Official Stage Legality Discussion

[katanagash]

When I played at a tournament back in April, this was the list of bans/counterpicks/neutrals that we used (remember, I didn't make this list, the tournament committee did.):

Banned: (with reasons why)

Rumble Falls (it moves)
Wario Ware Inc. (random crazy s**t happens)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (beause of conveyer belts)
Shadow Moses Island (takes a long time to kill or die)
New Pork City (super huge and has the chimera)
Norfair (the lava)
Mario Circuit (because of the shy guys racing)
Summit (it moves, the fish eats people, etc.)
Pictochat (crazy things happen)
75 m (too big and because of obstacles)
Mario Bros. (hard to kill and because of enemies)
Port Town Aero Drive (because of the cars)
Pirate Ship (because of cannonballs and the lever that kills alot of people)
Spear Pillar (controls reverse sometimes and screen flips alot)
Green Hill Zone (because of the Ganon glitch)
Flat Zone 2 (ridiculously small)
Hanenbow/elecktroplankton (it's just dumb)
Yoshi's Island - Melee (because of the blocks in the middle)
Hyrule Temple (you should already know why)
Big Blue (it moves)
Jungle Japes (because of the water)
Rainbow Cruise (it moves)
Brinstar (because of the acid)

Counterpick:

Skyworld
Castle Siege
Luigi's Mansion
Pokemon Stadium
Onett
Green Greens
Halbred
Bridge of Eldin
Corneria


Neutral:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island (brawl)

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmmm...I still like Yoshi's Story. The stage's tilt isn't all that much, not as bad as LC. The most tilt it has is on the edge. I don't know...it could still be neutral. You think? Three neutrals though...that's not very much. Maybe one more at least.

 

[AlexX]

Hanenbow/elecktroplankton (it's just dumb)

...Wow, that's really their reason to ban the stage? I guess they were really desperate to ban it...

 

[x After Dawn x]

...Wow, that's really their reason to ban the stage? I guess they were really desperate to ban it...

Actually, there's a glitch that causes Sonic to suicide on the level.

 

[Thinkaman]

Havenbow and 75m have so many problems with serious play that no argument needs to be presented. If you really need the reasons why they ought to be banned listed, I would be happy to do so; however, if you need said reasons spelled out for you, I'm not sure you are in a position to engage in a "stage legality discussion".

 

[AlexX]

Havenbow and 75m have so many problems with serious play that no argument needs to be presented. If you really need the reasons why they ought to be banned listed, I would be happy to do so; however, if you need said reasons spelled out for you, I'm not sure you are in a position to engage in a "stage legality discussion".

I can understand 75m, but what's the big deal with Hanenbow?

And to save us time and show I indeed know what I'm talking about, I'll take the liberty of pointing out the most common complaints about the stage and give my counterpoints on how they aren't an issue:

1. Uneven platforms
Counterpoint: Much like Norfair, the platforms promote air combat. It's a reason to make it CP, not banned.

2. There's branch that looks like a platform but isn't
Counterpoint: This shouldn't even be an issue... if you've played on the stage even once, you'd know it's not a platform aside from when Pokemon Trainer is on the field.

3. The water isn't really water
Counterpoint: Again: if you've played on it once you'd know this... not to mention I don't see what kind of issue it makes. If anything this is a good thing since most hate water.

4. Changing platform position blocks projectiles
Counterpoint: Again, this is reason to make it a CP.

5. It's too large
Counterpoint: I play Ike and Olimar and have no issue keeping up with opponents like Pit, and they aren't exactly the most mobile of characters.

6. Tether-users are nerfed
Counterpoint: No, they aren't. Olimar's pikmin tether grabs the pointy edges of the leaves just fine.

 

[Thinkaman]

None of those are real reasons why people want the stage banned. Havenbow and 75m are off the table because the distribution and spacing of the platforms redefines the rules of the game outside the balanced norm.

Comparing Havenbow to Norfair is preposterous, even if Norfair is the closest thing to it. Havenbow is like Big Blue, Norfair, Lylat Cruise, and destroyed Bridge of Eldin thrown into a blender full of cocaine and acid. It is like Mario Bros. in that it changes gameplay so much that it in many ways no longer even resembles Smash. It isn't biased against ground combat, there IS NO ground combat! The vertical platform distribution gives an exponential advantage to faster characters, where some matchups are invalidated completely due to a loop effect. Characters with poor second jumps are also invalidated.

I played Jigglypuff in Melee and still do some in Brawl. Jiggly doesn't have an advantage on Havenbow, she INVALIDATES many other characters on the stage. Meanwhile, in Brawl most of the time I play Ganondorf. A majority of the cast can infinitely retreat from Ganondorf on Havenbow. It isn't a disadvantage, it's completely rigged, just like Hyrule Temple or New Pork City or 75m.

