[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Shorts]

The reason why we got two Links and two Marios in the first place was because Young Link and Dr. Mario were last-minute filler clones added just to buff the Melee roster. Dr. Mario was removed but Young Link was simply replaced with Toon Link. That's all it is. It isn't like Sakurai intentionally wanted to add two versions of the same character unless they were going to be last-minute filler clones (Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik come to mind). That's why I don't think we will get Paper Mario because we already have Mario and there's no point in adding another version unless you want to make the roster bigger. At least Zero Suit Samus looks nothing like regular Samus and she got entirely different moves from regular Samus and she doesn't even take up two slots on the character select screen.

A Paper Mario stage would be perfect, though. Personally I want the battle stage with the audience from TTYD but really, any other Paper Mario location would be fine to represent the Paper Mario series. I would like to see stage representations of Mario's other spin-off series. We already had a Mario Kart stage so I think a Paper Mario stage, a Mario & Luigi stage, and even a Mario Party stage would be perfect. They are probably some of the most popular Mario spin-off series.

But Paper Mario IS totally different, think of him how you think of toon link. Toon link is a link that is living in a different time than regular link. Same with Paper Mario, his adventures arent revolving around saving peach and thwarting bowser as much as the regular mario series is. So essentially the storyline is totally different. Not to mention the mounds and mounds of original Paper Mario characters. Paper Mario really brought back the mario RPG and almost everyone enjoys those. Essentially this mario is in an alternate universe, i mean the adventures mario has in the main series arent even referenced in Paper Mario. His attacks COULD be unique. He in general wouldnt be a filler character if put in. He would be a well thought out, Spiked-boot, mallet weilding beast!

 

[Pieman0920]

@ Toise: Its not about the amount, its the matter of SMB3 itself having a stage performance motiff. You know, with the backgrounds all being part of a set, and the ends of the levels being the edges of the stage. If you're going to have a Kingdom III in the spirit of Kingdom I and II, then you're bound to have to incorporate those, since that's the first level of the game, just like them. Thus you really can't have a stage focused on that while having a Paper Mario stage that works the same way, just like you can't really have a SMG stage as well as a Mario Kart stage based around Rainbow Road. It's just too much of the same for the same series.

@ Jbandit

Next time read the whole thing.

 

[Arcadenik]

But Paper Mario IS totally different, think of him how you think of toon link. Toon link is a link that is living in a different time than regular link. Same with Paper Mario, his adventures arent revolving around saving peach and thwarting bowser as much as the regular mario series is. So essentially the storyline is totally different. Not to mention the mounds and mounds of original Paper Mario characters. Paper Mario really brought back the mario RPG and almost everyone enjoys those. Essentially this mario is in an alternate universe, i mean the adventures mario has in the main series arent even referenced in Paper Mario. His attacks COULD be unique. He in general wouldnt be a filler character if put in. He would be a well thought out, Spiked-boot, mallet weilding beast!

So because Paper Mario games aren't about Mario saving Peach, it must mean Paper Mario is a completely different version of Mario in the canon? Kinda like how WarioWare isn't about Wario hunting for treasure so WarioWare's Wario is a completely different version of Wario in the canon? Is that why Wario doesn't have the Wario Land costume, right?

Truthfully, the idea of having another version of Mario does not excite me. The only reason Toon Link is in the game now is because he replaced Young Link as the most recent version of a young Link and the reason why we have a playable young Link in the first place is because Young Link was added as a last-minute filler clone in Melee (same reason why we had Dr. Mario and Pichu in the first place).

I would prefer a new Mario character who has more potential to be an original character and not a clone of an existing character. That's one of the reasons why I support Toad for SSB4.

 

[ElPanandero]

I agree with Arcadenik.

Also, ToonLink/ Link and Paper Mario/ Mario are different topics. They are not the same because the Zelda series has strong evidence supporting a continuation, or free flowing, serieso fgames, in which all are related. The Mario games have no relevance to each other. Canonically Super Mario bros. Super Mario 64 and Paper Mario all have the same relevance to each other, and using canonical information could all be entirely different Mario's (though they probably are not). The only thing separating them is the fact that Pm is made of Paper. using this logic Sport Mario could be a playable character (do they have more sales than PM)?

