Official Stage Legality Discussion

[habaker91]

Getting used to the cars? No, not really. I still get killed by them even when I'm not supposed to. I'll kill my opponent, then as I land from an aerial or something, I'll just die. At 70-80 $. Not cool, and not really avoidable.

Also, stages such as frigate orpheon can cause kills as you come down from the air, you just need to be more careful.

The level shouldn't be banned because you won't be killed in a random situation, you'll only be affected by the level when your own ability falters, which is true for most CPs

 

[Guilhe]

Frigate Orpheon at least warns you it is about to turn around and you should be very high to be affected. Nobody would go that high deliberately if not by chasing someone and, after the warning, they would immediately fast fall to safety.

Mute City by the other side offers no warnings and far more kill potential. In the last section where the platform stops before repeating its course, there are no platforms where the player can escape from the racing cars. If you are Kirby, Metaknight, Pit, Jigglypuff or other characters who can stay airborne for a long time, no problems. But if you are Bowser, DK, (sob) Ike or other characters that can’t stay in air for too long and/or remain stationary momentarily after using their UpB, potential death at 50%.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

A couple things I would like to mention, in Port Town Aero Dive, most of the time the background gives you a warning a good deal ahead. Also many times where there are no platforms, you can run to the side. I am not quite sure where I stand on this as a whole, just thought I should clear up some misconceptions.

Post 500 ^_^

 

[habaker91]

Frigate Orpheon at least warns you it is about to turn around and you should be very high to be affected. Nobody would go that high deliberately if not by chasing someone and, after the warning, they would immediately fast fall to safety.

Mute City by the other side offers no warnings and far more kill potential. In the last section where the platform stops before repeating its course, there are no platforms where the player can escape from the racing cars. If you are Kirby, Metaknight, Pit, Jigglypuff or other characters who can stay airborne for a long time, no problems. But if you are Bowser, DK, (sob) Ike or other characters that can’t stay in air for too long and/or remain stationary momentarily after using their UpB, potential death at 50%.

Frigate Orpheon can kill on the bottom left and right areas, on the actual stage.

Also, the "starting line" section to which you are referring to can be avoided by hanging out near the the side of the track, the walls prevent this from being a walk off.
The only other section with no platforms is a walk off, but you're given much more maneuvering room. Don't forget that the car's positions are predictable, and most of the time give foreseeable warning anyway.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Then don't go in that area. Get accustomed to the stage. If you're good enough to be in tournaments, you're going to have to be good enough to know what to and what not to do on certain stage (never try drop-immediate up B with Meta Knight on Lylat Cruise, for example). Plus, Frigate Orpheon is closer to being a neutral than it is a counterpick. In fact, I won't be surprised if the liberal voters in the SBR make it a neutral stage.

 

[DarthLuigi36]

Singles:
Castle Siege Recommended: Counterpick
Delfino Plaza Recommended: Counterpick

I could go for Neutral with these, but I won't argue too much if they end up being counterpicks.

Hanenbow Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Jungle Japes Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Norfair Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Pirate Ship Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium 2 Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Yoshi's Island Melee Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick

Big Blue Recommended: Banned
Corneria Recommended: Banned
Green Hill Zone Recommended: Banned
Rumble Falls Recommended: Banned
Mario Circuit Recommended: Banned
Shadow Moses Island Recommended: Banned

All of these seem like good Counterpicks to me. Some are more advantageous in some situations, but it seems like that's the point of a counterpick... the bolded ones I am more adamant to have set as counterpick.

Other than my few small changes, I actually really like how the list is coming along. Good job, guys.

 

[Charizard92]

On Castle Siege and Delphino plaza: You know those walk-offs that appears after awhile (I could care less about water). That is the reason why we CPd these stages. Walk offs allow for characters like Dedede to chain grab someone, and allows characters like Charizard to Bthrow someone off, and a character like Squirtle to grab someone facing the boundary and use an Fthrow or Dthrow.

On Hanenbow: there are complaints of a mini loop made by Fox, but its real problem is that it is on the edge of being considered large, which means there are problems, but I personally have no clue why its banned, I just don't like it as much as PS2, which brings us too...