 

[Cat Fight]

Rumble Falls (it moves)
Wario Ware Inc. (random crazy s**t happens)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (beause of conveyer belts)
Shadow Moses Island (takes a long time to kill or die)
New Pork City (super huge and has the chimera)
Norfair (the lava)
Mario Circuit (because of the shy guys racing)
Summit (it moves, the fish eats people, etc.)
Pictochat (crazy things happen)
75 m (too big and because of obstacles)
Mario Bros. (hard to kill and because of enemies)
Port Town Aero Drive (because of the cars)
Pirate Ship (because of cannonballs and the lever that kills alot of people)
Spear Pillar (controls reverse sometimes and screen flips alot)
Green Hill Zone (because of the Ganon glitch)
Flat Zone 2 (ridiculously small)
Hanenbow/elecktroplankton (it's just dumb)
Yoshi's Island - Melee (because of the blocks in the middle)
Hyrule Temple (you should already know why)
Big Blue (it moves)
Jungle Japes (because of the water)
Rainbow Cruise (it moves)
Brinstar (because of the acid)

Counterpick:

Skyworld
Castle Siege
Luigi's Mansion
Pokemon Stadium
Onett
Green Greens
Halbred
Bridge of Eldin
Corneria

Is this a joke?

 

[AlexX]

None of those are real reasons why people want the stage banned.

Then why the hell are they the reasons people keep using to ban it in this topic? ._.

Havenbow and 75m are off the table because the distribution and spacing of the platforms redefines the rules of the game outside the balanced norm.

I fail to see how this occurs. I fight on it the same as I do on any other stage with a ton of platforms and it works out for me just fine.

Comparing Havenbow to Norfair is preposterous, even if Norfair is the closest thing to it. Havenbow is like Big Blue, Norfair, Lylat Cruise, and destroyed Bridge of Eldin thrown into a blender full of cocaine and acid.

Wait, wait, wait... You're saying Lylat Cruise is as disruptive to gameplay as Big Blue? And you think I'M the one that's insane?

It is like Mario Bros. in that it changes gameplay so much that it in many ways no longer even resembles Smash.

That's a gross exaggeration and you know it.

It isn't biased against ground combat, there IS NO ground combat!

Wrong. Although the leaves will bend, characters with disjointed hitboxes can still fight just fine on the leaves.

The vertical platform distribution gives an exponential advantage to faster characters, where some matchups are invalidated completely due to a loop effect. Characters with poor second jumps are also invalidated.

Olimar and Ike are like this, yet I can keep up with at least decently-skilled speedy characters on it just fine.

Even if you don't count my personal experience, it's not as bad as you say it is. Say your opponent is on the leaf sticking out from the ground. If you go after them, they can either go to the upper tree or the main tree (one of which would mean facing you along the way). They can't go anywhere else, and you're generally going to see where they're headed right away so that you can go after them. Characters with at least a decent airgame can probably even catch them as they move (a bit hard to say, since Olimar and Ike have pretty good airgames).

I played Jigglypuff in Melee and still do some in Brawl. Jiggly doesn't have an advantage on Havenbow, she INVALIDATES many other characters on the stage.

What do you mean by this, exactly?

 

[Johnknight1]

I shall now official give this thread the Johnknight1 "Knightly" stamp of ownage. Please watch carefully. Anyways, a lot of what I'm posting is from my previous (closed!) thread called "Stop Banning All Non-Neutral Stages!" Basically, I got pissed everyone was banning all but 5 stages. So I absolutely REFUSE to enter most, if not all tournaments that do that. I can't even play some Melee-lega stages, like Rainbow Ride or Onett. Seriously people, look at the Melee tournament legality list!

The only banned stages in Melee is the camper hellhold Princess Peach's Castle, Hyrule Temple, Brinstar Abominational Depths (it's a government conspiracy! ), Yoshi's f***ed up Island 64, super glitchy Venom, Big stupid Blue, too big and small platforms Fourside, Infinite player-raper (Glacier), and FlatZone unplayable world are banned (maybe more; Mute City is doubles-banned).

Why ban stages several stages in Brawl when they are CLEARLY better=??? Brawl has 10,000 times better stages then Melee. This is the reason I don't enter too many tournaments. There are too many banned stages. I now know where the term "5 stock, no items, Fox dittos, FD" came from. So many Final Destination exclusive players. I hate that so much. How can you play the most boring plain stage so much=??? There are several much more balanced stages, too. It's one thing to play it a lot, but I've faced a lot of people who play FD (and BF) basically exclusively.

They are missing SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many good stages. Delfino Plaza, Pirate Ship, Frigate Orpheon, Yoshi's Island (BrawlZZorZ!), Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Spear Pillar (TEH MIND GAMEZ!) Mario Circuit, Port Town Aero Dive, Castle Siege, and Smashville to name just a few.

Some fear these 'banaholics', that ban everything, and go with it. People bannning everything is annoying. Banning some stages is one thing. But banning stages for having f***ing karts? WTF, mate? Use the Ness-Saffron City ruling as needed, and get over it.

If we can have Rainbow Ride (Cruise), Mushroom Kingdom (Melee), Mushroom Kingdom II, Jungle Japes, Brinstar (Melee), Yoshi's Island (Melee), Green Greens, Corneria, Poké Floats, Onett, Mute City, and Congo Jungle (64) be legal in Melee, why can't we have some stage that is not perfectly flat and is a camper-lover stage be legal=??? Exactly.