 

[#HBC | J]

Nah the sport games did not have better sales then the original PM or the one for the GC idk about wii.

I support for a new character Toad or Bowser Jr. mostly BJ. These two would be def diff and way better though you can't count paper mario out till the game is released

 

[Rizen]

I can't move past page 2055 of 2057? Weird.
My new character choices are:
Megaman X
Zero
Glitch (Metal Arms)
Majora's Mask/Incarnation/Wrath, who would transform for different moves
Cloud Strife
Knuckles
Tails
Chrono

Many will not appear, but that's who I'd pick.

Characters couldn't all have 5/5 MUs, it wouldn't work. 6/4, at worst, MUs sound possible if the metagame is explored before SSB4's released, which is why it should be a Brawl sequel. Limits on edge grabs, stricter shield timing, air dodge=one mid air jump less for characters with multiples, more randomness in launch trajectories, slight randomness in launch distances, no random trips, no set distance for throws, and changes in lag/hit bubble duration for fairness would help even MUs for the current cast.
Brawl ‘clone characters’ are different enough that I’m ok with them. Melee’s were too close. There should not be many clones. Soul Caliber 3 comes to mind for a game that has too many; it’s half clones. Most SSBs character’s need to be original and fit their game (Melee’s Ganondorf was C Falcon’s clone; what the heck?).
I know part of this is repeating other people. I’m agreeing and adding my opinions.

 

[Big-Cat]

Just saw the newest tier list. Lol Hyrule tier.

 

[Pieman0920]

Hmm, I don't follow the competative scene at all, but I thought in the begining, people were considering Zelda as a pretty viable character, even more so than Sheik. I guess that changed, eh.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@ Toise: Its not about the amount, its the matter of SMB3 itself having a stage performance motiff.

Amazing. I thought I had you figured out but you've set a new standard for misinterpreting the obvious.

 

[Big-Cat]

Hmm, I don't follow the competative scene at all, but I thought in the begining, people were considering Zelda as a pretty viable character, even more so than Sheik. I guess that changed, eh.

I only follow it from time to time since my shift to Street Fighter. Anyway, this is how the metagame works. It's always changing. With that in mind, so do tier lists. Though, some things stay constant, like Metaknight's placing.

 

[SmashChu]

@Koops and Phoenix: If you guys start a SE topic of some sort, I'll use my Guy Who Makes Big Posts powers to keep it going. As long as it's not Mario-related.

Heck, I'd like to see some SE talk. Current talk is boring.

Hmm, I don't follow the competative scene at all, but I thought in the begining, people were considering Zelda as a pretty viable character, even more so than Sheik. I guess that changed, eh.

She is very viable in 4vs. The tier list is for competitive play, so the characters work much differently in matches most Smash players play.

Also, wanted to mention that I'm not so sure about the new list. Some of the characters are moving at crazy rates. I mean, how does Zelda fall 9 spots?

 

[Gallowglass]

I don't want to get in the Paper Mario arguement since I never played it. All I have to say is that Toon Link is a different character from TP Link. Young Link was the younger form of adult Link and was an Identical clone. Toon Link will not grow up into TP Link and has different moves then adult Link (e.g. All Toon Link's A attacks uses the sword while adult Link will kick in the air).

I'm going to change the subject with Bosses I would like to fight in SSB4

Bosses from Brawl I wish to return
Ridley
Meta Ridley
Pete Pirahna
Master Hand/Crazy Hand
Porky

New Bosses
Deathborn (F-Zero GX)
Asgard (Fire Emblem)
Mewtwo
Darknut/Iron Knuckle
Andross
Bald Bull (Punch Out)
A 5th Gen Pokemon

 

[Big-Cat]

She is very viable in 4vs. The tier list is for competitive play, so the characters work much differently in matches most Smash players play.

Just out of curiosity, how is she better in 4 vs. matches? Those typically end up at 1 vs. 1 near the end. Thus, Zelda winds up in that issue.

Also, wanted to mention that I'm not so sure about the new list. Some of the characters are moving at crazy rates. I mean, how does Zelda fall 9 spots?

