Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Daimonster]

I'm going to snip your replies in respect to each category that you quoted.

Norfair: Example 1: Player 1 edgeguarding player 2. Lava fire (the one that shoots from the background onto the stage) appears in front of player 1. PLayer 1 is now forced to shield or use invunerability frames on the platforms to dodge fire. Player 2 is granted an easy recovery due to the fire attacking player 1.
Example 2: Player 1 smashes player 2 (with high %) with a move sending player 2 horizontally to the right. Lava wall forms at the same time saving player 2 from death and giving him a chance to recover.
These are simply 2 hypothetical scenarios that take place frequently on this stage.

I agree with you on green Greens. I forgot to add in that aspect of the map. I'll edit my post about green greens.

After brief thought, I agree with your thoughts on Onett. I'll also edit that into my post over onett.

Skyworld does not add anything to characters rather than it limits other character's recovery. This stage does not necessarily benefit a character rather than hurt other characters. I'm wishy washy about skyworld, but if I had the choice...i'd ban it.

Rainbow cruise is a good map. This map makes air control a strong factor. If your opponent has a very strong ground game...take them here. This map forces players to play in the air more often than many other maps. That is a GOOD reason for a counterpick stage. Not "take this character here because his character sucks here".

As for the PS1 glitch...it happened in melee and was allowed forever. Nothing is going to change in brawl.

 

[Sinz]

D4ba, I didn't know that was in melee. I played melee forever, and i never remember that happening.
One of the other reasons for it being cp, is because of how many characters have wall infinites. But, I don't mind it being starter. I like it personally.

Norfair ,is lame, but fair :/

RC is love.

 

[Daimonster]

Thanks for bringing me up to speed so quickly guys. Also, could anyone direct me to the norfair debate? I would like to read more into other's thoughts on the stage.

Sinz: Yes, the glitch is available in melee as well. However, the glitch doesn't effect enough games to really make a difference. Ps1 is most likely a starter to balance out the striking system. Each player has the choice to wait out certain sections of the pokemon stadium environment changes. That isn't stalling, rather than choosing to wait for a more ideal moment to approach.

 

[Deoxys]

Norfair: Example 1: Player 1 edgeguarding player 2. Lava fire (the one that shoots from the background onto the stage) appears in front of player 1. PLayer 1 is now forced to shield or use invunerability frames on the platforms to dodge fire. Player 2 is granted an easy recovery due to the fire attacking player 1.
Example 2: Player 1 smashes player 2 (with high %) with a move sending player 2 horizontally to the right. Lava wall forms at the same time saving player 2 from death and giving him a chance to recover.

In Yoshi's Island, ghosts sometimes rise up and save a player when they would have died otherwise. Despite this, it is widely considered one of the 3 most neutral stages in the game. IMO, saving someone from death on occaison isn't good reason to ban a stage. This is the same reason I think Jungle Japes is a fair CP (again, IMO); I consider the running water to be like the ghost, except if the ghost were usually there, and sometimes not.

Skyworld does not add anything to characters rather than it limits other character's recovery. This stage does not necessarily benefit a character rather than hurt other characters. I'm wishy washy about skyworld, but if I had the choice...i'd ban it.

Rainbow cruise is a good map. This map makes air control a strong factor. If your opponent has a very strong ground game...take them here. This map forces players to play in the air more often than many other maps. That is a GOOD reason for a counterpick stage. Not "take this character here because his character sucks here".

Why is that a good reason? I have to ban Yoshi's Island (Melee) almost every matchup, but I don't think it's a stage that should be banned.



I'm leaning towards Halberd being the 5th Starter.

 

[x After Dawn x]

P.S. Oh nothin'. How goes it After Dawn?

Not much. Seems to me that you're cleaning this area up again.

 

[Deoxys]

Not much. Seems to me that you're cleaning this area up again.

It would be nice if you could have your chat via visitor messages or something, rather than cluttering this thread that he worked so hard to clean up.


I think we should focus our debate now on:

Halberd vs. Lylat Cruise vs. PS1 for Starter

Skyworld Ban or CP

 

[Mmac]

About Pokemon Stadium 1, that only happens on the Grass part on the left side, and is very rare. Even if it does happen, it can be easily avoided by avoiding the left side or staying in the air during the stage change.

I agree with Deoxys List, but I also agree with everyone else that Skyworld should be banned

Edit: I think Lylat is a Natural Starter and should have always been in the first place. Pokemon Stadium 1 I also agree on Starter as I don't really see anything on the stage that interferes too much, but Halberd I'm not exactly too sure.

