Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Sinz]

Besides, if it were a counter-pick, who would pick it? With the hazards being as easy as heck to avoid, the layout is simple and doesn't particularly favor anyone.

Snake. Halberd is a pressure stage which just make Snake SOOOOO busted. Halberd is one of Snake's top stages. If it were on random, I think I would like. Kill myself, out of happiness.

 

[AlexX]

Snake. Halberd is a pressure stage which just make Snake SOOOOO busted. Halberd is one of Snake's top stages. If it were on random, I think I would like. Kill myself, out of happiness.

But the same applies to any other flat stage like Final Destination, doesn't it?

 

[RPGsFTW]

Quick thing that I'd like to say about the Halberd. The bottom of the stage is pass through-able from the bottom going up, which could possibly count as a slight benefit towards characters with multiple jumps such as Meta Knight. He could grab the edge, drop down under the middle where an enemy is standing, and up-B attack them, all while recovering safely.

Another thing that isn't character specific is that it's useful (though not necessarily) to grab an opponent (while you have a higher stock) and leave them in your grab until the laser hits both of you, possibly killing you, but also the same goes for the opponent, who should have a stock less than you.

Also here is what our tournaments use for a stage list:
http://www.vegassmash.com/StageSelect.png
Important to note is that Mario Kart/Circuit and Bridge of Eldin are now banned on that list for obvious reasons.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So I'm not the only person in the world who thinks Pictochat would be a good neutral. I'm really baffled at why the Summit is in a lower group than Spear Pillar though.

Anyway, about the liberal list versus what's legitimate in debates, I was under the impression that the purpose of the discussions here was to make the more universal rules as posted in that list. If the universal rules that are posted as the standard are necessarily the most liberal, shouldn't we be focusing on the most liberal views with which to construct lists here? Individual tournaments might use different rules, and there's no helping that, but I don't see how it means we should be using what were the ultimately losing arguments for melee stages when considering brawl stages given that the environment for which we want to make a list has not changed. The arguments about positional advantage on moving stages or stages with walk offs or walls might be relevant when an individual tournament is considering what to do with stages, but I think when considering this sort of list, we are best to avoid them.

I would further suggest that those arguing that moving stages etc. are non-neutral by definition are just solidly refuted by that listing. Arguing from definition requires a consensus on the definition, and that obviously doesn't exist in this case. Given that that's a common argument here, I think it needed rebuttal.

 

[AlexX]

Quick thing that I'd like to say about the Halberd. The bottom of the stage is pass through-able from the bottom going up, which could possibly count as a slight benefit towards characters with multiple jumps such as Meta Knight. He could grab the edge, drop down under the middle where an enemy is standing, and up-B attack them, all while recovering safely.

It benefits all characters with 3rd jumps that are also attacks (which is pretty much all of them but Lucario, Pit, and a few of the tether-users). For example, Ike and Fox don't have multiple jumps, but they can attack from below just fine, too.

This ignores the fact that if they're approaching from the bottom, it should be clear they intend to attack up through the floor and you should react accordingly (be it move away, shield, or whatever).

EDIT:

So I'm not the only person in the world who thinks Pictochat would be a good neutral.

I do too, but it's an uphill battle since quite a few people are adamant about making it CP or banned just because it changes every so often and a few of the changes are hazards.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I think stages banned for chain grabs should be unbanned when two characters who can't chaingrab are fighting.

...Just a thought.

I'm only biased because I loooooooveeeeeeeeeeeee shadow moses ;_;

There's much more than simply chaingrabbing that makes Shadow Moses Island a banned stage.

 

[AlexX]

Whoops! Sorry, I didn't notice this post before.

AlexX...if you're in the middle of a fight, then you're not paying as close attention to the background. Neurtal is exactly what 1 winged angel posted above me, where there is no background effects like this, no matter how insignificant you may think they are. Eventually you will get hit by one of the background things on the Halberd and you will then agree with me that the Halberd should be a counter-pick. You will not avoid them every time. Though yes I agree with you that if you get hit, you totally deserve it.

