Official Stage Legality Discussion

[DuskMarthWater]

Nope. If you're infinited you will die from a hit after pretty much anywhere... I mean... it's an infinite...

I see where you're coming from, but that is not what I was implying. What I said should have set off your sarcasm detector in the first place, but the fact remains that if you go down there, BOTH players are close to a very small blastzone, not just the one who is camping. That's like, a DOUBLE whammy on the one who is forced to go down there. That way, if you don't get infinited, you STILL have a high chance of dying. Man, that's smart.

On the contrary, I think most of the SBR thought a lot about most of the stages. Some, like Pictochat, and to a lesser extent, Pirate Ship, seem absurdly broken unless you really think about it.

...You're joking, right? Give me a GOOD reason that Green Hill Zone is legal. Tell me why Mario Circuit was ever considered. Why is Corneria legal? No, the SBR was far better for Melee. And I really don't see why you would ever think that Pictochat is broken, because it's not. Neither is Pirate Ship. BROKEN stages are stages where almost everyone can infinite, where all you need to win is get a single grab off, like all of the ones I just posted.

If you're an amazing smasher from experience from Melee, you don't have to be knowledgable about Brawl to make money at tourneys.

...And this makes any sense at all? Do you know what you just said? If you're not knowledgeable about a game, then you're NOT GOOD AT IT. Melee pros(or semi-pros, like me) already know tons about Brawl because it has similar aspects to Melee. Therefore, they have KNOWLEDGE of Brawl.

Not really. The real culprits are characters like Snake, Pit, and Toon Link.

I was only posting an example. Again, sarcasm detector.

Now then...my rant is over.

@SuperTH: ...I know what you mean, but that's not how the tournament community works. This isn't Soul Caliber, with a 4 page list of what's banned and what's not. If you have to say goodbye to one stage, oh well. There's still something like 25 that are legal. I think you'll live. Some of these things are banned, such as laser locking, but most of them aren't. Also:

This brings me back to Shadow Moses. Most arguments I hear are either about the short distance on the sides, or the walls being used to rack up too much damage. Seriously, this, to me, seems like the worst excuse. It's a simple idea to merely defend the walls at high percentages, and break them down to KO your opponent when they are at high percentages. This makes for a fantastic game of fluctuating offense and defense not seen in many stages.

That is what you said. But your idea really only works in theory. Stuff like that does not work in practice or in real tournament. You can't break down the wall and have it reform every time when you want it to. If the D3 is better than you(and one must always assume that your opponent is a tough match) then you're screwed. That's why it's banned, because there's this thing that most people forget about callled THE OPPONENT. That "thing" changes everything, because you have someone who is trying to control and manipulate the match, so you can't do everything you want to, nor do you have the time. See what I'm trying to say? If not, I'll clarify.

 

[Solharath]

@SuperTH: ...I know what you mean, but that's not how the tournament community works. This isn't Soul Caliber, with a 4 page list of what's banned and what's not. If you have to say goodbye to one stage, oh well. There's still something like 25 that are legal. I think you'll live. Some of these things are banned, such as laser locking, but most of them aren't. Also:

-myquote-

That is what you said. But your idea really only works in theory. Stuff like that does not work in practice or in real tournament. You can't break down the wall and have it reform every time when you want it to. If the D3 is better than you(and one must always assume that your opponent is a tough match) then you're screwed. That's why it's banned, because there's this thing that most people forget about callled THE OPPONENT. That "thing" changes everything, because you have someone who is trying to control and manipulate the match, so you can't do everything you want to, nor do you have the time. See what I'm trying to say? If not, I'll clarify.

Never played Soul Calibur competitively. But unto the Stage legality...

I'd like to think I put my opponent into account. But really, I understand that D3 can chain grab off the edge, and that the opponent may or is better then me. If they are better, then they deserve to win the fight. That's a pretty simple concept.

But my point is that techniques that drain the fight of it's fluidity and instead focus on 0% to death glitches should be banned, and staged that are banned because of that should be unbanned, and then further analyzed. I think it's horrid that we are down to Four neutral stages, and that some people actually fight to take down Final Destination and Yoshi's Island.

So if I've missed your point entirely, tell me, if not, think about my points. We're trying to make a tournament scene here, not trying to showcase the same characters playing the same maps over and over again.

And can someone explain to me what the Neutral/counterpick and counterpick/banned groups mean? I'm guessing those are stages which are decided by the tournament organizer which category they fall into.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Id like to see (and learn) the DI that helps peach survive a bomb at 100% lol...

Ask Praxis, he's a pro.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

I'd like to think I put my opponent into account. But really, I understand that D3 can chain grab off the edge, and that the opponent may or is better then me. If they are better, then they deserve to win the fight. That's a pretty simple concept.

This is very valid. But if they're already about as good as you, why give them a stage that basically gives them an auto-win? That's NOT skill, that's abusing the game.

But my point is that techniques that drain the fight of it's fluidity and instead focus on 0% to death glitches should be banned, and staged that are banned because of that should be unbanned, and then further analyzed. I think it's horrid that we are down to Four neutral stages, and that some people actually fight to take down Final Destination and Yoshi's Island.

