Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Brahma]

Is there any way the first post can be updated with the current (but still debatable) legal stage list, for convenience's sake?

 

[Kip]

75m - It's big, easy to run away, 'grounded' on the right side (yes, and the left, but the left is too dangerous to play at on the top) and has hazards that can kill without much warning. Oh, and the ladders can really mess people up.
- Ban

Battlefield - Small, but platforms to allow movement. Also harder to spam and doesn't cause recovery issuee.
- Neutral/Random

Bridge of Eldin - Large but flat. Really easy to camp/spam. Since it is grounded, certain characters have a huge advantage (Falco and King Dedede d-throw chain from 0% to dead). The hazards are not that bad and the hole in the middle can mix things up. However, the fact it is grounded still gives a massive advantage to a select few.
- Ban (counterpick at best if the D3 chain is deemed not overpowered.)

Castle Siege - Four basic parts: Outside is small, gives minimal advantages, but has a nasty lip at the right when trying to recover. The Hall is larger, the statues prevent projectile spamming till destroyed and the platforms further prevent most projectiles. This area is grounded however. Underground's swaying from side to side can prevent some recoveries, aside from that, not much to it. The fourth is the transition area. It is completely flat and grounded, it is also possible to get stuck under it as the stage starts to change. Most of the elements are sound and the 'bad' parts are generally minimized with short duration. I'd like for this to be a neutral stage, but the transition area(s) ruins that.
- Counterpick (ban if D3 like chains are overpowered here).

Delfino Plaza - Lots of changes. There are two main parts: The platform section is very neutral. Each 'switch' in areas changes the platforms, thus granting or removing any previous advantages. The second part is in the city. Some areas are ground and/or offer walls for 'infinite' chains, but due to the nature of change for the level, the hazards are limited by duration. These areas turn more into tactical/camping spots, but do not 'break' the level since it soon changes. It reminds me of the Melee Stadium when it went to 'earth'. Someone would get to the middle or far left and both players would just wait for the stage to change.
- Neutral/Random (any advantage gained can also be lost).

Distant Planet - Grounded on the left and really easy to chain uphill, then instant death on the right. The 'items' aren't so bad, but the two mentioned stage issues are what really do it in (though I really enjoy the French version of the song here).
- Ban

Final Destination - Easy to camp/spam projectiles and dangerous lips under both edges if not careful. Many claim it is Neutral, I disagree however. It gives a large advantage to projectile users due to no platforms. In Melee it was generally neutral, but people wou:d still groan if up against a Falco there. Now it is much easier to get away with shooting at people.
- Counterpick

Flat Zone 2 - It's grounded and has many hazards that can really mess you up. The stage is also very 'small', too easy to K.O. off the edges or to (making the hazards even worse).
- Ban

Frigate Orpheon - Two stages: The first stage can prevent some recovery on the right side due to being unable to grab those edges. That can cause the right side to be a focus against people with bad recovery (but not game breaking). The second part is very neutral. However, the platforms that appear on the edges of the level can save or kill. The large issue with this level is when it changes. There is a chance to get pushed under the level then fall and lose a stock, this can be avoided easily however.
- Counterpick (bad edge) or even Neutral/Random

Green Hill Zone - Grounded, easy to camp, and the checkpoint only adds to the ability to camp. However, due to the dip, it is harder to spam as much.
- Ban (grounded, D3 style chains)

Halberd - fairly neutral the entire time. The main issue are the hazards. The cannon ball and laser blaster thing are generally easy to avoid, give plenty of warning and even allow for tactics of getting the other person into it. The claw is a different matter; you will know it is coming, just not when or exactly where. It can also K.O., causing it to be very dangerous. Dangerous to the point of giving it more attention than the other player.
- Ban (claw, sadly)

Hanenbow - Big with lots of platforms. The lower platforms can be moved to deny recovery while the other platforms prevent most projectiles from going through (either way). Due to the lack of a real 'base' area and so many platforms, it offers much to more air base combat while stopping certain chains from going on long and makes projectile spamming harder. It is very large however, so running away can be an issue.
- Counterpick (unless deemed too big)

Luigi's Mansion - the pillars can stop projectiles, while the lips on the edges can deny some recovery. The internal ceiling on the first floor can keep people alive longer. With the pillars and ceilings of the first floor it can cause play to move or seek out specific areas. This can cause some to destroy 1/2 to 3/4 of the mansion before really going at each other.
- Counterpick (not game breaking, but can mess up some strategies)

Lylat Cruise - The rocking from side to side can mess with timings for auto-cancelled landings, the lips at the edges can also prevent some recovery.
- Neutral/Random

Mario Bros. - Grounded and stage is more dangerous than players.
- Ban

Mario Circuit - Grounded. The cars have lots of warning (the board in the background even). Much of this stage is neutral, but it is grounded.
- Ban (thanks Dedede)