If you're focusing on a fight, your attention should be on your opponent and your surroundings, which includes the background. Saying I'm garunteed to be hit by the stage eventually is a huge exaggeration, especially considering all the warning you're given (heck, you'd have to be blind not to notice the lazer homing in on you). I've never been hit by them once, and considering how easy they are to take notice of, I wouldn't be surprised if I never did. And this ignores the fact they can't kill you until you're in the higher percentages (or more... I play Ike, after all).

I admit this would be a lot different if we were talking about say... Port Town Aero Drive, as the hazards there are fast, hard to keep track of, and kill easily. However, we're talking about Halberd, a stage which might as well not even have hazards considering how predictable they are. To be hit by them would require a mistake on my part, and to be frank, blaming a stage for a mistake that I made is dumb.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

However, we're talking about Halberd, a stage which might as well not even have hazards considering how predictable they are. To be hit by them would require a mistake on my part, and to be frank, blaming a stage for a mistake that I made is dumb.

I personally have a very hard time dodging the claw because it's so erratic. Bombs and laser are extremely easy.

 

[phantomphungus]

Norfair: There's really no warning when the lava comes, which gives slight, random advantages to players that just happen to be on the right part of the stage. I've also noticed that the capsule doesn't allows allow anybody inside.

This has no doubt been pointed out before me (I haven't read all of the comments), but... You idiot. It allows people inside. You just have to attack the walls and they will open. Did you think that you would just walk inside? No. You have to attack them, just like you did to open doors in Metroid. It gives a little nastalgia to old school metroid fanboys and girls.

 

[Sliq]

Sorry Slig, but you're wrong here. Neutral stages are ones that are relatively flat, and that don't move. Lylat Cruise is relatively flat, so is Yoshi's Story(Brawl). That would also mean that no stages are neutral, because Snake can move his mines and C-4 on Smashville. Hmmm...a neutral stage does not mean that all players are on equal terms, just equal ground.

The definition of a neutral stage is a stage that is, you guessed it: neutral! That means that the terrain is relatively flat, and platforms and whatnot aren't tilted etc. A stage where both players are on more or less, even grounds. The stage generally doesn't move either. Halberd is the one exception to this, but is a counter-pick in my opinion because of certain background things that attack you. So then, the neutral stages I think should be:

FD
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Stages like that. There could be one or two more, but I'm too lazy to list them right now. A counter-pick is a stage where one can get an advantage on the other. Stages that are good counter picks might include:

Halberd
Luigi's Mansion
Rainbow Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Norfair

Now for the banned ones. Banned stages are banned for specific reasons. Stages that I think should be banned would include ones like this:

Spear Pillar
Warioware-Why? Because there are background distractions and if you follow directions you can get added effects, such as invincibility. Not cool.
Skyworld-The platforms break, limiting some people's recovery to utterly useless.
Shadow Moses Island-The walls are ridiculous. They give Dedede anything he wants with a billion different infinites. Falco's chain-grab, anyone's chain-grab really. You get the point.
Bridge of Eldin-Walk off blastzones.
Mario Kart Circuit-Same thing as the Bridge of Eldin.

You guys should first debate on banned stages and then sort everything else out. Once you have a narrowed down list, everything is easier. There are plenty of reasons why a stage should be banned, like some I just listed. Walk off blastzones (with the exception of Castle Siege), a lot from background distractions and things that attack you on the stage, infinites, killing all forms of recovery, etc.

You're ********. LYLAT TILTS. And when it tilts, it is UNEVEN. And if you happen to play a character that NEEDS atuo-canceling to COMPETE, let alone not get completely wrecked, your character becomes inherently worse just because of the stage.

