[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Echofinder]

ray mkIII FTW!

 

[Cyn]

ray mkIII FTW!

nooooooooo!!!! But seriously ray doesn't stand out as unique from any other mech, but sadly as I mentioned before his chances are almost infinitely better

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Well I'm late on discussion here;

Koops likes the character alright, but he's really in it for the partners, a TTYD stage, some music, etc. Maybe he'll pop in and clarify.

Pretty much this; The character is a unique idea in theory but his chances are relatively low on earning a spot. Anything he could do as a character pretty much comes into close to the exact same thing stage representation can do. He's not really needed to Mario so the only way I think he'd enter in is If he were to be in his own series. It's not as impossible as having someone to represent Electroplankton but it'll for starters need some bias.

Even I'm biased for Mario RPG's and If I were somehow in charge of the roster I probably wouldn't put him in. TTYD Is at least one of my favorite games of all time and I still wouldn't bite into it.

However stage representation on the other hand should totally happen. Besides; We didn't get an animal crossing character but we did get one of the more enjoyable and interesting stages in Brawl. I see no reason for there to be no stage; I'll just have to hope Sakurai has played TTYD.

@Starphoenix: We should really get back to that Square-Enix idea since you're still interested.

So what else have I missed?

 

[Pieman0920]

Everything he could do as a character could be done by his stage? That doesn't make sense? How does exploitation of being 2D plus the use of partners be properly represented in the stage? The character could easily be unique in both aethetics and play style, and has three high selling games already, which is more than several other characters. And quite frankly Bowser Jr. isn't needed for Mario, and for mostly all the established series there is no other character that is needed per say, outside of the main character themself.

Also it wouldn't be TTYD that would be represented as a stage, it would be SPM...or another future Paper Mario game I suppose. =/

 

[CaptainOlimar123]

I want louie and king boo to be in the next smash game

 

[Cyn]

if you mean king boo as a boss, then yes I'd like to see him in the next game too. As a playable character, wouldn't work so well

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

The character could easily be unique in both aethetics and play style,

Anyone can be unique in terms of playstyle, so that's moot (and even then, being a clone is neither good nor bad by default, don't know why you harp on it so much). And being a variation on an existing character and wearing the exact same outfit kinda kills his unique aesthetic, don't you think?

and has three high selling games already, which is more than several other characters.

It's not Paper Mario's success compared to other series, it's Paper Mario's success compared to other Mario titles. Mario platformers regularly pull in around 20 million (and the last two Mario Karts did so as well), Mario RPGs average 1-3. Even a 10-sided die or a go-kart is more entitled than Paper Mario if we're playing the numbers game.

Spoiler

10-sided die riding a go-kart. Every problem can be solved by having something ride something else in my book.

And quite frankly Bowser Jr. isn't needed for Mario, and for mostly all the established series there is no other character that is needed per say, outside of the main character themself.

And we already have him. Why would we need him a second time?



Honestly, having Paper Mario makes as much sense as having Young Link return with a mask moveset. Or having PED Suit Samus with phazon or 1981 DK with barrels. Completely unnecessary.

Now before you go "oh, but Toon Link got in!", keep in mind:

A) He has more games than adult Link,
B) his games are rather close in popularity/sales compared to adult Link, and
C) his design rivals adult Link's popularity (though it obviously doesn't surpass it).

Paper Mario doesn't even come close to regular Mario in any of those categories. The only thing Toon Link doesn't have is a completely unique appearance, which Paper Mario doesn't have either.

 

[Gallowglass]

my wishlist (some of you may know already and are saying no way) no one should DENY!!
Mega Man X (speaking of... Echofinder, you want classic megaman and zero? i hopes youse wants X)
Bowser Jr. (no paint brush, either the brush is a item for any to hold or it is his final smash... or both)
Samurai Goroh (because Lack-a-Shadow isn't a good leader, isn't he being controlled by someone?)
Pokemon Trainer (HeartGold)
Saki Amamiya (or Isa or Kachi from SaP2, i havent seen them but sin and punishment is an obvious representation)
Custom Robo Character (Ray MK III)
...eh...why not. Fawful
Sylux (Haters!!!)
Nix Ness, put in Claus (i don't hate ness... oh i know what youse iz thinking... O12, dolt! dont giv me that BS!!! think outside of that box)
(assist trophies to be represented in adventure mode, briefly, maybe, vocals for all?)

Bosses:
Porky, again
Omega Ridley, lol
Eggman
Metal Gear REX
N.M.E (from kirby's Adventure my first kirby game)
Zero Two (if Zero Three is in the new kirby game then zero three... please *puppy dog eyes*) the final final boss like always in a kirby game (blood eyes, ah. Bleed, 0²,bleed. its okay if you are the essence of the evil in our world)
whats the most recurring zelda boss besides ganon...(big, hmm, OoT gohma?)
Armor-Mewtwo

(yes... boss)
Master Hand (ain't that classic)
Crazy Hand + Master Hand
(Tabuu is gone for good, he was killed by the combatants and master hand is an infinite but easy to control which is why N.M.E. puts on the gloves this time, poor MH)

I really like your boss selection (or the ones that I know of). N.M.E. would be a good boss from the Kirby game, and I really like Ridley as a boss more so then a playable character. If Sonic and Snake stay then a classic 2D Robotnik and Metal Gear Rex would be fun.

My only problem would be the Armored Mewtwo. I love the look and Mewtwo would make a cool boss. I just don't know since the Armored version was only shown in the anime and not in the game (at least I don't remeber).

