Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Serris]

No, it doesn't. As I said, they don't want to pick Pictochat and hope that a spring eventually appears (especially since a 1/28 chance means there's good odds it will never come).

Besides, if all else fails the opponent can go to the spring on the other side and do their own stalling, or otherwise wait out the springs. They're only there for about 30 seconds, and after that there's even less odds of this lightning striking twice.

The only people who will counterpick Pictochat are people who have practiced on the stage a large amount, which means that they will know how to make good use of all 27/28 changes the stage makes. They aren't going to pick it if they can only make use of one, because if that's the case they have to rely too much on luck (which can't be depended on during serious competitions).

Your statement partially applies, because it's pretty situational. If you're a character that can stall and you're 1-on-1'ing someone who can't, you have a pretty decent advantage over them. (Especially if you main Zelda.)

And if someone knows how to use all 28 transformations (including the springs), this just adds to a list of woes their opponent has.

PictoChat for Counterpick/Banned. Doesn't really matter.

 

[AlexX]

I say it makes a better counter-pick, because if someone goes through the effort to know the best ways to use each of the 27/28 transformations, how is that any different from taking the time to know the best ways to make use of each Pokemon Stadium transformations? Or each of Castle Siege's transformations? Or for that matter, being a character with an innate advantage on a certain stage (such as having a strong airgame on Norfair)?

 

[Serris]

I say it makes a better counter-pick, because if someone goes through the effort to know the best ways to use each of the 27/28 transformations, how is that any different from taking the time to know the best ways to make use of each Pokemon Stadium transformations? Or each of Castle Siege's transformations? Or for that matter, being a character with an innate advantage on a certain stage (such as having a strong airgame on Norfair)?

Stadium, Castle Siege, and Norfair all have one thing in common: they don't allow for abuse of a flaw in the physics engine.

Still, Counterpick or Banned, that's where this stage belongs. (Because it sure as hell ain't neutral.)

 

[neo_sporin]

From sirlin.net's Playing To Win book.
I advise everyone discussing banning stuff to read this.
Dave Sirlin is exceptionally well known in the world of competitive fighting games, being a top level player at multiple games, notably Super Turbo and Alpha 2.
He's currently the man balancing the latest incarnation of SF2, the world's most successful fighting game.
I trust his credentials in regards to competitive play are obvious to everyone.



This next part I believe is pertinent in the case of Dedede's walk off chain grab.



There should be bugger all banned by this point. Especially with some of the crappy, whiny reasons i've heard so far. Stages (and items, for that matter), should ONLY be removed where they are game breaking. For them to be proven game breaking should be demonstrated in tournaments.

The random issue isn't viable - many characters have random aspects. Super Turbo has an insane amount of random factors (everything from damage of moves to dizzy factors). One of GG's most popular high level characters (Faust) is loaded with random moves.

Potential character adantages? Isn't that the ENTIRE point of counter picking? Also, if you want to ban stages to keep characters balanced, you may as well stamp 'TIERS DON'T EXIST' on your forehead. Characters will be unbalanced to a greater or lesser extent regardless of stages.

Stage hazards? All are completely avoidable. They're certainly not 'unpredictable'. Brinstar's acid raises in a pattern, and can be seen rising before it reaches the platforms.
Norfair's lava can also be seen well in advance.
Port Town's cars only come at certain points, and platforms are provided to avoid them.
Mario Circuit's cars come in a pattern, and are shown clearly on the stage's backboard.
etc etc.

Brawl is a new game. It's not melee.
We don't have an advanced metagame, a developed tournament scene, or expert players yet. We need these things before we can establish what is best for them.
Let Brawl's competitive scene advance on its own, and demonstrate clearly what needs to be banned by definite provable evidence, not theory.

If it can't be proven it needs banned, then it doesn't need banned.

I like this...can anyone say wobbling? Broken technique, wobbles perfected it, went and kicked butt, made everyone realize just how broken it was, banned the technique. Had he not done that, the wobble ban would not exist...especially if he took last repeatedly

 

[neo_sporin]

That's another unsaid reason that popped into my mind about Rumble Falls.

On Onett, it's actually pretty easy to get hit by a car if you're doing a mid-air dodge and land on the ground as it's coming toward you. Unless you're using a character with minimal/nonexistent landing lag (Samus, for example), you don't have to be an idiot to get hit by the cars.