Meh...neutral basically just means a stage to pick on random. You can't have stages like Pictochat being random. If you don't know why, then you should seriously do some more research before posting in here again(no offense meant by that). On your other point...we can't just ban CG'ing, because it's a legitimate strategy, and D3 can do it on any stage, so if we ban the technique that's just asking for trouble. That basically takes away D3's whole game, and you can't do that. There'd be a D3 getting banned every tournament every which way. So you ban the stage that he is utterly broken on, rather than the technique which would basically turn him into a helpless baby. However I do agree with you on the FD and YI. They should stay neutral for the sake of variety in the first match.

So if I've missed your point entirely, tell me, if not, think about my points. We're trying to make a tournament scene here, not trying to showcase the same characters playing the same maps over and over again.

Mmmm, those are kinda the same thing. There's a lot of stages that are still available, they're just not on random, they're counterpick. Pick whichever character you will.

And can someone explain to me what the Neutral/counterpick and counterpick/banned groups mean? I'm guessing those are stages which are decided by the tournament organizer which category they fall into.

I would, but I'm really tired right now, and I've got a CRAP load of homework to do. If no one does by the next three days or so, then I'll do it, heh.

 

[Deoxys]

the fact remains that if you go down there, BOTH players are close to a very small blastzone, not just the one who is camping. That's like, a DOUBLE whammy on the one who is forced to go down there. That way, if you don't get infinited, you STILL have a high chance of dying. Man, that's smart.

The ability for characters to have infinites isn't a double whammy, because being flung into the spot where infinites can occur can be avoided through successful approaches, and if you succeed in avoiding the spot, you will often be rewarded with a KO that gives you an advantage so you don't have to approach them if they try to camp there. In other words, the disadvantage of an infinite isn't insurmountable is because of the close blastzone. The impact of this stage as a counterpick doesn't prevent an equally skilled player from ever winning on it, as any character can go around them and bait an attack skillfully.

...You're joking, right? Give me a GOOD reason that Green Hill Zone is legal. Tell me why Mario Circuit was ever considered. Why is Corneria legal? No, the SBR was far better for Melee. And I really don't see why you would ever think that Pictochat is broken, because it's not. Neither is Pirate Ship. BROKEN stages are stages where almost everyone can infinite, where all you need to win is get a single grab off, like all of the ones I just posted.

You're joking, right? Give ME a GOOD reason that GHZ shouldn't be legal. That's your job if you think it should be banned. I can't explain why a stage is legal if I can't think of any reason you might think it shouldn't be.

Really? You can't see why someone would ever think that a stage where there are sometimes INVISABLE HAZARDS would be broken? I personally never thought it was, but it doesn't sound like a dumb first impression. (In Pirate Ship, ledgestalling can be crucial in a large number of matchups, but again, it's much less seemingly broken that Pictochat could ever be.)

Almost everyone can't infinite on Corneria! What are you talking about!?

I was only posting an example. Again, sarcasm detector.

If you wanted to be sarcastic, you probably should have posted an example like Bowser or something, so people don't think you're really serious and an idiot.

I conceed that you're right about pros being knowledgable, though. I thought knowledgable had a stronger connotation than it apparently does.

techniques that drain the fight of it's fluidity and instead focus on 0% to death glitches should be banned

It's not a glitch at all. It was deliberately made to be possible. It doesn't make sense to ban the technique, for the reasons Erich said.

And can someone explain to me what the Neutral/counterpick and counterpick/banned groups mean? I'm guessing those are stages which are decided by the tournament organizer which category they fall into.

Exactly what you thought. The point of this thread is to help TOs make informed decisions.

Ask Praxis, he's a pro.

I just asked him a page ago.



Having Starters on random is pretty stupid if Final Destination is possible. It's stupid to do anyway, because stage striking is ALWAYS more strategic and more fair.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

Just one thing: if you are camping underneath the fin of Corneria, why would the opponent even bother trying to approach? What forces you to be the one to approach? Unless they have a damage advantage, just sit there and wait.

 

[infomon]

Projectile spam PK fire!

 

[DuskMarthWater]

The ability for characters to have infinites isn't a double whammy, because being flung into the spot where infinites can occur can be avoided through successful approaches, and if you succeed in avoiding the spot, you will often be rewarded with a KO that gives you an advantage so you don't have to approach them if they try to camp there. In other words, the disadvantage of an infinite isn't insurmountable is because of the close blastzone. The impact of this stage as a counterpick doesn't prevent an equally skilled player from ever winning on it, as any character can go around them and bait an attack skillfully.

So...you're agreeing with me, but you're fighting me at the same time too? Huh...

Really, have you ever played anyone half decent on Corneria? I could pick Ike, hit you once, and run down to the bottom and sit there and wait for you, and I aint moving until you come to me. Then I control you and move you behind me with simple bthrow and grab you again in your lag, then proceed to fthrow you into whenever I feel like letting you go. But then...if I mess up after a while, you're still close to a blastzone and all I need to do is hit you with something semi poweful and you fly off and die. Double whammy explained? Now the other part that you don't seem to get, your successful approaches. Again what if your opponent is better at controlling the match thatn you are? Your successful approach is no longer 'successful.' You must always assume that your opponent will be a good fight, and if he/she is...then stages like this require no skill for good players to win on. Your argument assumes that you are ALWAYS better than your opponent. Your idea only works in theory. Obviously someone CP's there because they can infinite you, so you already have an advantage. And the wing on Corneria is concave, so infintes work even better on that particular wall than a straight wall, like PS1. The blastzone does not help you, it just makes it easier for you to die.