Yoshi's Island is definatelty not flat, and causes the same problem. Seriously,did you just ignore my post? If it disrupts auto-canceling, it isn't neutral. It inherently gives characters with no lag an even BIGGER advantage over characters that require auto-canceling, when a neutral is supposed to be EVEN, not greatly in favor of already good characters.

Please explain to me how it handicaps those characters. I main Ike and actually find myself at an advantage on Lylat Cruise because the Ragnell can attack through the platforms the opponent can stand on without making me have to jump, and have never found the tilt to affect me at all, let alone negatively. As Lucas I haven't noticed anything work for or against me on that stage, either.

And how are Wolf and Pikachu "worse" characters? Last I checked, they were pretty good ones.

With 10 seconds of clear warning, you'll only get hit by them if you aren't paying attention, and if that happens you deserve to take the hit (and feel free to hold me to that, too).

Besides, if it were a counter-pick, who would pick it? With the hazards being as easy as heck to avoid, the layout is simple and doesn't particularly favor anyone.

Nothing personal, but if you aren't auto-canceling fairs and bairs with Ike, you're probably really bad.

Wolf and Pikachu are good, but not nearly as good as other characters. Plus, they were examples. You can't auto cancel Wolf's fair or dair on Lylat or YI all the time.

Furthermore, I want you to explain to me how taking an auto-canceled aerial, with no landing lag, ISN'T disadvantageous when all of a sudden you have roughly half a second lag from doing a move because the ground is uneven. THAT is how it makes them worse. Their moves become near useless.

Seriously, putting Lylat and YI on random is like putting Rainbow Cruise on Random in Melee. It Only Benefits the best characters (Fox, Falco) and ruins a lot of other ones (Cpt. Falcon, Ice Climbers). Seriously. It is the EXACT same scenario.

 

[Sliq]

Double Post FTW.

 

[AlexX]

Nothing personal, but if you aren't auto-canceling fairs and bairs with Ike, you're probably really bad.

How do you know I don't? Maybe I do and just don't find it all that significant a difference. I'll admit it might be due to the fact my friends aren't upper-level players, but it's still better than facing level 9 CPUs.

Wolf and Pikachu are good, but not nearly as good as other characters. Plus, they were examples. You can't auto cancel Wolf's fair or dair on Lylat or YI all the time.

Your argument is that it benefits the best and harms the worst. Wolf and Pikachu are strong contenders for the upper side of the tierlist, so they don't help your argument.

Furthermore, I want you to explain to me how taking an auto-canceled aerial, with no landing lag, ISN'T disadvantageous when all of a sudden you have roughly half a second lag from doing a move because the ground is uneven. THAT is how it makes them worse. Their moves become near useless.

That's a gross exaggeration. Saying a character's moveset becomes near-useless on a stage is basically saying that playing there is an automatic loss, yet I have no problem winning there consistanly.

I suppose my personal experience isn't the strongest argument to make, but since you're the one who wants to make it counterpick, the burden of proof should be on you. Please provide us with videos or something demonstrating how big of an issue it is. Don't try to say the burden of proof is on me, however, because a stage shouldn't be assumed to be unfair unless proven otherwise. That would be like saying a person is guilty of a crime based on theory with no actual evidence proving they did it.

Seriously, putting Lylat and YI on random is like putting Rainbow Cruise on Random in Melee.

Erm, have you checked the most recent Melee stage list?

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Wow...I have never met a bigger...fool. You are very adamant about this. Read my post again. I said that the stages are relatively flat. Of course not all the stages are completely flat. You should probably go do some research on who is 'good' and who isn't before you make certain claims too. Or maybe just play people who are better than your friends. Putting those on Random is fine. In Melee, there was FD, Yoshi's Island, Battlefield, Dreamland 64, you get the point. These stages are all completely flat, yes. Pokemon Stadium was not though, now was it? If a stage isn't completely flat, too bad so sad. Yoshi's story in Melee had a slight tilt to it on the edge, making Bowser totally broken on the edge and making it harder for Marth to KO with his F-smash. The point of this is, though, that Brawl is different than Melee. Melee had more flat stages, and in Brawl, the stages are MOSTLY flat. Get over it.