 

[deepseadiva]

Done? I can come in again?

Well, regarding the starters we have a two options:

Either cut it down to three starters, which is simple and easy. But no, everyone will whine "Well what about variety... blah blah..." Or option two, debate for a fifth stage (or more) as a definite starter. We can choose between Castle Siege, Delfino, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, or Pokemon Stadium One.

I'm leaning more toward Pokemon Stadium, Lylat, and Castle Siege. In that order.

Halberd, no. It has the 6th lowest, and at times the lowest, ceiling of the legal stages. Way to much impact to be considered as a starter.

Delfino has water, walkoffs, and walls. Much to much going on.

Otherwise, we're choosing between which attribute affects gameplay less: temporary walls on PS1, tilting, or temporary walksoffs on CS.

While tilting doesn't seem to much of a problem at first. I'm convinced the topsy-turviness plays a large role concerning recoveries. A player does not choose when they get knocked off stage, and as such the stage my be tilted against them. A random factor; and something that should be discouraged as an attribute for a starter.

So we're now choosing between which is less influencing, temp walls, or temp walkoffs. PS1 or CS. Well, which is more important, damage % or stock?



Concluding with the fact walls mainly affect damage, while walkoffs mainly only affect KOs, we can easily choose Pokemon Stadium as our starter.

 

[Daimonster]

In Yoshi's Island, ghosts sometimes rise up and save a player when they would have died otherwise.
Why is that a good reason? I have to ban Yoshi's Island (Melee) almost every matchup, but I don't think it's a stage that should be banned.

I'm leaning towards Halberd being the 5th Starter.

Yoshi's Island support ghost is not random. The ghost comes up every ~7 seconds. Also with some experimenting, I have a theory that the support ghost favors certain sides during certain seasons.

I don't understand why you are forced to ban YI (melee/pipes). Please give more detail as to why it is necessary for you to ban this map.

Halberd is a very favorable stage for snake and good stage for rob. The element of a moving base platform that can be double jumped through helps some characters. Imo, not neutral enough to be a starter.

I think we should focus our debate now on:

Halberd vs. Lylat Cruise vs. PS1 for Starter

Skyworld Ban or CP

Agreed, lylat is way too good for rob and halberd way too good for snake. Lylat punishes those with poor recoveries etc. Those are simply examples, not neutral enough for a starter.

I agree with Deoxys List, but I also agree with everyone else that Skyworld should be banned

Agreed

I'm leaning more toward Pokemon Stadium, Lylat, and Castle Siege. In that order.

Concluding with the fact walls mainly affect damage, while walkoffs mainly only affect KOs, we can easily choose Pokemon Stadium as our starter.

Agrees with this man.

 

[Deoxys]

I don't understand why you are forced to ban YI (melee/pipes). Please give more detail as to why it is necessary for you to ban this map.

The ceiling is very low. There is only one ledge I can gimp people, and it is extremely close to the blastzone. If I try to KO someone horizontally, they can hit the slopes on the sides, which makes it harder, and if I want to finish the job it requires me to approach to where a backthrow would KO me. Thus, KOing from above is the best option, which is also the hardest for MK to do by far. Furthermore, the blocks make SLing slightly more situational, but it's a much, much smaller issue than everything else.

About Pokemon Stadium 1, that only happens on the Grass part on the left side, and is very rare. Even if it does happen, it can be easily avoided by avoiding the left side or staying in the air during the stage change.

Ah, good point. This is good to know. I, too, favor PS1 now.

Edit: I think Lylat is a Natural Starter and should have always been in the first place. Pokemon Stadium 1 I also agree on Starter as I don't really see anything on the stage that interferes too much, but Halberd I'm not exactly too sure.[/QUOTE]

The problem is we can't fit both Lylat and PS1 in as starters.

[quote="MenoUnderwater, post: 5739613"]Either cut it down to three starters, which is simple and easy. But no, everyone will whine "[I]Well what about variety... blah blah...[/I]"[/QUOTE]

That's not the main concern here IMO. The issue is that if you're playing against Snake (for example), you HAVE to strike SV, allowing them to effectively choose the starter.

[COLOR="Blue"]Meno[/COLOR], what do you think of Skyworld, Jungle Japes, and Norfair? Is severely hurting a few specific characters a good reason to ban Skyworld?