Mushroom Kingdom (above and below) - Grounded and has walls for 'infinite' chains. The ceilings are very low (below ground being the worst with the bricks on top). Bricks can keep people alive longer. The moving isn't much of an issue.
- Ban (grounded)

New Pork City - Very very big. Instant Death hazard isn't a problem due to stage size.
- Ban (big)

Norfair - Hazards can all be seen coming, and avoided. The lava floor and wall can stop camping and force people together. The platform layout also stops some camping. The wave of lava can even be jumped over. The bursts of lava also stop people from camping.
- Counterpick

Pictochat - Lots of changes. Some give or take advantages, they may last long enough to be game breaking (walls), but happen seldom enough to rely on. I'd say neutral due to the many changes, but can understand Ban and Counterpick.
- Neutral/Random

Pirate Ship - The hazards give enough warning but can still really mess things up (the catapult can even K.O.). The biggest problem is the change of physics and water. The floaty (falling ship) part messes with the game, but doesn't last long enough to make much of an impact. The water allows for some cheesy things, but isn't game breaking. None of his stage makes it ban material, but the quirks are not neutral.
- Counterpick

Pokémon Stadium 2 - There are lots of odd parts to this stage. The ice makes people slide, air causes floating, and electricity has a moving floor. Many people would hate to put up with these changes. These changes are not gams breaking, however, and make for a good way to mess up certain people's game.
- Counterpick

Port Town Aero Drive - The cars have little to no warning and kill.
- Ban

Rumble Falls - It has some grounded parts, though avoidable. The biggest threat is a lone thorn. The stage moves slowly (even the fast part), and even has choke-points. It seems more anti-camper than most other stages. Nothing seems too bad, and any questionable parts move off the level soon enough. The biggest concern would be the grounded parts, but those can be avoided. Someone can run away and use the changes to their advantage, but that's another part of counterpicking (since the running would limited by stage size and choke points).
- Counterpick

Shadow Moses Island - King Dedede's level. Grounded, walls, or requires vertical K.O.s. But the walls or grounded parts are what breaks the stage.
- Ban

Skyworld - Platforms you can't go through and ledges that can be destroyed. For some chatacters those are painful things, for others it isn't so bad. Nothing is too horrible and it can make for a good counter pick to try to gimp tether recovery charactets.
- Counterpick

Smashville - Very simple, doesn't hurt anyone (though can make some kills harder or easier depending on the platform).
- Neutral/Random

Spear Pillar - It turns upside-down, or close a mirror image (left goes right). Other than those it is fine.
- Ban

Summit - Ice can mess with people and there are floating parts. The big issues would be the ground on the right when sliding (easy to avoid because you float), and the deadly fish. The fish gets those in the water so it is more of a spike to fish K.O. instead of random Fish. When high up the stage is void of ledges to grab.
- Counterpick (fish isn't enough to ban, and the stage offers enough 'counters' to make it interesting and not neutral).

Warioware, Inc. - Too much focus on the stage and not each other. Also, heals people, gives stars, and mushrooms.
- Ban

Yoshi's Island - Edges curve down, which can mess some up (landing on the slope and sliding back off the stage. If Ike Up-b's just right he slides off and can't recover again) or contribute to better edge guarding. The 'Support Ghosts' that make the side platforms can save people.
- Neutral/Random

Big Blue - Level kills and demands attention over other player.
- Ban

Brinstar - AcidLava more keeps people from sticking to one spot more than anything. With better recovery from all chatacters the acid saving people isn't a big deal (and adds more damage for easier K.O. later). The issue I've had came from the breakable center. When partially destroyed it stops people from running/rolling over it.
- Counterpick

Corneria - Ships no longer shot to kill. It would make a great counterpick for Ness or Lucas. The wall at the back of the ship may be an issue. Up-b to sweetspot the tail can mix things up back there.
- Counterpick (or ban if D3 and Flaco like chains break the stage).

Green Greens - Blocks kill and make walls. Apples can now heal in addition to blowing up or being thrown. Since the blocks can be used to trap (bombs) or be removed (no more wall) they are not a huge issue. The sliding throw AT can also make fhe apples an interesting reason for a counterpick against a projectile user.
- Counterpick

Jungle Japes - The Clap Trap still K.O.s and it is much harder to get out of water in Brawl than Melee.
- Ban (bad water)

Onett - Grounded and has walls. The cars no longer kill.
- Ban (walls)

Pokémon Stadium - It was Neutral in Melee and I see little reason to change that. However ... Windmill now stops people.
- Neutral/Random (counterpick understandable)

Rainbow Cruise - Big change are the 'unstable blocks'. You can no longer go through them, so they can now kill. Still a good counter for styles.
- Counterpick

Temple - Big.
- Ban

Yoshi's Island - Able to chain up the right side (grounded).
- Ban

 

[MysticKenji]

After I saw you list Halberd as banned, I stopped reading.