The list (in my opinion) should look like this:

Neutral:

-Final Destination (least nuetral on this list. If you doubt it, play Ganondorf or Bowser against ROB).
-Battlefield
-Pirate Ship
-Norfair (deal with the lava. If you can't dodge it, you suck).
-Frigate Orpheon (get over flipping issues. Learn the stage already).
-Yoshi's Island (Melee)
-The Halberd
-Lylat Cruise
-Pokémon Stadium (Melee)
-Pokémon Stadium 2
-Castle Siege
-Smashville
-PictoChat

Counter-Pick:

-Delfino Plaza (doubles nuetral, singles counter-pick)
-Rainbow Ride (doubles nuetral, singles counter-pick)
-Luigi's Mansion (at least doubles neutral; I'm unsure if it should be singles neutral or not, so I'll leave it at a counter-pick to be safe).
-Mario Circuit
-Jungle Japes (maybe ban it for online tournaments?; I'm unsure on it's condition, really, with all these ROB and other character campers abusing this stage like a drug).
-Rumble Falls (maybe not online. I think it's at least worth a shot, since it doesn't seem too unfair).
-The Bridge of Eldin
-Brinstar
-Yoshi's Island (Melee)
-Green Greens
-Corneria
-Port Town Aero Dive (online banned possibly?)
-Onett
-The Summit (maybe online banned?)
-Skyworld
-Distant Planet (at least for doubles)
-Hanebow
-Shadow Moses Island (at least for doubles)
-Green Hill Zone (at the bare minimum, let it doubles-legal).

Banned:

-Mario Bros.
-Mushroomy Kingdom
-75 Meters
-Hyrule Temple
-Spear Pillar
-Big Blue
-New Pork City
-FlatZone 2
-Wario Ware Inc.

If more tournament stage legality lists looked more like that, I'd enter a lot more tournaments. Seeing Delfino Plaza and Rainbow Ride (Cruise) banned is some of the stupidest s*** ever. If someone told a Melee competitive veteran in Melee Rainbow Ride was a banned stage at a tournament, they'd laugh. It's propostorous. It's a Melee doubles neutral stage, to top it all off. And it only got more neutral in Brawl. Seriously, I don't get some of these stupid banning anymore. A lot of them have the stupidest reasons I've ever heard of. Unless you want all neutral stages, the most banned stages you should have is a dozen, if even that. The Back Room so far has banned only banned "officially" like half a dozen stages or so. And yet people continue banning 25 or so stages. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Why ban stages several stages in Brawl when they are CLEARLY better=??? Brawl has 10,000 times better stages then Melee.

That's a very opinionated statement...the reason why Brawl has more neutrals is due to the reason that there are more total stages to pick from, not so much that every stage in Brawl is "better."

Moreover, some stages in Brawl aren't better than Melee's stages. I could always use the classic Pokemon Stadium II (Brawl) vs. Pokemon Stadium I (Melee) example.

 

[Snail]

I shall now official give this thread the Johnknight1 "Knightly" stamp of ownage. Please watch carefully. Anyways, a lot of what I'm posting is from my previous (closed!) thread called "Stop Banning All Non-Neutral Stages!" Basically, I got pissed everyone was banning all but 5 stages. So I absolutely REFUSE to enter most, if not all tournaments that do that. I can't even play some Melee-lega stages, like Rainbow Ride or Onett. Seriously people, look at the Melee tournament legality list!

The only banned stages in Melee is the camper hellhold Princess Peach's Castle, Hyrule Temple, Brinstar Abominational Depths (it's a government conspiracy! ), Yoshi's f***ed up Island 64, super glitchy Venom, Big stupid Blue, too big and small platforms Fourside, Infinite player-raper (Glacier), and FlatZone unplayable world are banned (maybe more; Mute City is doubles-banned).

Why ban stages several stages in Brawl when they are CLEARLY better=??? Brawl has 10,000 times better stages then Melee. This is the reason I don't enter too many tournaments. There are too many banned stages. I now know where the term "5 stock, no items, Fox dittos, FD" came from. So many Final Destination exclusive players. I hate that so much. How can you play the most boring plain stage so much=??? There are several much more balanced stages, too. It's one thing to play it a lot, but I've faced a lot of people who play FD (and BF) basically exclusively.

They are missing SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many good stages. Delfino Plaza, Pirate Ship, Frigate Orpheon, Yoshi's Island (BrawlZZorZ!), Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Spear Pillar (TEH MIND GAMEZ!) Mario Circuit, Port Town Aero Dive, Castle Siege, and Smashville to name just a few.

Some fear these 'banaholics', that ban everything, and go with it. People bannning everything is annoying. Banning some stages is one thing. But banning stages for having f***ing karts? WTF, mate? Use the Ness-Saffron City ruling as needed, and get over it.

If we can have Rainbow Ride (Cruise), Mushroom Kingdom (Melee), Mushroom Kingdom II, Jungle Japes, Brinstar (Melee), Yoshi's Island (Melee), Green Greens, Corneria, Poké Floats, Onett, Mute City, and Congo Jungle (64) be legal in Melee, why can't we have some stage that is not perfectly flat and is a camper-lover stage be legal=??? Exactly.