 

[Mmac]

Are you talking about actually banning Yoshi's Island Melee directly from the list, or banning it as in striking it out during your match?

And why do you keep calling it pipes? Why can't you call it Melee? Because thats what it is, Yoshi's Island Melee! I mean you don't call Kongo Jungle 64 "Kongo Jungle Crappy Last Generation Textures That are actually 2D Sprites"

 

[Deoxys]

Are you talking about actually banning Yoshi's Island Melee directly from the list, or banning it as in striking it out during your match?

And why do you keep calling it pipes? Why can't you call it Melee? Because thats what it is, Yoshi's Island Melee! I mean you don't call Kongo Jungle 64 "Kongo Jungle Crappy Last Generation Textures That are actually 2D Sprites"

I call it Melee... and I'm talking about banning it in matches as an MK player. It's a fair stage, no doubt! My point when I brought it up was that just because a stage severely hurts a character or two shouldn't be a good reason to ban it, which is the main reason I hear for banning Skyworld.


Edit: WTF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2BiMBFgyOA

 

[Mmac]

Yeah, but Yoshi's Island Melee only hurts one character (That desperately needs to be hurt). Skyworld hurts multiple characters, and favours most of the High Tier characters with Excellent Recoveries

 

[Deoxys]

Yeah, but Yoshi's Island Melee only hurts one character (That desperately needs to be hurt). Skyworld hurts multiple characters, and favours most of the High Tier characters with Excellent Recoveries

Which stages are allowed should be considered entirely independantly of tiers. Yoshi's Island Melee hurts other light characters, just not as much.

 

[deepseadiva]

Meno, what do you think of Skyworld, Jungle Japes, and Norfair? Is severely hurting a few specific characters a good reason to ban Skyworld?

The fact a character has done poorly on a stage has never been used as criteria to ban a stage. Otherwise, the entire counterpick system would fail and we would all be playing on starters.

Just because poor Olimar has a hard time on Skyworld does not constitute a ban.

I'm more surprised the cave of life hasn't been mentioned. That and the spiking thing.

Japes and Norfair are definite counters. Skyworld is debatable.

 

[Deoxys]

The fact a character has done poorly on a stage has never been used as criteria to ban a stage. Otherwise, the entire counterpick system would fail and we would all be playing on starters.

Just because poor Olimar has a hard time on Skyworld does not constitute a ban.

I'm more surprised the cave of life hasn't been mentioned. That and the spiking thing.

Japes and Norfair are definite counters. Skyworld is debatable.

The cave of life isn't a game breaking at all. Just break the stage or fight somewhere else. Just today, I started to think again about Jungle Japes; do the klaptraps come in set intervals or anything? If they are just random it hardly seems fair that you just get KO'd sometimes. At least it seems a lot less fair than Skyworld.

 

[Rudementry]

Klap traps come once every 10 seconds. At a tourney I went to once the friend of someone in the match (on jungle japes) was warning him right before one came around every time. Its not easy counting to 10 at regular intervals while brawling .

 

[Deoxys]

Klap traps come once every 10 seconds. At a tourney I went to once the friend of someone in the match (on jungle japes) was warning him right before one came around every time. Its not easy counting to 10 at regular intervals while brawling .

Oh, well at least it's fair then. You don't have to count to 10 if you keep your eye on the timer.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Mmmm, actually it comes around every 7 seconds.

 

[Daimonster]

The question involving the klaptrap being legal for JungleJapes is mostly due to "is it random"? The answer is no.

I got done reading the Smash Bros Brawl official guide today. You'd be suprised how much you would learn about their intentions towards characters and stages by reading that guide.

I believe maps that are random and cannot be predicted should be banned. For example, pictochat and norfair. Did you know that the lava wall chooses a player at random and forms/covers an entire side depending on that character? Other stages involve Halberd and Pirate Ship. On the contrary, players appear to be ok with the fact that their character may be randomly targeted by the stage for an onslaught of projectiles. That is, until that randomization appears to always target them.

Thoughts on such stages?

 

[deepseadiva]

I got done reading the Smash Bros Brawl official guide today. You'd be suprised how much you would learn about their intentions towards characters and stages by reading that guide.

I'll tell you that guide wasn't made by the designers or anything. It was written by some guy after the game was created.

Thoughts on such stages?

As long as the randomization does not put the victimized player at a heavy disadvantage there shouldn't be a problem.

Pictochat's hazards won't kill until a very reasonable percent. Norfair's hazards are extremely obvious, so are Halberd's and Pirate Ship's.