Yeah Black Shadow (or as you better put it Lack-a-shadow) was controlled by Deathborn who would also make a good boss.

 

[Pieman0920]

Anyone can be unique in terms of playstyle, so that's moot (and even then, being a clone is neither good nor bad by default, don't know why you harp on it so much). And being a variation on an existing character and wearing the exact same outfit kinda kills his unique aesthetic, don't you think?

Not really. Luigi and Wario are both distinct from Mario, yet they dress is almost the exact same way (okay Wario changes it up for WW) so I don't see why it would be an issue if the character could clearly play in a unique way, and is immediatly distinguishable given the fact that they are a piece of paper. And yes, while most characters can have a pottentially unique moveset or style, most aren't technically suited for it, but certain characters are. Olimar could have had a Captain Falcon style moveset, but everyone knew he had to be implemented in a unique fashion. Given the Paper Mario games, its kind of hard not so see PM in a simmilar fashion.

It's not Paper Mario's success compared to other series, it's Paper Mario's success compared to other Mario titles. Mario platformers regularly pull in around 20 million (and the last two Mario Karts did so as well), Mario RPGs average 1-3. Even a 10-sided die or a go-kart is more entitled than Paper Mario if we're playing the numbers game.

Spoiler

10-sided die riding a go-kart. Every problem can be solved by having something ride something else in my book.

Mario Kart characters though are not varaitions on characters though, but rather just the character. It can't be compared.

And we already have him. Why would we need him a second time?

Because its a distinct and popular variation with its own set of games.

Honestly, having Paper Mario makes as much sense as having Young Link return with a mask moveset. Or having PED Suit Samus with phazon or 1981 DK with barrels. Completely unnecessary.

Now before you go "oh, but Toon Link got in!", keep in mind:

A) He has more games than adult Link,
B) his games are rather close in popularity/sales compared to adult Link, and
C) his design rivals adult Link's popularity (though it obviously doesn't surpass it).

Paper Mario doesn't even come close to regular Mario in any of those categories. The only thing Toon Link doesn't have is a completely unique appearance, which Paper Mario doesn't have either.

Well actually Paper Mario is the curent console style of the Mario RPGs, so if it were to be suplanted by a different series of Mario RPGs, then it would be a more apt comparison. As it is, Young Link is from a "ended" (rather than dead I guess) part of the Zelda series and there are newer versions to go off of, as seen with Toon Link. The thing with PED Samus and 1981 DK (Assuming you're considering him as the same as our curent DK, rather than Cranky Kong) is that they don't have their own series. If Paper Mario were the only Paper Mario game, then it would be the same, but as it is, a series grew out of it. (And as I said, he is visually distinct rather than having a few add ons to his suit or different head of hair like Sammy and DK)

And quite frankly, I'm totally aware that Toon Link is technically more of the main Link than adult Link, since I've said it multiple times when people think he should be cut. It still doesn't change the fact that there are two Links in Brawl (one of them only having two games) two Links in Melee, and two Marios in Melee as well.

And I'm aware the sales for the Paper Mario series are lower than that of any given Zelda game, and that it shows through the fact that there is no Paper Mario in Brawl, yet two different versions of Link, but it still shows quite clear that having two version of a single character is not a problem, and despite the relativley low sales of the Paper Mario series in comaprison to the main series, the sales are still higher than a good deal of other series' recent games.

 

[Big-Cat]

Now before you go "oh, but Toon Link got in!", keep in mind:

A) He has more games than adult Link,
B) his games are rather close in popularity/sales compared to adult Link, and
C) his design rivals adult Link's popularity (though it obviously doesn't surpass it).

Paper Mario doesn't even come close to regular Mario in any of those categories. The only thing Toon Link doesn't have is a completely unique appearance, which Paper Mario doesn't have either.

Don't forget that Toon Link/Young Link is the star of games that are part of the main series. Paper Mario is the star of a spin-off series. In a sense, this is where the representation argument holds ground.

 

[#HBC | J]

And quite frankly Bowser Jr. isn't needed for Mario, and for mostly all the established series there is no other character that is needed per say, outside of the main character themself.

Okay I completely disagree with this. Bowser had never had a game of his own till this new DS game of Bower's Inside Story and nothing of that game was incorporated into Brawl so your point of someone to just have their own game is not sensical and actually if you look at the games:

-----------------------------------------
List of Bowser Jr. appearance games
-----------------------------------------

1. Super Mario Sunshine
2. New Super Mario Bros.
3. Super Mario Galaxy
4. New Super Mario Bros. Wii
5. Super Mario Galaxy 2 (will be to help Bowser of course )
6. Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour
7. Mario Kart: Double Dash
8. Mario Kart Wii
9. Mario Power Tennis
10. Mario Superstar Baseball
11. Mario Super Sluggers
12. Mario Hoops 3-on-3
13. Mario Charged Strikers Football (soccer)
14. Mario Party DS
15. Mario&Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games

----------------------------------------

He was in 15 games to date....so that is definete background to having him though to you saying there is no need then why is there any need to put any of the characters in Brawl if your gonna be like that? If you are saying only the main character, Mario, should be in with only these others: Link, Kirby, DK, Samus, Fox, Pikachu, Marth, Sonic, Snake, Ness, Captain Falcon, Captain Olimar, Mr. Game&Watch, Pit, Ice Climbers, R.O.B., and Wario would be the only characters that could be said to be the main people in their franchises. So that is it for the roster if you say no one else is needed besides the main character of the game series they are from. Really that is not right to say only the main character is needed.