The list (in my opinion) should look like this:

Neutral:

-Final Destination (least nuetral on this list. If you doubt it, play Ganondorf or Bowser against ROB).
-Battlefield
-Pirate Ship
-Norfair (deal with the lava. If you can't dodge it, you suck).
-Frigate Orpheon (get over flipping issues. Learn the stage already).
-Yoshi's Island (Melee)
-The Halberd
-Lylat Cruise
-Pokémon Stadium (Melee)
-Pokémon Stadium 2
-Castle Siege
-Smashville
-PictoChat

Counter-Pick:

-Delfino Plaza (doubles nuetral, singles counter-pick)
-Rainbow Ride (doubles nuetral, singles counter-pick)
-Luigi's Mansion (at least doubles neutral; I'm unsure if it should be singles neutral or not, so I'll leave it at a counter-pick to be safe).
-Mario Circuit
-Jungle Japes (maybe ban it for online tournaments?; I'm unsure on it's condition, really, with all these ROB and other character campers abusing this stage like a drug).
-Rumble Falls (maybe not online. I think it's at least worth a shot, since it doesn't seem too unfair).
-The Bridge of Eldin
-Brinstar
-Yoshi's Island (Melee)
-Green Greens
-Corneria
-Port Town Aero Dive (online banned possibly?)
-Onett
-The Summit (maybe online banned?)
-Skyworld
-Distant Planet (at least for doubles)
-Hanebow
-Shadow Moses Island (at least for doubles)
-Green Hill Zone (at the bare minimum, let it doubles-legal).

Banned:

-Mario Bros.
-Mushroomy Kingdom
-75 Meters
-Hyrule Temple
-Spear Pillar
-Big Blue
-New Pork City
-FlatZone 2
-Wario Ware Inc.

If more tournament stage legality lists looked more like that, I'd enter a lot more tournaments. Seeing Delfino Plaza and Rainbow Ride (Cruise) banned is some of the stupidest s*** ever. If someone told a Melee competitive veteran in Melee Rainbow Ride was a banned stage at a tournament, they'd laugh. It's propostorous. It's a Melee doubles neutral stage, to top it all off. And it only got more neutral in Brawl. Seriously, I don't get some of these stupid banning anymore. A lot of them have the stupidest reasons I've ever heard of. Unless you want all neutral stages, the most banned stages you should have is a dozen, if even that. The Back Room so far has banned only banned "officially" like half a dozen stages or so. And yet people continue banning 25 or so stages. Absolutely ridiculous.

Your list is about as liberal as it gets, but Norfair, Pokémon Stadium II, Pictochat and Pirate Ship as neutrals? I seriously doubt that will ever happen And if you think those stages should be neutral, what about Delfino Plaza and Luigi's Mansion? They seem a hell of a lot more "neutral" than Pokemon Stadium II to me :/

I don't think Hanenbow should be banned. It's a bit awkward and I know most people dislike it, but yeah...

 

[Deleted member]

Why ban stages several stages in Brawl when they are CLEARLY better=??? Brawl has 10,000 times better stages then Melee..

mushroomy kingdom, norfair, hanebow, spear pillar, and distant planet

hell no

The list (in my opinion) should look like this:

Neutral:

-Final Destination (least nuetral on this list. If you doubt it, play Ganondorf or Bowser against ROB).
-Battlefield
-Pirate Ship
-Norfair (deal with the lava. If you can't dodge it, you suck).
-Frigate Orpheon (get over flipping issues. Learn the stage already).
-Yoshi's Island (Melee)
-The Halberd
-Lylat Cruise
-Pokémon Stadium (Melee)
-Pokémon Stadium 2
-Castle Siege
-Smashville
-PictoChat

Counter-Pick:

-Delfino Plaza (doubles nuetral, singles counter-pick)
-Rainbow Ride (doubles nuetral, singles counter-pick)
-Luigi's Mansion (at least doubles neutral; I'm unsure if it should be singles neutral or not, so I'll leave it at a counter-pick to be safe).
-Mario Circuit
-Jungle Japes (maybe ban it for online tournaments?; I'm unsure on it's condition, really, with all these ROB and other character campers abusing this stage like a drug).
-Rumble Falls (maybe not online. I think it's at least worth a shot, since it doesn't seem too unfair).
-The Bridge of Eldin
-Brinstar
-Yoshi's Island (Melee)
-Green Greens
-Corneria
-Port Town Aero Dive (online banned possibly?)
-Onett
-The Summit (maybe online banned?)
-Skyworld
-Distant Planet (at least for doubles)
-Hanebow
-Shadow Moses Island (at least for doubles)
-Green Hill Zone (at the bare minimum, let it doubles-legal).

Banned:

-Mario Bros.
-Mushroomy Kingdom
-75 Meters
-Hyrule Temple
-Spear Pillar
-Big Blue
-New Pork City
-FlatZone 2
-Wario Ware Inc.