From what I've read on the Wiki, apparently, it has to do with her odd attributes (light and floaty), a predictable projectile, and few approaching options.

 

[#HBC | J]

I find that thing a little off cuz Lucas is a bit better than Low tier but *shrug* whatya gonna do.

I think the competive thing is a bit messed up Zelda is a beast in singles though not against the top tier however she can dominate against most of the others. I say for her middle/top tier cuz in a few tournaments the Zelda's I have seen usually won.

I think they need to recheck their statistics a bit but how can anyone make a great tier list because it is all based on results cuz of whom they have seen what about youtube vids and people who are just getting into the brawl boards community? However if you wanna argue with them you gotta have evidence or you will be bashed....severly.

 

[Deleted member]

I have a lot of ideas. Expect them to come pouring in the next few days. Starting tommorow with the starting character roster.

 

[SmashChu]

Just out of curiosity, how is she better in 4 vs. matches? Those typically end up at 1 vs. 1 near the end. Thus, Zelda winds up in that issue.

It's only a 1v1 at the end for stock, and it is a 4vs up until that point. It's not only the fact this it's a 1v1. It's the rules and what is excepted. Items are off, and most stages are banned. Certain tricks, like chain grabbing, are not used. If there was a tier list for 4vs, it would be very different from the one we have on Smash Boards (if you're curious, I've thought a rough one up).

As for why she is good: Her projectile alone lets her cover a lot of area and has a disjointed hitbox. It also lets her get Smash Balls relatively easy and can steal KO when players are airborne. The projectile allows her to dominate the field unless other players go after her. She can camp really easily with this as she can counter on comers with her up smash (which works really well on air attacks) and her forward smash, both which give her extended range. She is pretty powerful and has some strong air attacks (back, forward and up). She can even spike. Her standard special (can't spell the name) gives her both a projectile and counter attack, giving her versatility and allows her to both camp and stop projectile campers. She also is one of the few characters with really powerful throws.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's only a 1v1 at the end for stock, and it is a 4vs up until that point. It's not only the fact this it's a 1v1. It's the rules and what is excepted. Items are off, and most stages are banned. Certain tricks, like chain grabbing, are not used. If there was a tier list for 4vs, it would be very different from the one we have on Smash Boards (if you're curious, I've thought a rough one up).

Chain grabbing not used? What's stopping you to use that outside of tournament matches? Then there's other problems as well with this whole thing. If someone's racking up the kills in any given fight, what do the other fighters do? They gang up on that player. There are just so many uncontrollable factors involved with these matches that it's impossible to balance for four player matches (at least I think).

As for why she is good: Her projectile alone lets her cover a lot of area and has a disjointed hitbox. It also lets her get Smash Balls relatively easy and can steal KO when players are airborne. The projectile allows her to dominate the field unless other players go after her. She can camp really easily with this as she can counter on comers with her up smash (which works really well on air attacks) and her forward smash, both which give her extended range. She is pretty powerful and has some strong air attacks (back, forward and up). She can even spike. Her standard special (can't spell the name) gives her both a projectile and counter attack, giving her versatility and allows her to both camp and stop projectile campers. She also is one of the few characters with really powerful throws.

The projectile is also predictable. Just paying a little attention to all the characters individually would be enough for you to see that start up and dodge if you're in the air. Heck, you can block it when it's about to hit. As for the other pros you mentioned, you can't do much with them if you can't get close to your opponent to do anything thanks to her average speed and light weight. Look at Ganondorf, he has no safe options in any given situation despite that he has some of the strongest attacks. Remember also that ALL projectiles have disjointed hitboxes so it's not like it's anything special.

 

[Pieman0920]

Amazing. I thought I had you figured out but you've set a new standard for misinterpreting the obvious.

I suppose there is something that you're keeping to yourself is flying over my head, but be a gent and say what it is instead of being coy. Heck, your sentance was simply on the amount of Mario stages, which isn't the problem at all. Two theater stage style...uh stages is sort of pushing it, and them both being in the same series is just silly.

Oh yeah, and may I remind all that this is the SSB4 discussion thread, so try not to get too off track with the tier stuff.

 

[Big-Cat]

This is actually pretty relevant to SSB4. For the most part, we're talking about balancing which is of the most important aspects of a game.