You're joking, right? Give ME a GOOD reason that GHZ shouldn't be legal. That's your job if you think it should be banned. I can't explain why a stage is legal if I can't think of any reason you might think it shouldn't be.

Really? You can't see why someone would ever think that a stage where there are sometimes INVISABLE HAZARDS would be broken? I personally never thought it was, but it doesn't sound like a dumb first impression. (In Pirate Ship, ledgestalling can be crucial in a large number of matchups, but again, it's much less seemingly broken that Pictochat could ever be.)

...and you just lost all credability right there.

GHZ should not be legal because D3 and Falco CG you to death(mostly D3). The stage breaks in the middle? SO WHAT?!?!? The match will be over so fast that the stage won't even have time to break(just so you know, D3's grabrange is about half the distance of Lucario/Wolf's fsmash. IT'S HUGE, probably even bigger than Marth's in Melee). Or how about you just camp on the edge of the blastzone once you're ahead and wait for them to come, then just bthrow them to their death?

Just one thing: if you are camping underneath the fin of Corneria, why would the opponent even bother trying to approach? What forces you to be the one to approach? Unless they have a damage advantage, just sit there and wait.

What is with people always assuming they are the better player? You said the same thing as Deoxys, but in a much shorter, concise way. And you're still both wrong.

 

[Deoxys]

So...you're agreeing with me, but you're fighting me at the same time too? Huh...

Lol, no. I'm just disagreeing with you... where did it look like I agreed?

Really, have you ever played anyone half decent on Corneria? I could pick Ike, hit you once, and run down to the bottom and sit there and wait for you, and I aint moving until you come to me. Then I control you and move you behind me with simple bthrow and grab you again in your lag, then proceed to fthrow you into whenever I feel like letting you go. But then...if I mess up after a while, you're still close to a blastzone and all I need to do is hit you with something semi poweful and you fly off and die. Double whammy explained? Now the other part that you don't seem to get, your successful approaches. Again what if your opponent is better at controlling the match thatn you are? Your successful approach is no longer 'successful.' You must always assume that your opponent will be a good fight, and if he/she is...then stages like this require no skill for good players to win on. Your argument assumes that you are ALWAYS better than your opponent. Your idea only works in theory. Obviously someone CP's there because they can infinite you, so you already have an advantage. And the wing on Corneria is concave, so infintes work even better on that particular wall than a straight wall, like PS1. The blastzone does not help you, it just makes it easier for you to die.

If your opponent is better at controlling the match than you are, you deserve to lose... Your point is that the stage isn't fair because if I let Ike grab me I lose!? If you let IC grab you on ANY STAGE you lose, and we're not all calling for an IC ban... Just play smart; don't get grabbed! What do you mean requires NO SKILL!? You just said that it comes down to who can control the match better.

And this thing about someone CPing there because they can infinite you just shows you don't understand why people CP Corneria.

The blastzone makes it easier for EITHER player to die... how is that unfair!?

...and you just lost all credability right there.

Lol, because I understand how one goes about suggesting a ban?

GHZ should not be legal because D3 and Falco CG you to death(mostly D3).

Lol, wtf!? Have you even looked at the stage? If you did, you'd probably realize it's CURVED in the middle... Yeah, GL CGing all the way across that with DDD.

Or how about you just camp on the edge of the blastzone once you're ahead and wait for them to come, then just bthrow them to their death?

You'd have to put your back to the nearby blast zone... if you get hit you might die instead... that's not broken at all....

What is with people always assuming they are the better player?

What is with you assuming I'm assuming I'm the better player? I'm assuming we're EQUAL.

 

[fkacyan]

You'd have to put your back to the nearby blast zone... if you get hit you might die instead... that's not broken at all....

Shieldgrab vs approach hit

I wonder which one wins more often in brawl.

 

[Moosetracks]

Could someone please explain to me why the summit's banned? Is it because of the fish?

 

[MysticKenji]

Lol, wtf!? Have you even looked at the stage? If you did, you'd probably realize it's CURVED in the middle... Yeah, GL CGing all the way across that with DDD.

DDD can CG up slopes.

Could someone please explain to me why the summit's banned? Is it because of the fish?

It interferes with gameplay at a level which can be found unacceptable in tournament play.

 

[The Milk Monster]

DDD can CG up slopes.


It interferes with gameplay at a level which can be found unacceptable in tournament play.

The fish is pretty ****ty.
The anti grav parts are pretty aggravating as well, though not much of a reason to ban it.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

If your opponent is better at controlling the match than you are, you deserve to lose... Your point is that the stage isn't fair because if I let Ike grab me I lose!? If you let IC grab you on ANY STAGE you lose, and we're not all calling for an IC ban... Just play smart; don't get grabbed! What do you mean requires NO SKILL!? You just said that it comes down to who can control the match better.

Again, if you ban the IC's grabs, then you destroy their entire game. And just so you know, their infinites are banned in most tournaments. You can only do it so many times before it's illegal.

And this thing about someone CPing there because they can infinite you just shows you don't understand why people CP Corneria.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!

The blastzone makes it easier for EITHER player to die... how is that unfair!?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!

Lol, because I understand how one goes about suggesting a ban?

Hehe, if you were any kind of experienced you would probably know something as simple as that.

Lol, wtf!? Have you even looked at the stage? If you did, you'd probably realize it's CURVED in the middle... Yeah, GL CGing all the way across that with DDD.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you realize that D3 can CG on ANY terrain? UP and in some (rare)cases down? Hehe, if you knew anything about what you were talking about, you would've known that. Your credibility just flew out the window. AGAIN!