And I see absolutely no validity in comparing LC or Yoshi's Story to Rainbow Cruise, and it takes no explanation why either.

 

[Sliq]

Your argument is that it benefits the best and harms the worst. Wolf and Pikachu are strong contenders for the upper side of the tierlist, so they don't help your argument.

So what? They are High Tier, not God Tier. Last time I checked, Falcon was high tier in Melee. Doesn't mean Rainbow Cruise was even for him and Fox.

That's a gross exaggeration. Saying a character's moveset becomes near-useless on a stage is basically saying that playing there is an automatic loss, yet I have no problem winning there consistanly.

Ganondorf. GG NO RE.

And I doubt you win constantly with Ganondorf.

Erm, have you checked the most recent Melee stage list?

I am not following. Yes. I know exactly what is neutral and what is counter pick. Some stages very.

Well, since the burdens on me, it won't be too hard. I'll just have to tape a match of me on Lylat, show me NOT auto canceling moves, and thus getting punished, and put them up. Shouldn't take too long.

 

[Sliq]

Wow...I have never met a bigger...fool. You are very adamant about this. Read my post again. I said that the stages are relatively flat.

And this relativity is ALL IT TAKES to ruin auto-cancels.

Furthermore, you're ********.

You should probably go do some research on who is 'good' and who isn't before you make certain claims too.

I don't even know what this means. I know who is and isn't good. Cpt. Falcon was good in Melee. Fox was better. The fact that they are already at a disadvantage because the other character is better than them isn't enough, we have to throw extra hurdles in the way.

Quit being arrogant. You're a big fat nobody from the nowhere zone.

Or maybe just play people who are better than your friends.

That's funny, because last time I checked, my friend Overswarm has been winning Midwest tournaments left and right, or at least placing in the top 3. But yeah, good point. ur smart

These stages are all completely flat, yes.

You see, the problem with your argument is that l-canceling existed in Melee, so your ability to reduce lag was only hampered by different terrain, not stopped entirely.

\Pokemon Stadium was not though, now was it?

Yes. Yes it was. Only during transformations was it not. Furthermore, most people would just wait out the transformations until it reset.

Also, the whole no l-canceling thing still stands. You can't argue flat stages using Melee, since every character could l-cancel regardless of terrain, and now only a few can disregard terrain, while others have to fight around it.

Yoshi's story in Melee had a slight tilt to it on the edge, making Bowser totally broken on the edge

Nothing about Bowser was ever broken. Ever.

and making it harder for Marth to KO with his F-smash.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh man, that is funny.

The point of this is, though, that Brawl is different than Melee..

And that is why you compared them, as opposed to contrasting them?

Melee had more flat stages, and in Brawl, the stages are MOSTLY flat. Get over it.

L-canceling.

And I see absolutely no validity in comparing LC or Yoshi's Story to Rainbow Cruise, and it takes no explanation why either.

Well, you probably don't see the connection because you're stupid.

Falcon = High Tier
Fox = God Tier

Rainbow Cruise = Good for Fox
Rainbow Cruise = Not Good for Falcon

Fox > Falcon
Fox MUCH > Falcon on Rainbow Cruise

There, I spelled it out for you.

 

[AlexX]

So what? They are High Tier, not God Tier. Last time I checked, Falcon was high tier in Melee. Doesn't mean Rainbow Cruise was even for him and Fox.

What, exactly, makes Rainbow Cruise uneven between the characters? I never participated in the Melee stage discussions much since the stage legality list had already been established for some time by the time I hit the competative scene, nor did I use any of the characters you listed (I mained Link in Melee).

Ganondorf. GG NO RE.

And I doubt you win constantly with Ganondorf.