 

[Pieman0920]

Well sure, but its pretty Brawl specific right now. Smash 4 will probably have a totally different system, so I'd think more general balancing suggestions would probably be more relivant.

 

[SmashChu]

Chain grabbing not used? What's stopping you to use that outside of tournament matches? Then there's other problems as well with this whole thing. If someone's racking up the kills in any given fight, what do the other fighters do? They gang up on that player. There are just so many uncontrollable factors involved with these matches that it's impossible to balance for four player matches (at least I think).

You have to understand the nature of a 4vs. First, chain grabbing is a horrible idea because it makes you a target. If you keep chain grabbing, whats stopping Captain Falcon from doing a Falcon Punch. Or Ike to do his forward smash. Second, in time, you may not know who has the highest score, so ganging up on someone isn't always going to happen. And beside, why would you go after the best player? Go after the weakest for KOs. And lastly, you balance characters by focusing on their overall traits. 4vs is more holistic and characters are balanced in all attributes. In tournament play, only a few traits are desired, so characters like Meta-Knight, who have all of those traits, become the best.

The projectile is also predictable. Just paying a little attention to all the characters individually would be enough for you to see that start up and dodge if you're in the air. Heck, you can block it when it's about to hit. As for the other pros you mentioned, you can't do much with them if you can't get close to your opponent to do anything thanks to her average speed and light weight. Look at Ganondorf, he has no safe options in any given situation despite that he has some of the strongest attacks. Remember also that ALL projectiles have disjointed hitboxes so it's not like it's anything special.

[/QUOTE]
Again, you have to think in 4vs. It doesn't matter how predictable it is, you have to focus on what three other characters are doing. If two of them are in your face, then you may not notice the big fireball from across the map. Also, character can tend to met in the middle as you have to fight each other. Most rules, even stock, require some form of fighting to win, so slow speed isn't a huge lose, although it can matter in certain situations.

With Zelda's attack, I guess I meant invisible hitbox. The attack has ungodly range on it.

 

[Big-Cat]

We're pretty much in debate how we approach balancing. Chu goes for 4 player matches with items on on any given stage. I go for two players with no outside influences.

 

[Big-Cat]

You have to understand the nature of a 4vs. First, chain grabbing is a horrible idea because it makes you a target. If you keep chain grabbing, whats stopping Captain Falcon from doing a Falcon Punch. Or Ike to do his forward smash. Second, in time, you may not know who has the highest score, so ganging up on someone isn't always going to happen. And beside, why would you go after the best player? Go after the weakest for KOs. And lastly, you balance characters by focusing on their overall traits. 4vs is more holistic and characters are balanced in all attributes. In tournament play, only a few traits are desired, so characters like Meta-Knight, who have all of those traits, become the best.

Because it's so difficult to follow scores. It's basic math. Then again, maybe I'm special in that I can follow small numeric changes like that. You would go after the best player because he has the highest score. You want his score lowered. Considering that he's also likely died the least, his damage should be pretty high where he can be killed.

Wait, how are 4 player matches holistic?

Again, you have to think in 4vs. It doesn't matter how predictable it is, you have to focus on what three other characters are doing. If two of them are in your face, then you may not notice the big fireball from across the map. Also, character can tend to met in the middle as you have to fight each other. Most rules, even stock, require some form of fighting to win, so slow speed isn't a huge lose, although it can matter in certain situations.

With Zelda's attack, I guess I meant invisible hitbox. The attack has ungodly range on it.

Just how often is the situation to occur? Besides, wouldn't players smarten up at some point to realize that Zelda cannot be left alone because of her fireball? Anyway, speed does indeed matter. How about getting to your opponent? In time matches, just imagine Sonic running away from Ganondorf.

 

[SmashChu]

Because it's so difficult to follow scores. It's basic math. Then again, maybe I'm special in that I can follow small numeric changes like that. You would go after the best player because he has the highest score. You want his score lowered. Considering that he's also likely died the least, his damage should be pretty high where he can be killed.

Matches move pretty fast. You have to keep track of every point you've made and lose, as well as one by everyone else. And sometimes, you may thought you got a point, when someone else took it.