You'd have to put your back to the nearby blast zone... if you get hit you might die instead... that's not broken at all....

See the post by Thio below mine.

What is with you assuming I'm assuming I'm the better player? I'm assuming we're EQUAL.

No you're not. You're assuming that your strategies will work, which they won't always if your opponent is better than you. What do you do then? That's what I mean.

 

[infomon]

Again, if you ban the IC's grabs, then you destroy their entire game. And just so you know, their infinites are banned in most tournaments. You can only do it so many times before it's illegal.

Not their entire game. They still have great throws (grab+smash), crazy desync tricks, powerful smashes, crazy-disjointed Uair... they're still quite decent without CGs, but prolly not high-tier.

But I don't think infinites are banned in most tournaments. Some, sure, but not most, and they're not banned in the SBR rules.

 

[Sinz]

Not their entire game. They still have great throws (grab+smash), crazy desync tricks, powerful smashes, crazy-disjointed Uair... they're still quite decent without CGs, but prolly not high-tier.

But I don't think infinites are banned in most tournaments. Some, sure, but not most, and they're not banned in the SBR rules.

Its just without it they have a much harder time winning.

Erich was over exaggerating, we know. But he made his point.

When I played against Melee1, if he couldn't chaingrab he lost. Flat out.

 

[infomon]

OK, fair enough.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Lol, wtf!? Have you even looked at the stage? If you did, you'd probably realize it's CURVED in the middle... Yeah, GL CGing all the way across that with DDD.

Welcome to my signature.

 

[Deoxys]

Welcome to my signature.

Why? I assume you sigged it because you find it comically idiotic, but what I said is true... Sure, you can CG across parts of the stage, but not the whole thing...

Shieldgrab vs approach hit

I wonder which one wins more often in brawl.

Pick a character that can threaten them from out of grab-range...

Hehe, if you were any kind of experienced you would probably know something as simple as that.

Then why didn't you know it?

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you realize that D3 can CG on ANY terrain? UP and in some (rare)cases down? Hehe, if you knew anything about what you were talking about, you would've known that. Your credibility just flew out the window. AGAIN!

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!eleven Do you realize that you have two sentences IN A ROW that contradict eachother? Your credibility just flew out the window. AGAIN!


Let's say that if you play one of the few characters that doesn't have projectiles, or enough range to threaten attacks outside of grab range, then if they pick Corneria, you just DON'T PLAY THAT CHARACTER. Just because ~4 characters "autolose" (if they get behind in %) to DDD on GHZ or against several characters on Corneria, that doesn't mean it should be banned. It just means that it's a strong CP. When ~20 of the characters autolose to DDD on a stage, then banning it is appropriate.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

No you're not. You're assuming that your strategies will work, which they won't always if your opponent is better than you. What do you do then? That's what I mean.

Wait.

So I'm LOSING to someone BETTER than me? Obviously, something is wrong. It's not fair that better players should win. I mean, that's not the point of a tournament or anything like that.

Moreover, your response to 'why do you have to approach?' is 'you do because the other guy knows how to make you.' This is a horrible argument. You are arguing that an answer exists without specifying any sort of answer. This is like saying that the world is flat because it can be proven that it is.

The ONLY way to force you to approach the fin would be to have a damage advantage on you. Because I'm pretty sure you can't spam the nose of the ship from the fin, so you can just sit on the nose. I admit that being behind in damage/KOs will force you to approach, because you lose if you don't try. So yes, you will have to fight in the fin area if you are behind. My point is that this will only happen if you are already losing.

The best characters in Brawl are the ones that can approach through an attempted shieldgrab. All major Brawl strategies take this into account. For Wolf, my secondary (yes, I realize how horrible a Wolf/Link combo is), the bair is so good because it can't be shield-grabbed when done correctly. Projectile spamming is good because you can't shield grab it. In short, if you can't approach someone because they will always shieldgrab you, you have no options and have already lost.

Why is this relevant? Because anyone who can approach D3 on a flat surface can probably approach a camping D3, or stop him from setting it up. Wolf can jump to the thruster and laser spam from a distance. Link can throw bombs from the top of the fin. In addition, in order to go straight into the infinite, D3 has to be facing the wall. For a simplified approach, just jump over him. Now you have your back to a blast zone, but he has his back to a wall. Suddenly, he's in more danger of getting infinited than you are. Yes, he can always roll behind you or something, and he probably has an overall advantage in that area simply because of the threat of the CG, but it's not like you have no options.

I'm not saying Corneria shouldn't be banned, I'm saying that camping underneath the fine is a bad reason.

Again, if you ban the IC's grabs, then you destroy their entire game. And just so you know, their infinites are banned in most tournaments. You can only do it so many times before it's illegal.

Only to the point that you can't stall by infiniting. You have to finish it when you can kill them. You can take as many stocks as you want with the infinite. At least, at any tournament worth talking about. This is unrelated to anything else I said and I don't know why I bothered.

 

[Sinz]

Let's say that if you play one of the few characters that doesn't have projectiles, or enough range to threaten attacks outside of grab range, then if they pick Corneria, you just DON'T PLAY THAT CHARACTER. Just because ~4 characters "autolose" (if they get behind in %) to DDD on GHZ or against several characters on Corneria, that doesn't mean it should be banned. It just means that it's a strong CP. When ~20 of the characters autolose to DDD on a stage, then banning it is appropriate.