And, like I said before, you can be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bulbin can KO you depending on your damage and which side of the stage you're on. (For example, say Mario was fighting Yoshi on Bridge of Eldin. Yoshi has 125% and Mario has 56. Both have one life left. Yoshi jumps to the left edge of the stage to avoid Mario's attack, when Bulbin shows up and KOs Yoshi. Not exactly fair.)

I would say its perfectly fair in that Mario controlled the stage better to put yoshi into the edge.
yoshi KNOWs bulbin will come eventually, and if you are over 100% there would be no reason to stand near the edge knowing he could show up with no warning.

 

[neo_sporin]

I made a post on the previous Stage Ban topic that went unanswered:

"You know I've been wondering, why are we banning stages around broken techniques when we can just ban the broken technique itself? Like, why not just ban infinities likes Falco's so that you can play on Shadow Moses without having to worry about it? I'm not saying we should ban the chaingrab on DDD altogether by the way. Just say something like "Don't use this infinitely against a wall" or something. Anything to at least tell players to fight within reason should be simple enough and thus take stages out from this rather large ban list.

It seems to me quite a few stages are banned for one or two particular reasons regarding one or two particular characters. If you just resolve this by banning what makes them broken on that stage, you should fight fairly right? Or am I missing something here?"

A lot of these proposed stage ban lists are still way too huge, it's kinda distressing really :^P Why ban a stage because of one character doing a broken technique when you can just ban the broken technique itself?

Reasons for not banning the technique itself
If pikachu can hold A and infinite someone on a wall, yes you can say ban pikachus wall infinite, but at what point is it an infinite? 50%? 100%? 998%? And if you set a 50% limit per wall combo what if he does 51?

Personally, for especially wall combos like that my opinion is for the opponent not to be dumb enough to get between a pikachu and a hard place, but thats debateable.

The only one I would ALMOST agree on is a DDD chaingrab thats difficult to get out of, and I would say cap that at 2 and solves some of the problems though obviously not all for walkoff stages.

 

[neo_sporin]

Heres an idea to prove whose the bestest of all the players, a way to take out the randomness of stages and overpowered chaingrabs, the finals of every tournament shall be determined by playing every character combination vs, on every map, so thats something like 35x35x(number of levels) and do a best of.

now we dont have to argue stage bans and tech bans

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

Heres an idea to prove whose the bestest of all the players, a way to take out the randomness of stages and overpowered chaingrabs, the finals of every tournament shall be determined by playing every character combination vs, on every map, so thats something like 35x35x(number of levels) and do a best of.

now we dont have to argue stage bans and tech bans

This is a joke, right?

 

[Vash_Ericks]

This is a joke, right?

More of sarcasm imo

 

[Kyd]

Combos against walls cant be banned without setting specifications to other combos. Ban stages that make walls unavoidable (Shadow Moses?). In all honesty, the banned list for this game is going to eexpand dramatically due to walkoffs and infinite wall combos, because some players still go by the basis of "a win is a win" and will exploit any ways of achieving such.

 

[Grunt]

FD
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island
Lylat cruise
Frigate Orpheon (maybe)
Smashville
Green greens
Jungle Japes
Pokemon Stadium 1
Hanenbow
Delphino (maybe)
a Custom stage that represents fountain of dreams.

That would be all the stages you will ever need.

 

[Kyd]

**** grunt, we should like be some forum team or some **** you keep following up everything i say(definition of a combo). LOL, im lame. thanx for agreing though at least im not the odd ball.
but seriously, at least give pkmn stadium 2 the benefit of the doubt, its not completely broken in any sense, just a little gravity screw up and slippery florr her and there but its still playable.
and custom stages bring up a good point, everyone's so worried about them they should make regulation custom stages that everyone should use in the tournament. Thats the only real way i see everyone agreeing on something, though it would take months just to make 1 regulation stage that everyone should follow..... thread worthy?

 

[Grunt]

and custom stages bring up a good point, everyone's so worried about them they should make regulation custom stages that everyone should use in the tournament. Thats the only real way i see everyone agreeing on something, though it would take months just to make 1 regulation stage that everyone should follow..... thread worthy?