Wait, how are 4 player matches holistic?

In tournament play, only certain attributes are needed. All others are irrelevant. So, characters can be well balanced, but can't compete in a competitive enviornment because their traits aren't needed. Take Meta-Knight. Meta-Knight attacks fast and moves fast. He has good mix ups and a good recovery. Even if all his attacks were weaker, he'd still be an A character because he focuses on what competitive players want: a fast characters. Ganondorf is a powerful character and almost all his moves are KO moves, but he's slow. Raw power is not needed in competitive play (as you can see, only Snake and Dedede are really powerful, and the later is up there due to chain grabs, not power).

In 4vs, every trait matters in it's own way, and it really more how you use them. Ganondorf doesn't need to be fast, the stage is small and everyone has to fight. Also, everyone is damaging everyone else. Ganondorf needs the finishing blow (fun factower is probably the best trait in 4vs, at least vs raw speed. Ike is by far the best character in 4vs as he only needs to be right once.) Speed characters are still viable as they can run up to someone like Ganondorf and try to suppress him with speed. So, both dynamics work.

Just how often is the situation to occur? Besides, wouldn't players smarten up at some point to realize that Zelda cannot be left alone because of her fireball? Anyway, speed does indeed matter. How about getting to your opponent? In time matches, just imagine Sonic running away from Ganondorf.

1)running is good for set situation like big stages like Bridge of Eldin or New Pork City. It is also good for getting away or chasing a Smash Ball.

2)Even if they run up to Zelda, Zelda can get away. All three players together may not be coordinated well enough to all get there and even then, they all have to agree. One player may want to just get an item or wait out the fight for his/her chance for a clean KO. It never works out like you'd think.

3)Sonic can only run away for so long, he has to fight Ganondorf, but he is also fighting two other characters, It may be hard to run away on Smashville or Battlefeild. This is why Ganondorf can still get people.

 

[Rizen]

I'm going to change the subject with Bosses I would like to fight in SSB4

Bosses from Brawl I wish to return
Ridley
Meta Ridley
Pete Pirahna
Master Hand/Crazy Hand
Porky

New Bosses
Deathborn (F-Zero GX)
Asgard (Fire Emblem)
Mewtwo
Darknut/Iron Knuckle
Andross
Bald Bull (Punch Out)
A 5th Gen Pokemon

Bongo Bongo
Metal Gear

The lower enemies should come from more than the Mario series and subspace. Lets see Deku scrubs, Stalfose, Space pirates and so on.

In tournament play, only certain attributes are needed. All others are irrelevant. So, characters can be well balanced, but can't compete in a competitive enviornment because their traits aren't needed. Take Meta-Knight. Meta-Knight attacks fast and moves fast. He has good mix ups and a good recovery. Even if all his attacks were weaker, he'd still be an A character because he focuses on what competitive players want: a fast characters. Ganondorf is a powerful character and almost all his moves are KO moves, but he's slow. Raw power is not needed in competitive play (as you can see, only Snake and Dedede are really powerful, and the later is up there due to chain grabs, not power).

In 4vs, every trait matters in it's own way, and it really more how you use them. Ganondorf doesn't need to be fast, the stage is small and everyone has to fight. Also, everyone is damaging everyone else. Ganondorf needs the finishing blow (fun factower is probably the best trait in 4vs, at least vs raw speed. Ike is by far the best character in 4vs as he only needs to be right once.) Speed characters are still viable as they can run up to someone like Ganondorf and try to suppress him with speed. So, both dynamics work.

I agree. However:
Tournament play, 1 vs 1s on a small selection of stages with no items, is what major gatherings focus almost exclusively on. Some characters are not designed for tourneys like Twilight tiers Ganon and Link who are consistently low. People focus on tourney style competitive play and outside game modes are largely ignored. I haven't seen one sponsored smashbros gathering that has anything but 1 vs 1s and teams on a predetermined stage list (excluding friendlies). The next SSBs should be designed around competitive play because that's what the focus is. Non competitive 'party' play like free-for-alls, would not suffer from this.

Zelda's Din's Fire has weak priority, Link can Nair through it. She can't move and spam or recover after using it in the air. It's not great.