So... I assume you've never played against a good D3.

One grab(getting the one grab. Not saying one grab kills you.) is pretty much all it takes for D3 to be able to kill you on GHZ. If he is at the top of the slope he just does a bthrow, and starts bair camping. You lose. If you get grabbed halfway down the slope, you lose. If your character can chaingrabbed by D3, you lose on that stage.

D3, is ******** to approach on Corneria. If your on the fin, have fun getting Uair'd. If you go down, have fun getting *****. If you get chaingrabbed toward the wall, you lose. If you get chaingrabbed toward the blast zone, you tend to be screwed. he just finishes you off with either a dthrow to fair, or fthrow bairs.

Moreover, your response to 'why do you have to approach?' is 'you do because the other guy knows how to make you.' This is a horrible argument. You are arguing that an answer exists without specifying any sort of answer. This is like saying that the world is flat because it can be proven that it is.

The ONLY way to force you to approach the fin would be to have a damage advantage on you. Because I'm pretty sure you can't spam the nose of the ship from the fin, so you can just sit on the nose. I admit that being behind in damage/KOs will force you to approach, because you lose if you don't try. So yes, you will have to fight in the fin area if you are behind. My point is that this will only happen if you are already losing.

The best characters in Brawl are the ones that can approach through an attempted shieldgrab. All major Brawl strategies take this into account. For Wolf, my secondary (yes, I realize how horrible a Wolf/Link combo is), the bair is so good because it can't be shield-grabbed when done correctly. Projectile spamming is good because you can't shield grab it. In short, if you can't approach someone because they will always shieldgrab you, you have no options and have already lost.

Why is this relevant? Because anyone who can approach D3 on a flat surface can probably approach a camping D3, or stop him from setting it up. Wolf can jump to the thruster and laser spam from a distance. Link can throw bombs from the top of the fin. In addition, in order to go straight into the infinite, D3 has to be facing the wall. For a simplified approach, just jump over him. Now you have your back to a blast zone, but he has his back to a wall. Suddenly, he's in more danger of getting infinited than you are. Yes, he can always roll behind you or something, and he probably has an overall

D3, as I said is ********. If your opponent doesn't know how to make you approach, your playing scrubs. And loads of them. D3, can lead into his grabs too ya know. Against shield pressure tactics, we start playing more aerial, leading in with an autocancel'd bair, an autocancel'd Dair, both of these lead to EASY grabs. Wolf is easy to play against, his projectile is the easiest in the game to perfect shield. D3, is easy to play as, and wolf is even easier to play against.

Plus, your playing wolf and link, if d3 lands a dthrow. You get ***** to the other side of the stage. Wolf and Link are not hard to edgeguard.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Then why didn't you know it?

What kind of question is that? You're arguing points of stupidity now. Honestly, I answered this question in the very section you quoted from me. Good job.

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!eleven Do you realize that you have two sentences IN A ROW that contradict eachother? Your credibility just flew out the window. AGAIN!

...LAWL? Sooooo, I'm to understand that when one says something and then backs it up with facts in the next sentence they are contradictory? I said that he can CG on all terrain, and then went on to say that sometimes he cannot CG downhill, but he can on other downhills. Yea, sounds very contradictory. Hmmmm, it sounds to me like you don't know your English all that well. Tsch, tsch. Go look up what contradictory means.

Quit arguing Deoxys, because you're going to lose.

Moreover, your response to 'why do you have to approach?' is 'you do because the other guy knows how to make you.' This is a horrible argument. You are arguing that an answer exists without specifying any sort of answer. This is like saying that the world is flat because it can be proven that it is.

And now you see the light. I am arguing this, because you are obviously arguing that you are better than your opponent, which (no offense) you probably aren't. You are arguing the same way, because all I ever hear is 'all I have to do to prevent my opponent from luring me is shoot a projectile'. You are using the same horrible argument, but you're on the opposite side, the side where everyone WANTS to be. Circular reasoning.

The ONLY way to force you to approach the fin would be to have a damage advantage on you. Because I'm pretty sure you can't spam the nose of the ship from the fin, so you can just sit on the nose. I admit that being behind in damage/KOs will force you to approach, because you lose if you don't try. So yes, you will have to fight in the fin area if you are behind. My point is that this will only happen if you are already losing.

And my point is that it's very easy to make you start losing.

The best characters in Brawl are the ones that can approach through an attempted shieldgrab. All major Brawl strategies take this into account. For Wolf, my secondary (yes, I realize how horrible a Wolf/Link combo is), the bair is so good because it can't be shield-grabbed when done correctly. Projectile spamming is good because you can't shield grab it. In short, if you can't approach someone because they will always shieldgrab you, you have no options and have already lost.

...Nope. I hope you know what perfect shielding is, 'cause it's gonna screw you over. And your bair can be shield-grabbed by a D3, who has the grabrange of all the other characters combined(exaggeration). All they need to do is time it right. And projectile spamming? Like I said, perfect shielding. And guess what else? D3 has a projectile TOO!!!!! And it's better than Wolf's or Link's. And your last sentence is pretty much correct.