EDIT: I read the whole thing this time
1. If you get hit by Halberd's claw, it's your fault
2. FD will never be anything less than Neutral/Random
3. Pictochat probably won't be neutral.

 

[AlexX]

You didn't miss much... A lot of his bans were purely because of Dedede's chaingrab.

You know, the move that hasn't yet been proven broken? The one that most of the cast has found ways of getting out of?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think I may have discovered a tactic that breaks the Pirate Ship which is sad because I really like the Pirate Ship, but anyway here it goes.

Some characters are really, really good at stalling in the water. I have seen exactly zero people do this in videos for some reason I cannot fathom, but if you're up and the right character, it's oftentimes best to jump in the water and wait there for your opponent. So far I've seen how effective it is for Mr. Game & Watch and Ness.

Mr. Game & Watch can just spam short hops until someone comes at him. His up special is invincible for most of the way up so it's completely safe in this context, and then the lag of them hitting the water and plunging a bit from the speed of the fall gives a guaranteed key. The only things that can dislodge me from this are the rock and the tornado which are sufficiently rare to make the threat of time over enough to force the hopeless approach. Sure some characters can fight back from the ship, but most of the cast simply cannot.

Ness has an even more dangerous game as he doesn't even have to be ahead to water stall. He just short hops out of the water and spams Pk Thunder. This is impractical to avoid all day as he will wear down the shield; approaching Ness is mostly forced. Ness usually has time to ground the Pk Thunder in that case, and then he can use his down aerial on opponents who come at him. This spike is very powerful; it has a pretty good shot of killing off the bottom even with the water there. Ness seems literally unbeatable with a lot of characters if he is tactical on this level; at the very least, I can't find a counter tactic that is not character dependent (or, failing at that, a counter tactic for each individual character).

Also, we discovered that the warning the cannonballs give isn't quite as generous as it seemed. Notably, if Snake begins his ftilt just as the tower appears in the background and hits someone with both hits, he can be blasted with a cannonball before he has a chance to recover. This actually decided a match tonight, and needless to say the Snake player was very angry and dead convinced Pirate Ship needed banning (he already hated the level because of the aforementioned water stalling). I tried to say that he could have not attacked, seeing the tower, but his response was the hard to argue against "should I not have punished you knowing there was a possibility of a cannonball being fired at me?".

So, I love Pirate Ship, but this seems to be an issue. Does anyone have any arguments against this and viable strategies to deal with it?

 

[Loyal2NES]

Hanenbow - Big with lots of platforms. The lower platforms can be moved to deny recovery while the other platforms prevent most projectiles from going through (either way). Due to the lack of a real 'base' area and so many platforms, it offers much to more air base combat while stopping certain chains from going on long and makes projectile spamming harder. It is very large however, so running away can be an issue.
- Counterpick (unless deemed too big)

Ban, the lack of grabbable edges on all but one or two of the leaves severely gimps certain characters... and. IIRC, the leaves are too close to Side KO proximity for comfort anyway.

Rumble Falls - It has some grounded parts, though avoidable. The biggest threat is a lone thorn. The stage moves slowly (even the fast part), and even has choke-points. It seems more anti-camper than most other stages. Nothing seems too bad, and any questionable parts move off the level soon enough. The biggest concern would be the grounded parts, but those can be avoided. Someone can run away and use the changes to their advantage, but that's another part of counterpicking (since the running would limited by stage size and choke points).
- Counterpick

Ban, for the same reason presented for stages like Big Blue - Players are often found paying more attention to the stage hazards than the opponents themselves.

Spear Pillar - It turns upside-down, or close a mirror image (left goes right). Other than those it is fine.
- Ban

Agree, but it's also worth noting that the bottom half of the level is a paradise for campers (especially Ike X_x)... Further, if you're on the bottom half of the stage when a laser is going horizontally through there? Unless you're right at the edge, you are screwed.

Castle Siege - Four basic parts: Outside is small, gives minimal advantages, but has a nasty lip at the right when trying to recover. The Hall is larger, the statues prevent projectile spamming till destroyed and the platforms further prevent most projectiles. This area is grounded however. Underground's swaying from side to side can prevent some recoveries, aside from that, not much to it. The fourth is the transition area. It is completely flat and grounded, it is also possible to get stuck under it as the stage starts to change. Most of the elements are sound and the 'bad' parts are generally minimized with short duration. I'd like for this to be a neutral stage, but the transition area(s) ruins that.
- Counterpick (ban if D3 like chains are overpowered here).

Counterpick or Neutral. D3's chaingrab is hardly a problem as you've got a multitude of platforms to hang out on during the indoor phase.

However I have seen videos of characters glitching through the stage during Transition phases to their death which may be a problem.