I don't main him, so I can't give an opinion either way.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Ya know...I'm just gonna stay out of this and let everyone else flame you for being an idiot. You are very arrogant and...well, you seem to think that you are the smash master, which you're not. Brawl is not Melee, and since there are very few stages that are completely flat, we must adapt to mostly flat. If you can't handle that...then maybe you should go back to Melee.

What exactly are you spelling out for me? And you still provide no evidence to your argument, other than I'm stupid. Come up with a better reason and maybe I'll believe you.

 

[clowsui]

Ya know...I'm just gonna stay out of this and let everyone else flame you for being an idiot. You are very arrogant and...well, you seem to think that you are the smash master, which you're not. Brawl is not Melee, and since there are very few stages that are completely flat, we must adapt to mostly flat. If you can't handle that...then maybe you should go back to Melee.

What exactly are you spelling out for me? And you still provide no evidence to your argument, other than I'm stupid. Come up with a better reason and maybe I'll believe you.

Sliq has been to a hella lot of major tourneys and has placed in quite a few of them (or at least got through lots of brackets; I think he was 17th at Pound 3), so I'd imagine he has the experience to back up what he says. Also you clearly haven't looked at many of Sliq's posts; his arguments are usually sprinkled with a tiny bit of sarcasm.

Second, he's been making this point and this point alone (which is pretty irrefutable): auto-cancels are impossible to maintain on tilted stages. Let's use the most common auto-cancel character: Ike. Ike has a pretty nice pressure game with that big **** sword, which has lag. But this lag can be canceled, so that makes him even better - intrinsically better...so long as the cancel can be performed consistently.

Assuming that this Ike player is a pretty cool guy (let's call him Sliq, because Sliq is a pretty cool guy and eh doesn't afraid of anything) and can autocancel perfectly on FD, let's put him on YI, or Lylat, the other two proposed neutrals. 3...2...1...GO! It's Ike vs. Falco (let's assume that the Falco is me, because I play Falco and I'll end up playing Sliq sooner or later, he's in my area). Sliq will obviously go for the shield pressure, off-stage pressure and the stopping me from shooting lasers or chaingrabbing thing, so he'll go for his lagless Fairs. Sliq is at an inherent disadvantage against me here, why? Because I can laser without worrying about him autocancelling; I can shielddrop -> fsmash (sweetspot) without having to worry about him autocancelling; I can shielddrop-> dthrow chaingrab -> spike for a free 50% without having to worry about any of this shield pressure business. Moreover, the upper platform tilts as well, so he can't just try to **** me above the regular ground. Sucks, eh?

Lylat sucks even more because at any given moment he could try to autocancel Fair and the stage might tilt. At ANY GIVEN MOMENT. Intrinsically this makes Ike worse than characters that are much better than him (Falco) and offers no advantage whatsoever to Ike; in fact, he has to suffer from heavy lag attacks that otherwise would be lagless and nice for killing blue birds. Actually, it makes him have a worse matchup against anyone else.

That's the evidence; refute?

EDIT:

Also, in case you'll try to use this Melee neutral stuff against me:

What do FD, Dreamland, Yoshi's Island, Battlefield, PS1 do to hinder Bowser against all other characters - what intrinsic characteristic does that stage possess that hurts Bowser? You can't say something that applies to only one other opponent (i.e. Falco; Falco's lasers hurt EVERYONE on FD)

 

[AlexX]

That's the evidence; refute?

You're doing exactly what Sliq was doing: using theory as reasoning for counterpicking the stage.

If you want to use actual evidence, present a video where the problem comes up and is punished in a fight frequently enough to put such characters at a significant disadvantage.

 

[clowsui]

But the thing is, we can discuss on a theoretical basis right now because we have no standard to refute; that's why this thread in this place so we can decide on stage legality until the first SBR list has been set
Thus I don't see any reason why to provide physical proof when theoretical reasoning is just as sensible at this point

 

[hizzlum]

Although lylat tilts, that really does not make it a counter pick, its a normals stage with platforms and it tilts a little, as for canceling moves on tilted ground, the cancelling only takes out little frames and wont completely change the match.