Why is this relevant? Because anyone who can approach D3 on a flat surface can probably approach a camping D3, or stop him from setting it up. Wolf can jump to the thruster and laser spam from a distance. Link can throw bombs from the top of the fin. In addition, in order to go straight into the infinite, D3 has to be facing the wall. For a simplified approach, just jump over him. Now you have your back to a blast zone, but he has his back to a wall. Suddenly, he's in more danger of getting infinited than you are. Yes, he can always roll behind you or something, and he probably has an overall advantage in that area simply because of the threat of the CG, but it's not like you have no options.

Mmmmm no. Sorry but no. D3's waddle-dees and gordos reduce your shield very quickly, they do not disappear after hitting your shield, they can possibly attack you if you don't kill them off, and then that leaves you open to another waddle-dee or gordo being thrown at you. And Link's bombs? Any good player can figure something out around that. Just jump up into the air and hit Link with the uair before he even gets a chance to throw the bomb, or eat through it and hit him anyways. Besides, the bomb is a slow projectile that is not particularly spammable, so it won't be that effective. Or I could simply grab the top of the fin, abuse invincibility frames and continuously launch waddle-dees at you, which you will either destroy or get hit by. I can do that ALL day, because you can't approach me or else I hit you with an aerial, and you can't hit me with projectiles because I'm below you with a wall between us and I'm invincible. So yea, you have no options. You approach me or I'll sit there and spam projectiles all day until you get hit, and then I'll just camp out and wait for you. And if you decide to reverse it so that you're on the bottom and I'm on the top...then you're already in the best spot to be infinited!

Do you see what I mean? Hopefully.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Deoxys, I siggy things that are funny in either a comical way or a way that shows the ignorance and stupidity of the person who said it. That quote seems to fit both ways, so it went in my siggy.

P.S. Sup, Erich.

 

[Deoxys]

doublepost

 

[Deoxys]

Deoxys, I siggy things that are funny in either a comical way or a way that shows the ignorance and stupidity of the person who said it. That quote seems to fit both ways, so it went in my siggy.

P.S. Sup, Erich.

I'm not stupid (even though that post was). I thought he made it sound like he could CG in any position on the stage all the way across. Besides, if you get grabbed by prepared IC you basically lose a stock straight away on any stage, and that's not broken.


Regardless of my wrongness, that still doesn't support GHZ as they can just pick a character that DOESN'T get CG'd. In other words, it's a very strong CP, but it doesn't warrant a ban by rendering enough of the cast unviable like Shadow Moses Island does.

So... I assume you've never played against a good D3.

Could be, but I think it's more likely because I just play as MK.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

I'm not stupid (even though that post was). I thought he made it sound like he could CG in any position on the stage all the way across. Besides, if you get grabbed by prepared IC you basically lose a stock straight away on any stage, and that's not broken.

Could be, but I think it's more likely because I just play as MK.

Mmmmm...not necessarily. It just means that you get CG'ed all the way across the stage for 20-ish+%. On GHZ, however, you just die. And remember that you don't have to CG on that stage to be the winner. You can just bthrow camp too. And most of the characters that are seen in tourney can be CGed, by either D3 or Falco. MK can be CGed by Falco, so depending on your position on the stage you're screwed. A lot of other characters that D3 doesn't get go to Falco. But anyways, the point is you can still bthrow camp and win. And you can do it with D3 because of his freakin' projectile that is so much better than almost all the other projectiles in the game. Though I will admit that GHZ is not nearly as broken as Corneria, as there is a wall there, so nobody can escape the infinite CG, and for other camping reasons explained last time I posted.

P.S. Oh nothin'. How goes it After Dawn?

 

[Sinz]

Could be, but I think it's more likely because I just play as MK.

So what. Why should I care if you just play as MK.
Bthrow ***** you too. And GHZ is horrible for MK too.

How do you do in tournaments? Just wondering.

 

[Deoxys]

So what. Why should I care if you just play as MK.
Bthrow ***** you too. And GHZ is horrible for MK too.

Because MK doesn't get CG'd by DDD... Lol, I hope someone picks GHZ instead of Corneria or Yoshi's Island!

WTF I KEEP DOUBLE POSTING SCREW ME!

 

[Deoxys]

Mmmmm...not necessarily. It just means that you get CG'ed all the way across the stage for 20-ish+%. On GHZ, however, you just die.

You still die if you get grabbed by IC anywhere...

And remember that you don't have to CG on that stage to be the winner. You can just bthrow camp too. And most of the characters that are seen in tourney can be CGed, by either D3 or Falco. MK can be CGed by Falco, so depending on your position on the stage you're screwed. A lot of other characters that D3 doesn't get go to Falco. But anyways, the point is you can still bthrow camp and win.

Well then play a character on that stage that doesn't lose to a camping DDD. They choose the stage and character before you pick your character, so just pick one you know will do well there.

And you can do it with D3 because of his freakin' projectile that is so much better than almost all the other projectiles in the game.

You can play someone that can bthrow camp well against DDD. The point is, you still have options that allow you to do well on that stage with several characters. At least I assume this is the reasoning the SBR used.

 

[Sinz]

Well then play a character on that stage that doesn't lose to a camping DDD. They choose the stage and character before you pick your character, so just pick one you know will do well there.

What? Counterpicking goes like this.
Stage is chosen by the loser. Then the winner chooses the character, then the loser chooses the character.

:/

You can play someone that can bthrow camp well against DDD. The point is, you still have options that allow you to do well on that stage with several characters. At least I assume this is the reasoning the SBR used.

If I ever see you in real life. Money Match me please. I want 100$

 

[DuskMarthWater]

You still die if you get grabbed by IC anywhere...