On PS2: I have absoloutley no Idea why this stage is banned. It is just annoying that's all. It is only slightly lower than it's counterpart, PS1, on the legal list, but they are solid CPs (PS2 means Pokemon Stadium 2, like PS1 means the original Pokemon stadium, don't think they stand for the playstation)

On Pirate Ship: Somewhere along the lines of bombs, an annoying catapult, an instant KO area, and that is all I can come up with, that is likely enough to ban it.

On Big blue: *HACK* that stage is definitely not legal. We banned it for the track and the track alone. Hit it, and you're practically dead.

On Corneria: There is a wall on the right side that promotes infinites.

On Shadow Moses: There is a dual problem with this stage. Early on, it is a place for easy infinites but harder KOs for those without a good/reliance on vertical KOs. After a Wall or two is destroyed, there are walk offs, which promote the reasons Castle siege and Delphino plaza are CP.

 

[zeldanerd143]

well

well in my opinion u are a true brawler when u can be good at EVERY stage and all the banning stages is BS

 

[Charizard92]

OK *HACK* New Pork City *Hack* Temple *hack* 75m *hack* now you get it?

 

[Talazala]

Hanenbow just freaks me out, and can occasionally obsorb attacks meant for your foe. I find Mario circut fine though, since it gives you a warning before the cars come.

What about rainbow cruise?

 

[fkacyan]

I could go for Neutral with these, but I won't argue too much if they end up being counterpicks.

All of these seem like good Counterpicks to me. Some are more advantageous in some situations, but it seems like that's the point of a counterpick... the bolded ones I am more adamant to have set as counterpick.

Other than my few small changes, I actually really like how the list is coming along. Good job, guys.

The bolded ones are the worst ones on the list, with the exception of maybe PS2.

Pirate Ship is banned because there are two characters who win by staying in the water on the left side. I mean, they beat everybody. MasterDave01 got it banned at Clash of the Titans because he nearly beat M2K there. M2K threestocked him in the first match within replay time.

Shadow Moses is one of the hardest levels to KO on, and when the walls are gone, it's terribly easy to stall until they come back.

Big Blue? Hello, Xona.

Corneria has the wall. Too many characters can take advantage of that; You shouldn't be playing the stage as well as your opponent.

Hanenbow has easy-to-exploit loops for several characters.

 

[Mic_128]

Pirate Ship is banned because there are two characters who win by staying in the water on the left side. I mean, they beat everybody. MasterDave01 got it banned at Clash of the Titans because he nearly beat M2K there. M2K threestocked him in the first match within replay time.

Maybe MK just hasn't played on the level and so didn't know what to do?

Also, what characters are they and what do they do?

 

[habaker91]

Then don't go in that area. Get accustomed to the stage. If you're good enough to be in tournaments, you're going to have to be good enough to know what to and what not to do on certain stage (never try drop-immediate up B with Meta Knight on Lylat Cruise, for example). Plus, Frigate Orpheon is closer to being a neutral than it is a counterpick. In fact, I won't be surprised if the liberal voters in the SBR make it a neutral stage.

I wasn't arguing against Orpheon, just making a point.
This also applies to Aero Dive, know when the cars are coming and where they'll be on the stage, don't put yourself in the position to be hit by the cars after a move, etc., and you'll be fine.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Hanenbow just freaks me out, and can occasionally obsorb attacks meant for your foe. I find Mario circut fine though, since it gives you a warning before the cars come.

Ugh, we've already went over this a few times...it's banned because of its walk-off blastzones, not the cars.

 

[Amigo]

AfterDawn I feel there is no reason why Jungle Japes should be banned. The water is too high? That is not even an argument, that is just stating a fact about the stage. Even if it were any lower/higher it would not make a difference. The crocs can gimp your recovery of people who rely on vertical recoveries but you said it yourself; every stage has its advantages and disadvantages.

Overall if you want to survive on Jungle Japes don't fall off, and even if you do it's not that hard to get back on.

 

[deepseadiva]

The thing about Jungle Japes is the KO Totodiles. Though, like I've said in the past: the only way to take advantage of them is to KNOCK THE OPPONENT OFF THE STAGE - a core game mechanic.

Jungle Japes is a definite counter-pick.

 

[__V]

I'm sure this has probably been brought up before...

Any stage with a corner can't be used. Why? Half the characters can inf-combo you into a corner. Dedede can inf-grab corners.

Any stage which goes off the map can't be used. Dedede can inf-grab off the map.