Well, MLG for halo 3 utilized the forge option in a (nearly) blank map and created two of their own maps that are widely used in MLG matches.

i have a map that recreates fountain of dreams (minus the moving platforms; they sit still) that plays very well, and one that's like FD minus the height and bad lip. besieds the stupid background, they both are better than standard maps IMO.

probably wouldnt take months, since fighting games are pretty basic. you could try making a thread. if it lives and thrives, it's thread worthy, if it dies or closes, it wasn't.

about the team thing, im really just posting everywhere my input seems useful. my main goal right now is getting my post count up. some people dont take to kind to noobs on this site. ive been lurking for years, but just now made an account, so i dont want to be stereotyped and ignored due to a low status. BUT, so far nothing bad has happened. my first post had a couple positive replies, so i'm happy.

 

[Kyd]

well the team thing was a joke. And i dont care about my post count, ive been a noob forever and probably will never make MLG worthy, and i dont see too many people bashing people with low post counts unless they say something stupid(which is based on opinion).

ill keep the create stage crap alone for now, if it tickles someone's fancy they'll make a thread or just keep it going here. I honestly wich they kept FOD on Brawl, but who doesnt. I think they should have made a lot of the SSE fighting stages accessable in multiplayer mode (where you fight the two dark samuses, or the stage in the beginning with Mario vs Kirby). Those are create worthy.

anyone else (who probably wont read this post for another 4 hours, i hate insomnia) agree?

 

[Mr Mattastic]

I for one do not belive there is any neutral stages. Even Final Destination, Battlefeild and Smashville has advantages to a particualar kind of player. Personally I hate Battlefield with a passion. However the main thing I want to say is I for one vote Rumble Falls as Counterpick based on the fact that it would really be hard for campers to use it to their advantage

 

[Kyd]

well i just got done stating something similar to the first portion of that post on another thread. The problem with Rumble Falls is the death needles (which can be countered by the fact that they're always in the same spot) and wall grabs. Any character whose 1 stock up can wall grab you(if they have the ability to) until the screen comes up far enough to KO both players. Apart from that i agree with Rumble Falls making counter pick, it does stay on a fixed pattern so its no like anything is gonna be surprising in the stage.

 

[Grunt]

anyone else (who probably wont read this post for another 4 hours, i hate insomnia) agree?

i created the begining stage, but i dont remember the dark samus stage, hm...

anyway, after some more "rememberance" (no way that's a real word) ive decided to take frigate orpheon off the list. too many times ive died because of the switching. using custom stages has inclined me to remove FD because of the lip. delphino is gone due to walk offs, water, and a really bad ledge detection. now for reasons.

Custom stage that represents FD
-basic and good.

Battlefield
-basic with ledges. the same as it always was.

Yoshi's Island
-flat with one big ledge. seems auto, but maybe CP.

Lylat cruise
-the new FOD. 3 ledges and a slightly curved surface. pretty small, 4 people would be a tad hectic.

Smashville
-my fav level. a great lip, long flat surface, one platform, but it moves so it's always different, but not enough to be a "if that ledge was/wasn't there..." sort of thing.

Green greens
-on the "maybe" list. random bomb blocks suck, but they rarely happen.

Jungle Japes
-now on the "maybe" list. the left side obviously has more KO potential than the right side, due to swimming. however, the rapids combined with the players %, it may not be that big of a deal.

Pokemon Stadium 1
-changing causes your play style to shift, but poses no real hazards. it's a good stage.

Pokemon Stadium 2
-just added, definitely a "maybe". ill play around to see if the hazards are really that annoying.

Hanenbow
-big multi level stage that allows you to control the gimping level. timing your attack on a leaf could cause your opponent to miss the ledge and die. counter pick for sure.

a Custom stage that represents fountain of dreams.
-no doubt.

SUMMARY:

Custom FD-Auto
Battle field-Auto
Cruise-Auto
Smashville-Auto
custom FOD-Auto
Hanenbow-Counter pick
Pokemon Stadium 1-Counter Pick
Green Greens-Counter pick
Jungle Japes-Maybe
Pokemon stadium 2-Maybe
Mario vs Kirby stage-Auto maybe...
Yoshi's Island-CP maybe...
Everything else-Banned

 

[Kyd]

Frigate Orpheon should be counterpick. Recovering from the turn is easy because they warn you before the stage turns.

Both Brinstar & Norfair stages should be counters, the lava in Norfair can be shielded & dodged easily. Brinstar's lava isnt too hazardous either.