If more tournament stage legality lists looked more like that, I'd enter a lot more tournaments. Seeing Delfino Plaza and Rainbow Ride (Cruise) banned is some of the stupidest s*** ever. If someone told a Melee competitive veteran in Melee Rainbow Ride was a banned stage at a tournament, they'd laugh. It's propostorous. It's a Melee doubles neutral stage, to top it all off. And it only got more neutral in Brawl. Seriously, I don't get some of these stupid banning anymore. A lot of them have the stupidest reasons I've ever heard of. Unless you want all neutral stages, the most banned stages you should have is a dozen, if even that. The Back Room so far has banned only banned "officially" like half a dozen stages or so. And yet people continue banning 25 or so stages. Absolutely ridiculous.

um...no?

the whole point of banning stages is to make a default fighting experience

you dont see lava flooding the background of street fighter 3 or dead or alive do you?

neutral stages are meant to have NO outside disruptions so then the true metagame of brawl can be tested just like in every other fighting game

 

[Thinkaman]

Then why the hell are they the reasons people keep using to ban it in this topic? ._.

Not my problem. Tons of people say the "dungeon" was the reason Hyrule Temple is banned, when in reality the problem is the loop.

I fail to see how this occurs. I fight on it the same as I do on any other stage with a ton of platforms and it works out for me just fine.

If you are playing the same on Havenbow as Final Destination, ur doin' it wrong.

Wait, wait, wait... You're saying Lylat Cruise is as disruptive to gameplay as Big Blue? And you think I'M the one that's insane?

...No, I never said that anywhere at all. I said Havenbow has the worst aspects of all those stages, including ones that are already banned, but made worse. This includes Lylat's tilting.

That's a gross exaggeration and you know it.

No it's not. Mario Bros. even retains ground combos, which is more than gameplay on Havenbow can say.

Wrong. Although the leaves will bend, characters with disjointed hitboxes can still fight just fine on the leaves.

...what? What does this have to do with anything? On Havenbow, you can force aerial approaches. That redefines the fabric of the game.

Olimar and Ike are like this, yet I can keep up with at least decently-skilled speedy characters on it just fine.

Look, you can say that you can catch Fox with Ike on Hyrule Temple. Doesn't make it true.

Even if you don't count my personal experience, it's not as bad as you say it is. Say your opponent is on the leaf sticking out from the ground. If you go after them, they can either go to the upper tree or the main tree (one of which would mean facing you along the way). They can't go anywhere else, and you're generally going to see where they're headed right away so that you can go after them. Characters with at least a decent airgame can probably even catch them as they move (a bit hard to say, since Olimar and Ike have pretty good airgames).

You can't just say "It's fine, just jump out there at them with your air game." Characters have different "air games", and no other stage allows the ground game to be totally removed. As a player, you should not have the right to remove the opponent's entire ground game through your stage selection. That is beyond the scope of counter-picking.

What do you mean by this, exactly?

I'm saying that it is no longer a fun, reasonable, valid fight for competitive smash. It is invalidated, like fighting Fox on Hyrule Temple.

 

[Thinkaman]

Brawl has 10,000 times better stages then Melee.

This is very true. Brawl's stages honestly are much better than Melee's. I think the only reason people complain at all is that none of the 64 stages came back. You are clearly a very reasonable and intelligent person who--

This is the reason I don't enter too many tournaments. There are too many banned stages.

...has no idea what he is talking about. Why are you in a topic about tourney stage legality if you don't go to tourneys? Not going to tourneys because of legal stages is the biggest johns I've ever heard, especially after you just said you consider the Melee legal list to be liberal.

The list (in my opinion) should look like this:

Neutral:

-Pirate Ship
-Norfair (deal with the lava. If you can't dodge it, you suck).
-Yoshi's Island (Melee)
-Pokémon Stadium 2
-PictoChat

Counter-Pick:

-Delfino Plaza (doubles nuetral, singles counter-pick)
-Luigi's Mansion (at least doubles neutral; I'm unsure if it should be singles neutral or not, so I'll leave it at a counter-pick to be safe).
-Mario Circuit
-Rumble Falls (maybe not online. I think it's at least worth a shot, since it doesn't seem too unfair).
-The Bridge of Eldin
-The Summit (maybe online banned?)
-Hanebow

I left the silly ones, and it seems like you have no idea why they are CP or banned.

-Pirate Ships's water gives some character a large advantage outside the bounds of a neutral stage. Random cannonballs, even in avoidable, don't make things much better.
-Norfair isn't CP because of lava, it's CP because of the unorthodox platform layout with 3 edges on each side. Again, significant enough advantages/disadvantages.
-Yoshi's Island (Melee) has a very biased layout and a low ceiling. This is not a neutral stage.
-Pokemon Stadium 2's conveyors and wind also offer heavy advantages/disadvantages. (Honestly, they aren't that bad though... If someone from the future told me it would one day be neutral, I'd believe them.)
-Picto-Chat has random stuff out the wing-wang.

-Why do you have Delfino Plaza and Luigi's Mansion as CP if your Neutral list includes the likes of Pirate Ship?

-Mario Circuit is not banned for karts, that's absurd. It's banned because DeDeDe can chainthrow over half the cast to insta-death there. Bridge of Eldin too.
-Rumble Falls and Summit are in no way legal, though both are much better than most people make them out to be.
-Havenbow has been discussed; obviously banned.