Olimar could have had a Captain Falcon style moveset, but everyone knew he had to be implemented in a unique fashion.

this has no evidence whatsoever to be completely true. There is NO way Captain Olimar could have had a style moveset similar to Captain Falcon. Captain Falcon is already the template of Ganondorf plus let me list a few things.

1.) Captain Olimar and Captain Falcon are from two VERY different games
2.) Captain Olimar and Captain Falcon both have different weapons to use: CF has his fist and fire, CO has his PIKMIN and own using his head as a weapon.
3.) The only thing similar to these two are their name
4.) Of course everyone knew he had to be implemented in a unique fashion because he is a unique character with a very unique fighting style.
5.) CF doesn't have little plant aliens that follow him so how would their moveset be similar?
6.) where did you get this idea?

Im sorry but this completely annoyed me because I love Olimar to death and this is just non-sensical


To Paper Mario being in SSBB....I say maybe but no. Give Paper Mario a stage but right now only Bowser Jr. is in my wish list. Paper Mario would be fun and has a good chance but idk....just a stage for now. (loves all the Paper Mario games and the best is the first one :3 *my opinion* though the others were just as good) Also I think PM stage should be this:

It should be a storybook where it switches from stages of one of the games and each time you go to the stage it could be random which Game Book you go into.

1.) Paper Mario
2.) Paper Mario: TTDY
3.) Super Paper Mario

Like each Book stage would have the partners in a stage that Paper Mario has gone too. So that would be the coolest and best idea. And the pages of the Game Book would flip to some of the best worlds in the game that game book is represented as.

Anyways that's it for me for now until something else of discussion comes up.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Not really. Luigi and Wario are both distinct from Mario, yet they dress is almost the exact same way (okay Wario changes it up for WW) so I don't see why it would be an issue if the character could clearly play in a unique way, and is immediatly distinguishable given the fact that they are a piece of paper. And yes, while most characters can have a pottentially unique moveset or style, most aren't technically suited for it, but certain characters are. Olimar could have had a Captain Falcon style moveset, but everyone knew he had to be implemented in a unique fashion. Given the Paper Mario games, its kind of hard not so see PM in a simmilar fashion.

There's a difference between sharing a similar outfit and wearing the exact same thing, having the same build, name, voice, etc.

And "moveset potential" is meaningless when any character can have a fully unique moveset. Or end up as a clone.

Mario Kart characters though are not varaitions on characters though, but rather just the character. It can't be compared.

You're ignoring the part where Paper Mario's games are a footnote compared to stuff like the platformers and Mario Kart. Even Dr. Mario and Mario Party are a bigger deal than the RPG games.

Because its a distinct and popular variation with its own set of games.

Popular compared to what, Fire Emblem? If inter-series popularity mattered, we'd have a dozen Mario characters by now and no one here would know who Ness was.

Compared to regular Mario though? No way. Not even close.

Well actually Paper Mario is the curent console style of the Mario RPGs, so if it were to be suplanted by a different series of Mario RPGs, then it would be a more apt comparison. As it is, Young Link is from a "ended" (rather than dead I guess) part of the Zelda series and there are newer versions to go off of, as seen with Toon Link. The thing with PED Samus and 1981 DK (Assuming you're considering him as the same as our curent DK, rather than Cranky Kong) is that they don't have their own series. If Paper Mario were the only Paper Mario game, then it would be the same, but as it is, a series grew out of it. (And as I said, he is visually distinct rather than having a few add ons to his suit or different head of hair like Sammy and DK)

And quite frankly, I'm totally aware that Toon Link is technically more of the main Link than adult Link, since I've said it multiple times when people think he should be cut. It still doesn't change the fact that there are two Links in Brawl (one of them only having two games) two Links in Melee, and two Marios in Melee as well.

And I'm aware the sales for the Paper Mario series are lower than that of any given Zelda game, and that it shows through the fact that there is no Paper Mario in Brawl, yet two different versions of Link, but it still shows quite clear that having two version of a single character is not a problem, and despite the relativley low sales of the Paper Mario series in comaprison to the main series, the sales are still higher than a good deal of other series' recent games.

1. You're making it seem like Paper Mario is a full spinoff like DK or Wario. It's not, it's still part of the Mario group, a very tiny part at that. And you missed the comparison in that it'd be emphasizing something really minor to make a couple of fans happy.

2. Doc and Young Link (and Pichu if he counts as one) got into Melee because there was time and room to spare. Brawl didn't have that luxury and there's no way the next game would either. The standard for variation characters is pretty high as a result.

3. I never said variation characters are a problem. Sheik, ZSS, and Wario's outfit are variations too, and they're all fine. The problem lies in adding variations that don't measure up to the originals in any way. Paper Mario doesn't. Toon Link does.

 

[DekuBoy]

Paper Mario, I feel would be a boring addition. Mario represents all the Marios (Dr, Paper ect.) just like how Link represents all the Links (TP, OOT, ALTTP ect.) with the exception of Toony.

Also I want ZZS to be redesigned more like her Other M appearance. She looks cooler and better proportioned IMO.

 

[#HBC | J]

Paper Mario, I feel would be a boring addition. Mario represents all the Marios (Dr, Paper ect.) just like how Link represents all the Links (TP, OOT, ALTTP ect.) with the exception of Toony.

