and in fact suffers a lot of trouble getting back to the ground on the air phases. He really only benefits from the low ceiling on deck, and the platform to camp under. It is NOWHERE CLOSE to auto-win.
I threw the word out to loosely, but it is a VERY good stage for snake and one I can't think of a match up where it would be BAD to counterpick against someone (as in snakes disadvantedge by even a greater degree)
You mis-interpreted what I said. I meant specifically in the concept of stages. For example, in the case of Brinstar, I said that no one strategy should be too powerful. Picking MK is not a strategy, he's just a character. Picking MK and spamming Nado endlessly would be a strategy, but that isn't broken. MK and Brinstar just happen to mesh very well together, so it's a strong character counterpick.
no I didn't, I was stating that in my opinion picking a character is a strategy or that was what I meant to disagree on, however using your point of view yes that is correct
Unless a stage devolves into a singular gameplay type (such as wall CG'ing with Dedede), then I don't think a character being very strong on a stage is even close to reasonable grounds for a ban.
to be honest I think the fact that MK can CP so heavily is just as ridiculous as a walk off or infinite that doesn't even work on every character, you could avoid those by picking any character that doesn't get Cg'd but you can only avoid MKs CP ability by picking MK

Stop banning stages just because MK is good on them, that's scrubby as all hell.
So I can't ban stages to even out the metagame? We ban stages because D3 will CG you to oblivion or wall infinite you.
Furthermore, if you think Snake is on MK's level, you're delusional. Snake has bad match-ups and bad stages, he can be counterpicked against.
MK and snake are not on the same level of play in the current metagame partially due to the fact that MK can always CP to a stage thats heavily in his favor. While MK will most likely always be the best character (I mean japan thinks he's the best even with their stage list, that being said I don't see MK being nearly as good there) I don't think he will be a tier apart from the rest of A tier

yes snake does have bad match ups but MK does not have ridiculously overpowering ones on any A tier character when it isn't on any of his major CPs

MK's WORST stage is FD.
yes it probably is
...

Anwsers in red

 

[Raziek]

I imagine that Dedede vs. Snake, or maybe even Fox vs. Snake isn't that great on Halberd. Dedede weighs just as much and controls the stage like a monster with his grab range, and Fox has DAT UPSMASH, so the vertical advantage he would gain would be mitigated.

MK CP'ing heavily is because MK is a retardedly good character! As for restrictive stagelists solving the problem, take a look at East Coast US. One of the most restrictive stage lists, and also MK central, USA. I don't think that's a coincidence to be honest. MK being restricted in a conservative stagelist is true, yes, but it doesn't magically bring him in line with the rest of the cast. All the results show exactly the opposite.

Granted, I can't place 100% faith in the MLG results, because I agree with ADHD that the TVs certainly affected things to some degree, but at the same time, people claimed MK would dominate completely with the MLG stagelist.

Surprise, he didn't.

On Dedede, we ban stages on those tactics because they take no THOUGHT. Any moron can sit there and down throw you to 300, no skill involved. The stage always devolves into pick Dedede and wall infinite, or you lose. Some could argue that Brinstar is "Pick MK or lose", but I disagree, because he has no strategy that is overly dominant, he's just REALLY good there.

 

[ADHD]

If you believe green greens is fine you have clearly never played a good metaknight on that stage--it is literally the claim that mk is too good on this stage coming to a reality. Also, snake on halberd makes certain matchups nearly unwinnable. He is just that much better there.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I imagine that Dedede vs. Snake, or maybe even Fox vs. Snake isn't that great on Halberd. Dedede weighs just as much and controls the stage like a monster with his grab range, and Fox has DAT UPSMASH, so the vertical advantage he would gain would be mitigated.

MK CP'ing heavily is because MK is a retardedly good character! As for restrictive stagelists solving the problem, take a look at East Coast US. One of the most restrictive stage lists, and also MK central, USA. I don't think that's a coincidence to be honest. MK being restricted in a conservative stagelist is true, yes, but it doesn't magically bring him in line with the rest of the cast. All the results show exactly the opposite.

Granted, I can't place 100% faith in the MLG results, because I agree with ADHD that the TVs certainly affected things to some degree, but at the same time, people claimed MK would dominate completely with the MLG stagelist.

Surprise, he didn't.

On Dedede, we ban stages on those tactics because they take no THOUGHT. Any moron can sit there and down throw you to 300, no skill involved. The stage always devolves into pick Dedede and wall infinite, or you lose. Some could argue that Brinstar is "Pick MK or lose", but I disagree, because he has no strategy that is overly dominant, he's just REALLY good there.

I don't believe he is that retardedly good of a character without those counterpicks



and as to halberd
snake doesn't do worse against them I would imagine he already does

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Wait, did ADHD say that all of the successful big tournaments not named MLG use conservative stage lists?

*looks at WHOBO*

Incorrect.

 

[ADHD]

Wait, did ADHD say that all of the successful big tournaments not named MLG use conservative stage lists?

*looks at WHOBO*

Incorrect.

Okay, one exception! But the results were infested with metaknight! A result of what happens without MLG's TV lag!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Which results? WHOBO 1 or WHOBO 2? You're also acting as if the other big tournaments not named MLG weren't often MK infested. Wasn't the last APEX, or one of the Phase tournaments like, MKs for 6/8 of the top spots?

 

[Raziek]

If you believe green greens is fine you have clearly never played a good metaknight on that stage--it is literally the claim that mk is too good on this stage coming to a reality. Also, snake on halberd makes certain matchups nearly unwinnable. He is just that much better there.