 

[clowsui]

within those small amount of frames is it not true that you can initiate a grab or low startup-lag move? moreover if those frames are removed it saves you from sacrificing defense - it's easy for you to get grabbed or smashed during that lag period

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmmm...you seem more prone to using your brain rather than sharp words clowsui. At least you provided evidence to me on what I am misjudging/seeing wrong. Thank you. Still not cleared up all that much though. Melee had stages that were neutral that certain characters did well on. Yoshi's Story=Marth wins!(not really, but you see what I mean.) Battlefield was BAD for space animals, and Dreamland 64 was good for Falco. BTW, what I meant by Marth and his fsmash is the slight curve of the ledge made it harder to connect with his fsmash when they come from below. Instead of getting hit right before they grab the ledge, the fsmash goes barely over their head and they grab the ledge. Point is, not everyone can do well on a neutral. So please, post your list of neutrals. There is still little validity in the argument if there are no other stages to use as neutrals. And don't just say one or two, it's gotta be at least 5-6. Look forward to seeing it.

 

[AlexX]

But the thing is, we can discuss on a theoretical basis right now because we have no standard to refute; that's why this thread in this place so we can decide on stage legality until the first SBR list has been set
Thus I don't see any reason why to provide physical proof when theoretical reasoning is just as sensible at this point

But the problem is that your theoredical proof isn't backed... My personal experience contradicts your claims. It may not be with upper-level players, but it's still something to take note of.

I say the burden of proof is on you because as I said, a stage should not have to prove itself to be random-worthy. Otherwise all of the stages would have to start out in CP before we can confirm that any are truly "fair" stages. Besides, assuming something is going to be game-breaking without any proof is dumb. It's a common example, but had we banned Dedede's chaingrab back when we thought it was truly inescapable by 21 members of the cast, would we have found out that it's not nearly as bad as we originally thought? Probably not, since people wouldn't bother trying to find ways out of it.

Show legitimate proof of Lylat Cruise screwing over certain characters (meaning via a video or tournament results), and then it'll be good to discuss the idea of making it a CP.

 

[Empy]

[...list]
If you disagree, let me know what with and why.

I think your Random and Strongly on Random groups should be switched, although this could've been your intention to start with. I think WarioWare should be moved all the way down to Definitely banned. Because the rewards are so random. You can get some % damage back while the other get's invincibility. Also, the judgement of who does get a reward and who doesn't is messed up sometimes.

I think Shadow Moses Island should be moved down to Shady Counterpick, because the walls and the layout with a sort of underground area makes it highly disputed and not too solid a counterpick.

 

[Sliq]

Although lylat tilts, that really does not make it a counter pick, its a normals stage with platforms and it tilts a little, as for canceling moves on tilted ground, the cancelling only takes out little frames and wont completely change the match.

Ganon's dair has about half a second of landing lag. That might seem like much, but Jigglypuff is asleep in rest for 2 seconds, so you can use that for comparosn.

Seriously, there is a HUGE difference between auto-canceled and non-auto-canceled.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmmm...still Sliq, there remains your choice of neutrals. That is, after all, what this thread is about. Although yes, I have been persuaded to consider Lylat as a CP, Yoshi's Story is still safe to me. What would you choose as your neutral stages?

 

[Sliq]

Hmmm...still Sliq, there remains your choice of neutrals. That is, after all, what this thread is about. Although yes, I have been persuaded to consider Lylat as a CP, Yoshi's Story is still safe to me. What would you choose as your neutral stages?

Battle Field, FD, and Smashville

Seeing as how people get stage bans, a smart player would ban the most disadvantageous neutral stage (unless the disadvantage is so miniscule it is negligible). And if both players ban neutrals, then you have arrived to a stage that--essentially--both players have agreed upon.