Sadly, this leaves few stages where you can have fair tournament play...

 

[x After Dawn x]

AfterDawn I feel there is no reason why Jungle Japes should be banned. The water is too high? That is not even an argument, that is just stating a fact about the stage. Even if it were any lower/higher it would not make a difference. The crocs can gimp your recovery of people who rely on vertical recoveries but you said it yourself; every stage has its advantages and disadvantages.

Overall if you want to survive on Jungle Japes don't fall off, and even if you do it's not that hard to get back on.

The crocodile isn't why I'm banning it...the problem is that the water's current is too fast and any character with slow aerial movement who gets knocked off the left side is pretty much dead.

 

[Sinz]

poor Dawn... having to reexplain everything because people are too lazy to read...


Also, have fun against Falco on Jungle Japes.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

What about rainbow cruise?

cp the wall is not permenant...there are no permanant walk offs...

 

[DuskMarthWater]

NOOB INFESTATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hello everyone. It's been a while since I last visited here. I needed a break after being patient for so long, but...break's over. Eat flame nooblets! No but seriously, stop polluting the thread with stupidity.

I'm gonna post some stuff at random now, so just read it I guess?

1. Jungle Japes. This stage is banned because 1.) the water kills EVERYBODY if you fall in on the left side. This includes being meteor smashed into the water by this little thing a lot of you seem to be forgetting: THE OPPONENT. The current sweeps you away until you die before you regain control of your character, and if you happen to fall in a little more to the right than normal, great? If you're not someone like Jiggs, MK, Pit, or D3, you're still gonna die because you can jump out of the water but still not make enough horizontal distance to the right to make it back to the stage. 2.) The Klaptrap is an insta-KO, furthering your hopelessness if you fall into the water. Those two reasons are enough, hopefully.

2. Big Blue. Why is this stage being discussed again? If you think this stage should be legal...there is no insult or witty line to describe your stupidity.

3. The whole "If you're good you should be able to play on every stage" garbage. That line is sooooooooo stupid. You can't be good on stages like New Pork City or 75m. You just shoot one laser with Fox and run around in circles until the matches time limit runs out, or if you're not following tourney rules and have no time limit, run around in circles until your opponent gives up. Or you could pick Sonic and attack them and then run away, as he's faster than everybody else. Seriously, you all need to think before you say something.

I think that's all the harassment I've got for the moment. Good to see this thread still active. Talk to the veterans later.

 

[Charizard92]

On Big Blue: correction Erich, there is nothing you can say to express your stupidity... that you can say on television.

 

[fkacyan]

Maybe MK just hasn't played on the level and so didn't know what to do?

Also, what characters are they and what do they do?

He watched the same player play a match on the same stage and win a set earlier, so there's no way he didn't know what was coming.

Toon Link: Gets in water. Jumps and throws boomerang / shoots arrows. Opponents who approach miss at the airdodge and get spiked by his dair.

G&W: Uses upB to get into the air. If the opponent is close, they dair them into the water, upB, and repeat until high percents, at which point they fair for an easy kill. If the opponent moves away, G&W flips sausages at them.

 

[deepseadiva]

The crocodile isn't why I'm banning it...the problem is that the water's current is too fast and any character with slow aerial movement who gets knocked off the left side is pretty much dead.

Once again. WHY would someone be in the water in the first place? They were knocked off, EXACTLY how you play this game. There is NO OTHER WAY to take advantage of this.

And even then, the handicap horizontally-recovering characters have on this stage make Jungle Japes a good counter-pick BY DEFINITION.

1. Jungle Japes. This stage is banned because 1.) the water kills EVERYBODY if you fall in on the left side.

No it doesn't. Only characters with poor horizontal recovery. Like I've said, this is why it's a good counter-pick.

This includes being meteor smashed into the water by this little thing a lot of you seem to be forgetting: THE OPPONENT. The current sweeps you away until you die before you regain control of your character, and if you happen to fall in a little more to the right than normal, great?

If you didn't notice, a meteor smash normally kills most characters on ANY stage. Normally, the consensus is to NOT be meteor smashed.

If you're not someone like Jiggs, MK, Pit, or D3, you're still gonna die because you can jump out of the water but still not make enough horizontal distance to the right to make it back to the stage.