 

[ElPanandero]

@Chu

I agree with the 1b1 only needed certain attributes, but 4v is the same, it just uses a different set of skills. To be good on 1v you need to do basically what you mentioned (For simplicity sake we'll leave it at this). But in a 4v the only skills you need are a strong KO move (Characters like Sonic can win very few fights because they lack a point scoring method). Ike can dominate the fights by jumping around and spamming smash attacks, he's bound to hit someone and that someone could poentiall die from Ike's overwhelming power and moderate recovery. On top of that other characters only need to hit a smahs ball to take over a fight... I'm not saying Tourney play is superior (hough I persoanlly prefer the realm of 1v1) I am saying, however, you simply need a different set of selected skills to be good in 4v.

P.S: Skill with items is another. Power characters can hit harder and throw farther.

 

[Deleted member]

I have to go to school soon (It's 6:55 AM and my bus comes around 7:10 AM), so I can't tell you my ideas quite yet.

However, I do predict that it will last three to four years to make, given that each new installment in the series had longer development time then it's predecessor.

 

[SmashChu]

I agree. However:
Tournament play, 1 vs 1s on a small selection of stages with no items, is what major gatherings focus almost exclusively on. Some characters are not designed for tourneys like Twilight tiers Ganon and Link who are consistently low. People focus on tourney style competitive play and outside game modes are largely ignored. I haven't seen one sponsored smashbros gathering that has anything but 1 vs 1s and teams on a predetermined stage list (excluding friendlies). The next SSBs should be designed around competitive play because that's what the focus is. Non competitive 'party' play like free-for-alls, would not suffer from this.

WOW. I hope you never touch Smash Brothers.

Here's the deal. Less then 1% of the total Smash players are competitive players. If we say Brawl sold 9million copies, that is only 90,000 players. Still big, but it is dwarfed by 9 million. Most people play 4vs, not 1v1. A lot of people play with items, and a lot more play on most of the game's stages. They also use a variety of characters. The tier list has never mattered to these people. The other problem is Smash fans hate the competitive community. Part of it is that they are very immature, and you can talk to the more developed communities of other games (competitive of course).

So it begs the question: why would you make the game like that. Heck, wouldn't it be better to focus more on the party aspect of the game. This is what more people play, and at most you'd lose lose 90,000 players who most people didn't agree with anyway. One of the big reason Smash is still successful is because it ignores it's competitive community. Games like Street Fighter have embraced theirs and it only leads to stagnation and excluding low tier players out. Street Fighter 2 was the best selling fighting game until Smash came along, so it's no question Street Fighter fell from grace. What Smash has been doing works.

Zelda's Din's Fire has weak priority, Link can Nair through it. She can't move and spam or recover after using it in the air. It's not great.

riority doesn't matter that much in 4vs as 4 people are playing, not two. Besides, why should Link nair the attack to approach her when he can just perfect guard.

Again, doubt you play 4vs.

@Chu

I agree with the 1b1 only needed certain attributes, but 4v is the same, it just uses a different set of skills. To be good on 1v you need to do basically what you mentioned (For simplicity sake we'll leave it at this). But in a 4v the only skills you need are a strong KO move (Characters like Sonic can win very few fights because they lack a point scoring method). Ike can dominate the fights by jumping around and spamming smash attacks, he's bound to hit someone and that someone could poentiall die from Ike's overwhelming power and moderate recovery. On top of that other characters only need to hit a smahs ball to take over a fight... I'm not saying Tourney play is superior (hough I persoanlly prefer the realm of 1v1) I am saying, however, you simply need a different set of selected skills to be good in 4v.

Again, you'd be wrong.

Sonic actually does quite well from what I've seen (and I have records from Spectate to prove it), even without a Smash Ball. You can do well with quick characters, you just need to nail their KO moves. The skill is in how you use that character. You can do quite well with Sonic as he can do things that other characters can't do as well or at all.

 

[Pieman0920]

Just chiming in here, but technically if the game was deisgned to be focused on a competative level (aka 1v1 with no items), yet still added in several new items, crazy stages, and other things that the more casual crowd would be happy with, would there technically be a problem with anyone?