The cave of life isn't a game breaking at all. Just break the stage or fight somewhere else.

I know I know, but that's another reason that is usually brought up in Skyworld discussions. It's more legitimate than "Will someone please think of the tethers?!?"

 

[Deoxys]

Mmmm, actually it comes around every 7 seconds.

Umm, actually it comes every 10 seconds... I just tested it staring at the clock the whole time, and it came on the 7 each time.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I'll tell you that guide wasn't made by the designers or anything. I was written by some guy after the game was created.



As long as the randomization does not put the victimized player at a heavy disadvantage there shouldn't be a problem.

Pictochat's hazards won't kill until a very reasonable percent. Norfair's hazards are extremely obvious, so are Halberd's and Pirate Ship's.



I know I know, but that's another reason that is usually brought up in Skyworld discussions. It's more legitimate than "Will someone please think of the tethers?!?"

Agreed with the Pictochat sentence, all the stages.
Though I'm not the most fond of Norfair, it is legit.
I still just can't make myself want to have Skyworld on the allowed.

 

[Deoxys]

Agreed with the Pictochat sentence, all the stages.
Though I'm not the most fond of Norfair, it is legit.
I still just can't make myself want to have Skyworld on the allowed.

Remember, it shouldn't be about want. It should be about removing skill from the game.

 

[Deoxys]

Pictochat's hazards won't kill until a very reasonable percent. Norfair's hazards are extremely obvious, so are Halberd's and Pirate Ship's.

Pictochat is fair IMO because stages don't repeat in the same game and come at set intervals. Plus, all of the damaging hazards are in the same general area. The stage can gimp at any % on the left on one of the transformations, but it only gimps some characters if they try to recover from the angle that allows it at a time when the screen is changing, in which case that's a gamble you're choosing to take most of the time, and the rest of the time you'd almost always be suseptible to ledgehogging anyway.

The rest is totally true.

OMG I keep DPing. Stupid boards for not letting me delete.


Skyworld (practically) = a less cool Luigi's Mansion. Totally fair....

 

[MysticKenji]

You can't break Mansion's ledges though.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Umm, actually it comes every 10 seconds... I just tested it staring at the clock the whole time, and it came on the 7 each time.

Hmmm. Ten seconds it is then. Whatever, I don't care enough to figure out the exact time. Just something I heard.

Anyways, I really don't see how you would think stages like PC and such are super unfair simply for being random. Pictochat has few hazards that harm you, and even fewer that actually KO you. The stage is not game breaking in any way whatsoever.

I personally hate Norfair for singles(awesome doubles stage though), but I still don't think it's bad enough to be banned. Unless, of course, someone unbans stalling, hehe.

 

[GwJ]

How the hell is Norfair not banned?

 

[Deoxys]

Hmmm. Ten seconds it is then. Whatever, I don't care enough to figure out the exact time. Just something I heard.

Anyways, I really don't see how you would think stages like PC and such are super unfair simply for being random. Pictochat has few hazards that harm you, and even fewer that actually KO you. The stage is not game breaking in any way whatsoever.

It's important that it's 10 seconds because it makes it REALLY predictable.

I don't think PC is super unfair! I'm advocating its viability as a CP.

How the hell is Norfair not banned?

*facepalm*

We just went over this. If you know how to play there it doesn't do anything game breaking.

You can't break Mansion's ledges though.

Hence why it = lamer Luigi's Mansion. That said, a Luigi's Mansion that can have its ledges destroyed does not equal bannable at all.

 

[Deoxys]

Some people think this is a good reason to ban Luigi's Mansion (and thus, obviously, Skyworld):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujLvRh_4JHQ&fmt=18

I disagree with this argument. It seems like the ROB player should have played more urgently, and if anything I think it just shows why matches should be 8 minutes.

I'm double posting, since this thread has been inactive and this is a new piece to the discussion.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Remember, it shouldn't be about want. It should be about removing skill from the game.

Even Tethers aside, Skyworld screws some other characters as well.
And once the platforms are destroyed, it's almost as if you are aiming to kill with the course then to kill with your character.

 

[Deoxys]

Even Tethers aside, Skyworld screws some other characters as well.
And once the platforms are destroyed, it's almost as if you are aiming to kill with the course then to kill with your character.

So you're in favor of banning Jungle Japes and Pirate Ship since you can use the course to kill them? Secondly, hearing complaints of the cave of immortality and complaints from the stage killing early at the same time is bizzare.