If more tournament stage legality lists looked more like that, I'd enter a lot more tournaments. Seeing Delfino Plaza and Rainbow Ride (Cruise) banned is some of the stupidest s*** ever. If someone told a Melee competitive veteran in Melee Rainbow Ride was a banned stage at a tournament, they'd laugh. It's propostorous. It's a Melee doubles neutral stage, to top it all off. And it only got more neutral in Brawl. Seriously, I don't get some of these stupid banning anymore. A lot of them have the stupidest reasons I've ever heard of. Unless you want all neutral stages, the most banned stages you should have is a dozen, if even that. The Back Room so far has banned only banned "officially" like half a dozen stages or so. And yet people continue banning 25 or so stages. Absolutely ridiculous.

I'm just gonna tell you the truth: I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in any of this.

 

[Sliq]

In this thread, people who haven't attended worthwhile tournaments tell seasoned players about stages.

Seriously, I wany to play Alexx online and see if he's a noob or just a ******.

 

[Empy]

I for one think Hanenbow should not be banned. It does force air game upon people. Which does affect the metagame. But it doesn't truly destroy characters. It strongly favors certain characters, but that would be a reason to make it a good counterpick, not to ban it imo.

 

[smashbro29]

I say

Neutral
1.final destination
2.battefield
3.yoshi's island(brawl)
4.lylat cruise
5.smashville

COUNTERPICK-
1.Delfino
2.luigi's mansion
3.mario circuit
4.bridge of eldin
5.frigate orpheon
6.Halberd
7.Port Town
8.Castle siege
9.Summit
10.GHZ

banned
the rest

if you don't understand one of my choices please tell me you may even change my mind

 

[OmegaXXII]

Why ban stages several stages in Brawl when they are CLEARLY better=??? Brawl has 10,000 times better stages then Melee. This is the reason I don't enter too many tournaments. There are too many banned stages. I now know where the term "5 stock, no items, Fox dittos, FD" came from. So many Final Destination exclusive players. I hate that so much. How can you play the most boring plain stage so much=??? There are several much more balanced stages, too. It's one thing to play it a lot, but I've faced a lot of people who play FD (and BF) basically exclusively.

hello JohnK, long time no see, but on topic I do agree that most stages in Brawl are indeed better than most Melee one's (but not all) and yea I guess I have to agree that "FD" among with as few other should'nt be the only legal tourny stages there are way more balanced stages such as PS2 or Smashville, but I guess that's just for the really serious tourny players who want no obstacles of any sort

 

[Ants]

I say

Neutral
1.final destination
2.battefield
3.yoshi's island(brawl)
4.lylat cruise
5.smashville

COUNTERPICK-
1.Delfino
2.luigi's mansion
3.mario circuit
4.bridge of eldin
5.frigate orpheon
6.Halberd
7.Port Town
8.Castle siege
9.Summit
10.GHZ

banned
the rest

if you don't understand one of my choices please tell me you may even change my mind

ok mario circuit, no.. bridge of eldin.. no, and GHZ.. no

the stages in which u can just walk off to ur death should all be banned.
one reason why is because of king ddd's chaingrab, definitely makes it unfair.
edgeguarding can barely even be applied in those stages as well.

otherwise, i definitely agree with your neutrals and the counterpicks i can understand... cept maybe not summit.

 

[Patinator]

Since people are already answering them, I won't join discussion about some of the recent lists.

HOWEVER, I did spy Summit in several Counter-Pick list. That is absolutely the most absurd thing I've ever seen, except for Pirate Ship being Neutral.

If someone's playing Zamus, Olimar, or Ivysaur... All you have to do is knock them off, hit then during their double jump, and then wait for them to lose. There are no grabbable edges on an ice stage.

Plus, people who WOULD get back from grabbing the edge if knocked far enough away wouldn't.

Not to mention, when sliding it's like Big Blue, backwards. You take damage in the front, and die instantly if you're spiked onto the back half of the slope.

Plus the fish, the water, the icicle... The first of which is reason enough to bad this stage. Even if you dodge it, you can still die from the tail!

*Pant* *Pant* Okay, anti-Summit rant over.

 

[smashbro29]

ok mario circuit, no.. bridge of eldin.. no, and GHZ.. no

the stages in which u can just walk off to ur death should all be banned.
one reason why is because of king ddd's chaingrab, definitely makes it unfair.
edgeguarding can barely even be applied in those stages as well.

otherwise, i definitely agree with your neutrals and the counterpicks i can understand... cept maybe not summit.

i'd like to hear the general opinion. although the chain grab is a good point summit i chose because everything that happens is fixed that's how i chose the counters

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Ummm...why are we discussing stages that are already banned?

Hey Sliq, how many characters are affected by the tilt on Lylat, in terms of cancelled mid-air moves? Ike...who else?