Regarding the Halberd's Claw, it's just as predictable as the cannon or laser, and in my experience not as deadly. You also get about a second or so's warning where the claw stops swinging around before it extends.

Predictable Stage Hazards that one can strategically use to their advantage is hardly grounds for a ban.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

However I have seen videos of characters glitching through the stage during Transition phases to their death which may be a problem.

*shameless plug*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaqB89H4saY
@ 1:01

 

[AlexX]

Ban, the lack of grabbable edges on all but one or two of the leaves severely gimps certain characters... and. IIRC, the leaves are too close to Side KO proximity for comfort anyway.

The sides aren't very close compared to the majority of stages. I'd say they're about average, so you're not really going to be seeing too many cheap kills.

You can grab onto all 3 bottom leaves (the two on the bottom of the right tree and the one sticking out from the water), both normally and with tethers. It doesn't really gimp recovery.

Ban, for the same reason presented for stages like Big Blue - Players are often found paying more attention to the stage hazards than the opponents themselves.

What stage hazards will be taking your attention? It moves at a reasonable pace and the spikes are always in the same place. When it speeds up you're given plenty of warning, so it shouldn't bother the fight too strongly.

Further, if you're on the bottom half of the stage when a laser is going horizontally through there? Unless you're right at the edge, you are screwed.

You can shield the laser.

Regarding the Halberd's Claw, it's just as predictable as the cannon or laser, and in my experience not as deadly. You also get about a second or so's warning where the claw stops swinging around before it extends.

You can also turn it into your opponent's problem by simply touching them (similar to how the Gooey Bomb works)

 

[smashbro29]

i say halberd be counterpick it's got a few distractions but they're easy to avoid.
is there an official list as of right now? (or at least what's been agreed on so far)

 

[LoyalSoldier]

Corneria should be banned...there are several glitches (rare but possable) such as an infinate grab glitch.
i think stages w/ walk off edges(MK, f-8 circut, ect.), glitches, and unfair advantages should be banned...

like on shadow moses island, the walls make it depressingly hard to kill someone if you have weak up attacks (sonic)

Rare, but possible? I think I have seen rare, but possible glitches on just about every stage. That is no reason to ban it. The only glitches I care about are common and unbalancing ones.

 

[Chexr]

Whats the deal with Luigi's Mansion not being banned? It's basically a mini-hyrule temple. It's easy to live up to 250+ and with Lucario it's EXTREMELY broken due to his damage increase. Even if you take the time to give up fighting position to kill the pillars it respawns so fast its easy to just camp the ledge until it respawns and continue camping under the pillars.

Also the ledges are worse than PS1. I remember a match where I was wolf and I got knocked off the ledge from someone on the stage with like a jab or something, hit Up-B directly after (going straight up), and getting trapped under the grass part at 15%

 

[Mic_128]

Ban, the lack of grabbable edges on all but one or two of the leaves severely gimps certain characters.

You can grab/tether the spiky ends of the leaves, and there's plenty, so no problems there.

is there an official list as of right now? (or at least what's been agreed on so far)

Nope.

Whats the deal with Luigi's Mansion not being banned? It's basically a mini-hyrule temple. It's easy to live up to 250+ and with Lucario it's EXTREMELY broken due to his damage increase. Even if you take the time to give up fighting position to kill the pillars it respawns so fast its easy to just camp the ledge until it respawns and continue camping under the pillars.

It doesn't respawn that fast, and you could always asmh it down except for one bottom part and just fight with that.

Also the ledges are worse than PS1. I remember a match where I was wolf and I got knocked off the ledge from someone on the stage with like a jab or something, hit Up-B directly after (going straight up), and getting trapped under the grass part at 15%

You should have done up-b on a slight angle. Not the stages fault. (and if we're going to ban due to edges, Final D's not looking good.

 

[Kip]

I've have personal issues with that claw. The other hazards you know where they are going. That claw though. Yes, it points and wiggles at the target, but when both players are next to one another there is no telling the 'true' target. So you either stop and try to avoid the claw (letting you get punished) or you go agro and hope you're not the target. Sucks having that 50/50. Makes it worse if you are at the edge with 150%+ as either the punished or punisher if you are in cooldown frames (trying to make the most out of the hazard) or hitstun (being the desired effect for stage hazard play).

I've also noticed the level sometimes denies recovery when flying around the ship (like Melee's Battlefield). I can understand it not being banned, however.

I doubt many would agree with me on Final Destination not being Neutral. I feel it favors campers and spammers of projectiles too greatly to be neutral.

A lot of my thoughts on grounded are based on D3 like stuff, and I honestly don't know how 'broken' those chains really are. If the D3 chain can work 0% to dead against a few characters regardless of skill, then I feel only very few grounded stages should be allowed as Counterpicks. Doing that would give the person going against D3 type chains (not just from D3) can 'ban' one stage same as Melee's level restriction rule.