You know, I honestly didn't know what IC was until just now. Makes sense. Still, that's not necessarily true, and I think that their infinites should be reduced to a certain number of times before they must stop, as in Melee.

Well then play a character on that stage that doesn't lose to a camping DDD. They choose the stage and character before you pick your character, so just pick one you know will do well there.

Well...what if you don't have a secondary? You're assuming that everyone plays multiple characters well, which not everyone does. D3 is still capable of CGing more than half the cast(something like 72%?), so that's a majority. If the majority of the cast can be CGed, then why is the stage legal that he is absolutely busted on? Because 80-90% of the time, you will be fighting someone you are able to CG. That's a majority, so it should be banned. You can't err on the winning side. I don't play any other characters other than Lucario, because I do pretty well considering, but if a D3 were to pick this stage...I'd be absolutely screwed. Hands-down. See what I mean? You can't just say something like that, because it only works in theory.

You can play someone that can bthrow camp well against DDD. The point is, you still have options that allow you to do well on that stage with several characters. At least I assume this is the reasoning the SBR used.

Who can bthrow camp well against D3 again? NO ONE. He has more grab range then everyone else in the game. A LOT MORE.

And here's the other thing that bothers me...why does everyone think that the SBR is ALWAYS right? Because they are not. They're all humans, half of them left and so half of them are new, and they all make mistakes. Their decision is not the end-all, be-all, and I believe they made a STUPID choice making GHZ legal, because you will not have very many matches there in the first place, and the ones that do go down will have a high ratio of D3 CGing people to their death in less than a minute, as the majority of people play characters he can CG.

 

[Deoxys]

What? Counterpicking goes like this.
Stage is chosen by the loser. Then the winner chooses the character, then the loser chooses the character.

:/


If I ever see you in real life. Money Match me please. I want 100$

Just because I was ******** doesn't mean you have to be a douche. That said, if I do see you, it will be because I have become confident that I will beat you and it will have to be for a lot more than $100 to be worth my while getting to bloody New Mexico.



Anyway, now that I know how the game is played, it is obvious to me that GHZ and Corneria are unfair....

Sorry I had you guys spend the time arguing with me when I misunderstood something so crucial. I just slowed the discussion down.

What do you guys think about this:

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Pokémon Stadium 1


Counter
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino
Brinstar
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Skyworld

 

[Sinz]

That said, if I do see you, it will be because I have become confident that I will beat you and it will have to be for a lot more than $100 to be worth my while getting to bloody Texas.

NM isn't in Texas :/

EDIT: You just edited :/

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Pokémon Stadium 1- I am against this one, because of the possibility of falling though the stage, and also about how a bunch of characters have easy to do wall infinites. Also, the gimp ledges don't help too much.


Counter
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino
Brinstar
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes- I hate this stage :/ I lost a tournament because of the klaptraps :/
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Skyworld- This stage can be pretty brutal against any Ike mainers, tether recoverers(I dunno.), and the earthbound players. How easily broken everything is makes it almost an auto win stage against tether recoveries, and vs Ikes. However, that is VERY debatable. It is an awkward stage... I guess.

comments in the quote.

 

[Deoxys]

What do you mean by the possibilty of falling through the stage!? Some crazy glitch I don't know about? What do you suggest as a 5th starter? Or do you think it should just be BF, SV, and YI?

Also, I agree that the klaptraps are super gay, but they only appear over the water. And yeah, Skyworld is a really tough one, but gimping 2 characters (Ike and ZSS) (what hurts the Earthbound characters so much?) is not enough to ban a stage IMO.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Anyway, now that I know how the game is played, it is obvious to me that GHZ and Corneria are unfair....

Sorry I had you guys spend the time arguing with me when I misunderstood something so crucial. I just slowed the discussion down.

Are you serious? Wow...I respect you a lot more for admitting that. Don't worry too much about it. Sometimes I kinda blow my top, but...it works, I guess? Negative criticism, no better way to make someone improve. That's what prompted me to get better.

What do you guys think about this:

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Pokémon Stadium 1


Counter
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino
Brinstar
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Skyworld

As for your list...it's not bad. I agree with the stuff Sinz said too, though the Skyworld thing is debatable for being banned or not. PS1 has been debated on a lot in the past too for placement.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Pokémon Stadium 1


Counter
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Halberd
Delfino
Brinstar
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Skyworld

Skyworld is really the only one I would consider taking off, though I hate Norfair, It's fair.

 

[Deoxys]

Pokémon Stadium 1- I am against this one, because of the possibility of falling though the stage

Anyone familiar with what he's talking about here?

And Erich, thanks for the respect!

 

[Sinz]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=3905491

^right there.

 

[Daimonster]

Stage Greivances

Hello, I hope to make some kind of contribution to the discussion. My main objective is to debate the legality of a few stages. Those that I do not bring into discussion are already marked banned on the list. I will cover the stages in starter, starter/counter, counterpick, counter/ban format. Some sections will be broad (I agree to them) and others very much in depth (argue against them).

Starters: I have no problem with the FD,BF,SV,PS1 and YI starter strike out system. In fact, it's a pretty good system.

Starter/Counter: These are all great stages. They do not influence the fight very much. All changes to the stages are easily adaptable. Some sections of Delfino and PS1 lead to a minor fraction of what I consider stalling. Due to the 8 minute time limit, not much of a big deal on these stages.