I would even go so far as to say you get 2 stage bans; 1 neutral ban, and 1 counter pick ban.

Personally, Yoshi's Island is the closest to being on my list but Lylat's tilting is so disruptive that I'm not even considering it.

The support ghosts on YI, as well as the platform tilt is all random, as far as I know, which compounds the problem. If the stuff was on a timer it would be different, but I don't think it is.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey everyone, here's my opinions below, please give your feedback:

Here's my proposal of all 41 stages listed from most to least neutral, that is, if a bunch of really good Brawl players for each main (which we're pretty sure we don't have yet) were to all do round-robins on each level, how true to the skill of the players would the results be (including ability or inability to deal with what the stage has to offer):

Strongly on Random​

01. Pictochat

Almost On Random​

10. Battleship Halberd
12. Yoshi's Island (Melee)
13. Corneria (Melee)

Solid Counter-Picks​

19. Frigate Orpheon
24. Green Greens (Melee)

Shady Counterpicks​

26. Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
29. Skyworld
31. Jungle Japes (Melee)

Should be Banned​

35. Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2

Definitely Banned​

39. The Summit

If you disagree, let me know what with and why.

First, I wanted to say that this is a really, really good list on the whole. Most my questions are within a scope of a single tier.

-I am curious why Pictochat is number 1, or on Random at all to be honest. I have zero problem with the stage until those bloody spikes come out of the ground, which always seems to ruin everything for certain characters. I've also had randomly drawn walls or obstacles help or hurt, sometimes costing a full stock.

-What's Halberd's problem? The obstacles are hilariously trivial, and I've yet to hear any valid complaint about the stage. It does have a slightly low ceiling, but no one complains about that...

-Meanwhile, why are Yoshi's Island (Melee) and Corneria considered "almost random"? They heavily favor certain characters, making them classic counter-picks in my eyes.

-Why is Frigate "solid counter-pick"? We've be debating it as Random or CP for awhile, is there a reason you placed it strongly in CP territory?

-Opposite question for Green Greens, debated as CP/Banned. Justification for elevating it to firmly CP?

-Mushroomy 1-1 should never be legal. Apart from concerns about the scrolling and walls, the ceiling height is simply unreasonable for many character match ups. It's not a question of bias or advantage, it's just as unreasonable vertically as Mario Bros. is. (In the opposite way.)

-Meanwhile, I don't see why Skyworld and Jungle Japes are questionable... They seem like classic examples of counter-pick stages to me, ones I thought would never be debated. Is there a specific problem or matchup set that you see as invalid on this stage?

-Now we're getting to trivial points on my part: I would consider Mushroomy 1-2 in the Defiantly Banned category, and Summit in the "Probably Should be Banned" category. Of stages I would like to see banned, Summit doesn't seem that awful...

Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

[AlexX]

Sliq, you still haven't provided us with proof that Lylat's tilting is a major issue. You said it was going to be easy to provide video evidence to show us just how badly it harms those characters, so please do so.

You can theorycraft all day long, but at the end of the day, all that matters is what actually happens in a fight.

EDIT: And while we're at it, why do you say FD is neutral? If tilting is truly as big an issue as you say it is, how is the fact it has those annoying lips or the fact it has no platforms make it any better?

 

[Thinkaman]

Alex, Sliq knows what he is talking about, and you don't. I don't like to be so blunt, but you have explicitly proven it at this point. You are calling for video proof of what is obvious to everyone who is actually playing the game.

While I don't agree that Lylat should be instantly disqualified from Random, and definitely not YS, the arguments Sliq is making has contributed far more to the discussion than anything you are saying demanding "non-theoretical proof".

I would even go so far as to say you get 2 stage bans; 1 neutral ban, and 1 counter pick ban.

This.

 

[AlexX]

Alex, Sliq knows what he is talking about, and you don't. I don't like to be so blunt, but you have explicitly proven it at this point. You are calling for video proof of what is obvious to everyone who is actually playing the game.