 

[Snail]

i'd like to hear the general opinion. although the chain grab is a good point summit i chose because everything that happens is fixed that's how i chose the counters

Except the fish isn't fixed... It may be avoidable but the entire fight starts revolving about avoiding the fish and trying to smash the other person into the water. I think it should be banned... but we'll see. And the lack of edges is... iffy to say the least, if not downright unacceptable for tournament play. CP's are supposed to provide slight advantages, not instant wins.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

Except the fish isn't fixed... It may be avoidable but the entire fight starts revolving about avoiding the fish and trying to smash the other person into the water. I think it should be banned... but we'll see. And the lack of edges is... iffy to say the least, if not downright unacceptable for tournament play. CP's are supposed to provide slight advantages, not instant wins.

Since when is it easy to spike someone when they're expecting it? Besides Falco chaingrab->spike, which I thought can be DI'd out of anyway.

I agree about the ledges.

 

[Thinkaman]

In this thread, people who haven't attended worthwhile tournaments tell seasoned players about stages.

Seriously, I wany to play Alexx online and see if he's a noob or just a ******.

QFT, I don't see why people even argue about rules that will never affect them.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The areas in which the fish can appear are fixed though, and he's pretty easy to avoid. The times he is going to kill you are usually the times in which you would have died were there no water and just a standard pit (which everyone would have accepted).

The tether character argument is silly and always has been. Zero Suit Samus can use her down + B to recover which means this is just Olimar and Ivysaur. That means needing a tether to recover is equivalent to needing Pk Thunder to recover in terms of number of characters affected. If you are banning stages that screw tether recovery, you had better ban stages that can screw Pk Thunder. That includes Yoshi's Island (brawl) by the way; the support ghost randomly kills Ness and Lucas when they are recovering from below by popping up next to them and hitting their Pk Thunder. It's still obviously neutral; having a recovery that is occasionally screwed is just what Ness and Lucas players have to accept (though Lucas has his Zap Jump I guess; he might be hit out after using his double jump). Olimar and Ivysaur players should just be ready to accept the same sort of thing.

Not being able to grab the edge and occasionally being hurt by the "ground" which is below the actual platform and will not be something you are hit into often with a few powerful but easy to avoid hazards sounds an awful lot like a very solid counterpick stage from melee. The low gravity and slippery surface are the two biggest things that separate the Summit from Mute City, and I think both fall more into the realm of "interesting mechanics" than "unfair distractions". No one is arguing for neutrality here; the Summit just stands to be a very interesting counterpick stage.

Also, in principle, it would make a lot more sense to argue against the points someone is making, not who the person arguing is. Arguments from credibility and refutations from lack of credibility really don't have much place in a debate which is essentially all this thread is. You should even pay attention to someone who has literally never played smash bros before... if they make a good point. The lists made at places like smashboards also have ripple effects far from standard tournaments; it's naive to think the list only affects someone who plays in tournaments as that's patently untrue. It creates a perception on the legitimacy of stages that extends to play at all levels and in all contexts.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

sonics lv has walk-off stage boundries...and a few hazardz.
althou no infnt combos, and hazards are e-z 2 avoid,

(D3chaingrab, lazorLOk, other chains, will be brocken by dip in center of stage...)

i think green hill zone is a counterpick...barely
it will probably vary in tounaments,
i think its no the boarderline btwn counterpick&BANNED, but slightly (1%) COUNTERPICK,

 

[AlexX]

Not my problem. Tons of people say the "dungeon" was the reason Hyrule Temple is banned, when in reality the problem is the loop.

Actually, it's both the loop and Cave of Life that causes it to be banned.

If you are playing the same on Havenbow as Final Destination, ur doin' it wrong.

I said I play on it the same way I do on stages with a ton of platforms. Where are there a ton of platforms on Final Destination?

...No, I never said that anywhere at all. I said Havenbow has the worst aspects of all those stages, including ones that are already banned, but made worse. This includes Lylat's tilting.

Now I know you're exaggerating. Hanenbow isn't even comparable to stages like Big Blue. I mean, what is in Hanenbow that can kill you just by standing on the ground?

No it's not. Mario Bros. even retains ground combos, which is more than gameplay on Havenbow can say.

I do Ike's A-combo on Hanenbow all the time, and since 3 hits is all most characters are able to land, ground combat is fine. However, funny you mention Mario Bros, because that stage pretty much removes air combos due to the floor position, not to mention Hanenbow has nothing comparable to those crabs and koopas that can kill you at absurdly low %'s.

...what? What does this have to do with anything? On Havenbow, you can force aerial approaches. That redefines the fabric of the game.

A good amount of the cast has aerial approaches, from Ike's n-air to Marth's f-air. Hanenbow gives them an advantage, which is reason to make it a counter-pick.

Look, you can say that you can catch Fox with Ike on Hyrule Temple. Doesn't make it true.

I can't catch Fox with Ike on Hyrule Temple. There's too much stuff in the way for me to attempt to intercept someone who's fleeing.

You can't just say "It's fine, just jump out there at them with your air game." Characters have different "air games", and no other stage allows the ground game to be totally removed. As a player, you should not have the right to remove the opponent's entire ground game through your stage selection. That is beyond the scope of counter-picking.

Ground game isn't totally removed, and the fact the stage gives an innate advantage to characters with better airgames makes it a good counterpick.

I'm saying that it is no longer a fun, reasonable, valid fight for competitive smash. It is invalidated, like fighting Fox on Hyrule Temple.