Counterpicks:
Brinstar-Solid map

Corneria- Bad map: Stage attacks players randomly (hard to see coming due to camera angles), extremely low ceiling and horizontal blast zones, cave of gimmicks, fin camping, etc. Some characters are heavily beefed on this map i.e Gdub and d3.

Distant Planet- Average: Depending on how often the rain comes, players can camp the lowest edge for a strong map position advantage. I believe fighting on this stage boils down to a transition of fighting based on position; rather than using your character's moveset in order to score a KO. Not ban worthy in my opinion, however the strategies employed on this map can be rather annoying.

Frigate Orpheon: Great map.

Green Hill Zone- Bad map. Changes matchups heavily in favor of characters who have easy lock and chaingrab setups. Rewards grab options ~9x's greater than attacking or jumping to attack. This map is nothing but a curved version of bride of eldin and should be considered for ban.

Jungle Japes: Good stage

Luigi's Mansion: Good stage

Norfair: Bad map. After changing from loving this map to realizing that it should be banned. I feel bad for ever considering this map counterpick worthy. Map attacks force players to place themselves in disadvantageous positions at random. This map would be fine without the changes in gameplay.

Pictochat: Average map. This map goes along with my beliefs towards Pokemon Stadium 2. The map changes warrant small advantages towards certain characters, but not enough for a ban.

Pirate Ship: Great map.

PS2: Average map

Rainbow Cruise: Great map

YI (pipes)- Good map. A combination of Corneria, Green hill zone and Distant Planet. However, this map is playable due to the blocks and section in the middle. These moveable platforms make chaingrabbing off the map less realistic and lessens the ability of characters with strong lock setups. I highly approve of this map as a reasonable counterpick for characters with chaingrabs and locks.

Counter/Ban:

Green Greens: Average map. The center of this map makes certain characters such as d3 very strong. However this section can be avoided by destroying the blocks or staying on the left and right side. Linear variation of Yoshi's Island (pipes).

Mario Circuit: Bad map. Combination of both Port Town Aero Dive and bridge of Eldin. Makes characters susceptible to lock setups and grabs infinitely weaker. Forces many characters to place themselves in highly disadvantageous positions i.e Upper platform. Bad competitive map overall.

Onett: Good map. Walls make for lock setups and chaingrabs very effective. However, there is lots of room on this map to maneuver about said tactics and also frequent cars that disrupt these lock/chaingrab setups. Very reasonable counterpick stage.

Port Town Aero Dive: Bad Map. Makes characters with poor recoveries infinitely worse. For example, olimar, link, wolf etc. Players should not feel opted to change characters for significantly game altering matchups.

Skyworld: Bad map. Apply same reasons for Port Town for this stage. Places characters at strongly disadvantageous positions constantly due to the map.

Well that's my take on several maps in the starter/counterpick/counterban list. Do discuss.
In addition, a small rant...

Being forced to pick a different character due to a stage level change is rediculous. There isn't a single fighting game other than the smash series that influences players to change their character due to a stage change. The maps should make a small difference, not change a matchup from a 6:4 to a 8:2. I believe the stages above, in which are marked bad, should be considered for ban.

 

[Deoxys]

Norfair: Bad map. After changing from loving this map to realizing that it should be banned. I feel bad for ever considering this map counterpick worthy. Map attacks force players to place themselves in disadvantageous positions at random. This map would be fine without the changes in gameplay.

What? Please give an example of this.

Green Greens: Average map. The center of this map makes certain characters such as d3 very strong. However this section can be avoided by destroying the blocks or staying on the left and right side. Linear variation of Yoshi's Island (pipes).

We discussed Green Greens extensively ~5 pages ago. That said, it should be banned because there are times when you grab a character, and then a bomb falls randomly nearby, and you can throw them into the falling bomb for a low % KO.

Onett: Good map. Walls make for lock setups and chaingrabs very effective. However, there is lots of room on this map to maneuver about said tactics and also frequent cars that disrupt these lock/chaingrab setups. Very reasonable counterpick stage.

DDD can just camp on the sides of the stage, occaisonally dodging cars. In this situation, he's virtually impossible to approach without dying against much of the cast.

Skyworld: Bad Map. Makes characters with poor recoveries infinitely worse. For example, olimar, link, wolf etc. Players should not feel opted to change characters for significantly game altering matchups. Places characters at strongly disadvantageous positions constantly due to the map.

Skyworld only really hurts ZSS, DK, and Ike as far as I know. Olimar, Ivysaur, and (to a lesser extent) ZSS die when they're far off the stage against anyone who can edgeguard well on any stage except Norfair.

Being forced to pick a different character due to a stage level change is rediculous. There isn't a single fighting game other than the smash series that influences players to change their character due to a stage change. The maps should make a small difference, not change a matchup from a 6:4 to a 8:2. I believe the stages above, in which are marked bad, should be considered for ban.

Rainbow Cruise changes matchups from 6:4 to 8:2, and you say it's "great."

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=3905491

^right there.

Wow... that's... disgusting... How can we best remedy this terrible glitch? The best way I can think of is if it happens to a player, the match must be replayed.

If we don't make some sort of rule to deal with this, it HAS to be CP, in which case, what should the 5th Starter be (3 starters is pretty dumb, because against Snake, for instance, you have to strike SV, and then the Snake player just gets to pick if he wants YI or BF)? Right now I'm thinking Halberd is more fair than Lylat Cruise.