Eeeeeeeeeeh I am gonna have to disagree with this. Dr. Mario, Paper Mario, Baby Mario are all different Marios (weird to type) anyways. Baby Mario is a good example as being in a game with Mario, Paper Mario had a different story and was it's own game, Dr. Mario def diff than regular Mario cuz it had it's own characters.

Link never had another character in TP, OOT, ALTTP. That was just Link.

In the Toon Link games however it was completely different with a new playstyle and new graphics and just completely it's own thing.

Toon Link is like Paper Mario in this case because they both come from completely dif games then the person they are originated from.

So if you say Mario represents all the Marios then why doesn't Link represent all the Links?

 

[ElPanandero]

Eeeeeeeeeeh I am gonna have to disagree with this. Dr. Mario, Paper Mario, Baby Mario are all different Marios (weird to type) anyways. Baby Mario is a good example as being in a game with Mario, Paper Mario had a different story and was it's own game, Dr. Mario def diff than regular Mario cuz it had it's own characters.

Link never had another character in TP, OOT, ALTTP. That was just Link.

In the Toon Link games however it was completely different with a new playstyle and new graphics and just completely it's own thing.

Toon Link is like Paper Mario in this case because they both come from completely dif games then the person they are originated from.

So if you say Mario represents all the Marios then why doesn't Link represent all the Links?

Alright well. the Links are different both in there games, and in their time continuum. Regular Link represents Young Link when he grew up without defeating Ganondorf. Toon Link is the Adult Link who didn't go back.

If you didnt follow that, at the end of OoT there are two links. Adult (who continues on to become Toon Link) and Young Link when he went back to the peaceful past (who would go on to become Twilight Princess Link).

Of course, the time continuum probably has no bearing on the characers....but it does prove they are not the same Links in technical terms....


Besides that, the Mario's are all indeed stand alone characters from different ares/ subdivisions of the series, but are all unqiue from Mario, but are still not unqiue enough to be stand alone Smash characters. Paper Mario is just as credible an addition as Doc or Baby. The fact is, he's barley special enough to be considered an addition to stand along with Mario.

 

[Starphoenix]

@Starphoenix: We should really get back to that Square-Enix idea since you're still interested.

I would love to, but every time it comes up I get brushed aside for another topic that has been done to death.

Currently we are in the "Paper Mario cycle", possibly branching off into the "Bowser. Jr cycle." Until some newbie poster breaks the chain with their extravagant "I want this in SSB4" list. Leading everyone to break it down and inform the individual him/her why "x", "y", and "z" will not be in.

 

[#HBC | J]

Alright well. the Links are different both in there games, and in their time continuum. Regular Link represents Young Link when he grew up without defeating Ganondorf. Toon Link is the Adult Link who didn't go back.

If you didnt follow that, at the end of OoT there are two links. Adult (who continues on to become Toon Link) and Young Link when he went back to the peaceful past (who would go on to become Twilight Princess Link).

Of course, the time continuum probably has no bearing on the characers....but it does prove they are not the same Links in technical terms....


Besides that, the Mario's are all indeed stand alone characters from different ares/ subdivisions of the series, but are all unqiue from Mario, but are still not unqiue enough to be stand alone Smash characters. Paper Mario is just as credible an addition as Doc or Baby. The fact is, he's barley special enough to be considered an addition to stand along with Mario.

Now that's a standard arguement :D Plus I agree completely. xD I was just not agreeing to how he said it. Paper Mario would be better if his franchise gets bigger. Though he is completely deserving of a stage.

The point I was getting at was their playstyles are dif cuz Paper Mario is a time continuum if Mario and all the characters were Paper plus it had 3 games.

Toon Link is the scenarios you gave. So I think PM is kindof like TL a bit. Though it's all opinion at the end of the day

Btw Paper Mario would be like Mr. Game&Watch in movestyle cuz they would both be 2-D.

I would love to, but every time it comes up I get brushed aside for another topic that has been done to death.

Currently we are in the "Paper Mario cycle", possibly branching off into the "Bowser. Jr cycle." Until some newbie poster breaks the chain with their extravagant "I want this in SSB4" list. Leading everyone to break it down and inform the individual him/her why "x", "y", and "z" will not be in.

Sorry this is completely my fault on the Bowser Jr. thing xD

 

[Starphoenix]

Sorry this is completely my fault on the Bowser Jr. thing xD

It's fine. I was just stating how this thread works.

 

[#HBC | J]

Hmm but what would we talk about if the very slim possibility of Sqaure Enix? I have never heard anything about someone adding them. (finds it should be a fascinating conversation)

 

[Starphoenix]

Hmm but what would we talk about if the very slim possibility of Sqaure Enix? I have never heard anything about someone adding them. (finds it should be a fascinating conversation)

What Koopa was referring to was my previous discussion on Slime from the Dragon Quest series. I believe this character stands a chance of making a cameo appearance out of a cross promotional attempt from Nintendo and Square-Enix to make the series (Dragon Quest) more recognizable in the West. Outside of this the character has decent popularity (primarily in Japan, enough elsewhere) and has enough material to comprise special moves and a Final Smash. Only objections I have heard is the character not having arms and Slime being passed up in favor of a main protagonist. As I have stated before Slime HAS picked up items before in a spin off game and throws could be comprised of "it" wrapping around the character. As far as being passed up, considering the main heroes change with every installment and the Slimes are considered the icon of the series. I doubt this.