 

[BG3]

Just chiming in here, but technically if the game was deisgned to be focused on a competative level (aka 1v1 with no items), yet still added in several new items, crazy stages, and other things that the more casual crowd would be happy with, would there technically be a problem with anyone?

I essentially think there wouldn't be a problem with anyone, because both sides are getting considered in that formula. I also agree with MES! about his design route. If the game was centered towards competitive depth and character balance, along with crazy items and stages thrown into the mix, I think many fans of both sides would be happy.

 

[Big-Cat]

Just chiming in here, but technically if the game was deisgned to be focused on a competative level (aka 1v1 with no items), yet still added in several new items, crazy stages, and other things that the more casual crowd would be happy with, would there technically be a problem with anyone?

You would be satisfying both ends of the spectrum. Considering that you want to satisfy as many as possible, this might be the best way to go about it.

@SmashChu
I'll just repost what I said at SRK.

If you want accessibility, the answer doesn't lie necessarily in super easy stuff. You want to know what Street Fighter II had, but the Smash series has never had: An arcade scene. Because arcades require you to come to them to play, there are other people as well that are playing the game. Communicating with people face to face is a completely different animal than communicating with someone online. Because of this, people can learn from each other on a first hand basis which involves visual and kinesthetic learning. Not only that, but there's a strong social aspect to all this. You may not want to play Street Fighter because you like it. You may to play it just so you can hang out with your friends. Unfortunately, this kind of thing is mostly exclusive to Japan and some American arcades these days. Via online somewhere like Smashboards is not the same as you're just seeing words. No one's helping you directly. The only way you're going to get anything like the arcade scene is to go to tournaments and meet people.

To go further with this, go ahead and ask competitive Smash players about the social aspect of the game.

 

[Gallowglass]

Bongo Bongo
Metal Gear

The lower enemies should come from more than the Mario series and subspace. Lets see Deku scrubs, Stalfose, Space pirates and so on.

I don't know about Bongo Bongo because 1. He would be very similar to Master/Crazy Hands and Andross 2. He's only shown once in Zelda series and 3. The seen where he fights was on a round drum and he attacked you around the drum. It would be very hard to simulate that in the 2D world of Smash Bros.

A good boss from Zelda would be Gohma since she was shown in a few games and she can only be attacked in her eye.

As for Metal Gear I'm not one who like to talk about 3rd parties but if Snake stays then Metal Gear Rex should be a boss.

I also totally agree about more lower enemies from other games. I want Zelda, Pokemon, Fire Emblem, etc monsters to fight.

 

[ElPanandero]

@Chu

My apolgies, I remember hearing a while back that sonic was less than spectacular in FFA, but perhaps my source was wrong and/or his FFA meta-game has improved. My bad.

But since both aspects of the aspects of the game are to be considered, is there a way to balance the characters so that they can be used in 1v1 FFA and stay original and diverse from each other?

Chu, my only problem with your ideas are that they tailor to the FFA crowd only (correct me if I'm wrong here too...I seem to be wrong a lot lately), and even non-competitive players like to play in 1v1 scenarios. While the competitive scene is very niche, others do enjoy playing with rulesets similar to theirs, so saying that 1v1 is a niche community would be off (correct me if you didnt intend this, I sort of got this vibe from your posts).

 

[Pieman0920]

I don't know about Bongo Bongo because 1. He would be very similar to Master/Crazy Hands and Andross 2. He's only shown once in Zelda series and 3. The seen where he fights was on a round drum and he attacked you around the drum. It would be very hard to simulate that in the 2D world of Smash Bros.

I agree that Bongo is a pretty unlikely choice due to the first few reasons, especially as there are few more memorable Zelda bosses that have shown up multiple times like the one you mentioned, but the drum thing wouldn't be a issue really. It'd still be rendered in 3D, and you'd probably just walk on the apex of it.

 

[Cyn]

I'd like to see more metroid bosses since they are always for the most part massive with plenty of abilities. I dont know how feasable it would be but it would be cool to battle Quadraxis, Amorbis, Draygon, or even possibly Ghor with his battle armor.

Speaking of Ghor, and the subject of hunters from MP3; I think Gandrayda would be kinda cool as a playable character in SSB4. She could be like the Shang Tsung of the smash universe. But I guess it wouldnt work because of the whole morphing ability would kinda make her a headache to play.