Jungle Japes is very manageable now. you can easily recover from the water now, but meteor KOs are much more difficult due to that.

oh yeah, and the FD Custom needs Tabuu's boss music, that should have been selectable for FD anyways because that theme owns.

 

[AlexX]

Custom FD-Auto
Battle field-Auto
Cruise-Auto
Smashville-Auto
custom FOD-Auto
Hanenbow-Counter pick
Pokemon Stadium 1-Counter Pick
Green Greens-Counter pick
Jungle Japes-Maybe
Pokemon stadium 2-Maybe
Mario vs Kirby stage-Auto maybe...
Yoshi's Island-CP maybe...
Everything else-Banned

That is one huge ban list.

Why should we auto-ban things just becase they *MIGHT* cause issues? Saying "it has a walk-off edge" or "it moves" alone shouldn't be grounds for banning, especially since for ones like say... Castle Siege and Pictochat, they're temporary. For some more examples, Rumble Falls isn't nearly as bad as everyone else makes it out to be. Halbierd deserves to be neutral since its hazards have 10 seconds of warning, and Norfair should be counter-pick since the lava is easy to avoid/shield and promotes air combat.

I think it'd be a lot better to just ban obvious ones like Warioware and New Pork City, then see if walls and walk-offs are truly so game-breaking that they constitute a ban by themselves. Premature bans prevent (or at least heavily delay) ways of escape from being discovered (for example, for how long did we think Dedede's chaingrab was inescapable?), not to mention it's much harder to get a stage unbanned than it is to ban it.

 

[Kyd]

well i said eventually, in all honesty i only have a small amount or banned stages for my tourneys, maybe up to 8 tops.

 

[Grunt]

That is one huge ban list.

Why should we auto-ban things just becase they *MIGHT* cause issues? Saying "it has a walk-off edge" or "it moves" alone shouldn't be grounds for banning, especially since for ones like say... Castle Siege and Pictochat, they're temporary. For some more examples, Rumble Falls isn't nearly as bad as everyone else makes it out to be. Halbierd deserves to be neutral since its hazards have 10 seconds of warning, and Norfair should be counter-pick since the lava is easy to avoid/shield and promotes air combat.

I think it'd be a lot better to just ban obvious ones like Warioware and New Pork City, then see if walls and walk-offs are truly so game-breaking that they constitute a ban by themselves. Premature bans prevent (or at least heavily delay) ways of escape from being discovered (for example, for how long did we think Dedede's chaingrab was inescapable?), not to mention it's much harder to get a stage unbanned than it is to ban it.

i dont know about you, but Halberd has this way of making me dodge a hazard just so my opponent can easily attack me.

i forgot brinstar was in this game for a moment :O that should be in.

i have a severe hatred for water and run off stages. my hatred for runoff stages has nothing to do with chain grabs. the fact that your opponent cant die from falling and that a simple attack can kill at 0% because i was too far to one side irritates me to no end.

Water was another trick (like tripping) to make brawl a more recreational game, and less competitive. i just spiked you to your doom, but OH WAIT! you're alive because of water... :\
not my favorite, so again, IMO all runoff and water levels should be banned.

Ok, i now have my wii on so i can look at all the levels (i was going off memory before).

Battlefield-Auto
FD-Auto
Delphino-No
Mansion-No
Kingdom-No
Mario Circut-No
Falls-No
Eldin-maybe (on verge of a no)
Pirate Ship-No
Norfair-CP(forgot it was there.)
Frigate orpheon-Maybe (if you want it so badly XD)
Yoshi's Island-Auto/CP
Haleberd-Maybe (see Eldin)
Cruise-Auto
Pokemon Stadium 2-Maybe
Spear Pillar-AUTO!...Not.
Aero Drive-Maybe, been a while since ive played this one.
Castle Seige-Maybe, this level is pretty weird.
WarioWare-No
Distant Planet-No
75m-No
Mario Bros-No
Flat Zone 2-No
PictoChat-No
Shadow Moses Island-No
Temple-No
Yoshi's Island(Melee)-Maybe (verge of CP)
Jungle Japes-CP
Onett-No
Green Greens-CP
Rainbow Cruise-Maybe
Corneria-Maybe
Big Blue-No
Brinstar-CP
Pokemon stadium 1-CP
Custom FOD-Auto/CP
Custom FD-Auto/CP

 

[Kyd]