Read above. Jungle Japes is a good counter-pick for better developed horizontal recoveries.

2.) The Klaptrap is an insta-KO, furthering your hopelessness if you fall into the water. Those two reasons are enough, hopefully.

They're not. The Klaptraps can only be taken advantage of by keeping the opponent off the stage - in other words - by PLAYING SMASH BROS CORRECTLY.

 

[Cat Fight]

He watched the same player play a match on the same stage and win a set earlier, so there's no way he didn't know what was coming.

Toon Link: Gets in water. Jumps and throws boomerang / shoots arrows. Opponents who approach miss at the airdodge and get spiked by his dair.

G&W: Uses upB to get into the air. If the opponent is close, they dair them into the water, upB, and repeat until high percents, at which point they fair for an easy kill. If the opponent moves away, G&W flips sausages at them.

Mmm, but wouldn't characters like Link, Zelda, Snake, Ness, Lucas, Tink (heh), possibly some others I may be leaving out, discourage this sort of tactic? They each have projectiles that you can control, or that have an arc or large blast radius.

Just for the sake of debate.

Worse comes to worse, you can wait for the air or land transitions, too.

 

[AlexX]

He watched the same player play a match on the same stage and win a set earlier, so there's no way he didn't know what was coming.

Toon Link: Gets in water. Jumps and throws boomerang / shoots arrows. Opponents who approach miss at the airdodge and get spiked by his dair.

G&W: Uses upB to get into the air. If the opponent is close, they dair them into the water, upB, and repeat until high percents, at which point they fair for an easy kill. If the opponent moves away, G&W flips sausages at them.

Happen to have a video of either of them doing it? Assuming this is indeed an auto-win for them, I can't quite see why they can do it, but characters like Shiek, Falco, or normal Link can't.

 

[MysticKenji]

Happen to have a video of either of them doing it? Assuming this is indeed an auto-win for them, I can't quite see why they can do it, but characters like Shiek, Falco, or normal Link can't.

Shiek and Link have no spikes.

 

[AlexX]

Shiek and Link have no spikes.

Then what about ones like Zamus and Wolf instead? I realize Zamus doesn't have the longest projectile range, but hey, neither does G&W.

 

[fkacyan]

Then what about ones like Zamus and Wolf instead? I realize Zamus doesn't have the longest projectile range, but hey, neither does G&W.

G&W's win technique involves his ability to keep you getting hit with his upB (It pushes you up) and his dair to hit you into the water. Eventually he can just aerial to win. The sausages have a pretty easy time hitting people, and he can also play edgegames with his nair.

T. Link's dair moves you down extremely quickly along with the spiking properties, bringing you back to the safety of the water.

 

[Amigo]

The crocodile isn't why I'm banning it...the problem is that the water's current is too fast and any character with slow aerial movement who gets knocked off the left side is pretty much dead.

You're contradicting yourself and this isn't helping your argument. So does every stage have it's own disadvantages and advantages to certain characters or not? Ok, so Jungle Japes disadvantages those with slow aerial movement, perhaps it would be wise for those characters to go on the right, and make there playstyle always favour the right? Not that hard to adapt to.

Jungle Japes is a very easy stage to avoid death, YOU JUST STAY ON THE PLATFORMS. Wow, isn't this how you win in every other stage?

 

[AlexX]

G&W's win technique involves his ability to keep you getting hit with his upB (It pushes you up) and his dair to hit you into the water. Eventually he can just aerial to win. The sausages have a pretty easy time hitting people, and he can also play edgegames with his nair.

G&W's sausages don't go very far. They're indeed a projectile, but they're not all that impressive and easy to deal with as long as you keep your distance (which is easy if you have your own projectile).

T. Link's dair moves you down extremely quickly along with the spiking properties, bringing you back to the safety of the water.

Doesn't Zamus's do the same?

I apologize if what I say makes no sense, but perhaps I could understand the situation better if you could show us a video on it? It would be highly beneficial since it could either prove your point, or we could find a flaw in the strategy that wasn't found before.

 

[habaker91]

Ugh, we've already went over this a few times...it's banned because of its walk-off blastzones, not the cars.

Funny, you seemed to be arguing about the cars a few posts back.
There's a total of one walk off that isnt supported by platforms.
You can't avoid a grab for 20 seconds in a 7 minute battle?