 

[Deleted member]

My Starting Character Roster.

At long last, I finally start reveiling information of my ideas. Starting with the initial character roster:

Rows of characters goes from left to right:

Row 1: Mario, Donkey Kong, Link, Samus/Zero Suit Samus, Kirby, Fox, Pikachu, and Ness

Row 2: Luigi, Diddy Kong/Dixie Kong, Zelda/Sheik, Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, and Ike

Row 3: Peach, Yoshi, Pit, King Dedede, Pokemon Trainer, Mega Man, Bowser, and Wario.

Row 4: Little Mac, Olimar, and Random Selection.

Total amount of character: Twenty-six

Characters with Alternate Costumes: Mario (Dr. Mario), Wario (Overall Wario), Pikachu (Pichu), and Ness (Ninten)

What do you think about it?

 

[Cyn]

its kinda small and feels like its lacking.

 

[Pieman0920]

Unless it honestly takes too long to reveal in one post, I don't see what the point of being reclusive about your character selections is. In addition, some things just don't make sense, like having Luigi and Jigs as starters when its pretty much tradition to keep them secret. (MM too. He should be locked) In any case, I can tell I'm going to end up not liking the final list as it is, since I'm getting the vibe that you don't have many new series, but are instead just expanding old ones. Plus, there's almost no new characters in that starting line up. I mean honestly, if you have something like Krystal or Isaac in there, just make them starters.

Also Pichu does not work as a alt costume for Pikachu. Their body types are different. Ninten is also very indistinguishable from Ness. Plus there are a bunch of other types of alt-costumes that work fine as well that you're not adding, like say DK dressed up as Funky or possibly have his head remodeled to match the classic original DK, Mac with his pink jogging suit, Samus and ZSS in their Fusion outfits, Link as any one of several different apperances, Ike in his Radiant Dawn look, Meta Knight as Galacta Knight, and probably some others I'm not remembering.

 

[Deleted member]

its kinda small and feels like its lacking.

Remember, this is an inital character roster, not the final one. Also, I'm trying to be realistic here.

Unless it honestly takes too long to reveal in one post, I don't see what the point of being reclusive about your character selections is.

Only about around fifty characters actually have a decent chance of becoming official playable characters in Super Smash Bros. 4, this is just the starting roster.

In addition, some things just don't make sense, like having Luigi and Jigs as starters when its pretty much tradition to keep them secret (MM too. He should be locked).

I can see why you think Mega Man should remain an locked character, but I do have my reasons for putting Luigi and Jigglypuff in the starting roster. Ness and Captain Falcon were starters in Super Smash Bros. Melee, so it should make some sense that all four original unlockable be made available in Super Smash Bros. 4.

In any case, I can tell I'm going to end up not liking the final list as it is, since I'm getting the vibe that you don't have many new series, but are instead just expanding old ones.

It shouldn't be that bad.

Plus, there's almost no new characters in that starting line up. I mean honestly, if you have something like Krystal or Isaac in there, just make them starters.

It's better to keep new characters as a surprise then let most of them out like Brawl did.

 

[Cyn]

Unless it honestly takes too long to reveal in one post, I don't see what the point of being reclusive about your character selections is. In addition, some things just don't make sense, like having Luigi and Jigs as starters when its pretty much tradition to keep them secret. (MM too. He should be locked) In any case, I can tell I'm going to end up not liking the final list as it is, since I'm getting the vibe that you don't have many new series, but are instead just expanding old ones. Plus, there's almost no new characters in that starting line up. I mean honestly, if you have something like Krystal or Isaac in there, just make them starters.

Also Pichu does not work as a alt costume for Pikachu. Their body types are different. Ninten is also very indistinguishable from Ness. Plus there are a bunch of other types of alt-costumes that work fine as well that you're not adding, like say DK dressed up as Funky or possibly have his head remodeled to match the classic original DK, Mac with his pink jogging suit, Samus and ZSS in their Fusion outfits, Link as any one of several different apperances, Ike in his Radiant Dawn look, Meta Knight as Galacta Knight, and probably some others I'm not remembering.

what he said