Battlefield-Auto
FD-Auto
Delphino-No
Mansion-No
Kingdom-No
Mario Circut-No
Falls-No
Eldin-maybe (on verge of a no)
Pirate Ship-No
Norfair-CP(forgot it was there.)
Frigate orpheon-Maybe (if you want it so badly XD)
Yoshi's Island-Auto/CP
Haleberd-Maybe (see Eldin)
Cruise-Auto
Pokemon Stadium 2-Maybe
Spear Pillar-AUTO!...Not.
Aero Drive-Maybe, been a while since ive played this one.
Castle Seige-Maybe, this level is pretty weird.
WarioWare-No
Distant Planet-No
75m-No
Mario Bros-No
Flat Zone 2-No
PictoChat-No
Shadow Moses Island-No
Temple-No
Yoshi's Island(Melee)-Maybe (verge of CP)
Jungle Japes-CP
Onett-No
Green Greens-CP
Rainbow Cruise-Maybe
Corneria-Maybe
Big Blue-No
Brinstar-CP
Pokemon stadium 1-CP
Custom FOD-Auto/CP
Custom FD-Auto/CP

Delfino and Mansion should be counterpicks.... and what do you have against Mansion? No water or walkoff... Delfino isnt walkoff the entire time, nore is it water the entire time. It should stay counterpick. Pirate Ship should stay Counter becuase not all characters have Meteors, so it would be like choosing a stage with closer walls for those with crappy recovery and good knockback hits. Halberd does need to stay counter, and Eldin is debateable due to the easy cheap KOs you get for being to far away (Dedede inhale and spit out of the stage is wrong, and his chaingrab is worse). Pictochat's hazards are minor, and should not be banned by any means. It actually comes close to neutral but some of the platforms that appear do interfere.

Yoshi's Island and Distant Planet would be the first to be banned as far as walkoffs are concerned, because the uphill makes it easier to chaingrab.

 

[Zeonom]

What´s the matter with pirate ship? ^^ i dont have the game but i saw many videos of fights on pirate ship and i dont see any hazards o.O am i blind?

 

[Grunt]

Delfino and Mansion should be counterpicks.... and what do you have against Mansion? No water or walkoff... Delfino isnt walkoff the entire time, nore is it water the entire time. It should stay counterpick. Pirate Ship should stay Counter becuase not all characters have Meteors, so it would be like choosing a stage with closer walls for those with crappy recovery and good knockback hits. Halberd does need to stay counter, and Eldin is debateable due to the easy cheap KOs you get for being to far away (Dedede inhale and spit out of the stage is wrong, and his chaingrab is worse). Pictochat's hazards are minor, and should not be banned by any means. It actually comes close to neutral but some of the platforms that appear do interfere.

Yoshi's Island and Distant Planet would be the first to be banned as far as walkoffs are concerned, because the uphill makes it easier to chaingrab.

Isn't Mansion just a giant box? >.> i haven't played it a while, but iirc that would be why.

Delphino, i can see working, just not my favorite. same with Halberd

Pirate ship is a no still. Have you ever been Keelhauled?

Eldin is no.

I would say that spikes covering the whole stage is pretty major hazard for picto chat. and the fireballs are pretty annoying.

 

[LoyalSoldier]

I should remind everyone that just because you don't like a stage doesn't mean it should be banned or counter picked. Only if there is a legitimate reason such as an exploit or a character having an insanely good advantage on it should it be put in those categories.

I have seen people try to ban and CP too many stages that are actually rather good for tourneys.

 

[AlexX]

i dont know about you, but Halberd has this way of making me dodge a hazard just so my opponent can easily attack me.

Well, it's never been much of an issue for me, and my characters (Ike+Olimar) don't exactly have the most notable movement ability...

i have a severe hatred for water and run off stages. my hatred for runoff stages has nothing to do with chain grabs. the fact that your opponent cant die from falling and that a simple attack can kill at 0% because i was too far to one side irritates me to no end.

If you're dying at 0%, you're standing WAY too close to the edge (since even the best KO moves shouldn't be sending you that far just yet). If your opponent camps by the edge to wait for you to approach, smack THEM into the blast zone.

Water was another trick (like tripping) to make brawl a more recreational game, and less competitive. i just spiked you to your doom, but OH WAIT! you're alive because of water... :\

You can spike people who are in the water to death since they can't do anything but affect what general direction they float in for a couple seconds. Unless you just ignore them because they're in the water, it shouldn't be an issue. Especially in Jungle Japes, where the water is moving so fast it's incredibly difficult to get out of the water before you hit the blast zone.