I'll say it again. A character being just plain good on a stage, is not a reason to ban it. A character with a broken strategy like Wall CG's, or Walk-offs (For something like Eldin, for example), is.

Let me ask you something, ADHD.

Why was Japes banned in the East Coast?

 

[ADHD]

I'll say it again. A character being just plain good on a stage, is not a reason to ban it. A character with a broken strategy like Wall CG's, or Walk-offs (For something like Eldin, for example), is.

Let me ask you something, ADHD.

Why was Japes banned in the East Coast?

Green greens is a stage with very little ground other than the center. I don't care what character you are, you absolutely need ground to combat metaknight. HELL, metaknight needs ground to combat metaknight! Even when camping the center he can easily stop you and force you into the air, not to mention the lower blastzones to greatly influence his gimping ability. His gameplay is notably better.

I don't know why Japes was banned, I wasn't present during those brawl times. Although, I assume it was because of the ridiculously high ceiling, water, clap trap, falco, dk, and metaknight's planking abilities. I believe Japes is a far superior competitive stage to brawl than green greens, though. @ nintendofreak: If I recall correctly, whobo 1 had only one character in the top 5 that wasn't metaknight, and that was CO18. Apex had ice climbers, snake, and pikachus/diddy kongs to follow out of the to 5. Dunno bout phase.

 

[-Ran]

Phase tournaments like, MKs for 6/8 of the top spots?

Phase tournaments are mostly 90% Dallas players, which more or less all use MK. Lol.


Japes was banned mostly due to the camping that it encourages. It has a feature that at the time, no other legal stage had. Disjointed platforms that remain. This makes camping either platform incredibly easy, and limits the amount of approaches your opponent can utilize. Most of the combat thus, would take place with someone trying to wrestle control of a platform away from the other player, so that they could have a chance to gain the lead.

The platform camping was even further exasperated against opponents that didn't have a cancel-able projectile, or a good forward air. This meant that their only viable method of getting onto the platform was from doing a double jump / air dodge. Essentially though, any method of getting onto the platform by anyone was beaten by simply shield + grab, unless when dealing with something like MK's tornado.

 

[ADHD]

Phase tournaments are mostly 90% Dallas players, which more or less all use MK. Lol.

And there you have it Nintendofreak, your questions have been answered.

 

[Raziek]

Green greens is a stage with very little ground other than the center. I don't care what character you are, you absolutely need ground to combat metaknight. HELL, metaknight needs ground to combat metaknight! Even when camping the center he can easily stop you and force you into the air, not to mention the lower blastzones to greatly influence his gimping ability. His gameplay is notably better.

I don't know why Japes was banned, I wasn't present during those brawl times. Although, I assume it was because of the ridiculously high ceiling, water, clap trap, falco, dk, and metaknight's planking abilities. I believe Japes is a far superior competitive stage to brawl than green greens, though. @ nintendofreak: If I recall correctly, whobo 1 had onl one character in the top 5 that wasn't metaknight, and that was CO18. Apex had ice climbers, snake, and pikachus/diddy kongs to follow out of the to 5. Dunno bout phase.

I'll concede that Green Greens is absurdly strong for MK, but I still don't think that justifies a ban.

Nobody is screaming "ban ICs" because of FD. From what I can tell, the hate for green greens stems from the combination of 3 factors:

1) It's an extremely strong CP for MK, which does not justify a ban.
2) It has random elements that some argue marginalize gameplay, despite rarely deciding a match and being rather predictable. Doesn't justify a ban.
3) People just don't like it, which again, doesn't justify a ban.

These three things TOGETHER seems to be enough to convince people to ban it, despite the fact that it doesn't really fit ban criteria.

Also, none of the reasons you stated for banning Japes are legitimate, I'll explain why if I must.

 

[ADHD]

what about Ran? He touched up on it pretty good. Nap time.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I'll concede that Green Greens is absurdly strong for MK, but I still don't think that justifies a ban.

Nobody is screaming "ban ICs" because of FD. From what I can tell, the hate for green greens stems from the combination of 3 factors:

1) It's an extremely strong CP for MK, which does not justify a ban.
2) It has random elements that some argue marginalize gameplay, despite rarely deciding a match and being rather predictable. Doesn't justify a ban.
3) People just don't like it, which again, doesn't justify a ban.

These three things TOGETHER seems to be enough to convince people to ban it, despite the fact that it doesn't really fit ban criteria.

Also, none of the reasons you stated for banning Japes are legitimate, I'll explain why if I must.

they don't justify a ban in the BBR however the BBR is not a goverment. If a majority of smashers at a tournament want Green Greens banned then it will be and stay that way on the WC and northeast

 

[Raziek]

what about Ran? He touched up on it pretty good. Nap time.

I've gotta head to a biweekly tournament, so this will be my last on the matter until later tonight, but I don't really think encouraging camping is a reason to ban, considering the nature of the game Brawl is.

Now, if it was proven that camping was an unbeatable strategy where you either had to camp or you lost, then I'd be more inclined to accept the reasoning, but as Ran stated, it isn't unbeatable, it's just really difficult.

No worse than non-invincible planking (Marth, Pit, GW, ROB, etc) as far as I'm concerned.

I can see why MLG left it out, because they don't want to see really campy matches, but they're a company, so they're allowed to be a little scrubby in the interest of business.

On that note, MikeHaze vs. Ook was pretty hyped, from what I could tell on the video, so Green Greens was a good business decision for them. xD

Edit: @Soren

I know that, but that doesn't make it right. As far as I'm concerned, this discussion shouldn't include things like, "We just don't like it, waahhhh", because that's not competitively sound logic.