What the heck are you talking about? I HAVE been playing the game, and my main is Ike, yet the tilting has never caused any sort of significant difference in any of my fights. What's wrong with asking for proof when my experience contradicts his statements?

Besides, as I said, the burden of proof is on him. It doesn't matter if I'm saying this or someone who has 3000 posts, if you want to prove a stage is unfair, especially one as simple as Lylat Cruise, you must provide proof to show exactly how it causes problems in a battle. After all, he claims it would be easy to provide proof, so what's the big deal?

 

[Sliq]

EDIT: And while we're at it, why do you say FD is neutral? If tilting is truly as big an issue as you say it is, how is the fact it has those annoying lips or the fact it has no platforms make it any better?

Because if you aren't stupid or have some semblance of "talent" you can easily overcome somthing that NEVER CHANGES.

However, if FD would randomly TILT, causing the ledges to froe you EVEN MORE, than you might have a reasonable argument on your hands.

 

[Serris]

Because if you aren't stupid or have some semblance of "talent" you can easily overcome something that SLIGHTLY CHANGES.

Fixed.

Lylat tilts. Get over it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Right... comparing Lylat to FD makes your argument even worse, Alex. As for treating you like a scrub, I dunno what you are talking about. I am treating you like someone who is asking for proof of something obvious and self-evident, whom you are.

Edit: Again though, I personally don't think Lylat deserves being off Random for this. Going downhill can HELP cancel aerials with adjusted timing, and it is far less of a problem than some neutral stage disadvantages in Melee. Jigglypuff on Yoshi's Story anyone?

 

[AlexX]

Right... comparing Lylat to FD makes your argument even worse, Alex. As for treating you like a scrub, I dunno what you are talking about. I am treating you like someone who is asking for proof of something obvious and self-evident, whom you are.

How is comparing Lylat to FD a bad thing? Both have incredibly minor problems with the stage that could affect certain characters to a minor degree.

And again, my personal experience contradicts his arguments. If you don't think that's enough, then please tell me, why has nobody else besides you and him has ever brought it up until now? I think it's because nobody else has noticed a significant difference, because if it had more people would be popping up to agree with him (not to mention the issue wouldn't have taken until now to be brought up).

However, if I'm wrong, please show me. A video will help your case very strongly and will discredit my personal experience as an argument against his theory.

 

[Sliq]

Fixed.

Lylat tilts. Get over it.

It changes enough to demolish auto-cancels. gg no re

 

[AlexX]

It changes enough to demolish auto-cancels. gg no re

Sliq, people would agree with you more if you showed evidence you claimed would be incredibly easy to provide.

I probably sound like a broken record at this point, but I'll shut up and believe you if you do give me valid evidence.

 

[Sliq]

Sliq, people would agree with you more if you showed evidence you claimed would be incredibly easy to provide.

I probably sound like a broken record at this point, but I'll shut up and believe you if you do give me valid evidence.

Anyone who isn't ******** can just pick Ganon, go to these stages, and try to auto-cancel. It literally takes no time on their part.

However, you want me to spend time setting up my camera, recording, uploading it to youtube, labeling it, and linking to it.

Are you serious?

Hey guys, Fox's up smash kills at x %

VIDS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN

 

[AlexX]

Anyone who isn't ******** can just pick Ganon, go to these stages, and try to auto-cancel. It literally takes no time on their part.

Then why are you (and possibly Thinkaman) the only ones who are complaining about it? And why did it take until now to come up? And despite maining one of the people you listed as being negatively affected by the tilt, why has it not affected my fights?

Besides, testing it out in training mode or something does not prove that it has a significant effect on the battle. It can exist, but not affect a battle significantly enough to matter. Doing it in a CPU fight and getting punished might work, but let's keep in mind that it's easy to get punished in general as Ganondorf if you don't play him and just pick him up to test this out.