Isn't Mansion just a giant box? >.> i haven't played it a while, but iirc that would be why.

Not really. Besides, even the weakest characters can reduce the stage to rubble with ease and turn it into a Final Destination.

 

[Mic_128]

An arguement for PictoChat getting banned (or at least counterpick) is a technique I discovered myself: Spring stalling. (To see this in action, create a stage with an all-spring floor and test the examples below for yourself.)

Certain characters can infinitely repeat a move on a spring and continuously damage somebody. Marth and Ike spring stall by using their Counter repeatedly. This would make it basically impossible for someone to hit them, because they're countering so fast.

Zelda can repeatedly stall with Nayru's Love, neutralizing projectiles' effectiveness on her. She can also use Din's Fire to have four fireballs out at once while spring stalling (with varying distance).

PICTOCHAT HAS SPRINGS.

Sure, it's a one-in-twenty-eight chance, but do you really want to get mauled just because a spring showed up?

You could just, you know, stand there and let them do their springing for the 20-30 secs it's there and then hammer them when it vanishes. It's not permanent, and to be honest, doesn't seem at all ground breaking. It might, but until people somehow dominate by standing in the one spot, I'll disagree.

 

[Florida]

What´s the matter with pirate ship? ^^ i dont have the game but i saw many videos of fights on pirate ship and i dont see any hazards o.O am i blind?

Yes. Yes, you are.

 

[Roxaslawliet]

List of Neutral Stages:
(all of these stages are set to random)
Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Yoshi's Island (brawl)
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium (melee)
Battleship Halberd

List of Counter Pick Stages:
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Frigate Orpheon
Distant Planet
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar

List of Banned Stages:
Mushroomy Kingdom (if you get the underground you die from one of diddy's up grabs
Rumble Falls (stages is just unfair for slower characters)
Norfair (Speed wins here from what I have noticed)
Spear Pillar (This stage is pretty god awful with its hazards and flipping and ugh)
Port Town Aero Dive (a car can kill jigs at like 35%)
Castle Siege (this one is questionable for a counter pick)
WarioWare (your opponenet getting to be invincible while you aren't)
New Pork City (stalls)
Summit (characters with a good set of aerials will win)
Skyworld (anyone main ike and have problems?)
75m (stalls)
Mario Bros. (the unfair projectiles make this stage unfun imo)
FlatZone 2 ( -_-)
Green Hill Zone ( this one is also questionable)
Hyrule Temple (stalls)
Yoshi Island (melee) (Toon just dominates with stalls here)
Jungle Japes (still awful)
Onett (again...still awful)
Coneria (Lucas is so cheap here ><)
Green Greens (do I need a reason)
Big Blue (WHY)

 

[AlexX]

Rumble Falls (stages is just unfair for slower characters)

I play Ike and Olimar and have no issues keeping up with it, so I disagree here.

Norfair (Speed wins here from what I have noticed)

How so? This is the first time I've ever seen this argument (unless you mean you have to be first to the capsule, in which case, I'll point out that you can dodge or shield the lava wave with ease).

Castle Siege (this one is questionable for a counter pick)

I actually think this one is neutral, but I can see why someone would call it a CP. However, I do not see how its issues constitute a ban (aside from the "it has a walk-off" argument, but I really don't think that alone should be grounds for banning).

Green Hill Zone ( this one is also questionable)

Tough call, but I personally think it's a counter-pick. It has walk-offs, but as stated before, I don't believe they should be the sole grounds for a ban. Especially since they haven't been proven to be game-breaking just yet.

Yoshi Island (melee) (Toon just dominates with stalls here)

How so? The stage doesn't really have the "circle" that the big stages are banned for having.

Jungle Japes (still awful)

How so?

Onett (again...still awful)

How so?

Coneria (Lucas is so cheap here ><)

I don't see how this is any worse than it was in Melee. If anything it should be better now that the arwings don't kill nearly as easily as they used to. I also fail to see how Lucas is so cheap here. I use him once in a while, and I didn't notice any particular advantage for him here compared to most other stages.

Green Greens (do I need a reason)

One would be nice, yes.

 

[Xiivi]

These are the neutral stages I've been using at my tournaments:
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Story
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
These are ordered by exactly how neutral I believe they are.