Slime has already been in a crossover Nintendo where HE was the highlighted character.

Also...

Famitsu readers vote on the 50 best game characters of all-time, Snake beats Mario
http://www.gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=113882

1. Snake
2. Mario
3. Cloud Strife
4. The slimes from Dragon Quest
5. Sora from Kingdom Hearts
6. Link
7. Yuri Lowell from Tales of Vesperia
8. Amaterasu from Okami
9. Pikachu
10. Sonic

 

[#HBC | J]

Oh I see. However if Square Enix were to allow one of their characters to join brawl it would be the Slimes cuz of this

1.) Cloud is WAY to big to be in brawl (for the FF series fans though they would go NUTS with loving brawl)
2.) Slime is more cartoony and more like a brawl character.
3.) Sora has no chance.

 

[Pieman0920]

jbandit, A lot of the things flew over your head it seems. =/

The only character you need, and I stress the word need here, to represent a character per say is their main character, not that you need your own game to be in. And for the Olimar thing, it was a hypothetical statement in regards to any character having a moveset. Everyone can have a moveset, but some are more inclined to have unique ones, as is the case of Olimar. How you strayed so off track with that one I'll never know.

Anyways for Toise~

Their builds aren't the same given the fact that their body parts are generally different sizes. (Paper Mario has no legs, bro) and there's the huge difference in the fact that one is 3D and the other is 2D. And the moveset thing does matter because while its one thing to have a moveset completely made up from scratch, the general case for most characters is that its not. In addition, its beneficial for the series to expand and give different types of moveset a chance to be incorporated, which is not something that applies to the "everyone can have a moveset" thing. For the most part you can give anyone their basic a-attacks and specials, but for most characters you can't give them anything unique to work off of unless you stretch it out to unrealistic levels, but you can with Paper Mario. Now while this doesn't automatically mean that Paper Mario gets the job, the fact that he's naturally inclined for one like Olimar, and also happens to be Mario but in a different form, helps his side from a promotional stand point, even if Mario's regular self is included. Heck, when you go back and look at Melee, Doc was included despite not having a particularly innovative moveset, so in all honestly it would be better if he turned out that way than let history repeat itself exactly.

Mario Kart and Mario Party are irrelevant given the fact that they are the exact same Mario with no changes in the slightest. Doc is a different story though, but in regards to his sales, they have much less influence. Dr. Mario's highest sales occurred in the NES and GB days as opposed to the last few generations. Ever since then, the Dr. Mario games have been selling fairly poorly, though I can't seem to find sales numbers on RX, so that may change things. As it is though, the Paper Mario series has increased in sales with each game, with its latest, and highest selling game being on the Wii. Thus if we are under the belief that sales matter in the inclusion of characters and what not, then the Paper Mario series, as well as the Mario & Luigi series, are much more relevant now than the Dr. Mario series.

1. Any character at this point, bar Mega Man is essentially only pleasing a small amount of fans so I seriously don't know what your problem with PM fully is. The other sections of the Mario franchise are the same things, so its rather pointless to bring them up. As it stands, there probably will be expansion in the Mario series with a new character or two, and given the fact that the Paper Mario is distinct enough visually as well as potentially in terms of gameplay puts him in the running in my eyes. And while PM as a series may have lower sales overall than some of the other Mario spinoffs, its case is still unique in that it also represents a character at the same time, so it can't be fully measured against other Mario series contenders such as Bowser Jr. and Toad.

2. The future development constraints of Smash 4 is not ours to see.

3. Gonna have to explain what you mean by "measure up" chief. Do you mean as the case is with separate accomplishments or something? Technically if it wasn't for overwhelming popularity on his part, Adult Link wouldn't measure up to Toon Link (If I'm getting your term right here) and certainly Doc didn't to Mario back in Melee.

 

[CaptainOlimar123]

Eeeeeeeeeeh I am gonna have to disagree with this. Dr. Mario, Paper Mario, Baby Mario are all different Marios (weird to type) anyways. Baby Mario is a good example as being in a game with Mario, Paper Mario had a different story and was it's own game, Dr. Mario def diff than regular Mario cuz it had it's own characters.

Link never had another character in TP, OOT, ALTTP. That was just Link.

In the Toon Link games however it was completely different with a new playstyle and new graphics and just completely it's own thing.

Toon Link is like Paper Mario in this case because they both come from completely dif games then the person they are originated from.

So if you say Mario represents all the Marios then why doesn't Link represent all the Links?

Baby Mario isn't a different Mario he's just mario as a baby...

 

[Big-Cat]

Hmm but what would we talk about if the very slim possibility of Sqaure Enix? I have never heard anything about someone adding them. (finds it should be a fascinating conversation)

That one never ends well. Come to think of it, NOTHING has ever ended well, especially the gameplay topics I bring up.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Last post on Paper Mario because I'm stuck in a Pieman loop.

Blob #1

You're ignoring the fact that Paper Mario is Mario. You can't pretend that an art shift makes him aesthetically unique. It's still red hat and jeans, short paunchy athletic guy, Charles Martinet's falsetto, and a name that ends in Mario. That all takes precedence over "Paper."

I should've known you still think "moveset potential" matters because of our previous debates, but oh well.

Blob #2

You're missing the part where (this is like my catchphrase or something) Paper Mario games aren't nearly as popular as the platformers. You know, the games that define Mario. SPM almost reaching 3 million after three years is pretty pitiful compared to NSMBWii pulling 10 million in two months.