Luigi's Mansion as a mini-Hyrule ... I can see it. The mini platforms in the center of the first floor can also mess people up (not really a bad thing though). But unlike Hyrule, it is much smaller, preventing running away the whole match once one stock ahead. I find myself taking out one half of the mansion and leaving both floors on the other side. I then try to keep the opponent on the open side. Preasure can be applied if they try to take out the other half. Though, still a large issue. I can see a similar issue with Skyworld. I'm not sure if that's enough to ban or not.

Another thing about grounded levels are the small edges. The K.O. ability off the edge is much easier on grounded than the standard platform.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

I doubt many would agree with me on Final Destination not being Neutral. I feel it favors campers and spammers of projectiles too greatly to be neutral.

If a flat surface leads to camping and spamming, you can't really blame the level. Blame the game or the guy who can't counter the spamming, but not the level.

 

[Undrdog]

There are no "Fair" levels. Battle Field is probably the closest thing to fair, but it completely ruins Pit's arrow game to the point where I ban it from my matches.

In the end if a level gives a slight advantage, we have to deal with it. If a stage gives a large benefit to one character over another, that's called a "counterpick". I'm not sure if you've all heard of that term before, but apparently Counterpick stages are what we use when we fill out a Counterpick stage list.

Incase you missed my nice little insult, stages like Luigi's Mansion are great Counterpick stages for the reasons you list why it should be banned.

 

[Empy]

For a serious tournament or duel, just play on Final D or a custom stage that is similar.

Just use any other stages for fun matches.

It's that simple.

At least make it battlefield. Anyway, that would be more of a boring tournament then a serious one.

i say halberd be counterpick it's got a few distractions but they're easy to avoid.
is there an official list as of right now? (or at least what's been agreed on so far)

There isn't any official and it's hard to have one that's agreed on by everyone. My last attempt at that resulted in this:

Battlefield Recommended: Random Starter
Final Destination Recommended: Random Starter
Smashville Recommended: Random Starter
Yoshi's Island/Brawl Recommended: Random Starter
Lylate Cruise Recommended: Random Starter Optional: Counterpick

Delfino Plaza Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Random Starter
Frigate Orpheon Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Random Starter
Halberd Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Random Starter
Bridge of Eldin Recommended: Counterpick
Brinstar Recommended: Counterpick
Castle Seige Recommended: Counterpick
Hanenbow Recommended: Counterpick
Jungle Japes Recommended: Counterpick
Luigi's Mansion Recommended: Counterpick
Mario Circuit Recommended: Counterpick
Norfair Recommended: Counterpick
Onett Recommended: Counterpick
Pirate Ship Recommended: Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium Recommended: Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium 2 Recommended: Counterpick
Rainbow Cruise Recommended: Counterpick
Corneria Recommended: Counterpick Optional:Banned
Distant Planet Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Green Greens Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Green Hill Zone Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
PictoChat Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Port Town Aero Dive Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Shadow Moses Island Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Skyworld Recommended: Counterpick Optional:Banned
Yoshi's Island/Melee Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned

Mushroomy Kingdom Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Rumble Falls Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Spear Pillar Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Summit Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
75m Recommended: Banned
Big Blue Recommended: Banned
Flat Zone 2 Recommended: Banned
Hyrule Temple Recommended: Banned
Mario Bros. Recommended: Banned
New Pork City Recommended: Banned
WarioWare inc. Recommended: Banned

Whats the deal with Luigi's Mansion not being banned? It's basically a mini-hyrule temple. It's easy to live up to 250+ and with Lucario it's EXTREMELY broken due to his damage increase. Even if you take the time to give up fighting position to kill the pillars it respawns so fast its easy to just camp the ledge until it respawns and continue camping under the pillars.

Also the ledges are worse than PS1. I remember a match where I was wolf and I got knocked off the ledge from someone on the stage with like a jab or something, hit Up-B directly after (going straight up), and getting trapped under the grass part at 15%

Well the stage does not rebuild until the last pilar has been destroyed and these break pretty easy. Also, I don't think Lucario get's that much stronger after a certain %. And the ledges seem less of a problem because the stage is pretty big sideways.

I've have personal issues with that claw. The other hazards you know where they are going. That claw though. Yes, it points and wiggles at the target, but when both players are next to one another there is no telling the 'true' target. So you either stop and try to avoid the claw (letting you get punished) or you go agro and hope you're not the target. Sucks having that 50/50. Makes it worse if you are at the edge with 150%+ as either the punished or punisher if you are in cooldown frames (trying to make the most out of the hazard) or hitstun (being the desired effect for stage hazard play).

I doubt many would agree with me on Final Destination not being Neutral. I feel it favors campers and spammers of projectiles too greatly to be neutral.

Well actually, it's been listed as Neutral almost all the time. I myself actually use it as counterpick against some campers/spammers because the stage makes them easier to predict and it's harder to stay away from you there.