Interesting things of note:

There are no problems with Battlefield/Smashville, no one complains of these stages and loves them.

Yoshi's Story is generally fine with exception of Ness players always banning it (poor, poor Ness) not a big deal.

FD is fine, but I see people ban it based on their recovery every now and then, but no problem really.
Delfino Plaza, almost no one has problems with this stage. The only time I see it banned is when people are unfamiliar with it.

Lylat Cruise, I see the majority of players always waste their ban on this, and it really angers me. I've noticed this turns into a "I'll ask my opponent what they want to ban that way they say their choice first. If they don't pick Lylat Cruise I'll ban it, but if they ban it then I can use my ban on something else!" This is really dumb, I have no problems with the stage, but everyone else seems to and it's become a 'who's going to use their ban on it' game.

Pokemon Stadium was neutral, however has since been removed with no complaints. The reason for moving it to counterpick? It simply stalls matches far too much. Due to just how terrible the windmill stage has become, people simply camp on either side until the transformation goes away, much like they already do for the rock and fire transformations. This means that 3/4 of the transformations result in both players hiding on there side of the stage with maybe one of them throwing projectiles if they can. Nothing gets done. When they do fight it'll become a techfest on the windmill, or the normal silly things that happen on the rock/fire transformations. Basically it's become a stage where Snake can easily take advantage of all of this as well as other characters able to control the transformations with projectiles and force the opponent to approach. And due to the positioning during these transformations, the approacher will always take more damage than the defender. Very, very bad.

Halbred has been the only other stage considered for neutral.

 

[Roxaslawliet]

AlexX-

These are things I have notcied through my gameplay.

rumble falls, in terms of speed. it's much like icicle mountain, gameplay and stradegy-wise. it's not always keeping up with the stage, but keeping up with the faster character.

Norfair, for me anyway, ends up being a stall map where I spam projectiles, more than usual and get like 4 real hits for the kills. it's not the dodging the lava, it's once you are in the capsule thing dodging attacks in it. I've seen about 60-70% occur in the capsule. (this person was me dealing the damage)

The left side at the beggining of the stage is pretty small and you can get some cheap kills, so starting on the right gives you an advantage. and I have been magically saved by the stage change (which isn't a bad thing but something to point out), the statues in the middle part can really screw over some characters (olimar, toon snake to name a couple)

I agree with you on green hill zone, nothing real ground breaking, but it is obnoxious to play imo and I find marth to be pretty cheap on it.

I played on yoshi's island against my friends diddy and I was all over the place, with Dair sliding and launching projectiles and nairs it becomes annoying to hit toon.

Jungle japes has stall issues, people with projectiles can get 20-30% dmg before there opponent even gets a hit.

Onett's sides kill me at 60 -_-'

I wish I could recorded my matches and posted them, but again this is all from my personal gameplay, I've seen lucas kill with any of his smashes at 50 percent on this stage. maybe a counterpick, I don't know only time will tell.

Again personal experience with people stalling and waiting for bombs to show up coupled with short sides.

These are just my thoughts.

I agree with XiiVi on his stage picks as well. Llyat cruise is fine. I will have more info on this stuff hopefully next week.

Thanks for your reply AlexX

 

[Ban3]

I play Ike and Olimar and have no issues keeping up with it, so I disagree here.

not only is the moving stage a problem, the spikes are also hazardous

 

[Roxaslawliet]

aw yes, those lovely spikes

Ike u-b's to get up

spikes

dead at 70

 

[Zetsuei]

For a serious tournament or duel, just play on Final D or a custom stage that is similar.

Just use any other stages for fun matches.

It's that simple.

 

[Roxaslawliet]

-_- that's boring...

I like to play on more than one stage at a tournament.

 

[AlexX]

For a serious tournament or duel, just play on Final D or a custom stage that is similar.

Just use any other stages for fun matches.

It's that simple.

...What?

Why should Final Destination should it be the only one to play on? It's not the most fair one... I don't know what causes that common misconception, but projectile-users have an innate advantage since there's no platforms to avoid them from and the ledges give some recoveries a disadvantage. If you want to say "ban all but one stage", there's better stages to argue it with.

Besides, if stages don't interfere with gameplay at all, why should they be banned just because they aren't Final Destination? Why ban Smashville when it's Final Destination with a platform and better edges? Why ban Battlefield when it's Final Destination with three platforms and better edges? Why ban Lylat Cruise when it's basically Battlefield with better music?

rumble falls, in terms of speed. it's much like icicle mountain, gameplay and stradegy-wise. it's not always keeping up with the stage, but keeping up with the faster character.