 

[infomon]

So you're in favor of banning Jungle Japes and Pirate Ship since you can use the course to kill them? Secondly, hearing complaints of the cave of immortality and complaints from the stage killing early at the same time is bizzare.

I'm not sure I agree with the previous poster, but having some stage hazards doesn't mean they dominate the match. If a stage reduces high-level play to camping immortality zones or fighting against stage hazards the whole time, that might be categorically different than avoiding the water on JJ. I'm just saying, his arguments aren't necessarily as slippery as you're implying.

And the cave of immortality might mean that everyone must switch to characters that are immortal rather than instafail. Which could be kind of dumb if it's the case.

 

[Deoxys]

What I mean is that it's not like it's Big Blue where the stage does the job for you.

Cave of Immortality isn't character specific. Any character can DI strongly to live when the cave is present. Plus, once the floor breaks the CoI goes away. Skyworld doesn't even have hazards, except that its ledges can be temporarily destroyed. It's not much more hazardous than Frigate Orpheon in that sense.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

It's important that it's 10 seconds because it makes it REALLY predictable.

I don't think PC is super unfair! I'm advocating its viability as a CP.

I wasn't speaking to you. Relax.

Not much. Seems to me that you're cleaning this area up again.

Yup, hehe. It's fun every once in a while.

Anyways, stages with hazards like WarioWare's are what need to be banned. Not many that are that bad though.

EDIT: To elaborate, stages like Japes(as Praxis has just stated below) are fine. Green Greens really isn't bannable either. Neither is Halberd, etc. Stages with RIDICULOUS hazards, like giving people giant mushrooms and invincibility, are what need to be banned. However very, very few are like that.

 

[Praxis]

Anyone who wants Japes banned is a complete and utter ******. There's nothing even random on the stage. The croc comes at a ten second interval. If you note where it is at a certain digit on the timer, the croc will ALWAYS be at that same spot when the last digit is the same. I use this to my advantage all the time, because most of my opponents never think to track the crock via the timer. Not my fault they walk into it and then john about it afterwards.

The croc NEVER kills me unless I am launched into it by an opponent.

Nor does the stage promote camping- the ability to walk off the main platform and snap to the side platform ledges lets you catch up with campers, and the campers line themselves up with the blast zones.

Now, Luigi's Mansion, that's a campfest.


Green greens I can see the argument, but I strongly disagree with anyone who thinks it's bannable.

Id like to see (and learn) the DI that helps peach survive a bomb at 100% lol...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZBI_a9LddQ

1:31, and I wasn't even DIing.

 

[deepseadiva]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZBI_a9LddQ

1:31, and I wasn't even DIing.

Of course you weren't DIing. It's just cause you're a witch.

And just as a note before people start using it as a reason to start banning things; being very campy does not affect a stage's legality in the least. Look at FD.

 

[Deoxys]

Of course you weren't DIing. It's just cause you're a witch.

And just as a note before people start using it as a reason to start banning things; being very campy does not affect a stage's legality in the least. Look at FD.

When it's not perfect circle camping, I totally agree with you. M2K does not, though.

Praxis, Jungle Japes always loads so it's on the 7 that it shows up on the right, right? And around the 5 on the left?


I'm still not sure whether I think Lylat Cruise or PS1 is the better starter....

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I say the obvious 4 starter stages are in a league of their own.

Lylat, PS1, Castle seige and delfino are all pretty nice and balanced but I don't think any of them are fair enough to lump in with "neutrals"

as a zelda main, I love luigi's mansion. it stops people from camping me to death. it keeps people alive for longer and it gives advantages to certain charcters, but it's far from gamebreaking and is not the least bit random. It's clearly a counterpick, but I can't see why it would be banned.

 

[deepseadiva]

I say the obvious 4 starter stages are in a league of their own.

Lylat, PS1, Castle seige and delfino are all pretty nice and balanced but I don't think any of them are fair enough to lump in with "neutrals"

I agree entirely. But for the stage strike system to work you need an odd number of starter stages, so we either need to cut it down to three, or tack on another one. I think PS1 is the most neutral, while Delfino coming off as more as a counter, in this order:

PS1 - temporary walls
Lylat - tilting
Castle Siege - temporary walkoffs
Delfino - temporary walls and walkoffs

I list their effects based on how much I believe they affect a match. A starter should try to minimize stage interference as much as possible.

So it's just a matter of what you think interferes less with a match - temp walls, or tilting.