For a variation of the biggest video game character in the world, he isn't doing nearly as well in comparison. Why should he be playable again?


1. It's "pleasing a small amount of Mario fans," just like how MM Link pleases Majora's Mask fanboys. Misrepresentation at its finest. How are you not getting this?

2. Do you really think the next game is gonna have the spare time that Melee had for extra last-minute characters? Really?

3. The fact that you're seriously asking me this is a good reminder not to bother with these debates. Apparently it's too much of a hassle to scroll up past the post you're responding to.


I haven't been this dickish in a while but it's been so long since I've debated with you that I forgot how ridiculous these conversations get.

 

[Rizen]

Quick 2 cents:
Nintendo should make a balanced competitive game with all characters in SSB4. Old characters should be able to match the new ones in 1 vs 1 matches and every character should be designed primarily for competitive play, not 'party game' play. SSB4 should be tested better than Brawl with competitive methods. How balanced brawl was designed is a good starting model for SSB4.
Balanced Brawl part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpQkTMNLsBI&feature=channel"

BB part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJgfKP0kUgg&NR=1

Small changes made to eliminate glaring match up weaknesses, but keep the characters' fighting styles.
The SSBs series has been 3 separate games with a similar premise. SSB4 should be designed as a sequel to Brawl so the glitches and flaws of a new system are avoided and the current system can be refined.
Sorry if this repeats what someone said, I don’t want to read the last 30800+ posts.

 

[Big-Cat]

Quick 2 cents:
Nintendo should make a balanced competitive game with all characters in SSB4. Old characters should be able to match the new ones in 1 vs 1 matches and every character should be designed primarily for competitive play, not 'party game' play. SSB4 should be tested better than Brawl with competitive methods. How balanced brawl was designed is a good starting model for SSB4.

I assume you're not saying that everyone would have 5:5 matchups, right. Otherwise, that could only happen if you had every character play the exact same.

Anyway, for helping with the balance, I posted this at IGN earlier as suggestions for possibly solving some of the glaring balance issues. I think the gameplay discussion group for this.

Give some characters anti-air moves like air grabs and ground anti-air moves (think Pikmin Chain) to counter the over dominance of aerial combat and stalling.
Give every character a combo breaker move just like the Barrier Burst in BlazBlue and the Mega Crash from TvC to counter dominant combo characters.
Instead of giving hit stun ratings like the weight rankings per character, make hitstun universal to help the balancing process.
Add high jumps like Rolento's from SFA, and everyone in TvC, to select characters to help add some depth to their playing styles.
Get rid of stale moves in favor of a damage scaling system similar to SF4's. Combos are not as gamebreaking and matches are now closer.
Implement tech grabbing to kill off chain grabs for good.
Have some sort of edge grab limit to kill planking.
Remove random tripping.

 

[#HBC | J]

Baby Mario isn't a different Mario he's just mario as a baby...

Well that may be true but Baby Mario has had his own co-appearances.

1.) Mario&Luigi: Partners in Time
2.) Mario Kart: Double Dash
3.) Mario Kart: Wii
4.) Mario SuperStar Baseball
5.) Mario Super Sluggers
6.) Mario Tennis
7.) Mario Power Tennis
8.) Mario Golf
9.) Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour
10.) Yoshi Island (GBA)
11.) Yoshi Island DS

So Baby Mario has had much more appearances then Paper Mario or Dr. Mario. It would also be easy to combine Baby Mario & Baby Luigi to an Ice Climber type moveset. Yes Baby Mario is a younger Mario but the two have been in alot of games together co-existing so it wouldn't be that far of a stretch to say they could be in Brawl. Remember everyone with a plausible theory is possible with nintendo. Especially this character per say cuz they have been in 11 selling games of Nintendo.

jbandit, A lot of the things flew over your head it seems. =/

The only character you need, and I stress the word need here, to represent a character per say is their main character, not that you need your own game to be in. And for the Olimar thing, it was a hypothetical statement in regards to any character having a moveset. Everyone can have a moveset, but some are more inclined to have unique ones, as is the case of Olimar. How you strayed so off track with that one I'll never know.

Okay just a little thing:

1.) The Olimar hypothesis was weird and needed more explanation than what you said.
2.) If you only need the main character then why is Toon Link and Link in the same game? Their the same character just different by graphics correct? Just like the whole Paper Mario dilema and we go back into a circle.
3.) Nothing flew over my head but I think your theories might have gone a little over your own head :/

On a different note we should talk about Stages and Gameplay.

That one never ends well. Come to think of it, NOTHING has ever ended well, especially the gameplay topics I bring up.

Ouch that's sad D:

Topics don't end well most of the time cuz when someone brings a good arguement to their opinion they get aggravated and try and annoy the other person by repeating the fact or saying something that just doesn't make sense. People just need to realize everyone has their own opinion on a different situation and there will be clashes between opinions. *shrug* can't change people

 

[Shorts]

Which Part would baby mario even be in?
I would assume Yoshi, considering Thats where he first appeared. (Yoshis Island)

I had a dream about SSBB DLC last night actually, the new characters were:

Krystal
One of the Koopa Kids (from the Mario Party series)
Baby Mario
Roy
and Evee.

and then some new colors for other characters.... and this humanoid Pichu..... but were just gonna leave him out of this discussion.

So what are the chances of any of these characters making appearances in SSB4. Whether it be playable, or AT?