Why does everyone insist that Rumble Falls is Icicle Mountain 2.0 just because it moves?

In Icicle Mountain, you were better off running and letting the stage kill the enemy. That doesn't happen at Rumble Falls because it only moves in one direction at a reasonable speed. Try to wait for the stage to kill the enemy and you'll find yourself eating a good amount of attacks from the opponent since they won't have any issues keeping up with the stage. It does speed up once in a while, but it gives you 7 seconds warning before it does. And as stated before, I play Ike and Olimar, and if I can keep up with the stage just fine while fighting, the other characters should be fine, too.

Norfair, for me anyway, ends up being a stall map where I spam projectiles, more than usual and get like 4 real hits for the kills. it's not the dodging the lava, it's once you are in the capsule thing dodging attacks in it. I've seen about 60-70% occur in the capsule. (this person was me dealing the damage)

Then don't go into the capsule. As stated before, you can just shield or dodge the lava wave, so the capsule is hardly needed. I also don't see how a stage that promotes air combat is such a stall map.

The left side at the beggining of the stage is pretty small and you can get some cheap kills, so starting on the right gives you an advantage. and I have been magically saved by the stage change (which isn't a bad thing but something to point out), the statues in the middle part can really screw over some characters (olimar, toon snake to name a couple)

As Olimar, the statues have never been an issue for me. Granted, I don't projectile spam, but if I really wanted to it only takes a couple down smashes for me to crush them. My friends who like to spam projectiles (with characters like Samus and Pit) don't seem to find the statues an issue, either.

I also don't see how the left side at the start of the stage gives any cheap kills... If you mean the ledge is annoying, I'll admit to that, but Final Destination's ledges are the same and it's neutral.

I agree with you on green hill zone, nothing real ground breaking, but it is obnoxious to play imo and I find marth to be pretty cheap on it.

Marth is estimated to be a top-tier character. He's going to feel pretty cheap on just about any stage.

I played on yoshi's island against my friends diddy and I was all over the place, with Dair sliding and launching projectiles and nairs it becomes annoying to hit toon.

I don't suppose I can comment too much either way since I rarily play this stage... I'll come back once I've played it a bit more.

Jungle japes has stall issues, people with projectiles can get 20-30% dmg before there opponent even gets a hit.

How does it have stall issues? If they camp too much on one edge, there's no "circle" for them to run, which means they'll have to face you if they want to run to the other side. I can see a few problems to prevent it from being a neutral stage, but how does it constitute a ban?

Onett's sides kill me at 60 -_-'

By your opponent or the cars? Because hanging out too close to the edge of any stage means you're going to die at relatively earlier times than normal, especially if your opponent hits hard (like Ike or Ganondorf). Stay closer to the center and you'll be fine.

I wish I could recorded my matches and posted them, but again this is all from my personal gameplay, I've seen lucas kill with any of his smashes at 50 percent on this stage. maybe a counterpick, I don't know only time will tell.

The only time I've ever been able to kill with Lucas on Corneria at that low of a % is with a full-charged upsmash, which I don't get to pull off very often.

Again personal experience with people stalling and waiting for bombs to show up coupled with short sides.

Then why not just go after them? There's no circle they can run in, so what stops you from chasing them and then attacking them if they try to run to the other side?

 

[Lucario2k8]

hyrule and new pork are the only ones i deem completly out of the picture.maybe 75m aswell

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Corneria should be banned...there are several glitches (rare but possable) such as an infinate grab glitch.
i think stages w/ walk off edges(MK, f-8 circut, ect.), glitches, and unfair advantages should be banned...

like on shadow moses island, the walls make it depressingly hard to kill someone if you have weak up attacks (sonic)

 

[Mic_128]

Corneria should be banned...there are several glitches (rare but possable) such as an infinate grab glitch.

Corneria also had a rare but posible glitch where you fall through the stage, same with pokemon stadium and Pokefloats and all were fine.

i think stages w/ walk off edges(MK, f-8 circut, ect.), glitches, and unfair advantages should be banned...

and walk off stages should be banned...why? fox isn't deadly anymore and Dedede' only a real danger in that situation to a small number of the cast.