And I'm saying that it's a legitimate counterpick because despite how much people hate it, it gives an innate advantage to certain characters.

In this thread, people who haven't attended worthwhile tournaments tell seasoned players about stages.

Doesn't matter if it's a national tournament or city tournament. Tournaments are tournaments and make it a lot easier to see what stages are fair and which aren't.

Seriously, I wany to play Alexx online and see if he's a noob or just a ******.

I'm not the one who said it would be easy to prove an argument and then proceed to say it's so obvious that doing so isn't needed, despite the fact nobody else but Thinkaman ever agreeing on your claim, nor was it ever brought up until you did. Calling me stupid doesn't help your argument, either.

I'd like nothing more than to fight you on Wifi to prove the stage doesn't bother me as significantly as you claim it would, but I'm afraid I don't have a Wifi connection. You're probably going to say I'm just arguing this to avoid you, but I don't really know what could be done about that since I am not sure how I can prove it...

 

[RedMage8BT]

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 is illegal, right? I hear some people saying it's counterpick... I hope those people realize that throwing up (no pun intended) on the top of the stage is an instant kill with most characters

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Nehe...wow, this thread is becoming a little ludicrous. This is a stage discussion people! Sliq, calm down and stop being a loser towards those who you would deem 'inferior' to you and just post intelligently on why you think stuff should be banned, neutral, or CP. It doesn't help when you just post stuff that has nothing to do with stages, but completely bashes everyone. And that goes for everyone who is just arguing pointless stuff in here: be helpful or leave. Don't discuss tournament experience in here, don't discuss who is who and who has attended more tournaments or knows this or that person, because quite frankly nobody actually cares about that in a stage discussion thread. At least no one should care...move that kind of banter to another thread please.

Ja man, Mushroomy Kingdom is banned, as far as I know. Thus far, we have made very little progress in this thread...the last few pages, at least.

I'm thinking that LC should still be neutral, because it does not affect all characters on their aerial game. But then...no, for now I'm sticking with this. Is anyone going to respond to this, I wonder...

I might remake a list of neutrals and counterpicks in a little while with good reasons as to why on all of them. However, I still do not have enough info. on LC yet.

 

[Thinkaman]

What? My arguments against Havenbow in this thread have never included "not fun"... Are you confusing me with someone else? It's kinda funny to be saying this to me, since I on the whole am arguing for a more liberal legal stage list. For awhile I was even in favor of Luigi's Mansion on Neutral and Summit as CP!

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Whoops...sorry Thinkaman. I just deleted that part of the post as you posted. I thought it was rather wasted too. Moving on...

 

[Thinkaman]

Alright, to move on then... the other stage some people have as CP that I think should be banned outright is Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1. Everyone agrees that 1-2 is worse, but that doesn't mean 1-1 gets a free pass... in reality, it is easily ban-worthy as well. It has the same low ceiling, the same scrolling mechanics, the same walls and pits... Honestly, most of that doesn't matter too much, even in combination... the critical problem is the ceiling.

Seriously, if you have played on the stage any decent amount, you should know that the ceiling is dysfunctionally low. You have stages like Corneria, where the ceiling is very low and gives certain characters/tactics a big advantage, but then you have THIS, where the rules are changed completely. Attacks that are not normally KO moves are now primary killing weapons; gameplay in smash is built on a balance between moves with constant knockback and linear knockback, which this stage throws out the window due to constant knockback being enough to reliably KO.

The stage is a cute, fun gimmick that does not fit into the balance of the rest of the game. I'm very glad it's in the game, but no one should ever be forced to play on it by an opponent.

 

[AlexX]

Alright, to move on then... the other stage some people have as CP that I think should be banned outright is Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1. Everyone agrees that 1-2 is worse, but that doesn't mean 1-1 gets a free pass... in reality, it is easily ban-worthy as well. It has the same low ceiling, the same scrolling mechanics, the same walls and pits... Honestly, most of that doesn't matter too much, even in combination... the critical problem is the ceiling.

This is one stage ban I'm willing to agree with you on. Especially since a few places on the stage that you can fight on are high enough that getting a star-KO is pretty easy.

 

[Snail]

Yeah, I agree on Mushroom Kingdom 1-1 as well. Wouldn't like to get KO'd by up-tilts at 40% >_>

 

[TTT]

I swear to god if the fish stage isn't banned i'm going to kill someone. Sup guize i'm here to discuss some stages. I think Hanenbow should be a CP prove me wrong.

 

[katanagash]

Is this a joke?

You could say that to the guy that ran the tournament. The list I showed was not mine, it was his.

 

[MysticKenji]

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville

Limbo:
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 1
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]

Counterpick:
Battleship Halberd
Bridge of Eldin
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Lylat Cruise
Mario Circuit
Norfair
Onett
PictoChat
Pirate Ship
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island [Melee]

Banned:
75m
Big Blue
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Spear Pillar
Summit
Temple
Warioware

Critique plz.

 

[RedMage8BT]

What exactly makes Lylat a counterpick, and why is Yoshi's Island in "Limbo"?

Port Town and Distant Planet should switch