For the evee, let me just say i think Evees only chance at getting in smash bros was SSB 64, i mean she was sort of one of the most well known pokemon, she wasn't found in the wild, so she was rare and valuable. And she had three evolvences, which was the most back then. I mean now she had seven, and im sure she will get two more in this upcoming fifth gen. Evee had her chance, just like meowth, Clefairy and all the other first gen mascots. however, Charizard, Squirtle and Ivysaur DID make it into SSBB, so whose to say that Meowth wont make an appereance?

@ MES!
I agree, most of the public isnt exactly the best smashers so making the characters more balanced will help people who Play as Olimar and Jiggs have a little better chance against Meta Knight, and the king of cheap, Pit.

 

[#HBC | J]

Baby Mario would be a Yoshi Character most likely since that is where they first appeared

To Eevee getting in I really doubt it...just me. I don't see it sorry ^^"

 

[Pieman0920]

Last post on Paper Mario because I'm stuck in a Pieman loop.

Eh, this thing is leaving a sour taste in my too, so I'd rather end it, but you know me, I can't really not respond.

You're ignoring the fact that Paper Mario is Mario. You can't pretend that an art shift makes him aesthetically unique. It's still red hat and jeans, short paunchy athletic guy, Charles Martinet's falsetto, and a name that ends in Mario. That all takes precedence over "Paper."

Doesn't change the fact that its happened already with other characters and Mario himself, so its not an issue. They have enough aethetical differences between them so that no one would have much of a problem distinguishing them.

I should've known you still think "moveset potential" matters because of our previous debates, but oh well.

I still believe they matter only if they are innovative. (This is how ICs beat out most of the other NES characters, how Shiek got in, as well as PT'sPokemon, specifically Ivysaur, got in, despite having much lower popularity and status. The main problem with this though is knowing who exactly Sakurai and co deem innovative since its a good chunk of guess work. Beyond a innovative slot though, movesets don't particularly matter unless it is near impossible to give a character a moveset. (I'm looking at you Diskun)

You're missing the part where (this is like my catchphrase or something) Paper Mario games aren't nearly as popular as the platformers. You know, the games that define Mario. SPM almost reaching 3 million after three years is pretty pitiful compared to NSMBWii pulling 10 million in two months.

For a variation of the biggest video game character in the world, he isn't doing nearly as well in comparison. Why should he be playable again?

How is that a point? NSMBWii's Mario is the regular Mario. The Mario we've had since Smash 64. There's no question that he's more popular and deserving of recognition, and that's clearly evident by the fact that he already is in. Paper Mario wouldn't be in competition with him at all, because there's no contest who should be represented first. What Paper Mario is competeting against are characters like Bowser Jr. and Toad, who both have popularity that is difficult to meassure out in any meaningful way. As it is though, the Paper Mario series already has a established 3 million sold to go under its belt.

1. It's "pleasing a small amount of Mario fans," just like how MM Link pleases Majora's Mask fanboys. Misrepresentation at its finest. How are you not getting this?

What I'm not getting is that it can be compared to a discontinued series, as well as a singular game, when the PM series is itself active. Heck, aren't you the one who was pushing for Roy just because he was in back in Melee? How is that not the same thing? How is any retro character not the same thing? Why should we have Little Mac if all he does is please a few Punch Out fans or any other character at this point that isn't Mega Man?

2. Do you really think the next game is gonna have the spare time that Melee had for extra last-minute characters? Really?

There is no telling what the future development process will be like, so it could be just like Melee's. Then again it could be like Brawl's. Then again it could be something completely different. There is zero way of knowing.

3. The fact that you're seriously asking me this is a good reminder not to bother with these debates. Apparently it's too much of a hassle to scroll up past the post you're responding to.

Eh? You just said something in a odd way. It can't take more that a few moments to explain it out. I even tried to guess what it was, though I'm not sure now if that's what you meant since you didn't confirm it. Whatever way you meant "meassure up" to come off, I'm still sure that Doc didn't do so to Mario back in Melee.

I haven't been this dickish in a while but it's been so long since I've debated with you that I forgot how ridiculous these conversations get.

You're actually not coming off like that, though it my be just my conception that you're not making valid points. >_>

Okay just a little thing:

1.) The Olimar hypothesis was weird and needed more explanation than what you said.
2.) If you only need the main character then why is Toon Link and Link in the same game? Their the same character just different by graphics correct? Just like the whole Paper Mario dilema and we go back into a circle.
3.) Nothing flew over my head but I think your theories might have gone a little over your own head :/

1. You really had to read the whole thing there instead of just picking at a random sentance without looking at what lead up to it.
2. Really man, read the whole post. The only thing that is bare bones essential for representing a series is main character themself. As it is though we do get characters that aren't the mains, so that's just fine.
3. Seriously dude, you completely misread them. :/

I had a dream about SSBB DLC last night actually, the new characters were:

Oddly enough, I had a dream the other night about Smash DLC where Mega Man, Geno, and Bayonetta of all characters was added. There were like 5 other DLC characters, but I can't remember them at all what with it being a dream, but I do recall basically all of them being third party or something. Sandslash was also a new Pokeball Pokemon for some unexplainable reason too.

 

[#HBC | J]

1. You really had to read the whole thing there instead of just picking at a random sentance without looking at what lead up to it.
2. Really man, read the whole post. The only thing that is bare bones essential for representing a series is main character themself. As it is though we do get characters that aren't the mains, so that's just fine.
3. Seriously dude, you completely misread them. :/

I read them all completely and I stand by what I said :/

whatever this arguement is never gonna go anywhere so it's done
it has no relevance to the topics that are being discussed

And now apparantly we are talking about dreams....