 

[icincelli]

DDD's grab

With drillshining and waveshining out, should stages with walls still be banned? The only issues that I can think of that are CGs and Falco's laser locking.

of course they should still be banned do you not know about how gay DDD's grab infinite is!!

 

[gameredman]

I have a question.
Can one make a carbon copy of a stage like WarioWare inc. and Norfair on stage builder, to remove hazards?

 

[AlexX]

of course they should still be banned do you not know about how gay DDD's grab infinite is!!

Yet it hasn't single-handedly won Dedede anycompetitions... And the majority of characters thought to be unable to escape have now discovered ways to get out of it... In fact, I think the only ones who can't escape it anymore are the ones he can chaingrab in-place, anyhow.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

I have a question.
Can one make a carbon copy of a stage like WarioWare inc. and Norfair on stage builder, to remove hazards?

You definitely can't make a carbon copy of norfair, because you can grab the edges of the floating platforms. And why should we bother, anyway?

 

[AlexX]

You definitely can't make a carbon copy of norfair, because you can grab the edges of the floating platforms.

You can, you just have to use normal blocks.

 

[TehBo49]

Battlefield Recommended: Random Starter
Final Destination Recommended: Random Starter
Smashville Recommended: Random Starter
Yoshi's Island/Brawl Recommended: Random Starter
Lylate Cruise Recommended: Random Starter Optional: Counterpick

Delfino Plaza Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Random Starter
Frigate Orpheon Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Random Starter
Halberd Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Random Starter
Bridge of Eldin Recommended: Counterpick
Brinstar Recommended: Counterpick
Castle Seige Recommended: Counterpick
Hanenbow Recommended: Counterpick
Jungle Japes Recommended: Counterpick
Luigi's Mansion Recommended: Counterpick
Mario Circuit Recommended: Counterpick
Norfair Recommended: Counterpick
Onett Recommended: Counterpick
Pirate Ship Recommended: Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium Recommended: Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium 2 Recommended: Counterpick
Rainbow Cruise Recommended: Counterpick
Corneria Recommended: Counterpick Optional:Banned
Distant Planet Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Green Greens Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Green Hill Zone Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
PictoChat Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Port Town Aero Dive Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Shadow Moses Island Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Skyworld Recommended: Counterpick Optional:Banned
Yoshi's Island/Melee Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned

Mushroomy Kingdom Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Rumble Falls Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Spear Pillar Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Summit Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
75m Recommended: Banned
Big Blue Recommended: Banned
Flat Zone 2 Recommended: Banned
Hyrule Temple Recommended: Banned
Mario Bros. Recommended: Banned
New Pork City Recommended: Banned
WarioWare inc. Recommended: Banned

That's actually a pretty good list. There are a couple things I'd change but nothing major.

 

[xerdosx]

yhea i agree with this guy stages like the snake one sorry ta sound nooby but ya any way if ya get more info plz post

 

[Kikuichimonji]

You can, you just have to use normal blocks.

Then it's not a carbon copy, because you can't jump through from the bottom.

 

[Firestorm88]

I can't be the only one who's noticed this thread is just repeating the arguments of the first 5 pages, can I?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

My post about Pirate Ship on the last page (edit: two pages back I guess) was a new point, but it got completely ignored.

 

[Xiivi]

My post about Pirate Ship on the last page (edit: two pages back I guess) was a new point, but it got completely ignored.

What you described was a simple tactic that gave certain characters a slight advantage over others, there is nothing wrong with this and it allows for the stage to serve as a good counterpick choice for these characters. It is not completely unbeatable to the point that it would elicit a stage ban. It can be gotten around with smart playing and movement. Ness spams PK thunder at you from one side of the water? Why not go jump into the other side of the water where his PK thunder cannot reach, it a very big stage water-wise.

The only valid argument is the one you put up about the cannonballs. I've love to see you try and recreate the situation with a video.

 

[Empy]

I think I may have discovered a tactic that breaks the Pirate Ship which is sad because I really like the Pirate Ship, but anyway here it goes.

Some characters are really, really good at stalling in the water. I have seen exactly zero people do this in videos for some reason I cannot fathom, but if you're up and the right character, it's oftentimes best to jump in the water and wait there for your opponent. So far I've seen how effective it is for Mr. Game & Watch and Ness.

Mr. Game & Watch can just spam short hops until someone comes at him. His up special is invincible for most of the way up so it's completely safe in this context, and then the lag of them hitting the water and plunging a bit from the speed of the fall gives a guaranteed key. The only things that can dislodge me from this are the rock and the tornado which are sufficiently rare to make the threat of time over enough to force the hopeless approach. Sure some characters can fight back from the ship, but most of the cast simply cannot.