 

[DuskMarthWater]

You know...sorry guys. I think I'm gonna have to leave this thread again. It's too much newbie to handle. Most of you have only joined this year, but some of you are actually intelligent. Some of you are not. I bet none of you has won or maybe even placed in a single tournament, and if you have it was probably full of people who aren't that good anyways. Sorry, but until people in here go fight people who are truly good, then you're not gonna know how easy it is to abuse certain features in certain levels.

I LOVE Jungle Japes, it's one of my favorite stages. But...well, it can go either way I suppose. That's the only stage I will contradict myself on though, and that's only because I personally like the stage a lot. Anyways, my point is go play people who are really, really good. And don't tell me your friend is good, I've heard that one a billion times.

And seriously, if you can avoid being grabbed for more than 20 seconds you are either A. Hacking the game or B. Your opponents SUCK. If you chose B as your answer, you are correct! Avoid being grabbed for 20 seconds...ridiculous.

And you should read or quote the rest of my post MenoUnderwater, not just the one part that you did. You avoided the little bits and pieces that make your argument weaker. If you guys want it legal, I ain't complaining. I'll win if we ever fight on it though.

 

[MysticKenji]

Funny, you seemed to be arguing about the cars a few posts back.
There's a total of one walk off that isnt supported by platforms.
You can't avoid a grab for 20 seconds in a 7 minute battle?

He's talking about Mario Circuit, not Port Town.

 

[habaker91]

And seriously, if you can avoid being grabbed for more than 20 seconds you are either A. Hacking the game or B. Your opponents SUCK. If you chose B as your answer, you are correct! Avoid being grabbed for 20 seconds...ridiculous.

I guess this is true, since i main olimar i tend to shrug off chaingrabs as a minor problem.
But both Yoshi's Island melee and Distant planet have permanent (sloped) walk offs, and can be abused in certain situations as can port town's situational one.
Port Town's walk off can be made a little better by separating yourself from your opponent when the cars come. Otherwise, stay in the air as long as possible. I figure that the amount of walk off casualties from port town would be about the same as those from yoshi's island, and distant planet would probably have a few less, but still enough

 

[x After Dawn x]

Funny, you seemed to be arguing about the cars a few posts back.
There's a total of one walk off that isnt supported by platforms.
You can't avoid a grab for 20 seconds in a 7 minute battle?

I was talking about Mario Circuit...

I'm getting tired of all of these dumb posts in this thread.

 

[PKSkyler]

Question: Do you think Delphino Plaza should be banned? It was counter-pick at my local tournament scene until only recently. I think the banned it cause there is sometimes a glitch where you fall through stuff or something.
Question: Should Pokemon Stadium 1 be Neutral? Some of my friends say yes and some say no. I personally say no cause the one earth stage you can trap someone pretty badly on like 2 parts of the stage.....

 

[x After Dawn x]

Delfino Plaza is counterpick / neutral (it depends if your views are liberal or conservative, but for the most part, it's a counterpick) and Pokemon Stadium is a counterpick.

 

[PKSkyler]

Delfino Plaza is counterpick / neutral (it depends if your views are liberal or conservative, but for the most part, it's a counterpick) and Pokemon Stadium is a counterpick.

I completly agree with you, Delfino plaza as a cp and pokemon stadium as a cp but for soem reason they banned delfino plaza at the tournaments I go to in SD

 

[deepseadiva]

I LOVE Jungle Japes, it's one of my favorite stages. But...well, it can go either way I suppose. That's the only stage I will contradict myself on though, and that's only because I personally like the stage a lot. Anyways, my point is go play people who are really, really good.

Yay! Then, if you're like me and like the stage and have analyzed it - most people just ban it out of personal bias - WHY aren't you defending it?! Look closely and there isn't a decent reason as to why this stage could be banned.

And you should read or quote the rest of my post MenoUnderwater, not just the one part that you did. You avoided the little bits and pieces that make your argument weaker. If you guys want it legal, I ain't complaining.

I tried to argue against every viable point you brought up. Please inform me of anything I might have looked-over. Either way, there is no reason to ban the stage. The only way a character can take a completly unfair advantage on this stage would be to knock the opponent off it. I see no problem there.

I'll win if we ever fight on it though.

Mwa ha ha. If this is a challenge I shall take it sir!