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I would love to, but every time it comes up I get brushed aside for another topic that has been done to death.

I mean thinking up stirring more action from it. Y'know, private messages exist for a reason. : D

no one here would know who Ness was.

I would.

How does exploitation of being 2D plus the use of partners be properly represented in the stage? The character could easily be unique in both aethetics and play style

Point made but his Partners could be used as Assist Trophies, so...

Still point made on that. A stage would still do amazingly fine.

And quite frankly Bowser Jr. isn't needed for Mario, and for mostly all the established series there is no other character that is needed per say, outside of the main character themself.

You assume that a Mario character is automatically needed here - Either that or pointing to what I think of the character.

Also it wouldn't be TTYD that would be represented as a stage, it would be SPM...or another future Paper Mario game I suppose. =/

And you know this how?

Either way I doubt it myself. I can hope and not set high - Ah well. Maybe I'll just do a stage texture myself in my free time.

 

[#HBC | J]

I still say a book idea that represents all 3 stages would be good.

The stage would change like a book flipping kindof like Pokemon Stadium. There would be three "books" or better said stages.

Each book would be direved from one of the games.

This would be the best way to incorporate the partners, the uniqueness of Paper Mario, the stages, and that way all 3 of the Paper Mario games are incorporated.

I know I said this before but it seemed it was passed by and now the Paper Mario stage is being brought back up I thought it would be better to just reiterate.

 

[Arcadenik]

The reason why we got two Links and two Marios in the first place was because Young Link and Dr. Mario were last-minute filler clones added just to buff the Melee roster. Dr. Mario was removed but Young Link was simply replaced with Toon Link. That's all it is. It isn't like Sakurai intentionally wanted to add two versions of the same character unless they were going to be last-minute filler clones (Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik come to mind). That's why I don't think we will get Paper Mario because we already have Mario and there's no point in adding another version unless you want to make the roster bigger. At least Zero Suit Samus looks nothing like regular Samus and she got entirely different moves from regular Samus and she doesn't even take up two slots on the character select screen.

A Paper Mario stage would be perfect, though. Personally I want the battle stage with the audience from TTYD but really, any other Paper Mario location would be fine to represent the Paper Mario series. I would like to see stage representations of Mario's other spin-off series. We already had a Mario Kart stage so I think a Paper Mario stage, a Mario & Luigi stage, and even a Mario Party stage would be perfect. They are probably some of the most popular Mario spin-off series.

 

[#HBC | J]

A Paper Mario stage would be perfect, though. Personally I want the battle stage with the audience from TTYD but really, any other Paper Mario location would be fine to represent the Paper Mario series. I would like to see stage representations of Mario's other spin-off series. We already had a Mario Kart stage so I think a Paper Mario stage, a Mario & Luigi stage, and even a Mario Party stage would be perfect. They are probably some of the most popular Mario spin-off series.

I agree completely Mario Party would be great and so would more spin offs of Mario. There should be a sports stage since ALOT of those games are sold and made and there are soo many of them.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@Koops and Phoenix: If you guys start a SE topic of some sort, I'll use my Guy Who Makes Big Posts powers to keep it going. As long as it's not Mario-related.

 

[Pieman0920]

@jbandit: I really doubt that given that your reaction had nothing to do with what I was saying.

You were acting as if I actually meant that Olimar should have a moveset like that, and took a hypothetical situation about the only things that were "needed" and took it to encompass all existing characters when I clearly didn't indicate that all existing characters fell under it.

@ Koops

Well that's like saying that Olimar's Pikmin would be ATs, or PT's Pokemon would be Pokeball Pokemon. Its not the same thing at all. =/

I think the assumption here is that the Mario series will get a new character, and thus PM would have to be argued against any other rivals for the spot. Whether the spot will or will not exist is a different discussion, though personally I feel it is something that will happen.

And in regards to the Paper Mario stage being SPM rather than the TTYD, upon consideration I sort of have to change my stance to either SPM (or future game) or PM1 stage given the vast majority of Smash stages are based around either the first part of the series or the latest part of the series. Its like 95% like this Koops, with the odd acceptions of Halberd and possibly Frigate Orpheon if you don't count Prime as seperate/also don't count that Japan doesn't seem to care about the series and thus may not be paying attenion in the first place, but I digress there. Thus while there are the slight odds that they will pick from the middle of the series rather than the newest or oldest, you have to understand that since PM2 (and actually PM1 and SPM) doesn't have any setting that stands above the others in its series, its probably not going to get the pick.

EDIT: Incidently a audaince being part of a PM stage is probably something that is very likely, it doesn't really decide what game or setting the stage would be based off of, since its in both PM2 and SPM as well as the fact that it can happen basically anywhere in both games and thus make it sort of acceptable no matter what real location the battle would take place in.

DOUBLE EDIT: Scratch that, I was thinking more about it, and now I've come to the realization that due to my priorities in what I want for a stage, I wouldn't want a Paper Mario stage based around having a audaince and on a stage or what not, since that would impede a Kingdom III (SMB3) level. D:

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

there's always room for more Mario stages don'tcha know

 

[#HBC | J]

@Pieman: Next time make sure you clearly and I mean clearly state what you mean no harm no foul

anyways ya there is always room for more Mario stages so I second that.