Ness has an even more dangerous game as he doesn't even have to be ahead to water stall. He just short hops out of the water and spams Pk Thunder. This is impractical to avoid all day as he will wear down the shield; approaching Ness is mostly forced. Ness usually has time to ground the Pk Thunder in that case, and then he can use his down aerial on opponents who come at him. This spike is very powerful; it has a pretty good shot of killing off the bottom even with the water there. Ness seems literally unbeatable with a lot of characters if he is tactical on this level; at the very least, I can't find a counter tactic that is not character dependent (or, failing at that, a counter tactic for each individual character).

The Ness part doesn't make sense at all. Having Ness spam pk fire from the water to wear down a shield? Can't you just wait for it to come, roll past it and meteor Ness through the water? Also, if someone uses game & watch which he normally would never, you could just pick Fox or Falco and jump along with his up b, while spamming your laser. He will still get some damage.

Besides, it's very normal that you can't find a way to defeat these tactics with every character. You really only learn to get around these things after playing a certain character unless you do the dead obvious. Like I don't see how Ness could be a problem with this against my main (Ike), because I can just stay out of his reach and spam fair, which would be pretty lethal if you're that far to the side.

Also, we discovered that the warning the cannonballs give isn't quite as generous as it seemed. Notably, if Snake begins his ftilt just as the tower appears in the background and hits someone with both hits, he can be blasted with a cannonball before he has a chance to recover. This actually decided a match tonight, and needless to say the Snake player was very angry and dead convinced Pirate Ship needed banning (he already hated the level because of the aforementioned water stalling). I tried to say that he could have not attacked, seeing the tower, but his response was the hard to argue against "should I not have punished you knowing there was a possibility of a cannonball being fired at me?".

Well, the anger of the Snake player is probably because you guys have used this water stalling and you have hard time to get around it. The ftilt does not last as long as a cannonball, either the ball was already underway, or the Snake player did not shield as fast as was possible. Just go into training mode, pick the Snake against someone who is easy to hit twice and wait for the cannon tower to come.

I can't be the only one who's noticed this thread is just repeating the arguments of the first 5 pages, can I?

That is somewhat true, as in, people do still come in here, without reading other pages and post a problem they have with a certain stage, this is however, inevitable.

 

[ArcaneDragonX]

Here's what I think:

Neutral
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Borderline Neutral/Counterpick
Battleship Halberd
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza

Counterpick
Bridge of Eldin
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit
Onett
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rainbow Ride
Shadow Moses Island
Summit

Borderline Counterpick/Banned
Norfair
PictoChat
Pirate Ship
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island (SSBM)

Banned
75m
Big Blue
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Spear Pillar
Temple
WarioWare

 

[hizzlum]

ArcaneDragonX has a a really good list. the ssbm yoshi island should go in banned though beacuse of the difficultly to get horizontal kills which is a problems for most of the cast

 

[AlexX]

I can understand Port Town and Skyworld, but why are Norfair and Pictochat borderline banned? Both have hazards that are rather easy to avoid and can't kill until rather high %'s.

 

[Serris]

Does anyone else notice some shocking similarities between that and the one I posted a while ago?

 

[Empy]

I notice some shocking similarities with the Pokemon tier list. All this borderline stuff is pretty useless imo. What does it mean? That you are just able to select a stage, but it was a pretty close call?

 

[Florida]

n e u t r a l s t a g e s:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

c o u n t e r p i c k l e g a l:

Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Pictochat
Hanenbow
Jungle Japes
Onett (Melee)
Corneria (Melee)
Rainbow Cruise (Melee)
Green Greens (Melee)
Brinstar (Melee)
Pokémon Stadium (Melee)

b a n n e d s t a g e s:

Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Drive
WarioWare, Inc.
Distant Planet
New Pork City
The Summit
Skyworld
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Temple (Melee)
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Big Blue (Melee)

Pink = Should be debated on whether or not to lower a class.​

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

I won't quote it, but I support egruntz's list, except Lylat Cruise should not be pink. Anyone who could possibly have problems with the slight tilting there would never win a tournament anyway.

 

[Empy]

Even though I don't think Lylate Cruise will ever be counterpick, I still think the tilting is annoying, it depends which character you're playing against of course. Basically, only Wolf and Falco can take real good advantage of the tilting. But if the player knows how to use it, it can be really useful.

Also, I'm not gonna reply to egruntz list, as we've discussed it before, I don't think it's perfect, but it's not bad either. However, some stages have been discussed enough to be placed in other catogories, mostly Yoshi's Island Melee, Distant Planet and Bridge of Eldin. I believe most people are keeping Green Hill Zone counterpick as well so.

 

[solecalibur]

Bridge of Eldin shouldn't be banned should be a conter pick but heh i dont know that much even though that guy comes around you hear him (unless your death) and he goes pretty slow the camera angles are a bit of a pain but eh its one of my fav stages

Luigi's Mansion seems to be a good stage because of the no use of hyrule jumping and the stage can become pretty netruel because of it but im not an offical

 

[_Natirasha]

Here's my take on the stage list.

Neutral

Battlefield-Of course.
Frigate Orpheon-The flipping doesn't do much. The only real problem I see is that on the first part of the stage, the right edges cannot be grabbed, nerfing tether recoveries.
Yoshi's Island(B)-The middle platform's tilting is cool. The fact that there are sides makes Lucario, Mario, and other wall-grabbers have slightly better recoveries from spikes here, favoring them a little.
Lylat Cruise-The tilting stops projectiles from dominating.
Smashville-FD except better.
Delfino Plaza-The changing stage makes you change tactics a lot, stopping one thing from dominating. Water could be...problematic, but whatever.
Pokemon Stadium- Unlike it's ******* brother, this one's transformations are more simple and actually help balance.
Green Greens-Why not? The tree seems to bring out fruit much more, and the stages design kinda hampers camping.

Counterpick

Final Destination-I know I'm going to get a LOT of flak for this, but people with a fast, repeatable projectile dominate this map. It's size allows camping to reign, the sides nerf so many recoveries it's not even funny. it's just a horrible map.
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit
Pirate Ship-I'm still on the fence on this one. It might be that I'm just sick of the map, but the bombs are annoying, getting keelhauled is annoying, water is annoying, it's just generally annoying.
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 2-Unlike it's older brother, this one's transformation heavily prefer an air game, and treadmills suck.
Castle Siege
Pictochat
Hanenbow
Jungle Japes
Onett
Brinstar
Distant Planet-I really like this stage, and the rain hardly ever kills. The pellet projectiles are weak. The Bulborb add a nice risk/reward thing to the stage.

banned

Corneria-Chaingrab the side wall! A bit too big. The side with the laser hurts tethers a bit, too(fly into the laser).
Rainbow Road-I don't think sidescrollers should be legal. Especially ones that heavily prefer an aerial game.
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Drive
WarioWare, Inc.
New Pork City
The Summit
Skyworld-I might consider having this CP, but I'm not sure. Need more testing)
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Temple
Yoshi's Island(M)
Big Blue
Norfair-I don't like a map that makes you completely stop fighting to dodge the stage's hazard. Brinstar is just better design.

So...anything I forgot?

 

[Exia 00]

battle feild is my fav so i have no worries

 

[hizzlum]

Here's my take on the stage list.

Neutral

Battlefield-Of course.
Frigate Orpheon-The flipping doesn't do much. The only real problem I see is that on the first part of the stage, the right edges cannot be grabbed, nerfing tether recoveries.
Yoshi's Island(B)-The middle platform's tilting is cool. The fact that there are sides makes Lucario, Mario, and other wall-grabbers have slightly better recoveries from spikes here, favoring them a little.
Lylat Cruise-The tilting stops projectiles from dominating.
Smashville-FD except better.
Delfino Plaza-The changing stage makes you change tactics a lot, stopping one thing from dominating. Water could be...problematic, but whatever.
Pokemon Stadium- Unlike it's ******* brother, this one's transformations are more simple and actually help balance.
Green Greens-Why not? The tree seems to bring out fruit much more, and the stages design kinda hampers camping.

Counterpick

Final Destination-I know I'm going to get a LOT of flak for this, but people with a fast, repeatable projectile dominate this map. It's size allows camping to reign, the sides nerf so many recoveries it's not even funny. it's just a horrible map.
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit
Pirate Ship-I'm still on the fence on this one. It might be that I'm just sick of the map, but the bombs are annoying, getting keelhauled is annoying, water is annoying, it's just generally annoying.
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 2-Unlike it's older brother, this one's transformation heavily prefer an air game, and treadmills suck.
Castle Siege
Pictochat
Hanenbow
Jungle Japes
Onett
Brinstar
Distant Planet-I really like this stage, and the rain hardly ever kills. The pellet projectiles are weak. The Bulborb add a nice risk/reward thing to the stage.

banned

Corneria-Chaingrab the side wall! A bit too big. The side with the laser hurts tethers a bit, too(fly into the laser).
Rainbow Road-I don't think sidescrollers should be legal. Especially ones that heavily prefer an aerial game.
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Drive
WarioWare, Inc.
New Pork City
The Summit
Skyworld-I might consider having this CP, but I'm not sure. Need more testing)
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Temple
Yoshi's Island(M)
Big Blue
Norfair-I don't like a map that makes you completely stop fighting to dodge the stage's hazard. Brinstar is just better design.

So...anything I forgot?

Green Greens is not a neutral, the bombs falling, the apples give health, FD however will always be a neutral, alhtough it helps campers it not engough to make it a counterpick. Also corneria shouldnt be a banned stage, the only problems with it in melee were the lasers that dont do much and the inifite combo with the wall with fox and falco, which is not in brawl, so corneria should be a counterpick. other wise a good list